Microsoft: Only the Latest Version of Windows Will Support New CPU Generations (windows.com) 458
Joe_Dragon sends news from Microsoft about how the company will support Windows now and in the future. The company says PCs built with Intel's Skylake chip, and other new architectures in the future, will require the latest version of Windows for support. This doesn't take effect right away; Windows 7 and 8.1 will be supported on older chips until their planned end-of-life dates, in 2020 and 2023 respectively. They'll also be supported on a list of current Skylake devices for the next 18 months. After that, only the latest version of Windows will support integration between the operating system and new CPU features. "For example, Windows 10 will be the only supported Windows platform on Intel's upcoming 'Kaby Lake' silicon, Qualcomm's upcoming '8996' silicon, and AMD's upcoming 'Bristol Ridge' silicon." Microsoft also mentioned that for new supported systems, the company will "ensure all drivers will be on Windows Update with published BIOS/UEFI upgrading tools." The submitter adds, "Putting BIOS/UEFI updates in to the Windows 10 auto- / forced-update system may open Microsoft to paying $600-$1,000+ to replace broken laptops. If Windows tries to update BIOS/UEFI at a bad/risky time (like during power instability in a big storm), it could lead to an update loop or worse."
no thanks (Score:3, Informative)
wow microsoft, you are really working OVERTIME to make sure we all really hate and despise your horrible joke of an operating system.
just say no to windoz 10
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wow microsoft, you are really working OVERTIME to make sure we all really hate and despise your horrible joke of an operating system.
Actually in this announcement for those people that are thinking of moving to Windows 10, the only new piece of information is:
a) It'll fully support all the features of upcoming processors.
b) The complicated process of BIOS updates are now done through Windows Update.
A win in every category, but don't let some good news get in the way of a good old generic Windows 10 hatefest.
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Just realize that this is just a test bench to prepare the hardware to become windows-locked so you won't be able to run any alternative OS.
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I don't think windows will run on UltraSparc and I doubt it runs well on Arm.
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That's probably right, but Sparc computers aren't cheap and Arm aren't really competing on the desktop yet.
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They don't need to. They can just wait for the high-end desktop applications to move to mobile and augmented reality.
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Intel hardware to become windows-locked so you won't be able to run any alternative OS.
I don't think windows will run on UltraSparc and I doubt it runs well on Arm.
There have been headlines for some articles that implied that the latest Intel processors would only run Windows 10. My first thought was Apple might have to build Windows 10 machines or get a different company to make its processors.
Re:no thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
Ya know, NT used to run on Sparc, PowerPC, Alpha and MIPS.
If those versions had sold, Microsoft would have kept selling them. The market spoke. The users made their choice.
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Endpoints?
That useless replacement for devices needs to be strangled in the crib.
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Just remember that the tradeoff in Linux is constant breakage and the need to fix glitches manually. Think twice if you want to waste your life in that. Is the Windows 10 datamining that bad after all?
The fact is that Linux works nicely on servers and phones, but the PC desktop is a smoking mess with quality assurance outsourced to users.
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Just remember that the tradeoff in Windows is constant breakage and the need to fix glitches manually.
FTFY.
Honestly, if you think your assertion is the right way around then you really haven't tried the pair recently. I've just recently been called upon to do some work moving data out of a Microsoft SQL d/b into some pre-defined XLS spreadsheets. Sounds simple doesn't it? It took two of our software support guys two days to manage to find a magic combination of Microsoft products which would actually interwork together in the advertised fashion. In contrast, installing, configuring and starting all the
Re: no thanks (Score:5, Funny)
You must be pretty thick if it took you two days to do that. It's a piece of piss. Linux could've taken Microsoft to the cleaners had the holy warriors been prepared to work together but instead we have fragmentation, drivers that break from version to version and now systemd. I used to love using Linux but I got sick of trying to get it to do what I want. I probably could figure out but I can't be arsed to spend hours or days dicking about with something that should just work.
Yeah, When I tried Linux mint, My truck engine blew up, My dog ran away, my wife left me for the neighbor's son, the bank repossessed my house, the south 40 caught fire, and all my milch cows went dry. And systemd ate my balls.
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If this is the reason why you want to move to Linux, then good luck. There are plenty of reasons to choose to use Linux, but support of new architectures without being forced to upgrade the OS isn't one.
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Linux does the same thing. Support for newer chips is only supported in newer linux kernels.
Re:no thanks (Score:5, Informative)
With stunts like this, Linux is going to win by default. Unless you really like throwing away old but perfectly-capable computers just because a new copy of Windows comes out, the only other use is to reformat the disk and put Linux on it. Relatively few common tasks other than graphics-intensive ones (games and rendering work) are beneath the abilities of machines 10 years old or more. If you have an OS that still works with the hardware.
I think this announcement is stupid too, but you do realize it doesn't say Windows won't work on older hardware right? It means older Windows versions won't work as well on newer hardware. It is the exact opposite of the problem you are claiming. What everyone here is worried about is being forced to upgrade Windows every time they upgrade their processor.
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What did I miss here?
Re: no thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
The XP effect is what you missed.
People got used to 12 year old operating systems on new hardware and are flabbergasted and shocked that a 6 to 7 year old OS before UEFI, USB 3/type-c, nvme ssds, NFC printers, dynamic storage acceleration, advanced power states, ddr 4 ram, can't support these without hacks and significant work by Intel with drivers bolted on to an old platform.
Shit you needed a proprietary sata driver for freaking XP as the install CD couldn't even a hard disk for its last 6 years of life??! Windows 7 is heading into this territory folks now.
Historically PCs needed a OS upgrade every 3 years.
I know I will be modded down and flamed but come on folks. This is Slashdot for those that love technology. Not a forum that is anti technology that fears change. You can still run Windows 7. Your old PC is fine and haswell still is made and fully supports 7!
If you want new things it makes sense a newer OS from this decade should support it. FYI the pro version has hyper-v and you can run old software fine.
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When the change don't actually benefit the user in any way, its quite justified to be afraid of it.
It's like claiming that "you're afraid of change" because all chair makers decided to replace the foam with glass shards.
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"they're implying... just a guess here... that something along the lines of a person with a legal copy of say win 7, buys new processor and is forced to upgrade to windows 10 to use it."
And what's the problem?
I hate Microsoft as anyone else around here, and my stanza on how long software should be supported is much stronger than the average here, since I think software should be supported forever (as long as you are in business) and still don't see the problem here: do you want new features (like being able
Re: Linux is getting much, much worse, too. (Score:3)
Next to my usual ubuntu studio setup, I find win10 closeto unusable. Windows has got worse since win2k, and continues to do so.
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systemd? Seriously? Get over it man! And Gnome 3 and KDE stuff as well.
You are trolling here. Your argument is lame. You blame Gnome 3 and systemd to make Linux be like Windows and you conclude Windows 10 will then be found much better by people. Really? You are just trying to coat your old complains with new frosting.
However, I believe Microsoft is perfectly entitled to drop support for newer processors in old versions of Windows. Supporting old versions of Windows cost money and doesn't gather money anymo
Re:Linux is getting much, much worse, too. (Score:5, Insightful)
"I believe Microsoft is perfectly entitled to drop support for newer processors in old versions of Windows."
Even more: that's not dropping support. "Dropping" implies something was supported and it is supported no more. If doing something, like being able to boot up on processor X, was never in the feature list, you are not "dropping" anything by still being unable to boot up on processor X.
A different issue, and one that, given Microsoft history, wouldn't surprise me, would be if Microsoft were to go out of their way to add an "update" to test for the new processor and refuse to boot on that.
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systemd? Seriously? Get over it man! And Gnome 3 and KDE stuff as well.
Don't tell me what to like and hate, "i do wah i want!" :P
You are trolling here. Your argument is lame.
Quite right though regarding the parent post.
There is plenty to hate in systemd, there's no need to make up lies to imply its worse than it is (and probably gnome3/kde too, though I rarely use DEs enough to have any complaints)
However, I believe Microsoft is perfectly entitled to drop support for newer processors in old versions of Windows. Supporting old versions of Windows cost money and doesn't gather money anymore.
Now there I must disagree, and do so for the exact reason you listed as a counter-argument
*IF* Microsoft went out of their way and spent time, money, and man hours to *write new code* specifically for the purpose of removing an
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"Support" vs "Use all the bells and whistles"? (Score:4, Insightful)
As long as the chips adhere to the X86/x64 standards, how relevant is this announcement? Yes, newly introduced extensions and features may not be backported to Windows 7, but unless this OS will not run at all on next-gen silicone, this is nothing but FUD.
Am I missing something here? Do Skylake et al. really require substantial modificaitons to existing OSs?
Re:"Support" vs "Use all the bells and whistles"? (Score:5, Insightful)
Going forward, as new silicon generations are introduced, they will require the latest Windows platform at that time for support.
If Windows 10 is required for support, it means Windows <10 is unsupported. Whether that means it will simply be unsupported and any problems you run into will be your own or if it simply won't run, ask Microsoft. But it won't be supported and it certainly won't use all the bells and whistles - though I don't think anyone asked for that.
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See the CPU bug of last week where a math operation can cause SkyLake processors to crash. It can be worked around with a BIOS upgrade that avoids the problem by using a trap to escape the crash. Things like that need BIOS updates on systems in the field. A lot happens under the hood the regular users are not aware of.
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How is that relevant? The entire BIOS update bit was only talking about BIOS updates coming to Windows Update. It doesn't say anything about you not applying your own in the future.
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That's what I'm worried about and maybe the primary target for Microsoft isn't old versions of Windows but alternate operating systems. If the change stops older versions, what's there to say that it won't block anything else as well?
How long will you all put up with this shit? (Score:2, Insightful)
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I will personally put up with it until someone releases a solid, AAA FPS for linux. I only need one good one, with the promise of sequels & updates.
Why a CIO or CEO would put up with it is beyond me.
I recently forced 200 people to switch from Office 2003 to Libre Office. They weren't particularly happy about it but the world didn't end.
Re:2020 (Score:2)
I'll put up with it until 2020, when windows 7 is no longer updated. That seems reasonable, since I can block the telemetry patches.
And security researchers are having a field day looking for new telemetry patches, so I'm not even worried about surprises.
Normal precautions until then.
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Yes maybe by 2020 will be the year of the Linux Desktop!
What might happen by 2020? (Score:2)
I realise you're joking, but one of the interesting possibilities on that sort of time scale might be for Google to start targetting desktop/laptop PCs with some variation of Android, in which case we really might see mass market Linux on the desktop. It would be interesting to see how that would affect the whole client/server/cloud strategy Google have been pursuing in recent years.
Some other plausible moves in the industry on that timescale might be changes at Apple leading to much increased desktop/lapto
Re:How long will you all put up with this shit? (Score:5, Insightful)
trying to sneak in their 'telemetery' (read as: spyware/malware) updates onto your systems so they can collect your personal data, steal your files, and whatever else it is they're doing that qualifies as cybercrime.
Facepalm. That's just overblown trash-talk. Microsoft collects basic telemetry like system uptime, installed updates, and how many times you have used UWP apps. They don't touch your personal files and they don't know what you do inside apps.
Re:How long will you all put up with this shit? (Score:4, Funny)
How do you know about that?
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It's easy enough to find out. I had an old desktop PC running Windows XP, and which hadn't been dejunkified for years. When it came to replacing the OS, it was time to have an OS demolishing party. Start by saving and transferring away all the files that needed to be saved. That left a user account with several gigabytes of data unaccounted for, as well as loads of system logs (uptime, applications used, driver loading) that were choking the defragmenter. Turns out all those "locked and unmovable files" wer
Re:How long will you all put up with this shit? (Score:5, Insightful)
So here's the problem with that: it's none of their fucking business unless we opt in.
I don't give a shit what Microsoft wants. It should be up to me if my computer sends any fucking data to Microsoft or not.
I am stuck using their OS for some stuff. I should not be forced to send them any fucking data about my fucking usage patterns.
Microsoft is accelerating the rate at which people are going to aggressively look for alternatives, but they don't seem to give a shit.
Basic telemetry my ass. Trash talk my ass.
Go ahead, be a fanboi apologist. But don't downplay that Microsoft has decided they don't need our fucking permission to do things to OUR fucking computers.
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Well, if you want the best possible privacy, then I can agree that Windows 10 is not the best choice.
Here's the deal for myself: I'm more willing to put up with some usage pattern datamining than wasting my life with fixing Linux problems. I'm just trying to be practical and weighing the benefits and tradeoffs.
Re:How long will you all put up with this shit? (Score:4)
Aggresively looking for alternatives? Well, I've made my mind to stop using Windows when using 7 is no longer viable but sadly most people don't give a shit. That's why then can keep doing these things
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It's good to know that at least one Slashdot reader still believes in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy.
Re:How long will you all put up with this shit? (Score:4, Informative)
> They don't touch your personal files and they don't know what you do inside apps.
Ok, so first of all, here's the Windows 10 Eula. It points you to the Microsoft Privacy Statement.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-u... [microsoft.com]
And here's the document it's talking about:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-u... [microsoft.com]
So, lets go into this a bit. First, do they know what you do inside apps?
"The data we collect depends on the services and features you use, and includes the following..... ...Interests and favorites. We collect data about your interests and favorites, such as the teams you follow in a sports app, the stocks you track in a finance app, or the favorite cities you add to a weather app. In addition to those you explicitly provide, your interests and favorites may also be inferred or derived from other data we collect. "
Ok, so AS EXAMPLES, they mention how they monitor and track what you do inside apps. THE STOCKS YOU FUCKING TRACK IN A FINANCE APP. That's their goddamned EXAMPLE! Like that's the least offensive thing they could come up with, or something.
It is unambiguous that they know what you do inside apps.
Ok, next point, and this one is harder. Do they "touch your personal files"? Lets look:
Well, if you don't turn off "Input Personalization", then we KNOW it grabs everything you type, write, and say. But lets assume you DO turn that off.
Under Telemetry, we find this (it's pretty big):
---"
Usage and connectivity data. Microsoft regularly collects basic information about your Windows device including usage data, app compatibility data, and network and connectivity information. This data is transmitted to Microsoft and stored with one or more unique identifiers that can help us recognize an individual user on an individual device and understand the device's service issues and use patterns. The data we collect includes:
Configuration data, including the manufacturer of your device, model, number of processors, display size and resolution, date, region and language settings, and other data about the capabilities of the device.
The software (including drivers and firmware supplied by device manufacturers), installed on the device.
Performance and reliability data, such as how quickly programs respond to input, how many problems you experience with an app or device, or how quickly information is sent or received over a network connection.
App use data for apps that run on Windows (including Microsoft and third party apps), such as how frequently and for how long you use apps, which app features you use most often, how often you use Windows Help and Support, which services you use to sign into apps, and how many folders you typically create on your desktop.
Network and connection data, such as the device's IP address, number of network connections in use, and data about the networks you connect to, such as mobile networks, Bluetooth, and identifiers (BSSID and SSID), connection requirements and speed of Wi-Fi networks you connect to.
Other hardware devices connected to the device.
"---
Hrm, that sounds like some personal files would be in there, but it's not quite clear.
There's this part:
---"
Finally, we will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails in Outlook.com, or files in private folders on OneDrive), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to:
- comply with applicable law or respond to valid legal process, including from law enforcement or other government agencies;
- protect our customers, for example to prev
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> I'm still waiting for actual evidence that what is collected and sent is somehow nefarious.
Why?
The last few years have seen the justification of several things that were considered "tin foil hat" before. The odds of every single undesirable corporate or government happening being exposed right now seems very low- there's almost assuredly more strange stuff going on.
"Trust now, hope we didn't fuck up" is a terrible strategy. Most importantly, having all your keystrokes, contacts, emails, envelope info
Re:How long will you all put up with this shit? (Score:5, Insightful)
Most importantly, having all your keystrokes
More trash-talk.
Having all the keystrokes sent is another myth. Windows can send some typing and inking samples to improve recognition. It's not a full keylogger. They also very clearly ask during setup [extremetech.com] if you want to use it.
Look, guys. Windows 10 certainly does not offer perfect privacy, but it's not a monster which steals all your data either. Most of the stuff is just some basic hardware statistics and settings synchronization across devices.
Re: How long will you all put up with this shit? (Score:3)
No. It is cortana. Yes you send keystrokes when you do an internet search
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They could delete everything at any time if they wanted to.
Rubbish.
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therefore it's not inconcievable that MS could in theory make everyone download an update that allows them remote control over your computer.
No, they are not going to deploy such update. It would be really bad for business if discovered. Microsoft is not taking the risk. They have a bunch of high-profile customers that would get extremely angry.
Re:How long will you all put up with this shit? (Score:5, Interesting)
The preceding is my opinion. Don't like it? Tough, deal with it
Its mine too, I supported/used MS products for 19+ years as a Windows/Linux sysadmin. When I retired in 2010, I decided I'd had enough of Redmond's *stuff* and since I'd been using Linux since 1995 (Slackware, if you must know), I decided ALL of my systems going forward would be running Linux. After seeing Windows 10 (and playing with it quite a bit during preview), I couldn't be happier about my decision to flush MS products. However, since I'm retired and *too* many people in the neighborhood knew I was one of those "IT geeks", I've become the defacto tech support for my church and neighborhood. I've had quite a few people ask me about this new Windows 10 they're hearing about, and I proceed to show them chapter/verse of just how insidious it is. I did testing where I "castrated" a clean install of 10, including local account, and a bunch of stuff turned off in gpedit.msc, then loaded rpcapd on my router and pointed Wireshark at it.. Even "castrated" with all of the obvious spyware crap turned off, the Wireshark packet buffer showed a scary amount of "calling home" still.. Even the folks still on 7/8/8.1 are getting the "telemetry" crap shoved down their throats.. Since my testing, I've had several neighbors come to me with new systems bought over the holidays asking what can they do to minimize the damage. I give them an Ubuntu LiveCD and show them how to boot it, and have them work with it for a week or so and then ask them if they'd like to switch to it permanently. So far, everybody who has tried the LiveCD "preview" has gone for the "upgrade". I normally suggest, on a new-inwarrantee system, that they spend $40 or so for another hard drive to install Linux on, keeping the original in case of warrantee issues. As more and more people find out about Windows 10, I suspect I'd be able to start a small business doing upgrades..
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God, I love /. users. They are hilarious.
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I use Linux, OS X, and Windows. As long as the applications that a user needs/wants are available for a given platform, there isn't a huge difference to the end user.
As you mention, the differences are quite significant if the user digs a bit deeper. If they attempt to keep up with technology news, or dig around to discover the privacy settings and how updates are managed, it is quite obvious that things are amiss. Yet I highly doubt that many people do that since most people seem to treat technology as
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Iceland didn't put up with MS bullshit. During their financial crisis, a number of companies went bankrupt. The Microsoft license resellers reported back to Microsoft that they had to void the licenses due to bankruptcies. However Microsoft claimed they had sold the licenses to the resellers and that teh resellers should pay Microsoft for the remaining duration of the already signed license contracts. The resellers (usually competitors) spoke with each other and decided to all declare bankruptcy due to fail
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I'm going to put up with it (while gnashing my teeth and doing whatever I can to mitigate the damage) as long as the software I have to use all day is not available for any other platform.
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Windows user here. I'm sticking with it for now. Running Windows 7 and 8.1, testing 10.
My reasoning is mostly due to compatibility. A lot of embedded/FPGA development stuff is either Windows only or sucks on Linux. Plus, I know Windows inside and out, and it just isn't bad enough to make me want to switch.
Linux is fine, I used it for a few years on a laptop, but I rarely reboot and switching OS just to use some tools I need seems pointless.
By the way, I checked out the alleged spying in Windows 10 with Wire
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Hey shithead.. If you want to play "ad hominem", why do you hide behind AC? Don't have the balls to put your actual handle behind your bullshit?
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On some dimensions, such as hardware support, broad features, and cost, Apple is definitely behind. On other dimensions, such as privacy and security, Apple is solid, and Microsoft is a bag of congealed liquid. What do you value? Remember Linux and BSDs are options too.
Basically, if you need a program that only chose to support Windows, you'll need to find some way to run that program- perhaps a dedicated Windows box is even necessary. But you wouldn't want to do your emails and stuff on that.
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> that actually runs all the programs and games I presently enjoy
You get that Windows doesn't run your games, right? Microsoft doesn't support your programs? What actually happens is, the devs only build those programs and games for Windows. Windows didn't support them, THEY SUPPORTED WINDOWS.
I'm pretty sure this doesn't change your opinion, which is fine. But at least say the right thing- "Until the programs and games I enjoy are written for Linux, blah blah".
It's not Linux's job to run a Windows bi
Re:What the fuck do they use instead?! (Score:4, Insightful)
Most people don't actually use any applications other than the browser these days, chromeos is actually an ideal choice for a significant proportion of users.
There's also a lot of people who regularly use the internet but have never heard of windows, fixed lines are rare in a lot of developing countries so most users are on mobile and are generally using android devices.
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So what the fuck do you recommend they use instead of Windows?... Linux used to be a competitor to Windows, but that was a decade ago.
There there...it's perfectly okay for you to take the blue pill, no one will ever blame you for it, that's what most people would opt for.
Pills aside, I've been on the red pi....I mean - using Linux since 1998, and mostly as a user since I don't really like messing around under the hood - but just get my job done, granted - that was hard back in the 90s, but...today (unless you've been living under a ROCK) Linux beats windows any day. I run it, took 15 minutes to install - and I never even bothered to lo
Virtual Machine (Score:2)
Just run your favorite version of Windows inside a virtual machine on a Linux box.
Re:Virtual Machine (Score:5, Funny)
That's still not safe enough. I run Windows inside a virtual machine on Linux inside a virtual machine on OS X.
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New chips are generally always backwards compatible. What MS is saying is that new features / flags / instructions will not be exposed.
Shrug.
Re:Virtual Machine (Score:4, Insightful)
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On an OpenVMS box.
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Or just run your favourite version of Windows on your actual machine. Not supporting != not running on.
By 2020 (Score:5, Interesting)
We're currently at the point where Linux is pretty much at the point where it is no longer necessary to run Windows on a machine. The only real reason to run Windows outside of a VM today is, essentially, games and all the other applications that require certain hardware features. Which are few and far between by now.
Linux gaming is gaining steam (you may keep the pun), so that problem should be sorted by 2020. Most applications that are unavailable in Windows (mostly specialized applications that have no counterpart in Linux) will work in a VM.
There is hope that by 2020 saying good bye (or rather, good riddance) to Redmond is quite painless.
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I believe the proper way to say it here is: 2016 is going to be the year of Linux on the desktop!
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We're currently at the point where Linux is pretty much at the point where it is no longer necessary to run Windows on a machine.
Oh man I wish we were actually at this point.
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We're currently at the point where Linux is pretty much at the point where it is no longer necessary to run Windows on a machine. The only real reason to run Windows outside of a VM today is, essentially, games and all the other applications that require certain hardware features. Which are few and far between by now.
Well, first of all a Linux + Windows in VM setup is a pretty complicated one to make and you still need a Windows license. And as far as I know, accelerated video is just as big an issue as accelerated 3D. Anything involving DRM and "protected media" or "software activation" will often intentionally fail to work in a VM hosted on an untrusted OS. And having some applications and files on one desktop and the rest on a different one is going to be annoying. Not to mention sharing of CDs/DVDs/BluRays, USB stic
Switch (Score:2)
In Feb, I'm going to buy a Lenovo T460. Skylake i7, 32GB of RAM and a Samsung 1TB 850 Pro SSD. This is the first year when it is possible to put lots of RAM and disk space in a laptop at a reasonable price. Not cheap, but now mere mortals can do it. I'm going to try Ubuntu as the main OS, then run VMware to host Win 7. I have no problem paying for software, but I expect it to work and work without sending god knows what back to its maker. Unfortunately, I need Sql Server, SolidWorks, Excel and my heart
Linux and OSX are not ANY different on this issue (Score:5, Informative)
Skylake chips support some new power management features that allow the chip to throttle based on load far more efficiently than older chips. Microsoft is not adding special support to that to Windows 7 for example. The chip will still work on Windows 7 but not all features will work.
If you use a Debian install from 5 years ago it also won't support any of those new power management features and they are not going to backport those features. You can install a new kernel and a new version of some of the power management libraries, that will probably involve rebuilding a lot of user space and in the end you are probably going to break something else. What you would have to do is just use a distribution new enough to support all the features on your new processor.
OSX is going to do EXACTLY the same thing. Apple is not going to backport skylake power management to a 5 year old version of OSX and all the risks that could have. They are going to take the newest version, work out the details on that, validate it and support it.
Intels and AMDs new processors will continue to work on older Windows and Linux versions just like before. It is just that Microsoft has officially announced they are not going to backport new processor features to older operating system versions.
Smartphonization of PCs (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft really wants everyone off Windows 7 ASAP, apparently. They probably just want to make sure there are no more XP-style holdouts like last time. By saying you can't put anything other than Windows 10 on new hardware you get from manufacturers, that's a pretty big stake in the ground for traditional enterprise desktop customers. Traditional desktops are on an 18-month production cycle, but companies typically stick with the same OS version for as long as possible unless there's a real reason to upgrade. This is going to pretty much force enterprises to move to 10 at the next hardware cycle. So, Windows 7 will probably be done on new hardware pretty soon. I'm not a big fan of making PCs appliances, but I'm an old fart so I might as well get with the times. :-)
On the other hand, it might be interesting to see what happens to Windows when the need to support all the legacy hardware falls away. Part of OS design for an open platform is a compromise because you can't use every single cool new chipset feature, you have to provide support for IDE hard disks, you need to allow for 10 year old architectures, etc. Phone manufacturers like Apple write the OS directly for the processor and hardware in the devices which might allow them to take advantage of a very specific feature and assume it will always be available on any system the OS runs on.
I wonder how Microsoft is going to handle VMs.
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I spent yesterday yelling at my computer. "It's a desktop. Not a tablet, so quit acting like a goddamned tablet." Office 2013 and server 2012 are the things most likely to make me give up completely. I will have no use for 10.
Big fuss over nothing (Score:2)
It says ensure that there are published BIOS update tools, not that it will be forced via Windows Update.
But even if BIOSes can be upgraded by Windows Update, they can't force vendors to supply the BIOS. More than likely anyone that does provide a BIOS, will ensure that they do so for hardware that can update safely (e.g. has dual BIOS capability). After all, it won't be MS on the hook, but the vendors.
Given that CPUs have bugs - see Intel Skylake freezing issue - and fixes are applied via BIOS, ensuring th
The submitter adds what? (Score:4, Insightful)
"Putting BIOS/UEFI updates in to the Windows 10 auto- / forced-update system may open Microsoft to paying $600-$1,000+ to replace broken laptops. If Windows tries to update BIOS/UEFI at a bad/risky time (like during power instability in a big storm), it could lead to an update loop or worse."
Laptop... power instability in a storm....
I'd like to add back to the submitter: Laptops are the least likely thing to suffer from power instability in a storm, unless your battery is completely dead and can't ride through a basic power outage, in which case I doubt your laptop is worth $600-1000 anymore.
Re: (Score:2)
I was talking about desktop broads being hit with power instability in a storm and that if a failed flash nukes a laptop (for non power issues or it hits a need ac power loop) that may lead to a high cost replacement. Or lets say you want to reboot due to software crashes / leaking software and it trys to flash at that time it may F* it up.
Re: (Score:3)
I would like to genuinely ask when the last time a firmware / BIOS update has actually killed a device? I mean Microsoft should know the exact risk numbers. This is nothing new for them and their entire Surface line already updates the BIOS / Firmware automatically via Windows Update.
By extension I think all of my PCs for the past 10 years (certainly all my current motherboards, and I'm sure all previous ones) have had BIOS setups that were resistant to partial flashes. Heck my Pentium 4 motherboard, which
Microsoft has already lost... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm an 50 something computer user/programmer/admin/whatever that has been using and coding computers since I was 12 years old, the days when I had to make my own video games because I was an early adopter and nothing was available to us. Didn't stop me from getting what I want. And guess what? That's the way of the world, this is how customers work - they want something? You have it? You can sell it! But trying to shove stuff down their throats doesn't really work well in the long run. History repeats itself.
I've been using Windows alongside Linux since 1998 (before that, it was all about Commodore 64, Amiga / Atari etc. for me). I basically went over to Linux back then in order to rid myself of proprietary stuff and take back the control of my computer - make it do what I WANT to do. Of course, in those days that was simply too much for the Joneses and they would prefer the mainstream instead of messing around under the hood just to get basic stuff up and running - and guess what - we...the Linux users NEVER blamed them for that. In fact, I understand this perfectly, heck...that was partially the Mac's big success - you could just plug it in and no messing around with stupid drivers and whatnot. Normal people just want to use their computers.
But something happened - Google started to support Android bigtime, and Android is essentially Linux under the hood - and then Hardware support EXPLODED. before we knew it - we saw companies like Ubuntu and many others fight like mad against Windows (or rather, run their own course as a decent competitor regardless of losses and support), because they knew - eventually - they'll catch up. And we did - together!
I use Mint Linux today - when I discovered this combo (Ubuntu + Cinnamon) I could basically say goodbye to my Windows partition for good. It was just an annoying liability of worms, constant numerous battles with worms, updates, turning of disk trashing...oh sorry...caching / optimizing or whatever they call necessary to optimize that slow running disk trashing system that took forever to boot each time I wanted to run something that demanded Windows only. It was getting further and further away from me, I had hardly touched Windows for ages.
AND HERE...is where things get fun...
I decided that I needed a new computer, so I went and bought the most BLEEDING edge hardware I could get my hands on, in my big ego...(basically only running Linux) I had totally forgotten that there was an operating system called windows (and curiously so had the people at the computer store, they themselves ran Linux mainly at home
When I assembled the entire computer at home - latest bleeding specs - latest Mint Linux - it all installed in less than 15 minutes WITH EVERYTHING I NEEDED (try that with windows unless you have a Ghosted Image with the EXACT specs of that computer), and it boots in between 3 and 6 seconds from start to finish! And this is just with a STOCK EVO 850 Samsung SSD HD.
Try to imagine the speed if they had the PCI SSD In stock....(gonna get that one!).
And every part of the hardware was supported - straight away - not only that, my setup surpassed EVERY RENDERING TEST done with BLENDER open source 3D software CYCLES (software rendering, not Nvidia GPU) done on tested Windows machines with exactly the same specs as mine.
Bye Windows, may you rest in peace.
Re: (Score:3)
You are wrong. To quote George Carlin, "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."
You, and most people on Slashdot, are not the market for Windows. (Although, for full disclosure, I am very happy with my Windows 10 box.) However, the average person knows how to do things on their Windows box! It doesn't matter if it is only a small change, they won't learn the new way and they are going to stick with Windows.
In addition, according to their financial stat
Microsoft updating our BIOS? (Score:3, Insightful)
As often as Microsoft screws up regular updates, why in hell would we trust them to update something that can brick our computers when it fails?
Fuck. That.
This would probably be less controversial (Score:2)
if Microsoft would simply keep the classic Windows XP shell and UI at least conveniently available as an option. It seems that the vast majority of the complaints about the newer Windows versions involve the UI being forced onto everyone.
Windows is a choice you can not make (Score:2)
People are complaining that Microsoft isn’t going to support Windows 7 and 8 on newer processors. This is mostly artificial. New drivers ARE needed, but Microsoft could write those without TOO much trouble and make it part of the update process to install them. It’s unlikely that Windows’ installer would totally be unable to run on these newer systems. That being said, Linux deprecates hardware (new software not compatible with old hardware) and fails to back-port (old software not com
Re: (Score:3)
What you’re describing is doing an upgrade, which is something that people are trying to avoid. That being said, Windows 10 is spyware, which is why people are so keen on avoiding it. However, I’ve had my fair share of Ubuntu upgrades go horribly wrong, so Linux upgrades aren’t exactly rainbows and unicorns.
the 3D XPoint connection (Score:5, Informative)
I'm of the opinion that Microsoft sees this as their main chance, with the near term arrival of "instant suspend / resume" in the laptop form factor, because otherwise, who the hell cares about the 3% annual performance increment that Intel presently eeks out year over year?
TrendForce Reports Intel's 3D XPoint to Shake High-End SSD Market in 3Q16 [trendforce.com]
It's sort of well known that Kaby / Cannon with have some interesting new shit.
Dear Satya Nadella (Score:2)
If you think I'm going to put up with an OS as terminally stupid as yours that tries to auto-update BIOS/EFI on the fly, YOU ARE ON FUCKING DRUGS!
Enjoy the huge lawsuits this evolves into.
Fucking morons...
Re: (Score:3)
Basically this sort of thing is forcing me to choose Linux as my next OS. Because Windows simply cannot and will not be a stable platform.
Here's hoping pretty much ALL hardware vendors adopt DualBIOS setups. Otherwise Microsoft is going to be killing devices left and right.
And Mint... (Score:3)
MS Can Force This Through Driver Signing (Score:3)
I thought to myself... how can Microsoft force this? All of their corporate customers have volume licenses with downgrade rights. Intel and AMD can still release drivers for Windows 7 if they wanted to. Then it occurred to me... driver signing.
Microsoft has seriously shaken up how driver signing works starting with Windows 10. The only way to sign any new driver in a way that Windows 10 will accept is to upload it to Microsoft over the web and have them cross-sign it along with your original signature. It used to be that as long as you had a certificate which came from a root CA that was cross-signed by Microsoft then you could sign it yourself and Windows would accept it as valid.
Now Windows 10 checks the time stamp on the driver and if the time stamp is earlier than July 29th, 20015 (the date Windows 10 was released) then Windows 10 will accept the old cross-signed root CA. If its after that date then only drivers that are directly signed my Microsoft are accepted as valid by the OS.
So how does this affect Windows 7? Well believe it or not, Windows 7 will accept certificates with either SHA1 or SHA2 (aka SHA256) for USER MODE signature check (aka .exe and .dll files.) For kernel mode drivers, Windows 7 will only accept SHA1 certificates! So all it takes is for Microsoft to stop providing SHA1 hashes via their driver signing website and then you instantly lock out any new kernel mode binary from being able to load on both Windows 7 and Windows 10. That doesn't prevent someone that still has an old SHA1 code signing certificate from using it to sign Windows 7 only drivers. But most of those certificates are expiring in the next year or two, if they haven't expired already. Intel/AMD/etc could probably release drivers for maybe 1 more silicon generation before their old certificates expire and they lose the ability to release Windows 7 drivers without submitting them to Microsoft for approval.
Basically Microsoft is using code signing to create planned obsolescence for Windows 7.
Re: (Score:2)
note to mobo vendors i will of course allow "attachment with a number of security screws that must be remove in THIS order" type stuff but please design the firmware chip to be field removable for WHEN an MS update bricks a board (bonus points for having a standby firmware chip on the board)
Re: Scary Times (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Sign of the times. Back in the day at least they gave us a blue screen, now we're stuck with black ...
Or like Neil Young put it ... [youtube.com]
Out of the blue and into the black
You pay for this, but they give you that
And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black.
Re: (Score:2)
Because microsoft controls when the update gets installed, and there is no way you can disable updates.
Usually a software manufacturer just puts the updated software online, and then you can at least say "I don't want the automatic updates to be installed".
Re: (Score:2)
The only systems I've ever seen that are like that are a very small handful targeted at over clockers or the like and those are really falling by the way side.
Nothing targeted at corporate or enterprise includes that at all.
Re: (Score:2)
Nothing targeted at corporate or enterprise includes that at all.
Let's hope that they start. It was already becoming a realistic concern that malware could embed itself in field-upgradable firmware, though as far as I'm aware this form of attack isn't widespread in practice yet. If Microsoft are going to take it upon themselves to start messing with the firmware as well, some proportion of systems getting bricked seems an inevitable consequence, and perhaps this will drive the big name brands with their expensive corporate support contracts to include a hard-coded factor
Re: (Score:3)
No, not necessarily. The problem isn't so much the cpu cores, those will be mostly backwards-compatible. The real problem are all the other discrete PCI devices. If Microsoft does not provide updated drivers for their older OS releases, those older releases have no chance of working on newer hardware.
For example, Intel's Skylake chipset has I219 gigabit ethernet now (uprev from I218 which itself was an uprev from I217). The chance of older ethernet drivers working with newer chips is zero. In the case
Re: (Score:3)
But I don't know why people are complaining so much. The same can be said for BSD and Linux distros. An older BSD or Linux release is not going to work on newer systems
Mainly because people don't like Windows 10. If the new Windows were so great that people wanted to upgrade, then no one would complain (think of Vista -> 7, no one complained about that one). The only reason people are complaining is because they don't want to upgrade, and are sad because they are forced to. Upgrade here, [slackware.com] sad people.