Volkswagen CEO Issues Apology Over Emission-Cheating Software 301
cartechboy writes: Last Friday we learned that Volkswagen got caught cheating on emissions testing via software programming. The punishment? It could get slapped with up to $18 billion in fines. While the company has yet to admit to any wrong doing, the CEO has now issued a formal apology and said the automaker will cooperate fully with any and all investigations. It's issued a stop-sale on all new and used TDI vehicles until further notice. VW's currently in talks with the EPA and the California Air Resources Board in regards to these allegations. It's also ordered an external investigation of its own into the matter. Whether criminal charges will be filed is yet to be seen.
That'll teach you... (Score:4, Insightful)
When Toyota had the audacity of becoming number 1, their CEO got dragged in front of the US congress about some acceleration issues.
VW just made the mistake of becoming number 1, and suddenly we discover they've been cheating at emissions. Expect a congress hearing and lots of demands for sanctions.
Was there a punishment when GM recently had a major oops?
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Was there a punishment when GM recently had a major oops?
Nope, their whole ignition switch failure was swept under the rug with only about 20 million vehicles recalled, and a paltry 900 million dollar forfeiture.
Re:That'll teach you... (Score:4, Insightful)
"Nope, their whole ignition switch failure was swept under the rug with only about 20 million vehicles recalled, and a paltry 900 million dollar forfeiture."
So here we are talking about 500.000 cars instead of 20.000.000 (40x less) but the fines could reach 18.000.000.000 instead of 900.000.000 (20x more).
Overall German-based WV may be fined 800x more per car than US-based GM.
Quite interesting.
Re:That'll teach you... (Score:5, Insightful)
GM only killed people.
VW committed a far worse crime. They offended the regulators.
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Actually VW will have killed people with this.
Air pollution is actually a massive cause of death in the US, particularly in LA.
Re:That'll teach you... (Score:5, Informative)
Was there a punishment when GM recently had a major oops?
Sept. 17, 2015: GM will pay $900 million to settle the U.S. Justice Department case, which charged GM with wire fraud and scheming to conceal a deadly safety defect from U.S. regulators, according to a criminal information filed by federal prosecutors ..... GM separately Thursday said it planned to take a $575 million charge in the third quarter for settling nearly 1,400 lawsuits arising from the defective switch. [wsj.com]
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This VW diesel thing is about deliberately cheating on emissions tests, not some unforeseen defect. I'd be very surprised if the fine was less
Re:That'll teach you... (Score:5, Insightful)
cheating at emissions
This wasn't just some simple "cheating" . . . this was large scale "fraud". If the Feds in the US wanted to, they could RICO VW. That would essentially put them out of business in the US. But VW has a puny market share in the US, when compared to other foreign auto producers in the VW or Audi price range. So the government in the US is probably thinking of what the collateral damage would be for VW car dealerships, independent mechanics, etc. VW got the worst possible penalty that anyone can levy: the VW stock got mauled. Their brand has been emasculated.
But the worst is yet to come. Germans take their reputation for great engineering very seriously. The German government is now pissed off at this as well. For Americans, this would be like a team cheating in the Super Bowl. Germans and their cars, have a relationship like Americans do with their guns.
The CEO of VW can start cleaning out his desk, and a bunch of executives will be headless in the coming weeks, as well. That serves them right. However, in typical corporate fashion, VW will end up firing ordinary, innocent workers, who had nothing to do with the fraud at all.
Re:That'll teach you... (Score:5, Insightful)
The CEO of VW can start cleaning out his desk, and a bunch of executives will be headless in the coming weeks, as well. That serves them right. However, in typical corporate fashion, VW will end up firing ordinary, innocent workers, who had nothing to do with the fraud at all.
Written by someone who does not understand the on-going boardroom drama at VW.
The VW Group CEO (Winterkorn) recently came out ahead in a boardroom battle in April. I have to wonder if his Winterkorn's opponent (Piech) knew that this was coming.
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That would essentially put them out of business in the US. But VW has a puny market share in the US, when compared to other foreign auto producers in the VW or Audi price range. So the government in the US is probably thinking of what the collateral damage would be for VW car dealerships, independent mechanics, etc.
VW also manufactures vehicles in the US, so if they were to go out of business in the US, that plant would have to close.
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Of course all that by far the majority of people care about, will they finally go after the psychopathic executives that scored big bonuses by doing this or will those frauds just laugh as their foolish investors get punished for the fraud of the executives. How about finally for once, custodial sentences for the executives who made the decisions and implemented the fraud.
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CRAP! I have one of those. (Score:5, Interesting)
I suppose I'll have to get my firmware updated which will cut my performance down. I could decline the recall but then I probably wouldn't be able to pass the emissions here in CA to get my tag renewed.
Goodby 42 MPG.
Re:CRAP! I have one of those. (Score:4, Funny)
Based on summary - you will pass emission test easily:)
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Based on summary - you will pass emission test easily:)
No, I'm sure the emission testing folks will know about this car and will make sure it has the recall installed before testing.
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I'd like one too.
I can't find anything about this.
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Up next VW cars fuel economy gauge's found to be incorrect......Wait that's really a thing?? http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-ec... [edmunds.com]
Crap I thought I was going to be able to make a prediction here but it already happened darn.
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This is correct. I have never seen 42 MPG in actuality. I drive 75-80 mph on the highway so my mileage is more like 34 mpg. I can go over 500 miles on one 14.5 gallon tank of diesel which is pretty darn good for a car which has excellent performance and handling. Unfortunately my bladder won't go 500 miles so I have to stop at least twice without buying fuel for each time I do. I feel guilty about using the facilities so I usually buy a big diet coke which just fills my bladder sooner. Oh what to do???
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Well, with "Paleo" in your name, I'm quite guaranteed you don't have a clue what you're talking about. As if you had a fucking clue what "Paleo" really means.
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This is correct. I have never seen 42 MPG in actuality. I drive 75-80 mph on the highway so my mileage is more like 34 mpg.
Yup. At that speed, most of your power is being used to push air out of the way. Add another 10 MPH, and you should be hitting the 20's.
http://sciencelearn.org.nz/Sci... [sciencelearn.org.nz]
It's pretty dramatic.
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When did California start requiring smog checks on diesels?
AFAIK, since 2010 [ca.gov], CA has required diesels newer than 1998 model year to go to smog check stations. I think they just check the OBDC and to a visual inspection (EVAP and smoke).
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I think only diesels older than 1990 (don't quote me.) are exempt. My 1989 Dodge diesel truck is dirtier than heck and doesn't have to get tested for anything. I have to get my VW tested every 2 years. My wifes gasser is exempt for 5 or six years I think. It's only a year old though. I just renewed my tags so I have a year to figure out what to do. Maybe somebody will hack a cheater program or I can move out of state which is looking like a better option than living in the People's Republic of Taxifornia.
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All the neck-beard hipster blather ...
This is funny. I always thought that "neck-beards" and "hipsters" were pretty much polar opposites. I had no idea that a single person could be both.
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Neckbeards are commonly associated with hipster stereotypes and Internet addicts who frequent websites like 4chan and Reddit.
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What I suspect is that they were running these cars hella-rich on acceleration to give them the power that people wanted, and possibly running them lean while maintaining spe
Re:CRAP! I have one of those. (Score:5, Insightful)
Companies Auditing their own code? (Score:2)
Do they do it?
Does this at least mean.... (Score:5, Insightful)
If not, nothing was learned here. Either by accident or intentionally, it will happen again, eventually.
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My understanding is that the car actually does have better emissions in a certain "mode", which is enabled when various parameters hint that testing is being performed (IE the car is on a dynamo). Inputs cited are steering changes (if the steering wheel doesn't budge as you gradually go from 0 to 65 MPH, then it's probably on a dynamo), barometric changes (sensitive to even the slightest changes in elevation or as airspeed increases, which, again, are static when on a dynamo), etc. That is one of the reas
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what are the criminal charges? (Score:3)
No I didn't RTFS but exactly what would the criminal charges be in a case like this? There was something similar a while back in which some car maker used a distinct programing settings in the ECM which allowed fuel economy to be inflated but shipped a different version so the consumer didn't complain the car was a turd in performance. As far as I know, the only thing that came of that was a change in economy measurement standards and revised estimates.
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That one with Caddy in the '90s? No criminal charges. They programmed the ECU to recognize the test cycle and modify the programming to game the test. Similar to the issue here, but not exactly.
They shipped what was tested. If your daily driving happened to match the test cycle exactly, it was theoretically possible to trigger the hidden code, but in practice, it probably never happened.
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Why (Score:2)
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To Quote "The Wrath of Kahn" (Score:2)
Saavik: On the test, sir... will you tell me what you did? I would really like to know.
McCoy: Lieutenant, you are looking at the only Starfleet cadet who ever beat the no-win scenario.
Saavik: How?
Kirk: I reprogrammed the simulation so it was possible......
Saavik: What?
David Marcus: He cheated.
Kirk: I changed the conditions of the test; got a commendation for original thinking. I don't like to lose.
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Apology Accepted! (Score:2)
Blaming American Engineers (Score:5, Informative)
In the German press, the CEO is already painting this as a bunch of rogue American engineers doing this.
One problem: If there was any engineering in the US, it was probably only to tweak the existing calibrations. It's pretty rare to see the actual source to ECUs, which is mostly unchanged over long periods of time. Most of the adjustments made are in the calibrations - a checksummed block of mapped constants in the ROM image file where the symbolic map has been exported by the compiler.
As somebody who has actually authored calibration tools used in the automotive industry, and worked on some of the software used to provide version control, I have a pretty clear idea of what is going on here.
In this case, the code itself - the algorithms used in the ECU, specifically disabled emissions controls (either by an alternative set of calibrations, or by skipping entire routines) when in Emissions Test Mode. If it's using an alternative set of calibrations... it still demands an answer to why it would need a second set of calibrations to begin with.
Sadly, the press and many of the investigators involved in this will probably not understand the techical aspects of this, and why this is a fundamental cheat that could only have been created by the team that engineered the ECU.
Re:Blaming American Engineers (Score:5, Informative)
I call BS on that. There is no way that a rogue engineer would do such a thing on their own - they would only do it because management wanted them to.
For that matter, you can't even sneeze in the auto industry without there being a paper trail. Once the investigators start digging they will find all kinds of stuff about the requirements and specifications documents that preceded the actual software changes. You will find the actual engineers who did the work, and you will find the people who signed off on it when the work was done...
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Doesn't necessarily mean that it's upper management in Europe though...could be the management of the American design team.
I'm very curious to see how this plays out. Wonder how much of the truth will come out.
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Wonder how much of the truth will come out.
None. If the investigation turns up something, the information will be sealed. Nothing will make it to you and me about who ordered the alteration, and how it worked. I suspect that EPA tests will be declared National Security issues before it's all over. Nothing gets shared with us.
Re:Blaming American Engineers (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, because of work that I have done in the past. I have seen the level of process audits that the automakers require of their suppliers, and I have seen the kind of process management software that is used to track requirements/specifications/changes and all the rest of that. That being said, I have no recollection/memory of how VW does things.
When all of this is in place, you can't change a single line of code without it being justified, specified, written, tested, and finally signed off on, and *everything* is traceable. Could one hack the database? In theory, I suppose, but doing so would elevate this to a whole new level of fraud, and if you screw it up and corrupt the database then the whole company could be dead in the water.
Google "Automotive SPICE" to learn more..
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It's not impossible that the team assigned to get it to pass US EPA testing could have done something like this without the knowledge of upper management.
As someone with an engineering degree, I'm saddened that they would do something this shady. Professional Engineers are supposed to act ethically.
And seriously...did they really think nobody would ever find out?
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"Sadly, the press and many of the investigators involved in this will probably not understand the techical aspects of this, and why this is a fundamental cheat that could only have been created by the team that engineered the ECU."
There's no problem understanding it even without the slightest knowledge about ECUs. In fact, the problem would be if by any remote chance the ECU team was not involved.
Prosecutor: This a basic IF...THEN...ELSE. (if in emissions test then do this, else do that). IF...THEN...ELSE
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Someone tell me how software can "disable emissions controls"? I mean, I don't think there is an "emissions control" thingy that the software says "stop working now", is there?
TDI issues first HSFS now this (Score:2)
I recently passed over getting a TDI in lieu of a 2.5 gas. My initial reason for passing on the TDI was the known issues with failure of the High Pressure Fuel System (HPFS). A quick google on TDI HPFS will confirm, also see below. I live in california and am not a fan of the California Air Resources Board CARB and having to pay a premium for emissions components over other states - try $500 for a new CAT vs $200 in other states.This is a major blow as TDI were a nice alternative to Hybrids, especially wit
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Gas is under $2/gal here in the northeastern US.
18 billion dollars, good luck with that (Score:5, Insightful)
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$18 billion is a ridiculously high fine. Has any company been charged such an amount? This is not a fine, it's more like a company death sentence. VW made $14 billion profit in 2014, so no way can they afford or are liable for something as high as $18 billion for one error.
I'm Soooooory! (Score:2)
The apology (Score:5, Informative)
Full text: "We're sorry we got caught!"
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Story tagged: crocodile tears.
Why not an economy mode and normal mode (Score:2)
Why didn't they just include the DEF injection system and offer an "economy"/low-power mode to drive without DEF, but with increased performance with the DEF reservoir filled? It's a whole lot better than having a diesel vehicle which refuses to start when you're out of DEF and the local filling station doesn't have any in stock.
The lesson here (Score:2)
What were they thinking? (Score:2)
Have we learned nothing from the quack3.exe fiasco?
Apology.. I want a full refund on my TDI (Score:2)
should we assume VW are just the ones got caught? (Score:2)
it's amazing what people think they can hide in code, on a chip, and in the wiring to that chip.
i am not saying they're all cheating on emissions..
i assume it's all wide open to "gaming"..
is it not?
Re:Another 40 years before we see popular diesel c (Score:5, Informative)
The Audi A3 is one of the models implicated in this scam. It appears that it includes any VW and Audi vehicles that don't have a urea injection system.
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that don't have a urea injection system.
I'm guessing that peeing into the gas tank isn't an option.
VW CEO echos the words of General Beringer... (Score:2)
Re: VW CEO echos the words of General Beringer... (Score:2)
Just make sure it's not connected first.
Re:Another 40 years before we see popular diesel c (Score:4, Interesting)
It appears that all diesel VW and Audi vehicles do have a urea injection system, but some only enable it during tests.
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You must be confused: the Nazis would never stoop so low as to lie about fuel economy...
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The only remotely affordable passenger vehicle with a diesel motor, and bam. What a drag.
If the affected cars on the road are recalled and reprogrammed to improve emissions all of the time, it'll feel like quite a drag indeed.
Re:Why does the U.S. hate diesel so much? (Score:5, Interesting)
US standards are pretty strict in comparison to Europe.
Part of the reason VW got caught was that the people doing the testing were looking at European diesel cars, found they polluted more than they should, and decided to test US cars for comparison.
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Most trucks are diesel and emit visible carbon smoke that riles people up. They think that it is polluting the air more when in actuality the carbon in the smoke is a solid particle and gets precipitated out of the air quickly. It's the stuff you can't see that is the problem.
My VW doesn't emit anything visible at all BTW and you cannot smell the diesel characteristic of many big trucks. The NOX may be a problem but I have yet to suffer from it at all and I HAVE asthma.
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They think that it is polluting the air more when in actuality the carbon in the smoke is a solid particle and gets precipitated out of the air quickly.
the particles also lodge in people's lungs, causing a whole host of respiratory issues.
Re:Just a firmware fix? (Score:4, Funny)
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The firmware changed to pass while it was being tested, so it seems the fix will be to leave the car in 'test' mode permanently. Apparently performance will suffer when that happens, but that doesn't really matter when you're stuck in a line of traffic on the freeway.......
It's a compression/peak flame temperature thing. With the high compression of a diesel engine, max economy comes at the expense of NOxide emissions.
Here is a really nice explanation of the parameters involved. It''s an old pdf scan of typewritten pages, but very clear and understandable
http://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel... [anl.gov]
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I'll gladly hand you my left nut if that thing really gets 70mpg in daily use. The European mileage tests are absolutely silly.
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"The European mileage tests are absolutely silly."
Well, they probably are a bit stretched as, no doubt, are American, but I for one have to say that my 15 y-o car behaves as advertised (and, of course, YMMV): it was published as making 10.4 l/100Km mixed and mine makes 10.2 l/100Km (so even slightly better).
Re: What? "We're sorry we got caught"? (Score:5, Insightful)
It depends a lot on your driving. If you do a steady 100 km/h on the highway, your mileage will be excellent. At 130 km/h, you may use about 20% more, and can more than double if you take the road for a race track.
Maybe your driving is more economical than most.
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You will almost certainly not achieve that, you'll get closer than you would in America- it helps a lot that European gallons are 1/3 bigger.
Re: What? "We're sorry we got caught"? (Score:2)
There's no european gallon, everything is metric.
There's a UK gallon though that's larger than the US. But anyone not using the metric values is not sane when it comes to fuel consumption figures.
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actually, one of the suspicious things about the recalled VWs is that even though they claim 49 mpg on the sticker, many have observed 60 mpg in the real world. 70 would not be that much of a stretch.
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European test are indeed stretched. The makers have had too long to figure out how to "cheat" on the tests. (Optimize for test conditions based on imaginary 70s traffic.) Hopefully the new testing cycle soon to be introduced will give better results.
As an example, a couple of years ago I drove my moms "super efficient" VW Polo 3 cylider Diesel on a 5000km around Europe. According to the manual that car can achieve 78mpg. The best the trip computer ever told me was 67mpg, while I was doing 50mph for 15 minu
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And yes, it's easily possible to drive the fuel consumption up to 10 l/100 km (about 25 mpg)
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What is the appropriate language to use when declining a left nut?
Virtually the same protocol as the right nut.
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Re: What? "We're sorry we got caught"? (Score:2)
The Swedish mile is 10km.
But the UK and US miles are the same.
Re:What? "We're sorry we got caught"? (Score:5, Insightful)
Obamacare was based on Romneycare from MA, which was created by the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank. So you are saying Obama is a secret Republican? If so, then I agree completely. He wages war like a Republican, he deports immigrants like a Republican, he drills for oil and gas like a Republican, even in the arctic, and he goes after whistleblowers and journalists just like a Republican. So I think you've got something there.
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Massachusetts already had a very high percentage of its population insured, unlike the whole of the nation. There wasn't much consternation about it because it didn't rely heavily on one group to pay or subsidize the insurance of another group. Even so, it hit hard times when the economy took a nose-dive and the Obama administration had to bail it out, lest it be used against passing the ACA. Romneycare also failed to reduce ER visits as promised, ER visitation actually increased. It also led to difficu
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It also led to difficulty for new patients trying to find primary care doctors and led to longer wait times for a good number of patients.
more people attempting to go see their doctors is a GOOD thing
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And don't forget, passed in the middle of the night. On Christmas Eve. Marathon session where no one is allowed to leave the capitol building. Ink still wet; it was not hours old at the vote. And passed without a single Republican vote.
And yet, still, Republicans are to blame. Somehow, for something. Filibusters! Arrgh...
Obviously, you can't hear yourself.
Re:What? "We're sorry we got caught"? (Score:5, Informative)
There's a reason that Pelosi, Reid and Obama had to ram that law through using procedural shenanigans
Indeed and that reason is the not so latent racism in the GOP base over a black president and the lock step opposition to *anything* he proposed. Every major piece of the ACA was *favored* by the GOP, just not 'Obamacare'.
Also note, the meeting with all the GOP players on the night of Obama's inauguration to 'oppose anything he did'. They knew that if they cooperated at all, Obama would get credit for saving the country from depression and become a transformative icon of history; and of course discredit the GOP agenda for decades to come.
So they played politics with basically everything. The extreme of which was Sen. Cruz voting against funding for Hurricane Sandy relief money...and then demanding quick aid when Texas was hit by floods. His argument? The pork in the Sandy Relief bill. While laudable policy wise, playing political football with people's lives to make a point is exactly what's wrong with the GOP these days.
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Indeed and that reason is the not so latent racism in the GOP base
Oh, please. You're embarrassing yourself.
Every major piece of the ACA was *favored* by the GOP, just not 'Obamacare'.
No, not even CLOSE to "every" major piece. That new federal law was opposed by the people that didn't vote for it over everything from smaller details (like new taxes on medical devices) to fundamental world-view type stuff (like forcing people to engage in business with insurers whether they want to or not ... and don't bother trotting out the apples/oranges comparison to liability insurance for choosing to operate a car). The bill's critics wanted to block it bec
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You're of course implying there wasn't ample opportunity for Cruz to oppose pork barrel spending some other way without directly impacting the victims of a natural disaster. Uhuh, sure.....
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That new federal law was opposed by the people that didn't vote for it .... like forcing people to engage in business with insurers whether they want to or not
“With regards to the individual mandate, the individual responsibility program that I proposed, I was very pleased that the compromise between the two houses includes the personal responsibility mandate" - Mitt Romney, 2006
In the video released Wednesday night, Mr. Romney appears to share that view, at least as it relates to the Massachusetts plan.
The individual mandate, he said, “is essential for bringing the health care costs down for everyone and getting everyone the health insurance they nee
Re: What? "We're sorry we got caught"? (Score:2)
Both parties are fighting each other so hard that it looks stupid for any outsider.
Soon it's starting to look like the civil war.
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Won't work unless you drive them around. Apparently, the VW hack looked at things like "is the steering wheel moving?"
Basically, the software tested to see if the car was moving and changed settings.
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if anyone's truly worried about vw/audi failing emissions... based on what the computers have to report about it, tailpipe-test them and see if they are lying.
Was a time a Volkswagen had no concerns. They were exempt from a California emissions sticker others had to get.
Older models weren't able to pass the test due to it's air cooling.
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They got caught with their dick in the pig.
I fail to see what the Clinton family reunion has to do with this.
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Emissions are measured per mile, not per gallon.