Seattle's Behemoth Boring Machine, Idle Since 2013, Makes Some Progress 111
After being blocked by an obstruction ("the object") which left it idle just over two years ago, repair work has continued on Bertha, Seattle's enormous tunnel-boring machine. Now, reports KOMO News and The Seattle Times, Bertha is once again ready to work. From The Times' coverage:
Tuesday morning's push of one and a half feet provided Seattle Tunnel Partners (STP) enough space behind Bertha’s drive motors to fasten the next concrete ring at the 1,085-foot mark of the planned 9,270-foot tube. Chris Dixon, STP project manager, is calling this a testing phase. The team is measuring how Bertha responds while rotating through heavy loads of compacted sand. Last week, a fixed steel arm in the front end broke and needed a one-day repair. ... This week’s two-day push would leave the nose of the drill just short of the north edge of the concrete vault, dug in 2014 so STP could reach and lift the 4million-pound front end for repairs. The winning bid from STP called for the tunnel to be completed this month.
Yawn.... (Score:5, Funny)
Boring.
Re:Yawn.... (Score:5, Funny)
Boring.
You're just digging yourself into a a hole with those puns,
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He'll probably get the shaft for it.
Heh, I had *two* Rum and Cokes last night. I was pretty plowed, actually. They were mostly rum with a splash of Coke. LOL I'll email you in a bit. I never did finish it yesterday.
Ah well. I suck.
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Behemoth boring machine... (Score:5, Funny)
Well, I guess if it hasn't done anything since 2013 it is certainly a machine capable of boring even a behemoth!
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Maybe the technology will eventually become useful: building underground cities when the ozone is gone, or even tunneling for off planet settlements.
But shite, even if nothing much comes of it, it is still spending the money on science and technology in stead of war and repression.
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They could have moved faster using a bunch of guys with picks and shovels.
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They could have moved faster using a bunch of guys with picks and shovels.
Uhh, you really think a bunch of guys with no machinery beyond picks and shovels could dig out 60' x 60' x 1.5' of solid rock, hardened earth, mud, and sand, all while laying behind them the steal support rings and wire mesh and concrete walls to support the tunnel, AND relocate all that dug up material away from the dig site?
To be comparable however that bunch of guys with only picks and shovels would need to complete the entire 2000' tunnel on time in a six year window.
(Delays due to politicians halting a
Meh (Score:2, Insightful)
On paper you may be correct. But in real life, the "machine" did 1 mile in nearly 3 years. The theory doesn't survive reality. You can't build a real tunnel with "it should work"s.
Compare this to the Panama Canal: 48 miles in 10 years, with the most advanced tech being steam-powered excavating machines. Not underground, but there was a mountain to go through, water to deal with, and all the jungle stuff (diseases, insects, animals).
This Seattle thing is the worst case ever of machine worshipping and enginee
Re: Meh (Score:2, Insightful)
Yea, when building the Panama canal they had an endless supply of expendable bodies. When worker safety is actually a thing, large projects actually require care and planning.
Re:Behemoth boring machine... (Score:5, Insightful)
Uhh, you really think a bunch of guys with no machinery beyond picks and shovels could dig out 60' x 60' x 1.5' of solid rock, hardened earth, mud, and sand, all while laying behind them the steal support rings and wire mesh and concrete walls to support the tunnel, AND relocate all that dug up material away from the dig site?
Please understand I'm not meaning to advocate for the "picks and shovels" side of the argument. But FYI - Seattle already has a 110-year-old train tunnel (the "Great Northern Tunnel"), dug with picks and shovels and dynamite, that runs through pretty much the exact same area and types of soils. This new tunnel is actually going to pass under the Great Northern tunnel!
I find it funny because a lot of people who simply don't want to spend money are using the argument that the complex soils in the area make tunneling impractical. They obviously don't know about the existing tunnel either.
In reality, the fundamental problem here is the people making decisions tried to save a little money by digging one giant pipe rather than going with the more typical two-bore twin tunnels. When you push boundaries there are always additional risks.
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The new tunnel is circle 60' in diameter, compared to the 30' semicircular train tunnel (8 times bigger), and the new tunnel is 1.75 miles long compared to one mile(.75x8=+6). Plus, the floor of the old tunnel was flat and only required laying train tracks. The new tunnel is circular and will require a double roadway and utility spaces.
If the new tunnel was dug with picks, shovels, and dynamite
Re:Behemoth boring machine... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Exactly, why isn't our crumbling infrastructure our number one priority?? In my state this year we've had 5 bridge collapses, ecoli in our water, and only 4 hours of electricity per day! It's like living in a third world country!!!!
Re:Behemoth boring machine... (Score:4, Interesting)
In a country who's infrastructure is crumbling; roads, bridges, fresh/waste water systems, electrical grid - failure to fix public works projects IS a threat to our security
The scaremongering about our "crumbling infrastructure" comes mostly from ASCE [wikipedia.org], construction companies, and politicians trying to get pork for their district. These are all special interest groups with their snout in the trough. There is little evidence that our infrastructure is actually getting worse. On a per capita basis, infrastructure failures such as bridge collapses, are less common than they were a generation ago.
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You mean spending money on imaginary wars and military adventurism right.
Re:Behemoth boring machine... (Score:5, Insightful)
spending mountains of my money on worthless municipal make-work projects rather than defending our country
Maybe we should be spending more on mental health.
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I figure they probably work at Boeing and are mad that the money isn't going to them.
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>worthless municipal make-work projects
If any city needed a tunnel, Seattle is it. It is far from worthless.
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>worthless municipal make-work projects
If any city needed a tunnel, Seattle is it. It is far from worthless.
That tunnel will make a nice salt-water reservoir after the Cascadia subduction zone mega-quake and subsequent tsunami hits.
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>worthless municipal make-work projects
If any city needed a tunnel, Seattle is it. It is far from worthless.
That tunnel will make a nice salt-water reservoir after the Cascadia subduction zone mega-quake and subsequent tsunami hits.
I'm rather hoping I'm on a business trip somewhere when that happens. At least that's the extent of my Earthquake preparation.
Re: Behemoth boring machine... (Score:1)
Lol defending our country? Right. Because the jsf, drones, security theater, etc etc etc actually make the world safer. Freedom for all of humanity? Yep. We're so on that. Talk about conceit. We don't even know the names of countries that repress their people until they suicide bomb us because we accidentally blow up a school. I'm thinking I'll help you pack. Take your world police with you so the rest of us can perform the science that makes the world a better place instead of pretending for
Another.... (Score:3, Funny)
Another boring story on slashdot.
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Hot story from 2013!
Yep (Score:1)
Another boring story on slashdot.
You know the drill..
Re:Yep (Score:5, Funny)
Another boring story on slashdot.
You know the drill..
This does not augur well for the New Year.
How did it overheat (Score:2, Insightful)
I understand that when it hit the metal casing, it overheated. Couple of questions I've got that after looking, didn't find the answer:
I thought this was capable of boring through rock, how come it couldn't go through a metal pipe? Ok, it can't go through the pipe, how could this thing not have tons of sensors capable of detecting the overheating issue?
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They disagree on this. The tunnel people claim it's the pipe, the state people (who put the pipe there) say it's not the pipe. I don't think we'll ever know.
Re:How did it overheat (Score:4, Interesting)
See also stuff designed for "soft rock" suddenly hitting Basalt.
Re:How did it overheat (Score:5, Informative)
Rock is more brittle than steel. Hit rock with a hard enough cutter blade, pushing with enough force, and you will chip away at it. Hit a malleable and tough steel pipe with the same cutter blade and the same amount of force, and the blade may dig in to the steel and get caught in it.
The operator doesn't exactly have visibility into the obstruction, so when progress stops, he may not recognize what's going wrong. He can add more force in an attempt to break through. Add enough force and something will eventually give, but there's no guarantee if it will be the obstruction that gives way, or the engine, or the power train, or the frame of his machine.
And what kinds of sensors do you think you can deploy on the face of a giant cutting disk that will survive the thousands of horsepower of force mashing it into the earth? (Trick question, the answer is none.) About all they can effectively monitor is from the back side of the cutting face. That means indirect measurements only, like the amount of power, rotational speed, rate of travel, temperature of the cutting face, sound of the cutting face, and the composition of the tailings. It's not exactly like looking out the windshield and seeing you're about to drive into a big steel pipe. The amount of power is regulated by the operator, but what are his options when it stops going forward? It's not like he can back up and turn left to go around it. He can pretty much decide "add power" or "stay stuck".
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And what kinds of sensors do you think you can deploy on the face of a giant cutting disk that will survive the thousands of horsepower of force mashing it into the earth? (Trick question, the answer is none.)
Actually, I would have imagined that they'd come up with a way to measure conductivity and capacitance while in operation, and also that they would periodically stop and use some kind of ultrasound equipment to determine the composition of the material ahead. The latter is arguably the more plausible. Is that being done? If not, why not? If so, why didn't it find a big metal pipe?
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Having done a whole lot of work, across this country and in others, specifically with with government workers - I can answer your questions with one word:
Municipality.
But, some more of the story... No, I'm not saying all government is bad. I am saying that, for whatever reason, highway/transportation departments do some amazing things but sometimes they're amazingly inept.
Here's a Wikipedia article about the project:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Here's a section on the WSDOT site about the history (and h
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If anyone's in the area and wants to find out who did the work then I just might be able to get some sort of preview about real expectations (those expectations not given in the city council meetings or in press releases) and find out any scuttlebutt - though it might be a bit dated, I suspect the modeling company and/or traffic engineers have someone either on-call or on-site and they'll be capable of recommending, designing, and remodeling - or at least collecting the data and pushing it back to be done on big iron.
http://www.tunneltalk.com/Alaskan-Way-May10-RFP-released.php
With determination to maintain momentum, State officials met deadline this week and issued a request for proposals to build a bored tunnel replacement of the Alaskan Way Viaduct in Seattle. Three international pre-qualified teams now have until October to return proposals ahead of a planned award of contract in January.TBM tunnelling of the 54ft (15-16m) diameter bore could start in 2013 towards a targeted official opening on December 31st, 2015.
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Thanks - that pointed me in the right direction. They did it, for the most part, in-house. A recently deceased Ralph Iboshi was brought on with the design team. He passed away back in 2012(ish), as I recall. He was with KPFF (they had at least one good employ - namely Mr. Iboshi) but KPFF's name is not on any of the documents that I'm finding. I'm only finding Mr. Iboshi's name.
It took me a minute to make the connection but you can find him listed on page 24 in this PDF:
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/projec... [wa.gov]
But,
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To take sonic readings, they'd have to shut the machine off first to eliminate the noise it would generate; even then, road noise from the surface might be too disruptive. Or maybe it was all muck, with no good way to ping it.
They certainly should have been aware of the location of the pipe, as it was purportedly documented in the spec. Maybe there was an error in the doc, or maybe the engineers failed to notify the bore operator, or maybe the operators just weren't paying attention.
They might be able to me
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A couple of people have mentioned sonar. It might be possible to peek into the upcoming rock, but the machine would have to be silenced to execute the tests. That might be more downtime than they want, given the normal course of boring. Maybe the operators could have pinged the rock when they first encountered the obstruction, but maybe it was already too late by that time.
Oh, and one other method of control they have is depth of cut. I believe they can adjust each cutting head assembly as to how deep they
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Would a sonar do the trick? It can be placed on the surface and send pings that will help measure the density of materials on the machine's path.
Didn't they hit a pipe specified in the contract? (Score:2)
Re:Didn't they hit a pipe specified in the contrac (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes. But the path of the tunnel runs through what is essentially an old land fill. So the machine should have been designed to deal with old steam boilers, scrap iron, chunks of concrete/rebar, etc.
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Yes. But the path of the tunnel runs through what is essentially an old land fill. So the machine should have been designed to deal with old steam boilers, scrap iron, chunks of concrete/rebar, etc.
It should have been designed so it could have been repaired in place if it broke. Currently waiting for it to break down again under some skyscraper in downtown.
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Boring article (Score:2)
Get it? LOL hahahahaha
Pretty smooth so far (Score:1)
Let's see if they can fail as badly as this [wikipedia.org] project. There's still plenty of opportunity.
Not again (Score:2)
As a Seattleite, Bertha has been a huge, expensive disappointment so far, but we all hope in our hearts that eventually this *&$%@ thing will get the job done.
And maybe, just maybe they'll come away with some lessons learned form this kabillion dollar, 0.5mph joyride.
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And maybe, just maybe they'll come away with some lessons learned form this kabillion dollar, 0.5mph joyride.
Don't you mean 0.5mpy joyride?
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And maybe, just maybe they'll come away with some lessons learned form this kabillion dollar, 0.5mph joyride.
Don't you mean 0.5mpy joyride?
Uhh, yeah. That's probably more like it. Thank god that thing costs a fortune or I'd really feel cheated.
Re:Not again (Score:4, Interesting)
And maybe, just maybe they'll come away with some lessons learned form this kabillion dollar, 0.5mph joyride.
Maybe one of those lessons is "there are risks when you try to save money by pushing the boundaries with new, untested drilling technology".
Meanwhile the tunnels Sound Transit has been recently digging in Seattle, following ho-hum old smaller bore twin-tunnel principles, are going well - they're under budget and ahead of schedule. I am really looking forward to taking light rail to UW in a month or two! No more sitting on a bus that's stuck in traffic gridlock...
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Meanwhile the tunnels Sound Transit has been recently digging in Seattle, following ho-hum old smaller bore twin-tunnel principles, are going well - they're under budget and ahead of schedule
Those bastards. What can we do about this? Can we involve them in some awesome new-technology pilot project that costs billions, or are we doomed to have a successful outcome?
Did they find the "Object"? (Score:2)
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What was blocking the tunnel machine? It was the shallowest part of the tunnel. It could be an iron ship sunk 100 or 150 years ago.
RTFL[ink], it is right there in the summary. The digger was stopped by a metal pipe.
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I hope it is not one of those Martian colony ships. Or since this is Seattle, maybe I hope it is.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt00... [imdb.com]
Just another example. . . (Score:1)
of private industry doing it better than government. Sitting around for two years doing nothing and still getting paid. What a job.
Sounds a lot like insurance companies. Force people to pay up but never do the thing you've been paid to do. The greatest scam on Earth, next to religion.
Don't worry Seattle taxpayers, this private company will use as much of your tax dollars as it takes to get the job done.
Gee (Score:1)
Whatever happened to using good old dynamite to clear the obstruction?
Lesser Seattle (Score:1)
Last week a fixed steel arm in the front end broke (Score:2)
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Yeah but they have baristas [komonews.com] dressed in bikinis in drive-thru coffee stands!
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Yeah but they have baristas [komonews.com] dressed in bikinis in drive-thru coffee stands!
Yes, yes we do. :)
Although we call them "Horizontal Hospitality Workers".
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Heh... Everett. They've got a Naval base there. I have been there but I don't recall any Bikini workers. This was the late 1970s. They only had whores.
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Heh... Everett. They've got a Naval base there. I have been there but I don't recall any Bikini workers. This was the late 1970s. They only had whores.
Oh, there are lots of Bikini Baristas around, you hardly have to even look for them. Probably 50% of the little independent places feature cute gals wearing nothing but undies or bikinis or whatever.
I mean, that's what I hear, I certainly wouldn't know from *cough* personal experience.
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I don't think there are any around here until Spring Break comes around and then there are just hoards of chicks with little clothing on and they tend to spill over onto my private section. I don't mind or anything but I have a little lady with me this time. I think it might be prudent to go back north before the middle of February hits. My kids have spent more time here than I have but I've come down to enjoy the view during Spring Break. I'm watching the sunset, of course. Yeah, that's the view that I spe
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I was there visiting around 2008, the TV made it sound like the Bikini Baristas were just starting, I did notice that the others Baristas weren't above showing more cleavage when the tip jar was put.
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I was out that way in the 1970s and then, for a short spell, again in the early 1990s. Other than that, I've been that way for a few Microsoft events but those are kind of in the opposite direction so I spent no additional time in Everett. I did have a younger friend who was in the Navy and stationed there. His ship was the USS Stennis and that was her home harbor. I've forgotten which carrier group she was assigned to but it might have been the Ford.
I have no knowledge beyond that and I don't rightly recal
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Seattle consistently ranks in the top three US cities on a whole host of criteria, and has the second-highest percentage of the population with graduate degrees (after San Francisco), so probably not exactly the stupidest motherfuckers on Earth.
Have you ever been to San Antonio, Orlando, Louisville or Tampa?
Re:Seattle taxpayers (Score:5, Funny)
Seattle consistently ranks in the top three US cities on a whole host of criteria, and has the second-highest percentage of the population with graduate degrees (after San Francisco), so probably not exactly the stupidest motherfuckers on Earth.
Have you ever been to San Antonio, Orlando, Louisville or Tampa?
But the traffic sucks. They should build a tunnel or something.
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There were fewer before you got there.
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Pfft... Pope, I hold a Ph.D... I'll let that sink in for a minute.
Good? Alright. No, having a Ph.D is not indicative of intelligence by default. I know some highly educated idiots and, sometimes, put myself into that category.
However, I concede your point about San Antonio, Orlando, Louisville, and Tampa. I will, on the other hand, offer this:
http://www.online-phd-programs... [online-phd-programs.org]
And, because someone has to, I'll add that Seattle is probably home of the most hipsters and SJWs! (Someone had to throw that out ther
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That is my point.
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Have you ever been to San Antonio, Orlando, Louisville or Tampa?
Stand by. We're not quite sure where Bertha will surface.
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Seattle consistently ranks in the top three US cities on a whole host of criteria, and has the second-highest percentage of the population with graduate degrees (after San Francisco), so probably not exactly the stupidest motherfuckers on Earth.
Have you ever been to San Antonio, Orlando, Louisville or Tampa?
I've been to all those places.
San Antonio was a ring of decay surrounding a river themed tourist trap.
Orlando is Disney. Enough said.
Louisville. When I asked the concierge for a vegetarian restaurant (I was traveling with an Indian colleague) he suggested the steak house across the road.
Tampa? Would you like some murder with your excess humidity?
Seattle isn't Portland. But it's a place I wouldn't mind living.
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If there is any doubt about this, consider the fact that they voted to tax themselves to pay $300 million for a new football stadium for a team owned by one of the richest men in the world with a net worth of $20 billion and owner of a $200 million yacht.
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Seattle's taxpayers have to be the most stupid motherfuckers on Earth.
Yeah, like we have a fucking choice? The Seattle city council and the jackoffs in Olympia spend our money however they feel like it with ZERO responsibility to the citizens and taxpayers here. Pretty much like most cities, frankly. They do what they want, when they want, and ignore anything we tell them.
Witness the fucking toll lanes on 405- NO ONE wanted these fucking things, they government went back on their promise to add a 3rd lane to make up for the two lanes they took away, and now traffic is a night
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Artificial scarcity is what it is all about these days.
Even in Canada, where I am.
This is all done to encourage transit or high density development. Not that those aren't worthy goals, but I'd prefer they actually tried doing things in a positive manner but you know... proper planning, building good transit... instead of making life so miserable, people are forced to change their ways.
They're also doing tolling here, and mandating density... all the while... not much new transit. Oh they keep saying it's co
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Artificial scarcity is what it is all about these days.
Yep, dry up or kill off a resource, then charge to provide it back to the victims you took it from. That'll be the new hot business model for the next couple of decades, until the people that think this shit up are stuffed into 55-gallon drums and dropped overboard on a dark moonless night.
Oh wait, did I say that last part out loud?
Re:Seattle taxpayers (Score:5, Interesting)
Seattle taxpayers are not paying for this project, except insofar as they are taxpayers to the State and the Feds, which are. "Local" funding is a small percentage of the $3 billion project. Further:
1. I-5 is a parking lot. Traffic congestion in Seattle is 5th worse in the nation.
2. The current Alaskan Way Viaduct is an ugly concrete behemoth.
3. The current Alaskan Way Viaduct is going to fall down.
4. The current Alaskan Way Viaduct carries 110,000 vehicles a day.
5. We can all ride bicycles because the city has closed one entire lane of most downtown streets to accommodate it.