Why You Shouldn't Use Spreadsheets For Important Work 422
An anonymous reader writes "Computer science professor Daniel Lemire explains why spreadsheets shouldn't be used for important work, especially where dedicated software could do a better job. His post comes in response to evaluations of a new economics tome by Thomas Piketty, a book that is likely to be influential for years to come. Lemire writes, 'Unfortunately, like too many people, Piketty used spreadsheets instead of writing sane software. On the plus side, he published his code ... on the negative side, it appears that Piketty's code contains mistakes, fudging and other problems. ... Simply put, spreadsheets are good for quick and dirty work, but they are not designed for serious and reliable work. ... Spreadsheets make code review difficult. The code is hidden away in dozens if not hundreds of little cells If you are not reviewing your code carefully and if you make it difficult for others to review it, how do expect it to be reliable?'"
What he's really saying is (Score:4, Insightful)
"I don't know how to use spread sheets properly."
Re:What he's really saying is (Score:5, Insightful)
To be fair, neither to the vast majority of people who use spreadsheets for important work.
Re:What he's really saying is (Score:5, Insightful)
Disagree. I think what he's really saying is "I've had to maintain and develop tools made by people that don't know how to use spreadsheets properly, and I'm fucking sick of it."
"spreadsheets" = computation program (Score:2, Insightful)
ugh...so anger! always with the nomenclature distinctions...this is a stupid approach to a real problem
a spreadsheet is a computer program
that's it...
to criticize the act of entering data and performing computations on that data using computer software is the height of ignorance
I don't know if he's right or not, but this guy's real criticizm, once you fight through his ignorance of the issue is that in his view Pickety didn't show enough of how he got his figures...or more accurately, the TFA author had to look at the spreasheet cell to see what formula it used (gasp!)
so he probably doesn't know how to use the interface of a spreadsheet very well, which makes the act of checking a formula tedious...
then he writes some dumbass article inventing a problem to vent his frustration and reinforce his self-image...
all the while missing the real problem with economics "research" (not Pickety but others do this...) it's called "P-hacking"
P-hacking is the problem in social science/economics research, not using 'spreadsheets'
gah!
Not "important work" (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not "spreadsheets shouldn't be used for important work", it's "spreadsheets should not be used for work that's not suitable for spreadsheets". Tools for the job, and all that.
Code reviewing a spreadsheet (Score:5, Insightful)
Another major issues with spreadsheets (Score:3, Insightful)
Spreadsheets as a software development platform? (Score:5, Insightful)
You're doing it wrong.
Re:"spreadsheets" = computation program (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe you should read it again?
His real criticizm is that spreadsheet software is horrible for any high end work, or with anything you want to share, and he is correct.
"so he probably doesn't know how to use the interface of a spreadsheet very well, which makes the act of checking a formula tedious..."
it is tedious, even if you are an expert and even if the user uses goof practices.
"P-hacking is the problem in social science/economics research, not using 'spreadsheets'"
I don't think you know what P-Hacking is.
Re:Code reviewing a spreadsheet (Score:5, Insightful)
For non programmers modern spread sheet give the user rope, with a noose already premade and a map on where to put your head.
Re:What he's really saying is (Score:4, Insightful)
It needs restating because people forget it all the time.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Spreadsheets as a software development platform (Score:5, Insightful)
Tell that to the entire finance and insurance industry.
You can't audit spreadsheets (Score:4, Insightful)
I figured this out twenty-mumble years ago.
I was doing data analysis in spreadsheets, and realized that I had no way to audit them.
The data and the analysis were all just...there...in the spreadsheet.
As soon as I got a grip on my data, I changed over to C programs that I could test, and document, and validate, and run at any time to demonstrate that input X generated output Y.
Piketty's work will be done for him (Score:0, Insightful)
There's already tons of documentation of Piketty's many mistakes. And his "mistakes" all seem to support his thesis, which is a pretty big pill to swallow.
http://blogs.ft.com/money-supply/2014/05/23/data-problems-with-capital-in-the-21st-century/?Authorised=false
His bigger issue is that his data does not support his eventual conclusion that a wealth tax is necessary. It's a big jump from his data to that extreme solution.
My biggest issue is this: If R > G really trumped individual effort, why are the three richest men in the world (Gates, Buffett, Slim) all self made billionaires? If R > G was such a big deal, I would expect the richest person in the world to be a Rockefeller, or an heir from one of the other 19th century robber barons. Returns on investment have outpaced economic growth for a long time. It's clear that this is not the factor that Piketty makes it out to be. It's one thing to say that more and more will go to the top 1%. But if the top 1% changes every generation (and this is exactly what happens), is that as big of a problem as Picketty and other liberals make it out to be?
Re: What he's really saying is (Score:4, Insightful)
Most people have no idea how to use a relational database.
Re:What he's really saying is (Score:5, Insightful)
"I don't know how to use spread sheets properly."
Or, I realize that just because I have a hammer not all problems are nails.
Re:What he's really saying is (Score:4, Insightful)
Even teaching students matlab would probably be an improvement, but excel is what they default to teaching anyone outside math and CS, building all the coursework around it.
Re:What he's really saying is (Score:0, Insightful)
you can send one to anyone and not have to worry about what they have installed
Except that they need to be running Windows or Mac, with Microsoft Office installed.
What you're really saying is (Score:5, Insightful)
"I never worked in a company with normal people."
I'm guessing you haven't had the pleasure of working in the typical firm where the company's years-old ENTIRE lifetime of work and data is passed around e-mail as a 80MB Excel attachment.
Re:A Formula only an Actuary could Love (Score:4, Insightful)
Wow!
If I was in my early 20's, I'd probabbly think I was 'leet'
Now in my mid 40's, I'd probabbly fire whomever wrote it.
Re:can or cannot compute (Score:4, Insightful)
if it can execute the operation needed for the research then it is acceptable...if not, then no
You could probably write this computational code in a shell script, too. But it would still be a terrible idea. Why? Because it's the wrong tool for the job. Simple as that. It doesn't matter what you can and cannot do, it matters what you should do, and you shouldn't use spreadsheets for anything complicated. It's simply too easy to make stupid mistakes that are difficult to trace and correct (or even notice).
you can't blame a spreadsheet for a poorly devised experiment...you *can* blame a researcher for using an inappropriate statistical model...you *cannot* criticize the method of analysis as long as it is physically capable of the computation
TFA isn't blaming the spreadsheets, he's blaming the people who use them for using them. It's not acceptable to use a tool that works poorly and is highly susceptible to mistakes, and no one should listen to anyone who does so unless that person is damned good at that tool: yes, it is possible that someone is so fantastically good with spreadsheets they can use them for massive data analysis with no problems. They are, however, the exception, and I would generally be inclined to disbelieve the results from anyone who does large work with spreadsheets (simply because of the possibility for errors and the lack of concern for accuracy that using spreadsheets demonstrates). So, the conclusion is that you shouldn't use spreadsheets for important work. You absolutely can criticize an analysis if it uses a tool that is highly likely to introduce errors, and that's fundamentally the point (and it's underscored by the fact that that is precisely what happened in Piketty’s case).
Re:Some things stick (Score:5, Insightful)
I really think Piketty deserves a lot of credit for releasing his "source" spreadsheets on such a substantive and controversial work. Most authors do not. If the critiques turn out to be substantial and extensive, I plan on waiting for a second edition with corrections before investing time in reading it.
Re:What he's really saying is (Score:4, Insightful)
you can send one to anyone and not have to worry about what they have installed
Except that they need to be running Windows or Mac, with Microsoft Office installed.
Actually, LibreOffice/OpenOffice are pretty good at importing and exporting .xls and .xlsx. And considering how incredibly obfuscated^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H complicated the MS OOXML standard is, I'd say that's quite an accomplishment.
You can even import .ods in MS Excel, if you have the relevant plugins installed.
That said, I agree with TFA: don't go overboard with fancy spreadsheets. Keep them simple, for the sake of your own mental health and that of your co-workers.
Re:What he's really saying is (Score:4, Insightful)
No, what he is saying is that it is easy to "write" sloppy code for excel and hard to write good code.
And even harder to review it.
It's similar to the reason a) people moved away from basic, and b) basic evolved to be (duck, please no flame) almost usable (I still do not like it, but recognize that it is possible to write usable code in visual basic).
If you want to criticizes him, picking on Piketty is VERY political, "excel" errors are galore in neocon publications, but of course the FT did not find anything not to love there, but saying that just maybe having a small group of people siphoning off all the cash from society is not sustainable for ever does make them nervous and very desirous to find some scab to pick at...
Nevertheless he is right, it would be very good if decision makers would be able to "read the numbers" and not just "massage the numbers". :)) have a tendency to get you to fiddle the numbers until the taxman aherm the reader sees what you would like them to see...
Something like R or ADaMSoft would drive you to test ideas on datasets and learn from them whereas excel (or calc
Re:Spreadsheets - best and worst thing there is (Score:5, Insightful)
Spread sheets are such awesome tools that they allow non-programmers to create the same problems that noob programmers do while writing code.
Re:What he's really saying is (Score:5, Insightful)
This work forms a major part of my work load don't fuck with it!
Also, it is appropriate. It would be inefficient to develop a proper relational database application on the whim that some set of data points might be useful. Spreadsheets are a proving ground, and important stage in the life cycle of an application.