EPA Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including In a Porsche (nytimes.com) 142
schwit1 writes with this news from the Times that Volkswagen's emissions scandal just expanded to include more expensive vehicles with larger diesel engines, including Porsche, and Audi sport-utility vehicles. According to the article: "The Environmental Protection Agency said on Monday that it had discovered emissions-cheating software on more Volkswagen and Audi cars than previously disclosed and, for the first time, also found the illegal software in one of the carmaker's high-end Porsche models. The German carmaker disputed the claims, however, saying it had not installed defeat software on the models in question that would 'alter emissions characteristics in a forbidden manner.' The company pledged in a short statement that it would cooperate with the E.P.A. 'to clarify the matter in its entirety.' The latest findings by environmental regulators put significant new pressure on Volkswagen and its new chief executive, Matthias Müller, who was previously the head of Volkswagen's Porsche division. E.P.A. officials indicated the latest violations were found during testing performed by federal regulators and their counterparts in California and Canada. The implication is that Volkswagen did not provide the information."
Damn it! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Damn it! (Score:4, Informative)
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And people judge us accordingly - we're are judged as being "better" for having those things. Even when you know the person leased or is up to his ass in debt for that luxury car, our primitive brains still consider him "better". And you do too. It's subconscious and there's not a damn thing we can do about it other than do our best to override such nonsense feeling with rational thoughts.
No one of substance considers you better for having those things.
Sure, if everything else is equal, and I can comfortably write a check for a newer, more reliable vehicle, I would do so....
but if I would not penalize my future self with a car payment I could not justify so people would like me.
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It's subconscious and there's nothing to be done about it - it's an instantaneous judgement.
Only if you believe that the object in question is actually "better". For example, when I see someone with "Beats" headphones on, I instantly judge them to be trend-following sheeple, not somehow superior. Others may consider Beats to be good headphones, but I'm not one of them.
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Actually, if you keep consciously correcting it, the subconscious will learn. It also involves re-evaluating the status symbol itself. Actually consider why you might think it is objectively better (most status symbols are not) including cost/benefit.
It's not unlike the way you can never learn to ride a bike consciously, but you can consciously convince your cerebellum to learn how to ride a bike.
Keep at it and you'll find your subconscious mind laughing at the silly bugger who spent a few thousand dollars
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No one of substance considers you better for having those things.
Interesting wording there - "no one of substance". Do you mean "inferior people"? "Substance" connotes wealth and career success.
Another point - some people buy higher quality products because those products work better, last longer, and are usually made in countries with higher wages and environmental protections.
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Social signaling has become a lot more complex than "who shows off the most expensive luxury items". A peeling "Gore 2000" sticker next to a rainbow flag on a beat up Prius is a stronger indicator of high socioeconomic status than a Cadillac with gold-plated bumpers.
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Body building is usually going too far, but it definitely IS "better" to be physically fit. You're healthier and you live longer; I can't imagine why that wouldn't be considered "better".
Now of course, there's a big difference between a reasonable amount of effort to stay in shape, and going to extremes as the professional body builders do, which is probably quite unhealthy. But when you mention it in the context of having expensive watched and cars and other luxury items, things that lots and lots of peo
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Is there a diesel class at Le Mans?
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Probably doesn't hurt that the characteristics of a diesel engine that make it popular for over-the-road trucking (ie, long-term, long-operating durability) also are a good fit with endurance racing.
last time a diesel ran in the Indy 500 it was considered a serious contender for exactly those reasons (also, fuel mileage = fewer pit stops). but the designers for some reason put the (unfiltered) air intake at the bottom of the car, so once it had to run with all those other cars banging into each other and spitting out bits, its hours were numbered.
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How are the Porsche owners with these engines going to feel when their SUVs now perform no better than a Dodge Durango or Ford Explorer?
Re: Damn it! (Score:2)
We're talking about the Cayenne, so that's exactly the case.
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"The only thing is not many Porsche cars have TDI Diesel engines, a diesel Porsche kind of defeats the purpose unless you just like to be seen going around in a piece of pressed metal that has 'Porsche' written on the exterior instead of 'Skoda'"
Really, the Diesel Porsche Cayenne is one of the bestselling Porsches in the US.
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Which perfectly explains the nickname "Hausfrauenpanzer".
It is so out of line with the traditional/typical Porsche cars, and having an equally unusual engine ist just one more point to proof that.
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unless you just like to be seen going around in a piece of pressed metal that has 'Porsche' written on the exterior instead of 'Skoda'
Wait. You mean that wasn't the point? Don't tell me people actually buy 400hp cars because they believe them to be superior in a 50km/h zone or while stuck in traffic.
I will wager you that 99% of Porsche owners outside of Germany have no idea what the max speed of their car is and really just bought it because it says Porsche on it. Like the worthless 4wd of theirs I took a ride in which shat itself when driving through a puddle (reversing sensors reacted to 6" deep water) by sounding alarms.
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Evidently, the emission targets established by the EPA are a regulation too far.
Wonder if anyone if looking at Domestic companies. VW and Porsche are no slouch engineers. if they had to cheat to meet the regulations, who else is?
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Investigations [theicct.org] (PDF) by the ICCT, the organisation that first discovered the VW TDI emission violations, have already shown that the majority of diesel cars on the road today emit many times more NOx when driving in the real world than during the official test regime, often more than the VW engines this scandal is about. So far, only VW has admitted to cheating, but if all those other manufacturers are not cheating I would really like to know what they are doing instead.
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On the otherhand perhaps the standards are too strict making it a political problem more so than a technical one.
I'd be more worried about diesel particulates than NOX.
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Absolutely, make sure the other players are obeying the law, and if not, fine and otherwise punish them in accordance with the law until they are in compliance.
Even if everyone else in the whole world is cheating on this test, it does not excuse VW for knowingly violating the law. Lots of people steal, lots of people murder, etc. If you steal, murder, etc. don't expect the rest of us to accept your excuse that lots of other people do it.
Yes, but.... the brilliance of the engineering to recognize the testing environment from real life driving! Hats off to the felons.
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Nobody would take it on themselves to do this. It was a high level manager in consultation with the very highest, all obviously off the record.
Also, US companies will get burned on this, and not just for diesel engines. VW is just the tip of the iceberg.
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Evidently, the emission targets established by the EPA are a regulation too far.
Wonder if anyone if looking at Domestic companies. VW and Porsche are no slouch engineers. if they had to cheat to meet the regulations, who else is?
No, the regs were no problem; the problem is they had to cheat to avoid the tank of urea.
the ultimate goal at VW/Audi/Porsche was to beat Toyota for Biggest In World. Toyota was betting on hybrids; VW was going to go with diesel. They were sure they could hit equivalent mpg, and their intermediate goal was to avoid "customer abrasion"; i.e. the car had to be as convenient and comfortable and and pleasant etc as the gasoline engine. So, noise and roughness and such were engineered out. But the tank of urea
Re:Writing that must've taken some skills (Score:4, Insightful)
I doubt that there is only one guy.
Things like this usually work like this:
During a routine meeting:
Upper Management: Oh, there is a new requirement for the US market. The test procedures have been updated. To be able to sell our cars at the US market, we need to make sure that during a test that will cover this and this and this scenarios A B and C, we must not emit more that amount x of stuff. I don't need to remind you how important that market is for us.
Middle managment: Ok, I'll draft a spec. "When A, B and C, emissions must be below x." I'll pass it to the engineers.
Later at a brainstorming meeting:
Engineer 1: Guys, we need to reach x in situations A, B and C. So, how could we reduce emmissions?
Engineer 2: We could load that set of motor parameters into the engine controller
Engineer 3: But wouldn't that cost us performance/milage/acceleration and/or increase engine noise, driving comfort,
Engineer 2: Yes, but this spec says we only need to do it when A, B and C, so this wouldn't cost us anything in normal operation mode.
Engineer 1: Ok, make it so.
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The story that is emerging makes it seem like it must have been a concious management decision at some point. Apparently the issue is that in order to meet the emissions spec they need to have a system that absorbs some of the exhausted gasses. Periodically this needs to be flushed in order to keep working, around every minute or two. When this happens there is a noticeable loss of performance for a few seconds.
At first they tried to make the firmware intelligent enough to do the flush when the driver would
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As I understood it, that "system" does not absorb or buffer anything, but pipes exhaust fumes back to the engine to burn some of the unwanted stuff. (Can't remember if it is soot or NOx) But that is part of every diesel engine and under control of the motor management.
And in a corporate envirnonment you don't need "lying". Each hierarchy level wants to makes its reports looks good and leaves out just enough of the bad news to make it look a tiny bit better without _actual_ misinformation. Repeat that for ea
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but pipes exhaust fumes back to the engine to burn some of the unwanted stuff.
I haven't followed the VW stuff too closely so I don't know for sure if you're correct on it being this but what you're talking about sounds like an EGR. If that is what they disabled then its purpose isn't to reburn stuff but rather to introduce an inert gas into the combustion chamber, the inert gas effectively decreases the volume of O2 in a combustion cycle and allows the exhaust to come out cooler than it otherwise would this reduces NOx emissions.
Hmmm (Score:4, Insightful)
However VW denies the vehicles have software designed to cheat tests.
Instead the company says that cars with the 3.0 litre diesel V6 engines "had a software function which had not been adequately described in the application process".
If VW wants to get past this scandal, they really need to adopt a full-transparency, maximum mea culpa stance right now, and this kind of statement does not appear to be helping. If there's a software function that seems to the EPA to be cheating on emissions tests, well, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
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Forgot to link the source of that quote: here [bbc.co.uk].
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"So you are saying I can get a cheap VW diesel for the next few years?"
If you live in Africa, yes, because that's where the cars that are going to be exported to.
The models they have to buy back, because it's too expensive to fix them.
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"So you are saying I can get a cheap VW diesel for the next few years?"
If you live in Africa, yes, because that's where the cars that are going to be exported to.
The models they have to buy back, because it's too expensive to fix them.
Shit, I was thinking a 1.5L TDI would make a hellacious Lawn mower engine!
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But they are also risking a penalty for denying. They also denied the original discovery at first. If you keep denying parts of your crime, you deserve a far bigger penalty than if you fess up all, at the start, and get it over with. It's a double crime: cheating AND lying. But maybe German courts work different, or they know how to bribe well, or at least think they do.
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Not knowing is different than "you are wrong, we are right" repeatedly.
If smog cheating happens under their noses then court shenanigans probably do also.
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Yes. That should rather either read: "before VW management knew that engine contained a defeat device" or "before the R&D knew that whatever that enige contained was considered a defeat device"
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However VW denies the vehicles have software designed to cheat tests.
Instead the company says that cars with the 3.0 litre diesel V6 engines "had a software function which had not been adequately described in the application process".
If VW wants to get past this scandal, they really need to adopt a full-transparency, maximum mea culpa stance right now, and this kind of statement does not appear to be helping. If there's a software function that seems to the EPA to be cheating on emissions tests, well, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
The defense they appear to be using goes like this: The law says the cars must pass this specific test, but it doesn't say the cars have to perform according to those emission standards the rest of the time. Therefore, our actions (or the actions of our rogue engineers) are morally wrong, but not legally wrong. We're sorry, and will fix our reprehensible (but not illegal) actions without opening ourselves up to criminal liability.
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If there's a software function that seems to the EPA to be cheating on emissions tests, well, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
Or, perhaps, now that the EPA is carrying around a hammer, everything looks like a nail? Perhaps coupled with the embarrassment of having been hoodwinked by VW for several years, leading to overcompensation/overreaction/presumptive labeling of anything they observe that they don't immediately understand? That seems pretty par for the course for a governmental bureaucracy.
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Haven't you noticed that automotive model years tend to lead calender years? 2016 Audi's have been on sale for now for several months. Actually, at this point you might have trouble finding a new 2015 Audi for sale.
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Oh, no it's not that way at all. The cheat increases NOx emission and gains improved fuel mileage, which reduces Evil(tm), global warming causing CO2!
What's the difference? (Score:3, Interesting)
Consumer organisations warned from before these tests started that they would be falsified.
From testing by those consumer organisations we've know that the advertised numbers where bullshit.
What's the big difference between physical alterations to the car and software alterations?
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What's the big difference between physical alterations to the car and software alterations?
Software alterations are easier to hide, won't be caught by most wrench-swinging mechanics, and can enable changes in hardware state on an if/then/else basis - i.e. software is perfectly suited to cheating emissions rules.
Re:What's the difference? (Score:4, Insightful)
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What's the big difference between physical alterations to the car and software alterations?
Software alterations are easier to hide, won't be caught by most wrench-swinging mechanics, and can enable changes in hardware state on an if/then/else basis - i.e. software is perfectly suited to cheating emissions rules.
i'm amazed that at no point did they try to claim that they were hacked by North Korea
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I don't understand this whole controversy.
Fair enough. How about an non-car analogy.
Consumer organisations warned from before these tests started that they would be falsified.
There were warnings that people would cheat on the SAT's too.
From testing by those consumer organisations we've know that the advertised numbers where bullshit.
Once people got into college it was quite clear that scores didn't match ability to perform.
What's the big difference between physical alterations to the car and software alterations?
Intentionally selecting a test that the student knows the answers of is cheating. Changing the way the test is graded so more answers are marked correct is cheating. The difference is the first inaccurately implies actual knowledge, while the other doesn't differentiate the ignorance inserted into it. The reason a s
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I don't understand this whole controversy.
Fair enough. How about an non-car analogy.
Consumer organisations warned from before these tests started that they would be falsified.
There were warnings that people would cheat on the SAT's too.
From testing by those consumer organisations we've know that the advertised numbers where bullshit.
Once people got into college it was quite clear that scores didn't match ability to perform.
What's the big difference between physical alterations to the car and software alterations?
Intentionally selecting a test that the student knows the answers of is cheating. Changing the way the test is graded so more answers are marked correct is cheating. The difference is the first inaccurately implies actual knowledge, while the other doesn't differentiate the ignorance inserted into it. The reason a software alteration is so bad is that as a society we tend to see the first and say, at least they
This is why we can't have gay marriage. People will cheat. And once the purchase is finalized, it will become clear that performance will not be as advertised.
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What's the big difference between physical alterations to the car and software alterations?
A modern engine contains (and has to contain) a device that alters engine parameters dynamically during driving. An additional set of parameters would be just one more parameter set among I don't know how many, but a physical alteration would be something uniquely designed for cheating. But the line between dynamic parameter specialization, over-specialization and outright cheating is not always clear.
Compare it to that kid that "cheated" in mental arithmetics by memorizing those multiplication tables.
This is how they start. (Score:2)
"These guys learnt about the defeat device in VW models. Then, on their own, without any directives from HQ, without any incentives from us, completely on their own, unbeknowest to the top management, did I say completely on their own, yes on their own, they did it.
We top management are completely blameless. We get paid oodles of money because we are the smartest and best in leading a complex company through difficult markets. So we deserve every penny we get as pay and bonus.
But everytime something like this happens, you can't blame the management, not the incentive structure, not the pressure we apply to deliver new and exciting products to our esteemed customers.
BTW, can we cash all our stocks and options before the company goes bankrupt? Hate to see all those millions of shares and option be priced at zero"
Re:This is how they start. (Score:5, Insightful)
If it were true, that might absolve them on the defeat-device issue; but it'd be pretty horrifying on the 'software validation processes for a life-critical component going into millions of vehicles' front. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in, near, or on the same road as, a car whose ECU firmware was built under such a sloppy process that some engineering peon could secretly slip easter eggs into it.
Aside from that, there's also the minor issue that the affected engine doesn't exist in isolation: VW has been making diesel engines for decades, has multiple product lines for various purposes, has ongoing R&D efforts, and so on. Are we supposed to believe that nobody raised an eyebrow when the revision N+1 engines suddenly started turning in far better NOx numbers than the revision N ones; and none of the mechanical engineers had touched anything and the software guys would only look away and mumble something about 'optimized the firmware'? Are we supposed to believe that the R&D people working on refining existing designs or creating new ones aren't wondering why their advanced prototypes are getting worse NOx numbers than years-old production models?
If you just have a single product; no predecessors, no successors, maybe you can rig the demo without alerting anyone not involved in the rigging; but if your rigged product is an adaptation of a prior version? Then you have to explain an impressive discontinuity in performance between the current design and the prior model; and somehow explain away why the research guys can't do as well as you can(or find research guys so dense that they only use EPA tests and don't wonder why none of their tweaks appear to change the results). That is a great deal harder and less plausible.
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Are we supposed to believe that nobody raised an eyebrow when the revision N+1 engines suddenly started turning in far better NOx numbers than the revision N ones
I expect they were trying to keep the numbers from getting worse, not improve on previous values. Revision N is churning out emissions that exceed acceptable levels, so they "optimize" the software to reduce emissions during the conditions in which the excess was observed. Though as you say, it was likely done under the direction of someone high up, with wink-wink, nudge-nudge approval from the rest of management.
If I were evil, I would have set it up so I could blame it on a junior engineer and still h
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All of them (Score:3)
Up to this point, I suspect all car manufacturers to cheat on emissions, except Tesla, maybe.
It's like in some sports where all world-class athletes use performance enhancing drugs in order to meet some naturally unrealistic goal.
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Up to this point, I suspect all car manufacturers to cheat on emissions, except Tesla, maybe. It's like in some sports where all world-class athletes use performance enhancing drugs in order to meet some naturally unrealistic goal.
I'm surprised that nobody so far has brought up benchmarking tests for software, and the tuning of software to maximize said test scores.
Seriously, cut the bullshit (Score:1)
Let's just bankrupt VW and bankrupt them now. Assess the maximum penalty per vehicle sold, don't allow vehicles to be registered unless they pass applicable emissions tests, and allow consumers to sue VW to recover damages in the event that VW can't deliver on its advertised performance specs while obeying the law.
Can we hold these big companies to the same standards you or I would be held to if we intentionally perpetrated millions of cases of fraud? I'm not even asking that the entire management and execu
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Let's just bankrupt VW and bankrupt them now.
What would be gained by that? And how do you plan to bankrupt a company?
Assess the maximum penalty per vehicle sold, don't allow vehicles to be registered unless they pass applicable emissions tests, and allow consumers to sue VW to recover damages in the event that VW can't deliver on its advertised performance specs while obeying the law.
All of that is already being done. I don't think that VW is planning to reduce performance with the modifications or that the KBA would let them do that even if they wanted. They have already stated that they will install new parts for engines that would otherwise not be able to meet NOx requirements without affecting mileage or performance.
Can we hold these big companies to the same standards you or I would be held to if we intentionally perpetrated millions of cases of fraud?
Sure, but shall we restrict that treatment to cases where companies actually intentionally perpet
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Let's just bankrupt VW and bankrupt them now.
What would be gained by that? And how do you plan to bankrupt a company?
Assess the maximum penalty per vehicle sold, don't allow vehicles to be registered unless they pass applicable emissions tests, and allow consumers to sue VW to recover damages in the event that VW can't deliver on its advertised performance specs while obeying the law.
All of that is already being done. I don't think that VW is planning to reduce performance with the modifications or that the KBA would let them do that even if they wanted. They have already stated that they will install new parts for engines that would otherwise not be able to meet NOx requirements without affecting mileage or performance.
Can we hold these big companies to the same standards you or I would be held to if we intentionally perpetrated millions of cases of fraud?
Sure, but shall we restrict that treatment to cases where companies actually intentionally perpetrated millions of cases of fraud? Not really applicable in this case.
I'm not even asking that the entire management and executive structure be sent to jail.
But then that would be a bit pointless. Most of them do not seem to have broken any laws as it stands.
Is that really so much to fucking ask?
Yes, since there is this thing called "equality under the law". Several of VW's competitors have done far worse things and got away with minor fines and no criminal prosecution for anyone involved. For example, General Motors did [nytimes.com] had a defeat device in a similar number of cars in the U.S. and it cost them a grand total of $45 million in fines, recalls and payments towards compensation projects.
given how lightly we treat car companies who deliberately decide that killing vehicle occupants is permissible, I doubt that we will do much to those who merely decide to kill members of the general breathing population.
Executives in jail solves the long term problem (Score:2)
I'm not even asking that the entire management and executive structure be sent to jail.
But that's exactly what would help prevent these kinds of things.
The mindset of senior management is that there is no consequence for their actions. There will only be dollar/euro costs and these will be borne by the company, to be extracted from shareholders and future customers.
I'd advocate for two things. One, the real likelihood of jail time. After that, some kind of law that requires executives to be personally financially liable for these crimes, up to and including auctioning off their personal pr
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Yes, it sure is.
I like my real world 50mpg highway, instead of 42mpg epa rated and advertised.
I also like my actual 155hp crank hp instead of advertisted 140hp.
People mostly buy diesels for efficency (typically 30% more than gas engine), longevity and lower maintenance, not to be green.
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Let's just bankrupt VW and bankrupt them now. Assess the maximum penalty per vehicle sold, don't allow vehicles to be registered unless they pass applicable emissions tests, and allow consumers to sue VW to recover damages in the event that VW can't deliver on its advertised performance specs while obeying the law.
Can we hold these big companies to the same standards you or I would be held to if we intentionally perpetrated millions of cases of fraud? I'm not even asking that the entire management and executive structure be sent to jail. I'm just asking that you take the toys away from the children who won't play nicely with them.
Is that really so much to fucking ask?
hold them to the same standards we apply to merchant banking. have the government repurchase all such cars at public expense and pay for reengineering a new generation, then give bonuses to all company executives and allow them to sue the government for emotional damages.
Headline Grabber (Score:3)
To those of you who don't want to RTFA, the diesel engine was an option in only one of Porsche's models and without doing any research I would guess there probably isn't more than a thousand of them with the diesel option in the USA.
So tempest in a teapot and all that.....
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This isn't just Porsche though, Audi Q5 & Q7 sold a lot of TDI models as did VW with their Touraeg.
All those cars are built on the same platform (Score:4, Informative)
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Same engine, but different controller software perhaps?
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That's actually why I'm a bit skeptical of the EPA claims in this case. The EPA cites [epa.gov] only the 2014 Touareg, 2015 Cayenne, and various 2016 Audi models for having the defeat device. But all three of those vehicle lines sharing the same engine all three years. If you found it on those specific vehicles, you'd expect to find it on all those vehicles for all three years because it's the same engine.
same reason Honda was forced to deal with self destructing transmissions in Accords, but not with the exact same transmission installed in Odysseys or ridgelines. if anyone ever finds out what that reason is please let us know.
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Maybe because the VW CEO resigned in disgrace [npr.org] and the Porsche CEO took over with a mandate to clean up VW's act [theguardian.com], purportedly because Porsche was squeaky clean?
Haha, (Score:1)
So is it still just a few nefarious software developers/Engineers fault and not anyone higher up the ladder?
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So is it still just a few nefarious software developers/Engineers fault and not anyone higher up the ladder?
turns out it was just Wolfgang over in shipping, who would flip the switch labeled "emissions cheating mode, do not engage" to on, because he thought it was turning the dome light off.
Only VW. Really?? (Score:2)
Only VW is doing this? Seems pretty unlikely, and here's why I think that's so: http://geekcrumbs.com/2015/10/... [geekcrumbs.com]
Also Revealed (Score:2)
A crisis is also an opportunity (Score:2)
Someone posted elsewhere that now would be an ideal time for VW to make sure that _all_ its dirty laundry is aired. (aka "please take these other offences into consideration")
It's fairly clear that all makers have been gaming the system (various ones have been caught: EG, caterpilar/cummins a couple of years back, Ford about a decade ago and VW 40 years ago) to some degree or another and by stepping forward with everything now VW puts the onus on the others to also step forward or face a major ass-kicking i
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That is irrelevant.
in fact, the company is a product of the german national culture, which is so primitive that they do not have the sense to just buy a solid majority of the legislature in any company they do business in and get laws passed that exempt them from everything under the sun, like we world leader countries do; instead they go with their own national strength, brilliant engineering; which might not be brilliant enough to solve the problem, but will be brilliant enough to cover it up.
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This is probably the easiest money the US Government has ever made - with the exception of course of stealing 50% of everyone's income right off the top.
the government steals 50% of your income? you know that your mortgage payment is not a tax, right?
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Taxes are not theft, they're the cost of civilization.
Our civilization is just fine already, thanks.
Unless the 'cost' you refer to is blackmail to be paid to ensure that a bunch of anarchists^H^H^H^Hactivists don't rise up to disrupt it occasionally.
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Our civilization is doing pretty well, and we pay taxes. Similarly, when I go to the grocery store, I can walk out with food and no hassles, provided I pay for it before leaving the store.
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when I go to the grocery store,
But if you go to the grocery store in the next town, do you still owe your neighborhood store money? No? Welcome to the majority of the world. Yes? Welcome to the USA.
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Just because on the whole you think something is needed, doesn't mean it is not what it is.
Wars are state sanctioned killing.
Taxes are state sanctioned theft/extortion.
Police are a state sanctioned gang.
You can twiddle the words a bit, but you do recognize half the truth when you say "they're the cost". Whenever somebody says it is the cost, then you know someone is being hurt. If they weren't it wouldn't be a cost.
As someone who lived in some rather lawless areas.
The police are a better gang than an actual
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But I don't want my tax money being used to fix your roads! I don't drive in your neighborhood so I don't care about your roads!
well, that's the ayn rand style free market small government utopia; one guy gets out there and fills the pothole in front of his house himself, then he sits on top of it on a folding chair, holding a shotgun and demanding everybody who drives down the street pay him. and if they don't want to, let them drive elsewhere.
clearly, if everybody did this instead of the nanny state sending its jackbooted thugs to fix all the potholes and get everybody to split the bill, our society would be so much further ahea