Volvo Wants You To Ditch Car Keys For Its New Smartphone App (dailydot.com) 293
An anonymous reader quotes an article on DailyDot: Lending your car to a friend could be as easy as sending a text. That's the future Volvo is imaging with its smartphone app that enables keyless entry for the driver -- and anyone with permission to enter. Announced earlier this year and now prominently on display at the New York International Auto Show, the app does away with key fobs and puts the key right on the user's phone. Using the device's Bluetooth capability, the app can do just about everything that a standard key could do -- from unlocking the doors to popping open the trunk to even starting the engine of the vehicle without turning the ignition. Beyond just convenience for the primary holder, the Volvo app also allows others to take the wheel without requiring a physical key. Users are able to grant digital keys to others, allowing them temporary or ongoing access to the car.
It is inevitable (Score:5, Insightful)
Someone will forget to charge their phone when parked in the desert.
Re:It is inevitable (Score:4, Funny)
Re:It is inevitable (Score:5, Funny)
Don't worry, you can just call Volvo to have them unlock the car so you can charge the phone.
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Hopefully I can use my phone as an NFC card or something. Come to think of it, not sure that phones can do that without power...
An interesting question
I actually saw this quote last but this seems to clinch it. Regardless of how they would work in a situation where
Re:It is inevitable (Score:4, Insightful)
A regular old analog key works JUST fine for me...
Heck at this point, I'm trying to make sure I can DISable many of the new car "innovations" before I get a new one, especially if something like OnStar or UConnect which are no longer options, but are imposed upon you.
I just want a car that works, looks nice and goes fast...I don't need the tracking, surveillance or other multiple points of failure, like a missing, out of power, or stoled cell phone required to make my automobile function.
I rarely ever let others drive my car to begin with....
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Someone will forget to charge their phone when parked in the desert.
Let's just go ahead and call it properly.. throw ahead to Burning Man
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Most current keyless systems have a back up way to get into the car, whether it's a hidden mechanical lock, a back up numerical keypad, or an NFC card reader (that is powered by the car, not by the phone). That being said, the last two methods require a working car battery, so that might cause problems too.
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Most modern cars, if parked for 2 weeks will have a dead battery. Just ask people that fly out for an extended vacation to find a dead car in the long term parking. It's very common now days to the point that airports now offer a service where an attendant will start your car and run it for 30 minutes once a week while you are gone, the kiosk for this is over by the car rentals.
Re:It is inevitable (Score:4, Interesting)
There is quite literally no excuse for this. A car battery is on the order of 40-50 amp-hours. To discharge even a half-dead car battery in 2 weeks means drawing a constant 60mA.
You still need to get in.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sigh..
It is if you need to get in to the car to pop the hood (or trunk depending on model) to charge the battery!!
Or are you just planning to walk away and buy a new car?
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Volvo would love that!
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Or are you just planning to walk away and buy a new car?
Not anymore than I presume you plan on magically transporting a new battery to the remote place where your car has broken down.
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Or are you just planning to walk away and buy a new car?
Not anymore than I presume you plan on magically transporting a new battery to the remote place where your car has broken down.
I carry a starter pak in the back of my car. A pity if I can't get into it to attach the starter pack to the battery and give it a jump.
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Is there an app for that?
Re:It is inevitable (Score:4, Informative)
It will allow you to open the door so you can get to the hood latch you have to pull so you can open the hood so you can jumpstart the car or replace the battery.
It might also allow you to get to the phone you locked in the glovebox so you can call for assistance.
Or if we want the most extreme form, to allow you to get to the insulin in the car so you can live long enough to even care that the battery is dead.
When you let marketing make engineering decisions, people die.
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A mechanical lock on your car that is normally unlocked by your phone is necessary because sometimes PHONE batteries go dead. Happens far more often than car batteries going dead, too.
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Do any of you crazy bastards actually know how cars work? *sighs*
To get into a locked car you need a plastic wedge and a hammer and then something to reach the inside to trigger the locking mechanism. You go in at the top-rear with the wedge and tap it in enough to spread it away from the door frame. You then pop the lock. You can buy a kit online - just lie and say you're a mechanic. Do NOT put that kit in your trunk, that's just silly. Get a second kit for your trunk so you can LET OTHER PEOPLE do it to t
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That would be great for older cars that have the battery under the hood. Better modern cars have them in back where it has better weight balance. Oh and that rear hatch pop... IT's a solenoid.. so you need to have someone hook up a charger to the hood terminals so you can power the car, so you can pop the trunk/ rear hatch to get to the battery.
All because car engineers are dumb as boxes of rocks today. Honestly, these engineers are stupid as hell for not giving a no power required open option to the F
Re:It is inevitable (Score:4, Insightful)
You realize that all these doom and gloom scenarios you're forecasting have literally always been the problem with cars?
The big difference is the frequency of occurrence? How many times have you lost your keys and weren't able to find them? I've NEVER permanently lost my the keys to my car. I might misplace them and I've even left them in a store or restaurant a handful of time but I've always been able to find them. I've also never lost a cellphone. On the other hand, I've broken my cellphone multiple times and my cell phone battery has gone dead on me more times than I can count. Whether it is not being near a charger, using it too much, or forgetting to charge it at night. This isn't a super big deal under normal circumstances but becomes a much bigger deal if you need a working cellphone to start your car. How do you even drive to the nearest cell phone store to buy a replacement phone?
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Not really, no. Dead batteries happen. If there is no mechanical lock, you're smashing the window if you EVER want to start the car again. With a mechanical lock, you have to have at least 2 things go wrong (3 if you're smart enough to make a copy of the door key and leave it at home or with a friend) before you must resort to smashing the window.
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Re:It is inevitable (Score:5, Insightful)
If the battery is too dead to unlock the car it's probably not going to start.
Yes, but it would be nice to be able to get into the car so you can open the hood so you can attach jumper cables...
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And to get the jumper cables stored inside the car.
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...or you'll lose your phone while on a trip (guilty!) and will have no way to get back in when you return.
Do Not Want.
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...or you'll lose your phone while on a trip (guilty!) and will have no way to get back in when you return.
How is that any different from losing your car keys?
Do Not Want.
Just buy a new phone, and then call Volvo to activate it.
I'm sure... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Nowadays there are amplifiers for using hands-free fobs inside the house from the driveway while the owner is asleep, unless the system has interferometry to prevent that. I wonder if it's technically possible to do actual interferometry on a BT signal from a 3rd party device, or whether Volvo is just throwing their users to the wolves.
They don't have to make it a hands-free system -- it could require that users press a button on the device to do anything with the car, and it can use public key cryptography to prevent man-in-the-middle attacks.
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I'm thinking selling diet pills to fat wolves may be a newly viable business...
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the car better have a pad or touch screen to set that pin as with voice it will be set to something easy to for it read from voice.
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So, like Tesla? (Score:4, Informative)
Sounds exactly like what Tesla has had for several years now.
Re:So, like Tesla? (Score:5, Funny)
Not exactly. It lacks the smug sense of superiority that Tesla owners crave.
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So more like the existing Onstart one from GM then?
Re:So, like Tesla? (Score:5, Interesting)
So more like the existing Onstart one from GM then?
Not sure if you're talking about Onstar owners smug sense of superiority (is there such a thing?) or the fact Onstar already has remote access, but I believe that all of the Onstar functionality happens over the cellular network, even the phone app uses the cellular network to send a signal to your car. So if you're out of cell phone range, you're out of luck.
The Volvo system uses bluetooth, no cellular network required.
Re:So, like Tesla? (Score:4, Funny)
Nah, most of us Onstars don't even think about the plebeian poser fucks who don't have it.
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> Onstar owners smug sense of superiority (is there such a thing?)
Nah, most of us Onstars don't even think about the plebeian poser fucks who don't have it.
That's just a surprising attitude from someone that drives a GM car -- "elitist" doesn't come to mind.
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Volvos, at least in Minnesota, used to carry a kind of progressive smugness about them. We used to call them the official car of the socialist state because it was hard to spot a 240 without a Carter/Mondale/anti-Nuke sticker on the back.
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Not exactly. It lacks the smug sense of superiority that Tesla owners crave.
Because Volvo owners have no smug sense of superiority?
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I know this was meant to be funny but, I think it's pretty much dead on. I think a huge amount of technology these days is not designed to provide appreciable benefits to the user, it's designed to give the user a smug sense of superiority over those that don't have the technology. It's become an ingrained part of our society at this point: Fuck functional, reliable and convenient, people just want shiny.
Great News (Score:3)
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This is great news, particularly since Bluetooth is so secure. And nothing could ever go wrong here.
it's a well published and examined protocol, and there's nothing keeping Volvo from putting their own security layer on top of it.
Do you think the proprietary opaque keyfob implementations are safer than bluetooth?
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Do you think the proprietary opaque keyfob implementations are safer than bluetooth?
A hardware based fob with rolling codes synced between the car and the fob? Sure I think that is more secure than a software based Bluetooth approach. Also, my fob battery has lasted over two years, my phone frequently runs out of power before the end of the day. My fob has a backup hardware key "just in case". My phone does not.
How is this more convenient? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not sure how this is more convenient for the main user... compare "get keys out of pocket, click button, put keys in ignition" to "get phone out of pocket, unlock phone, open app, press button on app"... OK, it's one less thing to carry, but then you'd probably end up carrying the keys anyway as backup in case your phone died or the app crashed.
I've been experimenting with home automation. While having lights come on automatically via various rules is nice, it's a pain to go into the app to turn them on and off manually when you need to - easier to get up, walk across the room and flick a switch. This feels similar - a solution in search of a problem
Re:How is this more convenient? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not giving the Valet my smartphone.
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"Valet"? Is that what you're calling him now?
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For some reason they don't like "serf".
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Re:How is this more convenient? (Score:5, Funny)
I will tell the valet to remember that the unlock code is y04WhDlHff6A49yarVdYjVxhwlu5X9WEOw5MZBu2Flj9srrbbB2
8ZDAr1IN4lm7fvoe4Y9n
Re:How is this more convenient? (Score:5, Funny)
That's easy to crack if you speak ancient Decepticon.
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and the valet's fee will go up as in some places like CA the work place will have to pay the valet's phone plan.
Re:How is this more convenient? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not sure how this is more convenient for the main user... compare "get keys out of pocket, click button, put keys in ignition"
Not even that. I have keyless entry/start on my car. My key fob always stays in my pocket, I just push a button on the handle to open, and another on the dash to start. The battery runs out maybe once every 2 years. I've never once wished it could be "easier" by bringing a phone into the mix.
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Yeah, I hadn't thought about keyless entry (don't have that on my car!), even less need for this.
The only case I can think of is if you want to leave your car somewhere for someone else to pick up later, or to borrow it from your drive when you're not home. You could grant access without having to leave the keys hidden somewhere. It's such an edge case, though, that I can't see it'd be a big selling point.
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I've never once wished it could be "easier" by bringing a phone into the mix.
Try a remote start on a cold winter day from the comfort of your bed or as you prepare to leave the office. Car is warm and ready to go. It's pretty nice.
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Same with Nissan, about $300 for a new fob and required programming. They have it locked out so that you have to do it at a dealer. It is on my list of things to avoid for the next car we buy.
List:
Comfy back seats that fit a 6' passenger (3 year old is rather tall for his age, and the next car will likely be in use through high school)
Real knobs with proper detents for the climate control
Properly padded driver's arm rest so my elbow doesn't get sore sitting on hard plastic
No 2G/3G/4G anything, or at least
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Re:How is this more convenient? (Score:5, Insightful)
Precisely. Just because there's an App for that, doesn't mean that it is easier, or better. Just make the key fob small and inexpensive to replace (and give me more than 2 when I buy the car!). I want less electronics in my future cars. The engine and frame vastly outlive infotainment system and other connected crap they are shoveling into these cars.
Please get rid of:
XM radio that I have to cycle through 3 selections of to get back to FM.
Climate settings that are only displayed on the LCD, and often not displayed unless I am in the right mode.
2G, 3G, or 4G anything. I want to drive. I can login when I get there.
Anything with sub-menus. I'm trying to drive, KISS.
Ability to order a pizza. Recently saw this touted as a feature, WTF?
Re:How is this more convenient? (Score:5, Insightful)
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I went the simpler route on home automation: Got a cheap RF keyfob-remote and receiver and installed it in the loft. Now I can turn the bedroom light on and off without getting out of bed. I even did some stuff with relay logic so the light switch still works too.
The thing looks like a fire hazard still, I really need to get a proper enclosure for it.
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OK, point taken on the practicality - it could be equal to existing keyless entry systems - but you'd still want to take your key fob as backup in case your phone died.
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My 2004 Prius, 2012 Leaf and 2105 BMW i3 all have keyless entry and ignition, as long as the key is in my pocket or my wife's purse the doors unlock when touched and the engine starts when the button is pressed. I don't need to touch a key other than move it when I move my wallet from pants to pants. I would expect the Bluetooth app to work the same way, no need to get the phone out and press a button.
Touchless keys (BMW calls it Comfort,not sure what Toyota or Nissan called it) is a requirement on any car I buy now that I've had it for over a decade.
Convinient, sure, but this convenience comes at a security cost since it's proven to be vulnerable to RF amplification attacks - You park your car in the parking lot and walk into walmart, not realizing that the mom behind you with the box in a shopping cart is sending your keyfob's signal back to your car where her accomplice is waiting next to the car to hop in and drive away.
My jeep already has this (Score:2)
combination lock (Score:4, Informative)
We had keys specifically so that a physical device is required. That's a security feature. Otherwise, a combination lock would let anyone with knowledge of the combination to enter -- which could easily be sent by text message.
I don't lend my car to random people, on a whim, without them having a key already. Sorry, that's not a thing.
And, again, I don't need remote access to my car, any more than I needed remote access to my VCR's eject button.
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Actually, I think not being capable of lending my car to someone without meeting them is a great and wonderful thing. I also think not being able to open my car from more than three feet away is a wonderful thing. I'm also certain that, like with most new technologies, marketing will make people want something that they never wanted before.
Right now, I don't have a problem, and I don't have a complaint. That means there's nothing to solve and nothing to address. We're not talking about a core-feature of
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True. I've always said that we aren't going to be able to stop Ethan Hunt.
However, along the way, we've shifted from "honest persons" to "honest publics". I think that's the new problem. One honest person standing in-front of me won't stab me in my pace-maker (if I were to have one). But in a stadium of 75'000 screaming fans, will one 14 year-old hack into my pace-maker from 100 yards away and turn it off?
Imagine being able to assassinate the president by turning off his pace maker. Without a trace. W
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Bluetooth and NFC have infinite distances of operation. Like with any radio transmission, it's only about power and size. Your phone might only have a short range, but the $300 device that I buy at the radio store has a three mile range.
When your wife's purse was stolen, she had to call five credit card companies, two banks, four government agencies, and at least three lock-smiths. She can also call her husband to bring her the spare car-key.
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See, that's a feature that we never had -- the actualy EJECT. I always wanted the tape to eject across the room -- propelling the tape at least 15 feet. That would have been awesome!
Especially in the DVD days, (or CD even) where it could have frisbee'd the disc across the room to the couch, and where we could have horse-shoe'd it from the couch into the tray!
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If anything, physical keys are less secure than electronic keys. Physical keys can be copied. Electronic security, if done properly is, is much more work to replicate using a machine at home depot.
Look at the fight between Apple and the FBI. The iphone arguably doesn't even have good security, and look at how hard it is for the FBI to unlock the San Bernadino shooter's phone. If the information was in a physical safe, the FBI would have gotten into the safe within hours.
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I'll use your example against you, if you don't mind.
If the information were in a physical safe, the FBI would have gotten into the safe within hours. Let's say within three hours. Then, when they want my phone, that's another three hours. Then, when they want your phone, that's another three hours. That's three hours for each and every phone. That's a few million hours for all iphones.
But it's not in a physical safe. It's in the iphone. Now, eventually, the FBI will get into the iphone, and get ever
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"Electronic security, if done properly"
It is safer to bet it will be badly implemented and unsupported after the fact. So far that is the track record for most electronic devices.
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Physical keys require the thief to be right there picking the lock. That means anyone watching can see that it's a thief. It also means that in order to steal my car, you need to find my car, specifically. It's a surface-area-of-attack thing. With this new device, a thief can sit in the coffee shop, and spend hours hacking into any car in the parking lot, completely and totally undetected. Infinite time, infinite cars, infinite opportunity, zero chance to get caught.
When I left my phone to get fixed... (Score:3)
....two weeks ago at the Apple store (iSight camera replacement).
It was like 2-3 hour turnaround, and I left my phone at the store and drove home and then drove back later when it was finished.
I think this is a pretty stupid concept unless it's totally supplementary/optional to having a fob of some sort. My existing Volvo keyless drive fob has an actual key that can be pulled out. I only ever use it to activate the valet lock (locks the glove box and trunk), but if I recall what they told me when I picked it up it can also unlock the driver's door and somehow allow you to start the car, too.
I like the keyless drive setup and can't begin to see how a smartphone app would be more convenient than either a pushbutton fob or even analog keys. The last thing I want to do in -20F is fuck around with my phone and ungloved hand to unlock the damn car.
Yikes! (Score:2)
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Sounds like a solution looking for a problem... (Score:3)
What's wrong with carrying a key fob? So if someone steals my phone they also, by extension, steal my car? Sorry...I'm not willing to put that on a device (phone) that is often stolen and frequently hacked.
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Works fine because no one wants to steal a Volvo! (Score:4, Funny)
Tesla, a company with roots in technology and computers sucks at security. Microsoft, Google, Apple and slews of others (including the overwhelming Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, etc... community) could not on the best day make Bluetooth secure. I'm buying a BMW i3 right now which is extremely smart phone friendly and already know that simply because it's made by BMW it's an open hack fest since BMW is great at making things like drive trains and leather seats, when it comes to anything electronic, they're idiots.
So, here comes the infamous Volvo... a company who specializes in making automotive dinosaurs and they're going to make technology like this?
I believe Amy (Big Bang Theory) explained Volvo best when she made the statement "She was the only girl who would pass out drunk at wild college parties and wake up with more clothes on". That's Volvo in a nut shell... they could sell cars without any locks or security and people still wouldn't steal them.
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Not a good replacement, but a good companion (Score:3)
And the benefit is... (Score:3)
What's the point of remote access to any device that is useful only if you are physically present near it?
I don't have a phone (Score:2, Insightful)
...you insensitive clod.
No, seriously. I don't have a phone. If I did have a phone, I wouldn't carry it everywhere. This is the opposite of useful.
not responsible for theft from hacking (Score:2)
and if a rent a car place does this you may be on the hook for buying them a new car if it is stolen.
Ditch the Volvo Keys? Really? (Score:2)
Ripe for abuse (Score:4, Interesting)
Good job, Volvo.
NO. (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, why does every damn thing now need to be controlled by a cellphone? It makes zero sense to network the security of your car.
As easy as sending a text? (Score:2)
"Nope."
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what about valet's so if they go on joy ride and hit someone can that person sue you and the valet's get off 100% due to there EULA.
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Just because you have remote keyless entry and engine start doesn't mean you have to use it. I had remote keyless entry and engine start for 11 years on my 2005 prius. Eventually the main key fob I was using died, and the other (that was kept in pristine condition) also died. I then had to shell out $400 on a new one. If their system was based on a smartphone app, I wouldn't have had to buy anything new. Sure I buy a new phone every couple years, but that's not an additional cost.
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If it is smart phone based you now have to be sure that your phones will run the app for the next 15-20 years. What if your Prius app was on Blackberry and they saw no need to port it to iOS, or Android, let alone support it for whatever god awful carrier locked Android mashup your phone is stuck on?
Phones are the least stable technology platform at the moment (except maybe smart watches).