Man Caught Trying To Sell Plans For New Aircraft Carrier 388
New submitter cyberjock1980 tips news that an engineer has been caught trying to deliver schematics for an aircraft carrier to the Egyptian government. The 35-year-old civilian received security clearance four months ago after working for the U.S. Navy since February. FBI agents made contact with him, pretending to be with the Egyptian government. They struck a deal to buy documents about the U.S.S. Gerald R. Ford, the first in a new line of improved, nuclear-powered aircraft carriers. The man sold four CAD drawings for the carrier, and was later seen photographing another set of schematics. A bond hearing is scheduled for Wednesday.
uh... Suez Canal + Camera? (Score:4, Insightful)
I mean, what?
Entrapping idiot with dubious plot (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, the guy had a security clearance, so I suppose entrapping him can be considered part of the quality control process, but it's still ridiculous; Egypt would get much more effective military use from a dirt airstrip in the Sinai than an aircraft carrier. But hey, the FBI gets to put out a press release claiming they caught a spy! And it's less ridiculous than the time they entrapped half a dozen drunken bums in Chicago into a "plot to bomb the Sears tower", and less dangerous than the time they helped
Re:Entrapping idiot with dubious plot (Score:5, Insightful)
First, how did that guy really "know" his contact was from "Egypt" as opposed to Iran, or wasn't a bag man for China or North Korea?
Even if it had been Egypt, how would he know it wouldn't be passed on to Iran (which has been cozying up to Egypt lately) or China or North Korea?
In any case he volunteered information on the best way to attack the carrier.
He was both willing and motivated to spy, even making suggestions on how to do it and avoid detection.
Your views are nonsense.
Re:Entrapping idiot with dubious plot (Score:5, Interesting)
Expensive as it might be, the first call he should have made would have been to his lawyer. Based on the advice of that call, the second call he should have made should have been to the justice department or to have his lawyer call the justice department to arrange a meeting to disclose that he was contacted and requested to provide information in exchange for money. Let the lawyer make the arrangements and do the talking if possible. After that, let the justice department figure out what to do. If it's a test, then he's off scott-free and might even be able to get the lawyer fees paid-for by the government. If it's real, then there's even a chance that the government will want to provide him with specific information to pass along and they could even let him keep the money.
To attempt to sell secrets under any other circumstances is bound to result in being caught.
Re:Entrapping idiot with dubious plot (Score:5, Funny)
"and they could even let him keep the money. "
Hah ha ha! That's a good one!
Re:Entrapping idiot with dubious plot (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Entrapping idiot with dubious plot (Score:4, Interesting)
People with security clearances are both encouraged and rewarded for doing the right thing.
Nope, they are not encouraged, they are *required* to report these types of activities.
Vulnerability (Score:5, Funny)
Plans sold to the Middle East?
The naval architects are now really going to regret putting in that big funnel that leads directly to the main reactor of the carrier.
Re:Vulnerability (Score:5, Funny)
pfft, it's only six foot across, who the fuck's good enough to hit that?
Re:Vulnerability (Score:5, Funny)
If Egypt has womp rats, we're in trouble.
Re:Vulnerability (Score:5, Funny)
"Many Bothans died to bring us this information."
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Not to me, you insensitive asshole!
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Fuck you, I used to bullseye assholes like you in my T-16 back home all the time.
What in the hell was he thinking? (Score:5, Funny)
So, the moron gets access to classified documents and tries to sell them to the Egyptians?
What was the thought process behind that brilliant idea?
"Hmm, no, the Russians or the Chinese wouldn't want these schematics... The Ehyptians, on the other hand... They're *totally* planning on building some aircraft carriers!"
Re:What in the hell was he thinking? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: Standard FBI followup (Score:2)
Re: Standard FBI followup (Score:5, Insightful)
Except this wasn't some random citizen. This was a guy who signed agreements basically acknowledging his responsibilities to protect that data, and acknowledging that he understood the various conditions of holding a security clearance. When you sign those papers you (knowingly) give up certain rights.
I'm all for railing against the government using terrorism to get it's way, but this particular application makes sense. The fucker should fry.
Re: Standard FBI followup (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Standard FBI followup (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you have ANY fucking idea what is takes to get your clearance in the US, and nearly any other nation?
You have to give permission for them to look into your background. In the paperwork that you sign, you typically agree that you will keep things to yourself, AND that the gov has the RIGHT to follow up on any issues that present itself. I doubt that the FBI contacted this asshole. It is a NEAR CERTAINTY that he contacted somebody and said that he wanted to sell information. Then and only then, did FBI become involved. They may have intercepted initial messages. They may have an insider that told them about this guy. Regardless, once they heard that he was wanting to sell out, they have the FULL RIGHT to go after him.
Once that man agreed to allow this in writing, the FBI only did what it was legally allowed (and possibly bound ) to do. And if he was opposed to these actions, then he should never have signed a document allowing just this.
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Thank you. It's not like the FBI stood out on the street like a stripper next to a secured facility going, "hey big spy man, wanna sell me secrets?" It's even more ridiculous to suggest they'd just up and call some random dude to see if he was willing to sell secrets.
Re:Standard FBI followup (Score:5, Informative)
Entrapment is a really tricky defense. The Founding Father's didn't actually recognize it as a defense at all. The first case where it was used Federally did not happen until Prohibition hit. In pop culture it's usefulness is greatly exaggerated. Most people start thinking "entrapment" when a government agent says "hey let's do a crime" and somebody goes along with it, but entire categories of case simply could not be filed if that was all that mattered. For example, pretty much the only way to arrest Johns is to have a cop dress up as a hooker and offer to sell sex.
Entrapment only happens legally if there's some reason to believe the entrapee would not have even considered the possibility of committing the crime absent the government's actions. In the hooker stings they generally happen in areas where people troll for hookers, so the Courts rule that either a) this particular defendant clearly had a predisposition to commit the crime or he wouldn't have been driving through that neighborhood slowly at that time of night, or b) the governments actions were not likely to entice law-abiding citizens to stop and give a hooker money because law-abiding citizens don't drive through that neighborhood slow at that time; depending on whether that particular court system uses the "subjective" or objective" tests.
In this case the defendant can't really use the defense very effectively because in the Federal system they use method a), which means he'd have to prove he was highly unlikely to take money to sell plans in the absence of a government dude offering money. He was very hands-on once they offered the money, doing numerous things that one would do if one really really wanted to sell national security information to a foreign government (such as creating "an elaborate cyber security system which included several one-time use electronic mail boxes with phantom names").
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I'm not suggesting it as a defence, I'm suggesting that it's very lazy policing to fabricate a false crime and charge for that in the first place instead of going after a real crime. Would the guy have done it otherwise? How the hell would we ever know? Going after real crime is harder, but the objective is not supposed to be to fill prisons, it's supposed to be to prevent or solve crimes instead of adding to the list with faked up ones.
If he wasn't giving the info to a Federal informant he would not have been caught until he started taking pictures of the schematics. Even then he may not have actually gotten caught, if he could think of a good story. At which point our equivalent of the Death Star plans, with their one weak spot (he told this guy precisely where to hit the ship to sink it and kill everyone aboard), are already in the hands of some dude who knew Arabic, said he was Egyptian government, and had $3k.
Which is why we have an
Re:Standard FBI followup (Score:5, Informative)
Two differences from standard criminal charge of entrapment. First, counter intelligence personnel (CIA, FBI, DOD--whatever) are allowed to set up operations like this when government issued security clearances are involved. Second, entrapment is specifically when the entrapper targets a person and convinces that person to do something he would not normally have done. If there were suspicions about this person, I'm guessing he had raised flags already, thus negating that aspect of entrapment.
I'm a big support of Snowden. Much less so of Manning. This guy deserves whatever he gets.
Re:Standard FBI followup (Score:4, Insightful)
Moridineas: "I'm a big support of Snowden. Much less so of Manning. This guy deserves whatever he gets."
I think this is the big telling point. Snowden is very controversial. Manning, the controversy is mostly about the magnitude of the punishment. But no one is seriously in favor of people just handing out secrets to foreign governments. Wherever you stand on the Snowdometer, this is just not that.
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Which raises the question of whether the crime would have happened at all without the carefully tailored fantasy of selling to a friendly party. If we were worried about the Egyptians bombing our carriers we wouldn't have given them F16 fighter-bombers this year.
This sting stinks on multiple levels. Such pointless games in the Soviet Union provided fodder for many show trials to show the strength of the State. Why are we doing it?
Re:Standard FBI followup (Score:5, Informative)
All the guy had to do was say "no".
Failure to report the contact would also get him in trouble.
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Police can even pose as a passer-by, encouraging someone to steal the car, or as a chop-shop owner offering no-questions-asked cash for cars.
In these cases, the legal system is punishing people for their antisocial behavior, just as with crimes that don't involve stings. Even if the crime actually occurred in a controlled situation, the perpetrator still fulfilled the legal requirements for culpability: They were aware that what they were doing was against the law, and they did it anyway of their own free w
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Disclaimer... I am hugely drunk to an unreasonable degree which nobody my age should be.
I am all about personal liberties, and feel that our government has no business at all looking into the life of any citizen without great reason to do so. I do see a very large difference between inciting crime in a normal citizen and inciting someone with a security clearance.
Pushing a citizen into selling or manufacturing narcotics for instance is hugely different from getting someone to publish engineering details wh
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if he has been issued special clearance for military intelligence, then he is subject to the uniform code of military justice, not the US civil code. Hence, he will NOT get a jury, he will NOT see a civilian judge, and the only lawyer he will see will be attached to the JAG. He be fucked.
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Very good points.
I can't speak to how well protected those plans were. But it's usually painfully obvious to anyone working in those secure facilities just how unsecure they are. Worst of all you probably wouldn't even need to be secretive. Just getting people to challenge an individual doing something slightly out of the norm is difficult.
Re: Standard FBI followup (Score:4, Informative)
This base canard again? To anyone paying attention, the only civilians on scene were the guys in the van. Which the guys in the chopper had no way of knowing they weren't connected to the guys carrying AKs and RPGs towards the marine component several blocks away.
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Counter intelligence folks do this all the time. Part of getting (and maintaining) a government security clearance. No chance of entrapment.
Re:What in the hell was he thinking? (Score:5, Insightful)
So this is basically and [sic] artificially generated crime, made by the FBI.
If you are given a US security clearance - after a significant background investigation and detailed indoctrination about exactly how important that it is that you do not tell anyone - not your wife, not your buddies, not your colleagues who don't have the same clearances - about classified material... and then someone claiming to represent a foreign power approaches you about providing classified information to them... and you even take more than half a second to say no, you should not have been in that job in the first place.
This isn't luring someone into adultery, or petty theft, or embezzling or even facilitating Marion Berry smoking crack. This is a dude straight up offering SENSITIVE US DEFENSE INFORMATION to a known frenemy (depending on who's in power this week) FOR MONEY. There is no scenario in which you are a Good Guy who just got entrapped into something you didn't really mean or didn't think was going to hurt anyone.
It's sorta like how I can be sympathetic to men whose jealous significant others hire PIs/escorts to hit on them and lure them into adultery to see if they're susceptible to cheating. But this is more like trying to bait someone into hiring a hit man to kill their wife to see if they would go for it... If you even consider it, buddy you are not a Good Guy and deserve what you get.
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Transmitting a secret to unauthorised parties is commonly referred to as "stealing" it.
Given that this deprives the original holder of the secrecy which his information previously possessed, I think that's a perfectly acceptable use of the verb.
Ordered List (Score:2)
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Probably saw Snowden doing it and thought "he's mans a celebrity this could be my ticket to the bigtime to".
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Snowden tried to go through legal means and when that failed told everyone at the same time.
This guy was in for the profit which is the true american way. I am waiting for him to get a medal from congress now.
He-Man is a celebrity (Score:2)
He-Man ( http://www.mattycollector.com/... [mattycollector.com] ) is a celebrity.
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He doesn't care who wants to build (or sabotage) the ship - only who would pay for that information. In his position, traveling to Russia or China would've raised a dozen flags; likely he expected a third party, not exactly pro-US but less than an arch-nemesis, to buy the info presumably to trade it to Russia or China for a profit or favors.
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Damn, it took a lot of posts before somebody figured that out.
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Re: What in the hell was he thinking? (Score:3)
Last few words in my comment:
... to buy the info presumably to trade it to Russia or China for a profit or favors.
In other words, Omar al-Kebab may have no interest in bombing the new boat, but ISIS sure might, and China would love to do a bit of the old catch-up, and the Russians definitely see the strategic value. So Omar will pay nicely, hoping to make a profit.
Egypt largest navy in the region, 7th in the world (Score:4, Informative)
Egypt has the largest navy in the Middle East and Africa, and is the seventh largest in the world. They were the first to successfully deploy missiles against other ships.
Re:What in the hell was he thinking? (Score:5, Insightful)
Four CAD drawings are not worth getting excited about. When the number gets above 4 million, we're probably talking some serious information about the carrier.
This sort of reminds me of WW2 spy movies - evil nazi spy gets hold of plans for latest carrier or battleship, and is chased by intrepid All-American Hero.
Trouble is, the plans for a WW2 carrier or battleship wouldn't fit into something as small as a railroad boxcar, much less a briefcase.
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Note that he was taking photos of other drawings to send along to his "egyptian" buyers. Given that he thought a photo of a document was the best way of sending a copy along, it's unlikely that the "drawing" was a full 3D assembly.
And a full 3D model of the ship would have been measured in terabytes....
It wasn't just 4 drawings ... (Score:5, Informative)
"He also described a detailed plan to circumvent Navy computer security by installing a "bug" on his restricted computer that would allow him to copy documents without drawing attention.
According to the affidavit, Awwad provided the undercover agent four computer-aided design drawings of the Ford and told him where to strike the vessel with a missile to sink it.
The two men later arranged for Awwad to make a drop on Oct. 23 in Hampton. The affidavit said Awwad removed $3,000 in cash from a camouflaged hole and put in its place a 1-terabyte external hard drive and two passport photos he thought the Egyptians would use to make a fraudulent passport. Agents found six more drawings of the Ford on the hard drive.
10 drawings and a plan to get a lot more data.
Re:What in the hell was he thinking? (Score:5, Funny)
Well, they are into pyramid schemes.
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Really. I would have wondered what in hell the Egyptians were going to do with them. Of all the shit for the Egyptians to purchase I'd figure the last thing they'd blow money on would be a frigging CAD drawing of a nuclear powered aircraft carrier. It always amazes me how stupid engineers are when it comes to anything at all outside their own little world. Egyptians buying plans for a carrier? Hell no.
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I fear a world in which the FBI has their own aircraft carrier.
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An Air Force officer told me that an Air Force Academy cadet was once asked by a US civilian what service he was in. His response was that he was in the Bolivian Navy. The AFA uniforms are blue, slightly different in blue from that of US air force commissioned officers' uniforms with different emblems, etc.
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The Cadet probably picked the Bolivian Navy because Bolivia has not had an actual coastline since 1883, but it does have an Navy. They're still bitter about that War of the Pacific thing.
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Re:What in the hell was he thinking? (Score:5, Interesting)
See also the actions of the US Navy on the lakes in the war of 1812 and earlier.
Re:What in the hell was he thinking? (Score:5, Funny)
Don't you know anything about modern warfare? Geez. Nerds these days.
Re: What in the hell was he thinking? (Score:2)
Entrapment is lazy policing (Score:5, Insightful)
It's just some dangerously ambitious prick deciding to shoot fish in a barrel to get a list of achievements - that's the one with the "thought process behind that brilliant idea" - present a stupid get rich quick scheme to catch the stupid.
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Re: Entrapment is lazy policing (Score:2)
Re:Entrapment is lazy policing (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem is not necessarily place of origin, but whether you can be turned. You can be the most patriotic person on the planet, but you'll be denied if there's a non-negligible chance your close relatives overseas can be imprisoned/tortured unless you agree to spy for the host country. I wouldn't take it personally.
come to dinner, not to the reactor (Score:3)
I'd have you over for dinner, and you'd be welcome to bring your friend from China.
Also, I regularly deal with cyber attacks from China. I know the Chinese government is attacking us and seeking new and better ways to attack us. I know they have. Chinese students and businessmen working for them do intelligence, so while they're welcome to come to dinner, there's no reason to show top secret stuff to anyone from China. The risk each time may be small, just as the risk of not wearing a seatbelt o
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If we want people to put the pieces together we need to give them access to them.
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Re: Entrapment is lazy policing (Score:2)
You don't need to build a carrier (assuming you're even able to replicate the bleeding edge of U.S. naval tech with just blueprints), or even have plans to sabotage one, to benefit; you can simply trade with those who can (Russia? China? ISIL?) for profit or favors.
This bozo knew better than to contact the Russians or the Chinese in his position, but figured he wouldn't raise any flags by going with a third, "neutral" party.
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The documents do not describe why Awwad was targeted.
There's still a possibility that Awwad expressed his intent, even if through a pseudonym. I wouldn't presume that the feds make random cold calls to see who bites - the targets would gossip about it before long.
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A lot of people are potentially for sale with the right offer (even infamously the man the carrier is named after who took a very large bribe from the In
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No other country on earth would be interested in making a $12B, 100,000-ton aircraft carrier, but there are several who would love to know where its vulnerabilities are.
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This is looking like someone lazy locking up the greedy. With careful selection of the type of sting you could probably catch well over a quarter of the adult population that way.
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Stings like this have another utility--counter-intelligence. Let's say you are approached by someone asking you to commit espionage. If you feel obligated to report it because there's a chance this is a sting/loyalty test, the government's job is made much easier. Is it worth destroying lives to accomplish this objective? Hard to say without weighing the assets being protected.
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Entrapment is lazy policing (Score:2)
Don't get distracted (Score:2)
You've been fooled into equating this with catching the agent of a foreign power who is going around looking for people who have access to aircraft carrier plans. Nothing so useful has happened, they've only caught some guy that will sell out in very specific circumstances. With the right circumstances they could probably lock up half of Virginia, all without preventi
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Only a matter of time (Score:2)
Pssst, wanna buy a nuke?
Egyptians? (Score:2)
Really. The Eqyptians?
Surely there're countries that'll pay far more for this information than Egypt? And be able to do far more interesting things with it.
Re: Egyptians? (Score:3)
And contacting any of those countries in his position would trigger a lot of alarms. But contacting a third party who's not an arch-enemy might, but would be VERY interested in selling this info to bigger people might not, or so this idiot may have thought.
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But contacting a third party who's not an arch-enemy, but would be VERY interested in selling this info to bigger people, might not, or so this idiot may have thought.
Bond, James Bond hearing (Score:4, Funny)
Not the sort of hearing you want to attend. The spectre of something bad will be hanging over you.
I hate these misleading statements... (Score:4, Insightful)
... caught trying to deliver schematics for an aircraft carrier to the Egyptian government.
No, he was caught trying to deliver schematics for an aircraft carrier to the FBI. Since he thought he was trying to deliver them to the Egyptian government, that makes him a scumbag, but let's not pretend an actual crime that would have occurred without the FBI's action has been thwarted here. They didn't step in and stop something bad from happening, they just found some guy who likes money more than ethics and made a good headline out of him. Arguably doing so maybe has some deterrent effect, but don't misrepresent what happened or blow it out of proportion.
Re:I hate these misleading statements... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I hate these misleading statements... (Score:5, Informative)
Really good guide to what entrapment is [tumblr.com]
Re:I hate these misleading statements... (Score:4, Insightful)
... caught trying to deliver schematics for an aircraft carrier to the Egyptian government.
No, he was caught trying to deliver schematics for an aircraft carrier to the FBI. Since he thought he was trying to deliver them to the Egyptian government, that makes him a scumbag, but let's not pretend an actual crime that would have occurred without the FBI's action has been thwarted here. They didn't step in and stop something bad from happening, they just found some guy who likes money more than ethics and made a good headline out of him. Arguably doing so maybe has some deterrent effect, but don't misrepresent what happened or blow it out of proportion.
What if he sold anti-aircraft missile designs to a terrorist organization, who then used those designs to shoot an airliner out of the sky that had your family in it? Would you still think that this was being blown out of proportion?
Someone with a security clearance could do that and a whole lot worse. In the process of agreeing to receive the clearance, employees also agree not to do that, in writing, under penalty of law. They also agree to be surveilled while using government resources. So it is completely acceptable for a government to test their employees to see if they are susceptible to treason or espionage.
This guy should be tried and if found guilty, put to death or locked away for life.
U.S.S. Gerald R. Ford (Score:5, Funny)
.
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Ford got a lot of shit for pardoning Nixon and the dismal economy (which wasn’t his fault) but at least he was a naval combat veteran who served on an aircraft carrier in WW2. Naming a carrier after him makes a lot more sense than naming one after Ronald fucking Reagan.
Darwin Awards (security department) (Score:2)
This is like a weird case of the Darwin awards; i.e., being so stupid you don't know that Egypt is not going to be interested in replicating the latest state of the art in nuclear-powered aircraft carriers.
Two Very Serious Problems Here, Among Others (Score:4, Insightful)
Since I haven't seen anyone point this out:
1. According to the article, the Awwad idiot actually went through with delivering classified info at the 2nd "meeting." That means he successfully stole classified from the secure facility in which it was kept.
Now, just because he sold N files to the agents, doesn't mean he only removed N files from the secure facility. Furthermore, he delivered them to agents at a hotel. Which means "out there" in the wild! So before he was arrested he could have actually had >N files copied onto an indeterminate number of his personal net connected computing gadgets, where the info could have wound up stolen by real enemies by malware bots looking for just this sort of thing, or perhaps he sent backup copies to some place where we will never know but someone else does.
In other words, the FBI agents instigated an ACTUAL breach of classified info into the wild, which is a REAL threat to national security. The info could very well already be in the hands of the Russia, China, etc.
It is the FBI fuckers who should be sent up the river!
It is the purpose of counterintelligence to protect ACTUAL national security above all else, which means not allowing classified out into the wild. They could have simply revoked Awwad's security clearance and fired him when they found him willing to commit an act of espionage, but before he actually went through with it. This would have actually protected national security, by preventing the disclosure of classified which is the whole point.
Instead they risked and caused an uncontrollable leak of classified, just to bag some idiot so he'd go to prison and the agents would get good performance reviews. These people are unethical sociopaths. It is immoral to not seek to PREVENT someone from committing a crime if you know they are willing and considering it. A sting like this should be a felony. Not to mention that now each one of us is going to have to pay a share of our life's work just to imprison the Awwad dimwit for a very long time.
2. There is something very wrong with the Navy's handling of classified, if Awwad was able to get it out at all.
In my experience, fortunately not with actual classified which I want nothing to do with since I have ADHD-like forgetfullness and work "outside the fence", but I've been trained about its handling at a national lab, it would be or should have been exceedingly difficult to steal classified in the first place.
Awwad should have never been alone with classified. It should have been on computers which, if they are networked at all, are connected to only a fully air-gapped restricted network. Even the fucking fibers can't be within like 6 feet of those from another network! The USB and other ports should be sealed off with epoxy. Swapping of classified containing hard drives to/from vault and workstation is done under direct supervision by some classified accountant. It might even be that the workers must be at least in a team of 2 or more, I'm not certain though. Workstations which process classified live in a "vault-like room." Stealing this stuff is not easy! Unless their security is very broken, it should be nearly impossible without getting caught.
Look at it this way: If the guy was stupid enough to try to sell the info yet smart enough to actually succeed at stealing some, then the Navy's security is a joke. How many have stolen information that didn't get caught?
Allowing classified to get out of it's secure facility was a collosal fuckup!
If this type of sting, resulting in the actual removal of classified from secure facilities is common practice, then the people guarding our nation are at a minimum incompetent, and at worst they are the actual traitors for being willing to risk causing actual harm to national security for the sake of their personal careers.
There is little doubt that the enemy we should truly fear is within.
Re:The new threat (Score:5, Funny)
Stolen carrier plans + 3D printer = death
Yeah, death to the 3D printer. Or perhaps the FedEx guy trying to deliver 10 billion spools of plastic to your door.
Re: The new threat (Score:2)
Re: The new threat (Score:5, Funny)
A plastic battleship would be unstoppable.
Four red pegs should do it.
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If we ever see the transcript of the wire that the agent was wearing, I suspect it will go something like this:
"Umm, well, it's best if the torpedo hits the hull. If it goes in front of it or behind it, it doesn't work as well."
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Re: Another FBI entrapment case (Score:2)
Re: Set Him Free (Score:3)