Netflix Pondering Peer-to-Peer Technology For Streaming Video 114
An anonymous reader writes "The folks at Ars Technica have discovered evidence that Netflix is actively researching the possibility of using peer-to-peer technology to stream its videos to its customers. The evidence: a one-month old job listing seeking a software engineer with extensive experience developing and testing large-scale peer-to-peer systems. In addition: Netflix's admission of wanting to 'look at all kinds of routes.' A recent blog post by BitTorrent's CEO explains how, in a peer-to-peer architecture, 'Netflix traffic would no longer be coming from one or two places that are easy to block. Instead, it would be coming from everywhere, all at once; from addresses that were not easily identified as Netflix addresses — from addresses all across the Internet.'"
In other Netflix news, the company has "reached an agreement with three smaller cable companies that, for the first time, will let U.S. subscribers watch the streaming video service’s content as though it were an ordinary cable channel."
net neutrality... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm going to charge Netflix for the rights to transit my network.
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It might be interesting to see where they measure the cap. Would transfers to/from your neighbor on the next IP up count?
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most of my TV is netflix and i'm under 100GB a month
unless you're a family of couch potatoes watching TV 10 hours a day, streaming doesn't use that much data
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Not sure how P2P would work anyway, since it would require storing files locally and that's not the netflix way (or the way of any streaming service) and would probably cause the content providers to freak out at the thought.
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It is entirely possible Netflix would come up with a compensation model that lets people with high bandwidth connections to "voluntarily" participate in an "incentive" program and provide buffering services, traffic origin obfuscation services. But if FTC/FCC enforces strict "truth
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How much of a television show is the same for every show? I think at least 10%. The opening theme song and closing credits take at least 4 minutes of the 43 minutes for each hour long show. Just by allowing a local cache for those times would save a huge amount of transmitted data. Than there are movies like "Blue is the warmest color". I am sure there are plenty of people who have stopped the movie just after the hot sex scenes. I am sure that they will start them over again and rewind them to the be
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How many Netflix customers *can* P2P? (Score:2)
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We use a Roku box, yes, but if Netflix will give us a free subscription I'd host a reasonable peer buffer/streaming service on a Linux box for them. $10/month is probably less than Google would charge for similar in my area.
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Not really. Most embedded devices have just enough RAM allocated for streaming buffers to hold 10-20 seconds of video, max, and in practice it may be less if they are near the limit of their ISP bandwidth. That's hardly useful for a *real time* P2P streaming system.
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Yes, that does appear to be the best way to punish the cable conglomerates!
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Here is some food for thought:
A bunch of cable tv channels were dropped from directv a few times fairly recently. If level 1 providers take a card from big cables deck; by offering offending ISPs just had a taste of dark fiber and all customers jumping ship they might change their tune. I'm sure other ISPs
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I really don't see why the networks themselves were not pushing for this. With massive amounts of "common" content things like netflix can really offload top level traffic by peering.
Well, to begin with both cable and phone companies would (much) rather you paid them for video service separately.
Then there's the fact that P2P takes them out of the position of selling access to you while removing their regulatory fig leaf of citing (inflated) numbers for adding bandwidth.
And that's just the first two.
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Well, cable would like you to subscribe to their cable tv stuff separately, but for video over the internet, they don't want you to pay for it separately, because then the people who don't want it, won't pay for it. what they want is for you to pay for access to the "internet", where by the internet, they redefine it to mean "Comcast Internet" [or whatever company they are], and then every company that wants to be able to access their "customers", they also need to pay Comcast Internet to be able to availa
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netflix should have done it in the first place
as it is now my kids watch the same cartoons and shows and it's the same data streamed over and over
or set up a home CDN type box where you can cache some shows to stream locally on your home network
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Now that netflix has exclusive shows that release an episode a week (and the whole seasona t once) there is going to be burst traffic on specific shows. It is going to really help top level bandwidth if they can offload the most popular content.
Having low level peering on popular content is good for the network as whole.
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That's what I thought at first too -- not so much between DCs (or regions, really -- Netflix is located in the AWS cloud), but rather between the CDN cache boxes (OpenConnect Appliances) located in various ISPs. Right now, they all have to download their data from central locations, but P2P would allow OCAs to chat to each other directly.
However, if you look at the job posting, it mentions part of the job duties being "liaise with internal client and toolkit teams to integrate P2P as an additional delivery
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the draconic powers that provide the content to netflix probably dont like it that you have a copy of a product on your drive even if its encrypted.
Encrypt the video stream with a symmetric cipher and change the symmetric key at each keyframe. Then stream the cipher keys when the video is played, which allows far less data use per repeated view. It'd probably be enough BS to fool the studios into thinking it's unbreakable, as this way it'd be impossible to brute-force the whole thing before Earth becomes uninhabitable.
I guess ... (Score:5, Funny)
"The Net interprets Comcast as damage and routes around it."
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Facebook, YouTube and a few other consumer fodder sites will be accessible at speeds comparable to today, anything else won't.
Can Comcast whitelist all the speed test sites that pop up?
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HBO GO needs this for GoT (Score:5, Interesting)
At least on new GoT nights this would really help.
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HBO uses limelight for a CDN
the people having problems are the one's using other people's logins and are probably on a different ISP and it's probably either overloading the CDN boxes or streaming from the wrong CDN box. i watch GoT via my cable box with no problems
There goes my subscription (Score:3)
Seriously, I already have problems keeping my connection below my monthly cap (60 GB combined up/down). I don't want to share it with other subscribers.
Re:There goes my subscription (Score:5, Interesting)
This is why the stupid caps are stupid. Peering like this would actually offload the data throttling points and be very good at helping your supplier balanace the load. But because of the billing strategy the supplier is actually discouraging things that help them.
*sigh*
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As for your P2P argument, there are been a precedent set by companies using P2P to patch their games that Comcast cutting you off for using P2P would mean they made many video games illegal. Even many console games use P2P for actual communication.
While they could cut you off, I'm pretty sure you could win it in court, assu
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60gb is inhumane. Why would you even bother with Netflix? $8 for a few hours of streaming?
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My down+up cap is 35GB and I still use Netflix. I'm grateful that they added a third, lower-quality setting for us Canadians.
But if they don't offer an opt-out for P2P streaming, I'll have no choice but to cancel my Netflix subscription.
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Nope, there is only two options available: Télébec or no Internet at all.
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Nope, there is only two options available: Télébec or no Internet at all.
Well, look on the bright side. At least it's all in Canadian French so you there's no reason to use your internet, you can't understand it. :-)
Option 3: move (Score:2)
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Re:Oh! (Score:5, Insightful)
So now that the FCC drops net neutrality, Netflix is going to play ball with the ISPs? They've basically been DOSing the ISPs local loops for nearly a decade, blaming the ISPs and now they have the brilliant idea that maybe they should address the insane amount of bandwidth they're eating up? How much do you want to bet they stop being such assholes about peering agreements now as well? Maybe a client that caches data to? Who came up with these brilliant cost saving ideas?!?!
I don't think you understand how Netflix works -- they don't push movies over my broadband connection without permission. Instead, they send me content that I asked for -- which is the entire reason I have a high speed internet connection in the first place. If I wasn't watching streaming video, instead of a 25mbit cable internet connection, I'd have a 3 - 6mbit DSL connection for less cost.
If the cable company can't afford to handle the traffic with their infrastructure, then they ought to increase their rates. I'm happy to pay the cable company a fair price for internet service, but I don't want to pay it in hidden charges for all of the bandwidth heavy websites I use, I want to see exactly how much internet service costs so I can shop around to different providers and to make it more likely that a competitor will step in as the price of service increases.
They've basically been DOSing the ISPs local loops for nearly a decade
Why do you think the local loop was the bottle neck? Netflix speeds increased literally overnight after they paid Comcast to upgrade the internet connection at the peering points, no local loop upgrades needed.
Re:Oh! (Score:5, Insightful)
They've basically been DOSing the ISPs local loops for nearly a decade, blaming the ISPs
BULL, FUCKING, SHIT!!!
The ISPs customers paid for internet access. They sent out requests for packets and got them back in return as the internet is intended to work. Netflix did the exact same thing on their end of the pipe. Netflix and their consumers are NOT responsible for managing how their ISPs provide the service they've already PAID for. If the ISPs oversold capacity and delayed infrastructure improvements then that is their cross to bear.
Here's a simple thought experiment: If Netflix was replaced with 1000 independent video streaming sites producing the same aggregate volume of traffic would it be fair to single any one of them out to degrade service? Would it be fair to extort them all to double dip on both ends of the pipe? As a lazy ISP who would you then blame for your failure to provide the services your customers already paid you to provide?
Re:Oh! (Score:5, Informative)
the internet has been using CDN's and direct peering for years to push video and other data intensive content
netflix not only used to pay a CDN to deliver their content, limelight, but as soon as they let their CDN contract expire they came out with super HD
go google it, it's all on industry sites and blogs. every video provider is responsible for their content delivery and netflix screwed their's up because they spend too much on content.
the way some of the dummy cord cutters are ranting comcast should be running fiber to my house if i decide to set up a cat video business because it's on the internet and comcast is responsible for everything on the internet
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dummy cord cutters
Cable company (probably Comcast/TW) shill spotted.
--
BMO
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i'd rather pay $100 a month for TV/Internet or $50 for just internet and get my current service than pay twice as much because a small minority demand more bandwidth
i'm at 15/1 now and time warner upgrades the network every year or two which is fine by me. just because a few people want to have 4 people streaming netflix in HD at the same time doesn't mean i have to pay for it
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Complaining about "heavy" Internet users causing prices to be higher is like complaining that your new car comes with an owners manual and you don't need one so you should get it dedu
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Really? $0.25/mbit? In what volume? In which market? By who?
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You mean they decided to take their CDN in-house? Which CDN provider does youtube use? I am really curious which video providers actually use external CDNs, it is pretty expensive and inefficient for video streaming.
Re:Oh! (Score:5, Interesting)
If I buy 10 mega bits up and down. I expect the ISP to deliver that or I call it fraud.
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there has never been a consumer ISP service with guaranteed bandwidth 24x7 for every single customer
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Actually, Comcast tech support has told me point blank that I'm guaranteed at least 12M down and 3M up.
The tech is speaking with the voice of inexperience. If he says you're "guaranteed 12M down and 3M up" those are the thresholds Comcast has set for "acceptable" service on your package, which I assume is advertised higher than that. If you're below those thresholds they will begin their normal troubleshooting/field tech process. But they are going to be going by the average of your connection speed, and if a tech cannot resolve the issue they will eventually either tell you to "this is how it's going to be"
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Actually, Comcast tech support has told me point blank that I'm guaranteed at least 12M down and 3M up.
The tech is speaking with the voice of inexperience. If he says you're "guaranteed 12M down and 3M up" those are the thresholds Comcast has set for "acceptable" service on your package, which I assume is advertised higher than that. If you're below those thresholds they will begin their normal troubleshooting/field tech process. But they are going to be going by the average of your connection speed, and if a tech cannot resolve the issue they will eventually either tell you to "this is how it's going to be" or downgrade you to a speed package they can support.
When issues go beyond the modem, and replacing of coax and splitters from the pole and through the house, and up to a "line issue" they start looking at cost of line/node upgrading verses number of subscribers this issue is effecting -- and they may decide it's not worth the trouble.
Yup
3 words....permanent bandwidth exhaust.
I still can't believe there isn't a consumer advocacy group trying to end this practice.
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The tech is speaking with the voice of inexperience. If he says you're "guaranteed 12M down and 3M up" those are the thresholds Comcast has set for "acceptable" service on your package, which I assume is advertised higher than that. If you're below those thresholds they will begin their normal troubleshooting/field tech process.
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Yes, I've known for some time that's the case.
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nor was it in the advertising that they would intentionally slow given types of content down to extort payments from various companies.
For example, if youtube paying comcast? Because there's probably more youtube video flowing through the pipes then netflix.
Perhaps I'm ignorant here, but it looks like comcast is running an extortion racket.
Burst billing (Score:2)
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It needs to be stated in the advertising.
Re:Oh! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Why do I have this urge to put a leech on the cable coming into my house to improve performance?
Don't bother, there's already one at the other end.
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They did pay. Netflix payed Cogent for the amount of data they uploaded. You paid Comcast (or whoever) for the amount of data you downloaded. Your movie data has been paid for -- twice-- and never forget it.
Now, Comcast might have promised you an "all you can eat" unlimited Internet connection, but by Go
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Netflix is also a competitor. A successful netflix means fewer people paying for cable television.
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Everything comes down to the fact that Comcast, Time Warner, Verizon, AT&T, Cox, Charter and the other big ISPs ALL sell both transit (i.e. internet access) AND content (i.e. "TV" whether that be delivered by cable, fiber or otherwise) and are willing to do everything in their power to make sure that you have to keep buying your content from them and not from someone else (otherwise they would become dumb pipes and lose most of their control)
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Wow, I think I just felt two brain vessels pop from the sheer concentration of stupidity and lies.
So you can get your so claimed non-existent caching servers right here
https://www.netflix.com/openco... [netflix.com]
You could also get free peering agreements with netflix, with more info at that same URL.
If offering free peering is being assholes about things however, I'd hate to see the cruel names you throw out at netflix when your own ISP tells you to go fuck yourself with your netflix peer...
If your ISP can't afford th
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So now that the FCC drops net neutrality, Netflix is going to play ball with the ISPs? They've basically been DOSing the ISPs local loops for nearly a decade, blaming the ISPs and now they have the brilliant idea that maybe they should address the insane amount of bandwidth they're eating up? How much do you want to bet they stop being such assholes about peering agreements now as well? Maybe a client that caches data to? Who came up with these brilliant cost saving ideas?!?!
I fully support net neutrality but Netflix is the primary reason the FCC dropped it. I would have much preferred that they passed regulations requiring content providers to work in good faith with ISPs to ensure they were using data in the most efficient way possible (which is how almost everyone else behaves naturally) but instead we had this profit hungry company back the FCC into a corner until they took the easy way out. Instead of sharing the sandbox, it's now whomever has the most moneys sandbox. Thanks netflix.
I pay for internet service with a cap of 500 gigs per month. If I want to use half of that to stream Netflix, that's my business. If my ISP fucks with my access to Netflix without disclosing that possibility when I sign up for service, they are guilty of false advertising which is illegal. Doing away with net neutrality helps give them the legal loopholes needed to get away with it, because it is essentially redefining what "internet access" is.
I see a flaw.... (Score:2)
I used P2P streaming (Score:3)
back in the early/mid 2000's for my radio station when my Shoutcast provider disapeared. I used http://www.streamerp2p.com/ [streamerp2p.com] and there was also later Peercast. The streamerp2p actually worked ok but this came at a time when I lost interest in streaming with alll the laws and OMFG those geeks in their basements with their radio stations are starving the artists hysteria was in full swing. Too bad had my station up to 24 people listening at a time.
I was going to start streaming video using Peercast with their p2ptv but never got around to that.
Metered Interent (Score:2)
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Already been done... Popcorn Time (Score:2)
http://www.time4popcorn.eu/ [time4popcorn.eu]
None of the stupid irritating restrictions of the paid services.
Simple fix (Score:2)
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so the netflix client shares fair and the video starts lagging. the user blames his isp.
Oh No (Score:1)
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Yet another answer for "Why is my hard drive going constantly?"
Don't worry, they're going to name the executable 'System Idle Process'. :-)
It gives them an option (Score:2)
I think this is more a bargaining tool to negotiating better rates at the toll booths. I'm not sure how practical this would be, but it does at least give them an option.
stab ISPs in the eye (Score:2)
Bittorrent for software updates (Score:2)
as mentioned on torrentfreak, some shops use bittorrent for updating servers, for example, twitter and facebook:
According to Tom Cook of Facebookâ(TM)s systems engineering group, the daily code updates for Facebook used to cause a lot of trouble until they discovered BitTorrent.
âoeBitTorrent is fantastic for this, itâ(TM)s really great,â Cook said. âoeItâ(TM)s âsuperduperâ(TM) fast and it allows us to alleviate a lot of scaling concerns weâ(TM)ve had in the pastâ
source: http://torrentfreak.com/facebo... [torrentfreak.com] ....while they MAY be looking for p2p stuff for spreading video around... it is also possible job applicants would just be doing stuff behind the scenes, like theyve been doing elsewhere.
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oh fer fucks sake, slashdot mangled that to all hell.
what year is this again?
Isn't this what multicast is made for? (Score:2)
Fuck P2P, you still have a one to one load in the network. use multicast.
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VUDU was doing real time P2P streaming in 2007, and 1080p P2P streaming since 2008. The technology worked great. The problem was it required devices with HDDs, and so it was the matter of a small startup with limited capital trying to sell their own hardware, which is very difficult. Not to mention the cost of CDB bandwidth and storage dropped drastically in the late 2000's, making the P2P play solution financially rewarding given the complexity and disk space requirements for peers.
The current incarnat
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Firstly, any content Netflix distributes in this way would almost certainly have DRM still applied to it and the Netflix client software would make sure that the end user had the right to purchase that content before playing it (and would still have to pull the keys from the central key server in doing this)
And secondly, they wouldn't roll this out unless they had approval to do this from the entities providing Netflix with content.