Seattle Passes First Uber Drivers' Union Into Law (thestack.com) 180
An anonymous reader writes: The city council of Seattle has unanimously voted in favour of a proposal which will require Uber — and driving-related companies which operate on the same principle — to allow its drivers to be represented by a union, the first of its kind in the US. The lead-up to the vote was hallmarked by opposition from Seattle's mayor Ed Murray, and by a publicity campaign from Uber, which opposed the bill. Though the law will allow collective bargaining for drivers which are effectively on zero-hours contracts, any effect it has on current disputes as to whether Uber drivers are employees or contractors will be ambient rather than direct.
is ebay sellers union next??? (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't see why they would need this.. if the rates you get aren't competitive... why even do it... move on and do something else... it's not like uber is the only option in seatle...
Re:is ebay sellers union next??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed there is no long, glorious history of corporations abusing employees, leading to the employee protection laws we have now. That never happened, so I don't see any reason why we should make sure those protections are retained in any way whatsoever.
Re:is ebay sellers union next??? (Score:4, Informative)
But we already have laws stating what employers can and cannot do to employees. We have laws detailing how long a shift can be and how long you must have off between shifts. We have laws about what kind of breaks you have to have during your shift. We have laws about the employer not being able to discriminate pay rates or hiring practices based on things like gender or ethnicity. There are laws about minimum wages.
Unions were very good at one point in history when corporations were actually abusing their employees. Now that there are ample laws in place protecting employees, unions have become less necessary. They seem to have the opposite effect that they once had. They continue to push for higher and higher wages, and more benefits, until it becomes financially irresponsible to the shareholders to continue to pay those rates, when they know that there are cheaper workers who will do the job in other countries.
Re:is ebay sellers union next??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Unions were very good at one point in history when corporations were actually abusing their employees. Now that there are ample laws in place protecting employees, unions have become less necessary.
Except now companies like Uber are finding inventive ways to not call employees employees. That means they have none of the protections any more, since they're not employees. And so the union has a use again.
until it becomes financially irresponsible to the shareholders to continue to pay those rates, when they know that there are cheaper workers who will do the job in other countries.
Good luck outsourcing taxi drivers to another country.
Also "finanance" doesn't excuse unethically not paying a living wage and etc. Being a dick for money doesn't make you less of a dick. Working in a company does not magically grant you some sort of ethical bypass. If you're happy to do so then you should declare "yes I am happy to screw over my fellow man for money". Don't try to hide behind "finance".
Re:is ebay sellers union next??? (Score:4, Insightful)
Uber is very interested in self driving cars [businessinsider.com]. They know what the end game is. Having human drivers is just a stop gap step in getting their foot in the door in the taxi industry. The same way that Netflix used DVD delivery by mail to jump start their online streaming services, Uber is definitely thinking about the next step that they are going to be taking.
Re:is ebay sellers union next??? (Score:5, Funny)
Uber is very interested in self driving cars. They know what the end game is. Having human drivers is just a stop gap step in getting their foot in the door in the taxi industry.
Don't worry, it's Seattle. I'm sure self-driving cars will be allowed to join the union as well!
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uber effectively bought the robotics department at CMU. I think they're pretty serious about this.
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yeah and?
Self driving cars are coming with or without uber. While people are in the loop there's still no reason to treat them shittily just because automation will replace them in future.
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Uber is very interested in self driving cars [businessinsider.com]. They know what the end game is. Having human drivers is just a stop gap step in getting their foot in the door in the taxi industry. The same way that Netflix used DVD delivery by mail to jump start their online streaming services, Uber is definitely thinking about the next step that they are going to be taking.
Yes, the big question is how Uber will contract the cars from some other group so they won't be responsible if anything happens.
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But....NOT every job has to be one with a living wage, that's the problem here. Some jobs are meant to be starter jobs (for younger folks that need to have that first job to learn responsibility, how to do taxes, etc.).
Uber isn't really meant to be a career...it is something that folks do to pick up some extra money on the side.
Perhaps we need to have a category of jobs...Real jobs (that you make a living wage with) vs Side Jobs
Filler jobs also (Score:2)
But....NOT every job has to be one with a living wage, that's the problem here. Some jobs are meant to be starter jobs
Also don't forget about "filler" jobs, which are ones that help supplement a small income (like social security or disability). Those jobs are important too, and equally being culled by the onslaught of a higher minimum wage.
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LMOL filler jobs, nice one ass-hole. I guess you'd like to abolish child labor laws....
Nope. He didn't say that but since your mind went there, I guess those laws are on your closeted hit list.
And as soon as the democrats want children working again, we will start hearing "what right do you have to tell a child they cannot live the america dream?" And then we will start hearing about the "war on children"
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Why do you hate having freedom to choose?
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Except now companies like Uber are finding inventive ways to not call employees employees.
How ARE they employees in any sense of the word, when they have total control over when they work?
A real "employee" has some obligations around attendance and being told what to do. An Uber driver is no more an employee of Uber than you and I are employees of Slashdot because sometimes we come here and write content for them.
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If the job wont go to Habib, bring Habib to the job.
Plenty of "H1-B/457/whatever your country calls it" visa abuse goes on.
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Thanks. The future is most people on a robot-provided dole, with a handful robots inventing better robots.
Well, I for one, welcome our new robotic overlords.
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when they know that there are cheaper workers who will do the job in other countries.
This doesn't apply to Uber. You can't get someone in India to drive you between two points in Seattle. Well, not yet at least...
As for "ample laws" protecting employees, those don't exist for "contractors" or even part-time workers. So unions still have a place in securing benefits for workers who the law has disregarded.
Re:is ebay sellers union next??? (Score:5, Informative)
But we already have laws stating what employers can and cannot do to employees. We have laws detailing how long a shift can be and how long you must have off between shifts. We have laws about what kind of breaks you have to have during your shift. We have laws about the employer not being able to discriminate pay rates or hiring practices based on things like gender or ethnicity. There are laws about minimum wages.
Well, you're right. But most of this is NOT relevant to this particular situation, because Uber has fought to claim that it's employees aren't actually "employees."
Thus, they don't have to conform to most of those laws you mention. Hence people arguing that they may need a union to obtain such basic protections.
Or have you somehow missed the continuous parade of court cases about whether Uber "employees" are actually employed by Uber?
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PSSST. The 60s are over. What you wrote was relevant then, but certainly not now.
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Perhaps, but as long as unions give their members value--as long as employers cave to union demands--unions will continue to exist, "necessary" or not.
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They did fill a need in the past.
But since then, they have become corrupted entities that rob wages from people that don't want or need them, and they overburden companies with requirements that make corporations unable to compete with the global economy. In many cases, not all.....but enough to be a problem today.
They also take money from work
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It is not the 60s. Unions are not controlled by mob bosses anymore. Your tinfoil hat spewing is ridiculous in 2015.
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Well, if the need for unions returns, then we can slowly bring them back as needed.
And I for one don't see Uber abusing any system. It seems to work great, for me as a rider, and for drivers here all of which I've asked and they said they love it as a great way to earn a little side money, get out and meet people, etc.
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To me, Uber's model looks like a proper 1099 contractor model.
You have your head up your ass if you think everyone out there doesn't like the 1099 model and only wants to be a W2 grunt worker.....
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By that measure, Uber pays drivers (and charges riders) too much already. The fees should be just enough to cover fuel costs. If drivers are doing this as a job, then it's not r
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Re:is ebay sellers union next??? (Score:5, Insightful)
The riders don't specify either the terms and conditions or the price. Uber does. Given that, how you rationalize shifting all the responsibility from Uber to the riders escapes me...
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Geez, leave it to government to try to throw a wrench into a new business model....
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Ah, Captain Freemarkets comes swooping in.
You contract mainly in the private sector, right? Where you're exposed to competition from H1Bs and offshoring like everyone else, right?
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I'm sorry...are there a bunch of H1B's trying to push US citizens out of Uber contract gigs that I missed?
I do all kinds of contract work...private, and govt. I love it. Freedom to set my bill rate, find jobs I like, pay my own way AND, keep more of my hard earned money from Uncle Sam's tax grab than I could when I was a W2....
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Why would you need collective bargaining with 1099 contract workers??
Geez, leave it to government to try to throw a wrench into a new business model....
What new business model? Workers are either employees bound by rules that give the employer certain rights, in exchange for the employees getting certain rights, or workers are contractors, where the employer has to butt-out of the contractor's business and has very limited say as to what the contractor may do when not doing work specifically applicable to the company. The definitions for these two classes cover just about every possible kind of work. There is no need for a new business model, as this is
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OK - so how do you decide if someone is an employee? If someone makes 1 drive for Uber and then never does it again, are they an employee?
How long do they have to be working to be considered an employee?
Is this much different than working for a temp agency? Employee goes to agency and the agency sends them somewhere to work on a temp basis. Do those have unions?
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The whole argument is that they're being treated to the negative aspects of being an employee while also being treated to the negative aspects of being a contractor. Pick one or the other.
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They look to be perfectly fitting into the contractor model....own equipment, set own hours...can accept or decline to pick someone up, etc.
Seems to be a contractor to me....where's the negative here?
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What business model. You mean the one that avoids laws....
How is that not *all* business models?
You thread the maze of twisty passages set up by the regulators, in an effort to get the most income with the least outlay. That's kind of the entire game plan for all businesses. You avoid the laws by (1) not running afoul of them, and (2) design your business model such that the fewest laws possible are applicable to your model. Occasionally, you purchase (or rent; they're contractors, after all) a legislator.
Re:is ebay sellers union next??? (Score:5, Insightful)
How did this get upvoted? This is rehashing of "if you have nothing to hide" fallacy.
To address this directly. Finding a new job may impose undue hardship. Imagine if you had to put up with an abusive boss at work, and instead of being sympathetic I tell you to find a new job. Maybe you are nearing retirement age Turbo Pascal programmer and this is not really an option.
Some people.
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Let me put it into terms you might understand. If someone has a choice to drive for Uber or go back on the dole, what would you rather they do? So you are saying it is not our problem, let them make their choices?
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You are out of touch. Think of all the uneducated and under employed people that are getting squeezed out by automation.
A thing of beauty, isn't it?!?
Eventually, we'll have a Universal Basic Income, and humans can stop doing drudge work better handled by automation, altogether.
Pretty sure that's what Plato meant by "Utopia"...
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Ummm...because they are the employer?
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Ummm...because they are the employer?
Which makes the drivers employees...
This mentality is what allowed company towns and effective lifetime servitude in the past century. Companies will define White as Black if it is more profitable to do so, and will try to convince you that starving to death ind debtor's jail is a socially acceptable alternative to taking their shitty terms.
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Re:is ebay sellers union next??? (Score:4, Interesting)
The business model is dumb for the drivers because of the hundreds of hidden costs
Reminds me of a /. person posted, which I saved his writings in my "diatribes and knowledge" folder:
---begin quote---
I'll define 'crazy Uber people' not as 'danger to customers', but 'people who are bringing more value in terms of vehicle, skill and desire to please, than they are getting back in pay and benefits'. So the crazy Uber person is the one who keeps buying a new Lexus or whatever, vacuums their car three times a day and busts their ass to outperform all the other Uber drivers, so they can continue to win out over anybody else seeking to be a driver.
The key factor is that they are giving more than they get back, in the belief that they're cornering some kind of market or buying in to something important. If you make a business that relies on people like this, you can demolish anybody else because you've worked out how to get voluntary unpaid labor, like the Amazon exec who was said to use her own money to hire subcontractors to do more. As long as there are people who are willing to do that, the market breaks and Amazon/Uber get to do what Wal-Mart did in small towns, break the back of other market participants so they can't break even or continue.
Another way to be a crazy Uber person is to put more depreciation and wear and tear on your car than you can afford to repair (or replace). It's easy to be crazy in these ways. It's externalities which are easy to overlook. These Amazon/Uber business models are designed to leverage that kind of crazy as hard as possible, and kick out everybody who's not willing to lose (one way or another) on the deal. Psychology is useful in getting people to buy into this stuff.
As they say, a cult.
----end quote---
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Except that Uber can hold all the cards, "Feel free to work elsewhere, oh wait there is no elsewhere".
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Except that Uber can hold all the cards, "Feel free to work elsewhere, oh wait there is no elsewhere".
There might be an "elsewhere" soon enough if Uber's prices keep rising, which is now more likely a labor demands higher compensation. Non-unionized competitors should be allowed to co-exist if they can.
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I don't see why they would need this.. if the rates you get aren't competitive... why even do it... move on and do something else... it's not like uber is the only option in seatle...
Because entitlement! It's not my fault that I'm a bad driver and my car smells bad and I'm rude to people. I deserve just as much money as the guy who actually puts in an effort. Plus, where else am I going to find another job where the only time I need to work is when I was planning on going on a Taco Bell run already?
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I don't see why they would need this.. if the rates you get aren't competitive... why even do it... move on and do something else... it's not like uber is the only option in seatle...
Uber might not be providing standard things like medical/dental/retirement/vacation benefits to their drivers. A union could demand such things.
If Uber was like eBay.... (Score:3)
If Uber was like eBay, you'd have to negotiate the price with the driver *and pay him* before he evens show up. And then he just doesn't show up at all. So you call Uber and they promise to start an investigation, but do nothing. In the end, 6 months later, you get your money back, but you're still stranded on the street corner.
And for the Uber drivers, they'd experience getting a call to pick up someone. The driver and client are in Seattle. However, when the client, who has already negotiated a price with
ebay sellers have a lot more control flea market (Score:2)
ebay sellers have a lot more control. They are like flea markets that are a few rules (no where near uber) and they change fees for the space. The sellers have full control over pricing and can't be told stuff like no tips.
Google self driving cars are next (Score:3, Funny)
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So if self aware AI develops would it be recognized as a person? Esp. since corporations are recognized as a person? You just brought up a very deep topic.
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Don't see a problem (Score:3)
I'm sure the other taxi services in Seattle are unionized, there is no reason for the Uber taxi service not to have the same.
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Uber isn't a taxi service, it's a black-car service. That's how they don't run afoul of taxi laws: they aren't taxis. A taxi is a car with a taximeter which charges you based on distance traveled, stops, etc. A "black car" (basically limosine) is a car where you contact the service and arrange in advance for a ride from point A to point B, are given an estimate beforehand, and can select which driver you want to ride with and in which car. These services existed LONG before Uber came around. Uber just
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That's funny because Uber cars provide almost the exact same service as a taxi -- on-demand, point-to-point intra-city travel using a car and a driver. I don't think black cars are on-demand, you have to book them in advance.
So a taximeter service provided by Uber's servers isn't a taximeter, right? Next you'll claim sounds from mp3 files isn't music and only music on
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No, it isn't a taximeter. It's a black car: you get an estimate beforehand. Have you ever even used a black car before Uber? All they did was take that and replace the telephone call + radio dispatch with a smartphone app. Why don't I see any of you morons screaming for limos to be regulated like taxis???
But Uber is like a taxi, since the average wait time needed to book a cab is around 5 minutes, same as a taxi
Now you're proving yourself to be a complete liar. The last time I booked a cab, it took the
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Because there is a BIG difference between limos and uber cars.
* Uber cars are way cheaper compared to limos. Uber price range is similar to that of regular taxis.
* Limos are better (luxury) cars compared to crappy taxis or uber cars.
* You have to register well ahead of time to have a limo pick you up. Taxis/Ubers, on the other hand, are on-demand and you get picked up/matched with the car closest to you almost immediately.
* L
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* Uber cars are way cheaper compared to limos. Uber price range is similar to that of regular taxis.
That's irrelevant. Companies are free to price their services however they want; government regulation doesn't dictate pricing for limos.
* Limos are better (luxury) cars compared to crappy taxis or uber cars.
Bullshit, you're lying again. I've ridden in Mercedes with Uber. I'll take a Mercedes any day over some shitty American-made limo (usually a Lincoln). I've ridden in Lincolns; they're all shit.
* You h
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Like hell it's irrelevant. Companies charge prices based on the quality of service they're providing (cars similar in quality to taxis) and their competition's prices (again, taxi fare rates). Limos, on average, are much better quality cars than taxis or Uber cars and their prices are a lot higher too.
The exce
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Limos, on average, are much better quality cars than taxis or Uber cars and their prices are a lot higher too.
You're a moron and a liar. Uber cars are nicer than limos. What kind of fucking moron thinks a Lincoln is nicer than a Mercedes? You idiot.
The exception that proves the rule, moron.
Fuck you, asswipe. It's not the exception, it's the norm with Uber. I've ridden in lots of nice cars with Uber.
You can wave your arms to catch a taxi or wait a couple of minutes or less to have a Uber taxi come to w
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One more point... You must've heard of patent trolls, there's a story about them at least once a month on slashdot. Patent trolls obtain patents on obvious, everyday functionality, except it's done o
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Fuck you, you piece of shit. You're a shill for the shitty old taxi companies. They have no fucking taximeter, so they're NOT A FUCKING TAXI SERVICE. Get it, you lying sack of shit?
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They have a taximeter, on the internet. You don't need a physical meter when software can do the job more effectively. Did you not read my previous posts? How many times do I have to repeat the same thing before it penetrates your thick skull?
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Oh yeah, about the obscenities. Fuck you, your ugly whore mother, and murderer of a father. Fuck you and your whole family, you ugly piece of garbage.
Either learn to debate properly, or simply slit your throat open.
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But Uber is like a taxi, since the average wait time needed to book a cab is around 5 minutes, same as a taxi. Can you book a black car in 5 minutes? What if all black cars are servicing other customers (since there are only a few cars per company), not thousands like Uber or regular taxis.
As a resident of Seattle who has used the town car services (black-car) here and given some attention to it, yes, Uber and the rest operated under the same laws and rules here. Booking a black-car in Seattle is easy, and it can be done by web page with the click of a button. Although they typically only have Towncars and Limos, and in the instance I just checked online, I couldn't schedule it for sooner than an hour (which means it may still get to me before a Seattle cab) but that has typically meant at
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No, it's not, fuckwad. It has no taximeter, it's the same as a limosine.
Fuck off.
what does this sentence even mean? (Score:2)
Though the law will allow collective bargaining for drivers which are effectively on zero-hours contracts, any effect it has on current disputes as to whether Uber drivers are employees or contractors will be ambient rather than direct.
zero-hours contracts? ambient? whaa?
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Right of Association (Score:2)
I don't understand this. What is stopping any group of people from forming a "union" for any purpose? Why do they need permission from the government?
I am not a fan of workers' unions as we typically understand them, but I would never deny them the right to act collectively.
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Uber has a problem with calling its drivers "employees". That is to say, they don't.
Really, they shouldn't be calling them contractors either, but if they didn't employ the drivers one way or the other, how would they extract their profit from the drivers' work? They should have looked harder at ebay and other companies that manage to extract profits from their users without employing them. Nobody calls the guy selling random junk on ebay an employee or a contractor, do they?
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Nobody calls the guy selling random junk on ebay an employee or a contractor, do they?
And yet eBay does the same thing as Uber, in terms of rating sellers, which is what people are claiming results in Uber's contractors supposedly being employees.
Personally, were I in charge at Uber, it would cost only a few million dollars to set up either franchise operations, or set up each driver as a corporation, and then contract with the corporation on a 1099 basis, instead of with the driver themselves.
We really know that there are two issues here: (1) The taxi companies have historically held a meda
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Unions have a dark side, too, like the inability to fire incompetent people, valuing seniority over ability, creating artificial scarcity (you can only hire union people for job x, and the union won't let people in), etc.
There's no upside for Uber. If they were going to do everything the union wants anyway, then at best the union is a NOOP.
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Corporations have a dark side, too, like the inability to fire incompetent people, valuing seniority over ability, creating artificial scarcity, etc.
Fixed that for you.
You didn't fix it very well. Most corporations look at seniority as a liability, in terms of the premium they end up paying for it.
There's a reason the average age at many Silicon Valley companies is far lower than the average age of Silicon Valley CEOs. Google and other tech companies run at an average age of about 29 years old. Larry Page, on the other hand, is 42. The median age of U.S. workers across all industries is 42.4. The average age of a Facebook employee is 26; Zuckerberg is currently 31.
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Germany is happy with unionisation. Unions act as the negotiator between management and non-management, ensuring that employees have sufficient compensation to maintain an interest in keeping their job, updating their skills often, and keeping as productive as possible. Everybody wins.
Not everybody wins. The people without jobs don't win. Unions are only useful once you're in the union. Unions usually try to impose limits on the number of new hires. Unions also always carve out the more lucractive territories and the better schedules for its more senior members.
And in the United States at least, collective bargaining usually doesn't allow for individual bargaining, so a portion of your income goes to Union fees whether you want the Union representing yourself, or not.
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Not unlike corporations taking your labor and then using the money generated from it to lobby for laws that will put you out of work.
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Why would you work for a company that has a union then? The union requires the contract to unionize employees, because otherwise you get into situations like Indiana where unions are toothless. They cannot enforce contracts and management can feel free to violate those contracts without much danger. Unions come about and exist today because companies continue to view their employees like simple "
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Why would you work for a company that has a union then?
That's an interesting sociopathic question.
So your view is that all the Uber drivers who don't want to be represented by a Union should just quit then? That should make things easier for you, right. Anyone who isn't willing to work for the common good of the group should just become selfless and quit whenever a Union comes in. Either be with us, or move out of the way.
I'll give you one concession. If you want me to contribute to a strike fund (or to a fund that pays for a Union lawyer), allow me to put asid
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You're saying a union agreement is an agreement between an employer and its employees. You and I both know this is becoming less and less the case. The government is often the one coercing companies to unionize.
In this case especially with Uber, a couple of politicians have started all of this. The fact is, many Uber drivers are driving for Uber precisely because it offers them so much flexibility (and not because it's a union shop). Saying that those people should just move aside and quit if they don't wan
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Do you have any evidence to back your statement up?
> In this case especially with Uber, a couple of politicians have started all of this.
Actually Uber's employees started this and judging by what I've read it's being met with some happiness by Uber drivers.
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Unions are only useful once you're in the union.
Nonsense, everyone is subject to the same tarriff contract, regardless if in a union or not.
Unions usually try to impose limits on the number of new hires.
No they don't. That would be idiotic.
Unions also always carve out the more lucractive territories and the better schedules for its more senior members.
Yes! And? What is wring with that?
so a portion of your income goes to Union fees whether you want the Union representing yourself, or not.
You want to tell m
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Actually germany is not at all happy with uinions.
Constantly unions are Merging to get more and more power. Unions are meanwhile some of the biggest employers themself.
The unions in germany are one reason why unemployment is so high, they are the prime reason we have such a low rate of part time workers. Part time workers don't need unions, you know. If the job, the boss or the coworkers suck, or the payment is not adequate: they switch.
The only way to get a decent payed part time job in germany is to get a
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