Plastic Roads Sound Like a Crazy Idea, Maybe Aren't 183
schwit1 writes with news that the Dutch city of Rotterdam is looking at partnering with a company called VolkerWessels to test a prototype plastic road for safety and durability. "They envision pulling waste plastic out of the oceans, and then processing it into prefabricated sections of road with integrated utility channels and drainage. The composition and structure of the plastic makes it more durable than traditional asphalt, and VolkerWessels estimates that their plastic roads should last about three times as long as traditional roads." The roads are manufactured at a factory, and then hauled in a mostly finished state to where they'll end up. This could dramatically reduce the time during which drivers are inconvenienced by road construction efforts.
Crazy? (Score:5, Interesting)
I've read the assertion that plastic roads sound like a crazy idea elsewhere, too. I don't think this ideas is crazy at all. Why would it be? We currently pave roads with asphalt which we get from crude oil. It makes sense to me that if we process the crude (or some other oil or source of hydrocarbons; say, recycled plastic) we can make something that works similarly well or even better.
Re:Crazy? (Score:4, Informative)
Normally...
Plastic is slippery when wet
Plastic is brittle when cold
Plastic melts in heat
Plastic is flammable
Plastic is a more uniformed structure while asphalt is more jumbled. This jumbled makes it more complex and backups its own downsides.
Re:Crazy? (Score:5, Interesting)
That's a pretty good description of asphalt, composed of tar and aggregate.
Re: Crazy? (Score:3)
Re:Crazy? (Score:4, Interesting)
Sure, but after over 100 years of designing plastics with a wide variety of properties and applications, I don't see why we couldn't make plastics that can be (part of) road surfaces, too. If I understand correctly, the performance in wet conditions still has to be tested, but the temperature tolerance is already wider than that of asphalt. Combating the slippery when wet problem has been done before, too (e.g. the anti-slip coating on bath tubs or fiberglass yachts), although I am not aware of any efforts specifically to support cars and tires.
Re:Crazy? (Score:4, Interesting)
But even if it doesn't work out for pavement, we could always use the plastic to make small modular bricks with snap-together lugs that we could quickly assemble into gas stations, convenience stores and rest areas. Why, if you think about it we could make whole theme parks from this stuff.
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I almost did a woosh!
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Plastic only becomes slippery because of its smooth texture. Simply get rid of that and it provides adequate grip. It's simply that smooth is cheap and usually desirable for aesthetic reasons.
Some types of plastic are more durable than tarmac, even at low speeds. Some can be extremely heat resistant, e.g. cooking utensils.
Flammability is worse for tarmac too, compared to plastics designed for fire safety.
I'm sure they have thought of all these things. To assume otherwise would be foolish.
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There was a thing here in LA where a wildfire burned up to a major freeway then jumped the freeway, setting on fire a couple cars stuck in traffic. Imagine if the road itself caught on fire?
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Plastic is slippery when wet
The slippery of a substance is based on it's surface finish. Plastic is no more or less slippery than any other substance, it all depends on how it's finished. Much like the stupid solar roadway idea plastic and glass can both be made to be quite rough.
Plastic is brittle when cold
Current asphalt roads have various levels of polymers added to suit various environmental conditions. I can tell you now, unless you formulate your road specifically for cold weather (in which case it likely melts in warm weather), asphalt is equally brittle.
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Plastic is a more uniformed structure while asphalt is more jumbled. This jumbled makes it more complex and backups its own downsides.
Then mix an aggregate into the plastic. We already do this on a smaller scale with glass and carbon fibers, and the re
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but will they be able to make the roads do loops like my hotwheels race track?
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By that logic I should be able to improve the condition of the road by dumping a gallon of oil on it.
Except your logic is seriously flawed.
By using your own purposely confusing wording, we DO already improve the condition of roads by dumping gallons of oil on them. Have for decades.
The details you are ignorant about:
- Patching holes in asphalt roads with more asphalt is exactly what is done to improve them.
- Asphalt is indeed made from oil.
So the parents logic is sound, only your limited knowledge of the world is flawed, and trying to nix the idea based on that flawed logic combined with purposely confusi
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Behind my house growing up was an unfinished gravel road. Every year or so, a truck would drive down it and spew some sort of oil mix on it. If you drove on it shortly after, your car would be a mess of oil spatters. After a day or two, it hardened into a sort of poor-man's asphalt. So, yes, you actually can vastly improve the condition of the road by dumping a lot of oil on it.
I've heard an experimental variant of this is actually spreading used canola oil on the road. Apparently, the only downside is
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Expansion / Contraction? Damage? (Score:4, Insightful)
How will these plastic road segments hold up to the kinds of expansion and contraction roads undergo during especially hot or cold days?
Will they be have to be melted together to prevent cracks between segments for weatherproofing against rain, snow and ice? (Water expands when frozen, remember)
And how well will they stack up against some idiot driving along on a rim with no tire?
Will they be fireproof? One flaming car wreck and you've got a wall of fire that goes on for miles, spewing toxic smoke.
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These questions remain largely unanswered. It is mostly just an idea, I wouldn't even call it a concept just yet. There is more information in dutch here: http://www.kws.nl/nl/innovatie... [www.kws.nl]
They claim it is weatherproof and can handle temperatures from -40 to +80 degrees Celcius, but I cannot find any science to back this up. They haven't worked out how to link the segments yet. No word about damage repair, but they do mention they want to use it for bicycle roads first. On the subject of fire they say they a
Until the tanker catches fire... (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyone see what just happened in California? Can't imagine the practical road damage and amazing environmental damage of tons of plastic on fire.
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You haven't seen a lot of plastic on fire, and besides that point the point where asphalt catches on fire is much higher than most (all?) plastic.
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Because the world would come to an end if a 20 meter section of road burns.
Sounds crazy because it is (Score:4, Interesting)
Possible problems (Score:4, Insightful)
Unless these road pieces are chemically altered in some way, traction on plastic roads would be awful. And shards of the roads that break off under wear and tear are going to be blown out into nature, poisoning the environments they land in over time.
I'm all for cleaning out the oceans, but this seems like moving toxic, nature-insoluble trash from one environment to another. Permanently ridding ourselves of the plastic is the right path.
Re:Possible problems (Score:4, Informative)
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http://www.kws.nl/nl/innovatie... [www.kws.nl] (dutch)
They will experiment on how to add traction and say they might add sand or gravel if they can't solve this problem with just plastic. On the topic of degradation they claim that plastic is being used outdoors a lot already without problems. I am not sure if the circumstances are comparable though.
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Unless these road pieces are chemically altered in some way, traction on plastic roads would be awful
Couldn't they have come up with some ridging or some pattern of grooves?
I'm all for cleaning out the oceans
I bet some stupid manipulative marketing asshole/bitch just made that up.
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"Couldn't they have come up with some ridging or some pattern of grooves?"
I know! A slot down the center of each lane that would engage a fin projecting from the bottom of each car. This would allow high-speed banking on curves and even, just for fun, the occasional inside loop.
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Couldn't they have come up with some ridging or some pattern of grooves?
Rubberized tracks seem to have really nice traction. It might be difficult to come up with a combination that has both traction and durability.
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I'm all for cleaning out the oceans, but this seems like moving toxic, nature-insoluble trash from one environment to another. Permanently ridding ourselves of the plastic is the right path.
That seems like a waste when we are constantly producing new plastic all the time. Why not recycle the plastic so that we don't have to use more oil making more plastic?
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Banning the production of new plastic (with "critical national defense" as the limited exception, of course). That would probably mean that superfluous usage of plastic for worthless crap like Happy Meal toys would stop altogether. Other more "important" items like shopping bags, trash bags, baby bottles, Solo party cups, etc. would go up in cost, reflecting the true life cycle cost of a product.
That will never happen, however, until a crisis that affects the everyday Joes happens. "What do you mean there
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First off, another poster noted plastic is usually significantly less toxic than asphalt. I mean, you probably consume food and beverages from plastic containers all of the time--how would you feel about drinking from an asphalt cup? There might be environmental dangers, but this would be due to the mechanical properties of the plastic (does it break apart into particles or shards?), not the chemical properties.
Which brings us to my next point: "plastic" i
Some data missing (Score:3)
Sounds like a great idea. Lets hope the details will add up.
TFA:
The things that aren't addressed by the available information are safety and cost.
Nor is winter & studded tyres mentioned. Studded tyres eat through asphalt & the stones in it quite quickly. How about this plastic?
Perhaps this is only for warm climates. Rotterdam seems to not average sub-zero temperatures even in February, so I guess studded tyres are not used there? Any duch person to confirm?
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Studded tyres are actually illegal to use here in The Netherlands. We don't get a lot of snow and in the high density areas the roads are salted everytime there is a notion of snow. Unlike most other european countries it isn't even required to use winter tyres during the winter.
Re: Some data missing (Score:4, Funny)
They should make the road Lego compatible. Studded tires would work then.
Bad idea, though it may somehow work! (Score:2)
Imagine a vehicle fire. A plastic situation road creates fuel right there! If a round is fired at a suspect on a chase, and this chase ends up with an accident, I can't see how a plastic road can help matters. Does it?
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Not going to pull plastic out of the ocean (Score:4, Interesting)
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The harm most people are concerned about is mammals and birds. Pieces of plastic that are 'the size of a grain of rice' - don't pose any risk to mammals and birds. They also don't pose a risk to the majority of marine life.
The author claims the devices will 'break really quick' - devices engineered to be submerged in the ocean constantly have different design constraints than devices that are for capturing wind energy. There is no reason to believe that a properly designed structure will be prone to fail
Morrison Bridge (Score:5, Informative)
Even if we assume that they have magically found a way to get and recycle the plastic garbage in a few bazillion cubic meters of ocean, they'll still have to do better with the end result than experiments so far. The Morrison Bridge in Portland OR has a skid resistant polymer deck that is already coming apart after just a couple years. I wouldn't write this idea off a priori but there major problems to overcome.
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Does it? I hadn't noticed.
traction (Score:2)
I am trying to think of a type of plastic that can handle millions of cars and tires, yet doesn't wear down - or - if it does wear down, maintains traction and grip.
As a motorcyclist, the idea of this road makes no sense, and is a bit scary. But if they can figure out the traction thing, let's give it a try.
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I am trying to think of a type of plastic that can handle millions of cars and tires, yet doesn't wear down - or - if it does wear down, maintains traction and grip.
As a motorcyclist, the idea of this road makes no sense, and is a bit scary. But if they can figure out the traction thing, let's give it a try.
The sun will probably destroy it before the tires do. Sunlight breaks down plastics.
Seeming better idea, plastic in asphalt (Score:3)
Shamelessly lifted from the comments on the iEEE article, is a link to India using plastic as binder in asphalt [scind.org].
This seems like a much more practical step towards using lots of plastic in roads, and the article hints that it may help prevent potholes which would mean the road would be usable longer. They've already been testing it on real roads for a year.
I just can't see how the equivalent of potholes in a pure plastic road are anything but disaster - a ton of water gathering in the conduits, and any fragmentation would lead to very sharp shards on the road, or large areas just failing wholesale.
smart roads (Score:2)
I think this is a great idea, but we really need to make to lay the foundation for the next generation of computer controlled vehicles.
Do I know what that is? Nope, but I think it would be reasonable for computer systems on my car to be informed immediately if there is a problem ahead, whether it be damage to road detected by sensors in the plastic road itself or simply congestion to inform my vehicle to take an alternate route.
Perhap road sensors could detect the provide feedback to rooba-plows as well an
Wouldn't put pipes in there (Score:3)
The space for cables is a good idea but I wouldn't put pipes in there, at least in colder climates as they would freeze.
I think this would be pretty good for parking lots and sidewalks to start with since you don't seem to need to lay down a thick gravel subsurface.
Glass roads (Score:3)
But I thought all of our roads were going to be glass electricity generating ones!
Why not make self replicating plastic harvesters? (Score:2)
That way the just go collect the plastic and make more of themselves until the ocean is clean.
Of course we may run into the Slylandro problem.
http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/Probe [stack.nl]
solar roadways (Score:2)
This is where it's at: http://www.solarroadways.com/i... [solarroadways.com]
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Good grief, that scam again?
A better headline (Score:3)
A better headline would be, "Are plastic roads the future?"
Paving with bricks (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Paving with bricks (Score:4, Interesting)
In .nl, bricks are only used in older side streets that see little traffic (i.e. they're there because they've been there for a long time and it hasn't been necessary to resurface the road). New construction favors tarmac. Tarmac is cheaper to put down as it's all done with giant machines, while bricklaying takes a lot of manual labor. Tarmac is also safer because you have more grip, and it's a lot more comfortable to drive on.
This plastic road would be easier to put down than bricks because it comes in large sections you can crane into place.
It'll never work in the U.S. (Score:2)
The way roads are done in the U.S.:
1.) Award contract to the lowest bidder.
2.) Lowest bidder was the lowest bidder because they plan on using substandard materials.
3.) Resulting road falls apart in 4-5 years (or less).
4.) Go to 1.
There is no desire or advantage to build roads that don't need to be rebuilt very few years. The Free Market(TM) and your (and my) tax dollars at work. Everybody wins (road contractors, car dealers, repair shops, etc.) but the people who have to drive on the crappy roads.
ridiculous (Score:3)
This is ridiculous.
First, the expansion/contraction of plastics is generally MUCH much higher than concrete/pavement.
Second, the "prefab road sections" are absurd; nobody builds roads like this already (of any material) because they would be ruinously expensive (not because of the raw material costs), nothing has come close to the level of durability needed to handle 50-ton trucks repeatedly for decades, and extremely hard to deploy.
Third, the overwhelming majority of plastic in the ocean is 0.1mm or smaller (http://theconversation.com/in-the-ocean-the-most-harmful-plastic-is-too-small-to-see-35336) - the cost/magnitude of scale to sieve this from the oceans is mind-boggling.
Seriously, Dutch, I love you - but that's a mind-blowingly dumb idea.
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Not that this specific technique won't need extensive testing, but chances are that on occasion you've already driven on a road using plastics as a base material. Geofoam is regularly used in road projects throughout the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
http://www.komonews.com/news/l... [komonews.com]
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http://en.volkerwessels.com/en... [volkerwessels.com]
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Conventional (asphalt or concrete) roads aren't specified to last fifty years - so why would you require plastic roads to do so?
Not to mention that prefab sections of rail track (handling 100
Cover it with rubber from tires (Score:2)
Nonsense. It already works in Denmark... (Score:2)
Might work (Score:2)
If plastics which would otherwise go into a landfill or are already contaminating the environment can be used, if it has similar/better performance characteristics to traditional road materials and if its is a similar/cheaper in price then of course. But there are a lot of ifs in there.
Studded snow tires! (Score:2)
This will be great!
My studded snow tires will get much better grip on plastic and ice, than rock and ice in the winter. And they'll wear less!
until it floods (Score:2)
Then the sections of road will float away.
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Plastic would be more resistant to potholes then normal material.
Being water proof and is a better insulator.
However what I see as a big problem is the ground shifting then knocking out a whole road unit with a plow. Unless the decide to keep them heated so you don't need to plow
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Roadways start by digging a wide, shallow cut. That cut is lined with some form of crushed stony material or sand, and harder and larger layers are built-up until truly solid layers are applied. In some places they use concrete and coat it with a layer of asphalt, in other places it's just mu
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Having to heat the road itself completely negates that, as there's a LOT of road out there.
Actually heating the road is easy, with a little creativity. I was going to suggest adding plutonium to the road mix, but the same end could likely be achieved more cheaply by just using nuclear waste. Solves the waste problem at the same time.
Of course, there may be some undesirable side effects....
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"Actually heating the road is easy, with a little creativity. I was going to suggest adding plutonium to the road mix, but the same end could likely be achieved more cheaply by just using nuclear waste. Solves the waste problem at the same time.
Of course, there may be some undesirable side effects...."
Indeed, it would trigger the Iran anti-neutrino detector from 2 articles father up and send the the brute-squad on the way.
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Why would you want waterproof roadways? Wouldn't something that would allow drainage make the road safer?
They recently did my little street and alley with some special material/process that looks just like regular paving but allows for drainage. The standing water and black ice conditions have completely gone away. I don't know anything about the new material besides the fact that it's water permeable, because I asked one of the workers about it last year. I d
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Yeah, that's where I am. They also did the aprons from the alley to the street and a couple of the streets encircling my block. Probably because the alderman lives just a few doors away.
It feels like Baton Rouge today. But really wasn't Chicago originally a swamp way back when DuSa
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Yeah, but you have andouille, cold Tin Roof beer and Joe Barry on the jukebox.
https://youtu.be/QcriNmPyY-Q?t... [youtu.be]
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Just take a wild guess.
Hint: It worked for bumpers, why not for roads?
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Hint: It worked for bumpers, why not for roads?
Bumpers are all but useless. My '68 Caprice had bumpers you could use to knock down light poles at 30mph. Not that I would have ever done such a thing. Sober.
Re:Potholes? (Score:5, Informative)
Pothole in plastic? Pour molten plastic in? Buy a new section of road?
Potholes form in asphalt when water settles into slight depressions. The water softens the asphalt, and then traffic deepens the depression, allowing more water to settle. Freezing and thawing makes it even worse. The plastic road in TFA is perforated, so water drains into a series of tubes. So potholes should not form in the first place. Even with asphalt, potholes can be greatly reduced with proper grading, and by adding fiber.
But I don't think this plastic road is a serious proposal. They may build a few hundred meters as a PR stunt. You cannot collect plastic from the sea cost effectively, and you aren't going to make a good road surface out of random trash.
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Potholes also form when the road cracks and water gets in, then freezes. The asphalt, on concrete, buckles slightly then a snow plow catches it and rips a chunk out of the road.
Here, all the potholes appear after a heavy snow.
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That's no quite how it works here. The water inflitrates the asphalt, then it freezes during night or automn, winter and spring, then the small cracks enlarge, then the cycle restart with water, freezing point, ice, enlargment, etc. Then some chunks detach from the road, then more water, etc. That's how potholes form here. I wonder how a plastic road will perform into winter conditions and with abrasive stuff, melting salt, snow plows, etc. Will plastic flex under heavy weight in normal conditions? How abou
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Our roads pothole because enough traffic over time stresses the material, and the expansive soil expands and contracts, causing the road to fracture. Since it doesn't rain much here either, the roads are not designed to drain as well as in other places (ie, no steeply banked crown) and the water finds its way down into the cracked road surface. As vehicles co
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Collection doesn't have to be cost effective, it's environmental clean up that is necessary.
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But that's where the internet goes! Will we have a moister, more humid (and therefore more prone to rusting) internet if this technology is implemented?
Re:Potholes? (Score:5, Interesting)
I live in New England. We have lots of freeze-thaw cycles during the year. It's rare that you see a proper frost heave in a road (and you certainly know it when you see it). By FAR the most road damage is caused by inexpert patching of the asphalt where the surface needs to be cut for utility work. When inexpertly patched, the surface is no longer remotely planar, and the unevenness right at the (and caused by the) patch increases the wear exactly where it can do the most damage. So, shortly, the patch needs a patch. Which is inexpertly done, and the cycle continues until you get a stretch of crud for surface and the local municipality shells out big bucks to have the road re-surfaced entirely.
Compare this to Southern California (where I lived for a number of years) where the road patches after utility work are 100% as smooth as the original surface. With your eyes closed, you cannot tell that you've driven over a patch. The patch (and especially the transitions from original surface to patch, and back) receives no more or less force than the original road, so there's no focus of wear, and it lasts a very long time.
It baffles me why we can't make proper road patches in New England. It's clearly possible. And I really can't believe that the people working to patch roads in Southern California are that much more talented, so it's either a technology issue, lack of managerial directive, or an out-and-out conspiracy to have a never-ending amount of road resurfacing work.
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LA has a freeze cycle. It could even be hours of freezing temperatures [latimes.com] in some areas, sometimes....
Re: Potholes? (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.theoceancleanup.com... [theoceancleanup.com] is the curent page for the project Boyan Slat started that got some coverage back arround 2013 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sci... [dailymail.co.uk]
Re: Potholes? (Score:2)
Thanks.
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Re:Plastic roads are for cars. (Score:5, Funny)
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... Give me back my caps!
Re:When one fails to learn from history ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Here in Arizona we are laying a lot of rubber roads: more durable, quieter, and no more mountains of old tires. It's like driving on carpet. But in accidents, they can catch fire.
Re:When one fails to learn from history ... (Score:5, Informative)
I've also noticed they're not nearly as durable as the hard concrete surfaces they replace. There are stretches on most of the oldest coated roads like the I-17 around the Durango Curve and on the US-60 where it diverges Eastbound from the I-10 where the coating has been scraped off in patches, and there are other sections where the coating has split above the control joints in the underlying concrete, making the road noisy again.
I won't deny they're beautifully quiet when new, but they just don't age very well.
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Nothing like fifteen tons of uncontrollable truck sliding at freeway speeds toward a stupid motorist that cut-off the truck...
I am cool with this. Darwinism in action. My only concern is for the truck driver. :)
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Re:When one fails to learn from history ... (Score:5, Informative)
As this is an article about Dutch roads. Most highways here have a top layer of asphalt; this is a mix of materials which include: rubber, plastics, stone, zand, and a tar like binding agent called bitumen.
It is designed to make highways be able to drain water, have a rough structure for grip on tires and to reduce noise pollution, and handle the temperature and humidity changes of the Dutch climate.
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeer_Open_Asfalt
There are some pictures of the top layers of a Dutch highway. And lots of text in Dutch, but no link to an english page.
As I mention that asphalt layer is only the top 7 cm of a highway, below it are:
- 3 layers of 6 cm each of asphalt/concrete slabs
- 30 cm of unbounded foundation
- 70 cm of sand
Below this a foundation of Styrofoam blocks may be used on very soft ground to reduce sagging.
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The assumption is that the plastic from the oceans can be successfully recycled to the right quality product.
Not to sound anti-environmental but these issues are often far more complex.
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Think what you will of the people employed to maintain the asphalt roads and highways you use every day but they make quite a bit of money, especially considering the level of education required for that kind of work. Lower the total number of jobs required for road construction and maintenance and suddenly the businesses those formerly well paid construction workers patronized will feel the pain.
Don't worry, like all great ideas that will cost less and employ fewer people, this will cost more and employ more people.
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Yes, placing all utilities under the road instead of through the road (as it is today) is the right thing to do.
Only in those areas with a frost depth of zero inches: Parts of far South California, New Mexico, and Florida.
frost map [decks.com]
Unless by utilities you are excluding sewer and water and including power and cable (which primarily run overhead in most locations).