Volkswagen 'Dieselgate' Software Developed At Audi In 1999, Says Report (reuters.com) 100
An anonymous reader cites a report on Reuters: German carmaker Audi created so-called defeat devices which cut emissions in 1999, years before parent company Volkswagen used them to cheat diesel emissions tests, German newspaper Handelsblatt reported on Tuesday. VW, Europe's largest automaker, admitted in September it had manipulated the engines of around 11 million diesel cars, including its VW, Audi, Porsche, Skoda and Seat brands. Engineers at Audi developed software capable of turning off certain engine functions in 1999, but it was never used by the VW luxury division, the newspaper said in an advance release of an article due to be published on Wednesday, which cited industry and company sources. Six years later, when VW engineers at the firm's Wolfsburg headquarters were unable to bring nitrogen oxide emissions below legal thresholds, they started to install the software developed by Audi, Handelsblatt said.
See, told u Audi is better than those cheap Asians (Score:2, Funny)
German Audi just makes quality software and engineering, just like Tesla and Apple - don't buy Asian Honda!
Re: (Score:3)
Sounds like you either haven't owned a well built car or you suck at maintenance.
Re:See, told u Audi is better than those cheap Asi (Score:4, Insightful)
Sounds like you either haven't owned a well built car or you suck at maintenance.
I own Audi's flagship from 1997, the A8 Quattro. The sticker says that as delivered (with warm and cold packages and 17" forged wheels) it MSRP'd at $69,000 even. With inflation, that's $102,374.50 in today's money. You would hope a car like that would be built to last, but it is not. They gave the transmission a lifetime service interval when it really needs a fluid change (which can only happen from the bottom with the vehicle perfectly flat and level) every 50k. The climate control foam gets sticky when the vehicle is parked in the sun and this can lead to destruction of the climate control servos... $130 each. The servos are connected to the flaps by little nylon-looking plastic widgets which appear to be designed to self-disintegrate. Broke one of them and had to replace it... can't buy it by itself. Like all modern vehicles, suspension link ball joints are pressed in and cannot be replaced, so the whole suspension arm has to be replaced. But TRW (who made the OE parts) is now making parts in China and they are garbage. Sadly, all the competing parts are also made in China, and also garbage. The rear sun screens always fail eventually, little plastic clips in them break. Someone has invented somewhat expensive aluminum replacements. The ABS pump module is mounted in a shit location where the connector can catch water. The fuel pumps fail reliably and are a motherbitch to replace. Evap systems are starting to leak now across the line. Many people have had plastic fuel tanks crack. The plastic sheath for the headrest motor cable expands over time (thermal cycling?) and pulls the cable out. You have to disassemble the seat back, remove the cable, remove its sheath, and shorten it, then reassemble... still stupid. The lumbar bladders reliably fail, too. These are Recaro seats so they're not exactly cheap parts-wise. The ignition coils (it's coil-on-plug) use intermediate drivers which fail somewhat reliably. There is a plastic pipe that carries coolant between the block and the block-mounted oil cooler, which WILL crack and spew. An aftermarket aluminum replacement is about the same price as another shitty plastic pipe from Audi.
This is a flagship, it is the best that Audi could do in 1997, and it still has numerous failures which could have been avoided with adequate design. Don't get it twisted. Cars are crap.
Re: (Score:2)
Changing fluids, transmission included, is a regular service for any car - or any machine for that matter. As for parts you can't replace... I hate to tell you that but that's sort of a staple of German cars. It's practically a running joke that you can buy an older M series BMW for peanuts, then have to sell an organ to get it in running order.
Look at cars like the GT86/BRZ - practically every part on that car has at least one 3rd party manufacturer replacement. In fact Toyota/Subaru literally have specifi
Re: (Score:2)
I've got an early model MR-S that's been treated like trash, thrown around, and generally treated poorly. I've only had to replace a few parts on it but all were purchased new out of parts catalogues almost 17 years after the car was made. And this is a car that is notorious for requiring a lot of maintenance for a Toyota. Definitely no headaches in the maintenance department for me.
What annoys me about Toyotas is what annoys me about all modern cars. To save a gram or two here and there, they have taken the maintainability out of it. I can buy bushings for my suspension arms but I can't replace the ball joints and they fail just as rapidly. Toyota does the same thing; even on models with stamped suspension parts they press in the ball joints so that you can't replace them.
With that said, Japanese cars are probably the best value now. They are throwing equipment at them (a base civic h
Re: (Score:2)
With all the troubles you report on the A8 I think that would make an excellent episode of RCR!
I actually had to call my mechanic anyway because a plate on my right front damper keeps coming loose and I'd rather not tighten it myself without a lift and all. He's a Subaru specialist, also does Toyota. I asked him about ball joint replacements and his response basically amounted to "for most models they wouldn't be easy to replace yourself without tools and lift, but they're not that big of a deal to replace"
Re: (Score:2)
It also seems like a natural evolution into electric and hybrid systems - though I'm sure you're with me when I say you'll be prying the shift knob to my mechanical transmission from my cold, dead hands.
Well, I sympathize, but the truth is that I've been driving luxo-barges so I've been driving slush boxes. The automatics used with the diesel in the W126 mercedes are pretty interesting, they don't shift down until you manually rev match but they have a hill sensor so you don't ever need much pedal input in normal driving, only when passing. And now I have a D2 A8 Quattro which was only offered with a 5-speed tiptronic. I don't have a tiptronic shifter because my car is a 1997 and they had to omit tiptronic
Re: (Score:2)
That's an interesting history! Personally I'm addicted to good MT so it's hard to imagine the jump from Z's to various AT vehicles. As for the Imp it's such a broad badge it's hard for me to make any judgement. I'm honestly glad they separated the Impreza badge from the WRX STI in the newest generation.
Do yourself a favour and check out a manual BRZ the next time you have a whim to look. Customizable, maintainable, reasonably priced and intensely satisfying.
Re: (Score:2)
Do yourself a favour and check out a manual BRZ the next time you have a whim to look. Customizable, maintainable, reasonably priced and intensely satisfying.
How is the BRZ for a driver who is two meters tall?
Re: (Score:2)
Not sure actually. I'd imagine once you get in it's alright, but getting in comfortably may be an issue....
Re: See, told u Audi is better than those cheap As (Score:2)
The thing is, you are not supposed to buy higher end Audis. They are to be leased for a company fleet for a few years and when a car hits about 100000 km, it is considered old and only good for selling it to East Europe.
Re: (Score:2)
They are to be leased for a company fleet for a few years and when a car hits about 100000 km, it is considered old and only good for selling it to East Europe.
That's not happening any more. Now they are recycling them.
Re: (Score:2)
Of course it does. They are bought everywhere in Germany, put on a trailer, then they go to Rostock where the truck and trailer is put on a ferry and goes to Estonia for example. The reason why they take the ferry is that it is safer than driving through Poland.
Re: (Score:2)
Well, I'm talking about the USA, which is where I live. They don't export A8s from here to Europe when they get old. They squish them and turn them into new A8s, or suspension parts or something. Or soda cans.
Re: (Score:2)
I dunno...I've heard some real horror stories about Audi's lower-end cars (A3, A4). I know a lawyer who lemon-lawed two TTs.
On the other hand, my low-end Audi runs like a champ with 200,000+ miles.
Re: (Score:2)
Not performing it in time or e.g. using the wrong type of oil can severely shorten the lifespan of an otherwise dependable vehicle.
A well-maintained Audi should last many hundreds of thousands of kilometres without major repairs.
Part of the problem is that Audi's service intervals are dirty lies. I have a 1997 A8 Quattro. It is meant to have a 75k interval on the timing belt. California state law said they have to last 95k, so Audi just bumped it up to 95k... without changing the belt. The ZF5HP42A transmission has no dip stick, and Audi claims you never have to change the fluid. This, of course, is a dirty lie. If you don't change the fluid then one of your pistons will stick eventually and cause catastrophic failure of the clutch
Re: (Score:2)
So the ZF5HP42A transmission uses engine oil, which gets gummed up and causes issues with piston rings?
Are you trying to be clever, or do you not know that automatic transmissions have pistons inside of the valve body to control hydraulic fluid flow? They're solenoid actuated, and this particular transmission (which has five speeds, three planetary gears, and three disc-type clutch packs) has somewhere between 8 and 12 of them, I forget. I could look it up, but this "conversation" doesn't really warrant it. Audi calls it 01L and I have the VAG SSP on it, so I could tell you, but why?
"...but it was never used..." (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
aw, c'mon, man! VW blew it all over.
But they didn't inhale, in the Clinton sense of the word . . .
VW executives commented at the beginning of the scandal, that it was "just a couple of rogue programmers."
Bull-fucking-shit man! In a big German auto company, they have a quality assurance organization, that reports right up to the top.
If so-called "Rogue Programmers" were doing the dirty work, someone on the executive staff knew what was going on.
VW's motto used to be "Fahrvergnügen" . . . now it is "Fehlerbehebungsmassnahmen".
Test mode (Score:2, Interesting)
Looks like they made a software to put the engine into test mode to test a low-emissions operating mode, then later said, "Hey, here's a firmware version that runs lower emissions!" Hilarity ensues when nobody asks what "Test Mode" means and someone just decides the API label must mean it's designed for emissions tests.
Practical impact is still just a bunch of whining. "He chewed gum in class!" and what happened? "He's not allowed to!"
Re: (Score:1)
Exactly. It's all a bunch of whining with no real impact at all. and honestly what they have to do to make them compliant is WORSE for the environment.
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly. It's all a bunch of whining with no real impact at all. and honestly what they have to do to make them compliant is WORSE for the environment.
Explain?
Re: (Score:1)
Because emissions requirements are generally based on percentage of (bad thing being tested for) per litre of exhaust. "Fixing" the problem reduces the fuel economy, so even though the amount of bad emissions per litre of exhaust is lower, the total amount of fuel being burned is so much higher that the amount of bad emissions per amount-of-fuel-burned per kilometer is much higher since there is so much more exhaust total.
Re:Test mode (Score:4, Interesting)
"Fixing" the problem reduces the fuel economy
I recall how in the eary 70's emmissions standard were going to destroy the automobile with engines getting terrible gas mileage, and no power.
And yet, here I am with a 4 cylinder Jeep that gets around 30 miles per gallon, and has enough ponies to keep up with traffic better than many old school V8's. And it's clean. Which by the way, is a lot better gas milage and power than a similar engine from before that time. Somehow the deadly predictions didn't come true.
then again, what are ya gonna do - there are still people pissed off about them removing lead from gasoline.
Re: (Score:1)
I recall how in the eary 70's emmissions standard were going to destroy the automobile with engines getting terrible gas mileage, and no power.
It's true that engines have come a long way since the early 70's. It's also true that back then, most people didn't imagine just how far it would be possible to go.
However, I think we really are running up against some hard limits here. You can keep ratcheting the laws upward but at some point it really is impossible to comply.
In my opinion, the best way to clean u
Re: Test mode (Score:2)
Oh so emission standards is obamas fault? i don't recall him passing any. the last fleet economy standard update was likely under Bush. Oh and it's updated by congress not the president.
Re: (Score:2)
Oh so emission standards is obamas fault? i don't recall him passing any. the last fleet economy standard update was likely under Bush. Oh and it's updated by congress not the president.
For some people, yes. You do know about the Tanks Obama movement. I thoght it was just a meme until was in a traffic jam with a guy once who spent the entire time blaming on Obama.
Re: (Score:2)
Oh so emission standards is obamas fault? i don't recall him passing any.
The Obama Administration has officially taken credit for making the CAFE standard tougher.
Re: (Score:2)
At the same time, we need to get more serious about punishing drivers of really polluting old cars.
The problem with that idea is that there are not that many of them, and they don't tend to put in that many miles. You really can't make a substantial dent in pollution that way.
25% of cars produce 90% of car pollution
Your citation doesn't support your argument, though. FTFA, "How you drive, hard acceleration, age of the vehicle\e, how the car is maintainedâ"these are things we can influence that can all have an effect on pollution.â" Age of the vehicle is only listed as one factor. Also, their sampling methodology was shit, and this is
Re: (Score:2)
And yet, here I am with a 4 cylinder Jeep that gets around 30 miles per gallon, and has enough ponies to keep up with traffic better than many old school V8's. And it's clean. Which by the way, is a lot better gas milage and power than a similar engine from before that time. Somehow the deadly predictions didn't come true.
then again, what are ya gonna do - there are still people pissed off about them removing lead from gasoline.
Your 4 cylinder Jeep that gets 30 mpg, puts out 156 bhp and 141 lb-ft. The only old school V8s with that little power and torque were the ones choked by early emissions control devices.
The problem with lead going away was that it was needed for the valves on older engines. Eventually hardened valve seats would eliminate the need but who had to pay for all of those engine rebuilds to install them.
Oh, what's the EPA fuel economy numbers for a 1985 Honda CRX HF? Almost 60 mpg highway. Twice what your Jeep
Re: (Score:1)
CRXs got closer to 50 MPG (US), at least that's about what my friend's particular car did. But what did they weigh? About 1600lbs or so? Add another half a ton of sheet metal and it might scrape the bottom of the current crash standards score chart. And damn it was tiny.
So, like all things in life, it's about finding a balance. Do I want to get great mileage...or live through a crash?
Re: (Score:2)
Your 4 cylinder Jeep that gets 30 mpg, puts out 156 bhp and 141 lb-ft. The only old school V8s with that little power and torque were the ones choked by early emissions control devices.
Way to not get the point. The point is that the concept of lower emmissions=lower gas mileage is not true. And I'm not certain that I ever claimed that my vehicle had more or less power than old V8's. Just that it keeps up with them. There was a time when if you had a four cylinder, you were paying a stiff performance price. Now you just drive them the same way. A drag race? Old V8 wins. Cruising down the interstate all day? No difference.
>
The problem with lead going away was that it was needed for the valves on older engines. Eventually hardened valve seats would eliminate the need but who had to pay for all of those engine rebuilds to install them.
There were a lot more problems created by keeping lead in the gasoli
Re: (Score:2)
I was there, and I remember it too.
In all fairness, 70's era emissions controls often did ruin power, made manufactures cap away carb adjustments thereby making cars run like shit at altitude (burning too rich) without breaking the law by removing the caps, and further added complexity and common failure points (air injectors, coast rich systems, EGRs, and a spaghetti chase of vacuum hoses which became brittle and cracked under heat), often made cars commonly stumble and stall in traffic, AND to top all of that off, did have a measurable negative effect of gas mileage--during the oil crisis of all times.
Yes, those engines were a mess. I'm pretty sure the companies were pissed off at teh guvmint telling them what they had to do, in addition doing it in the cheapest way possible.
Re: (Score:2)
Actually by regulating fuel entering the chamber alone you reduce the amount of unburnt fuel in the chamber (assuming adequate intake). Dynamically reducing the amount of fuel sprayed in the chamber based on a variety of factors such as total available intake, engine temperature, etc. inhibits available output but can dramatically decrease fuel consumption rates. By further dynamically calculating driving conditions and dynamically "curving" throttle response for more drawn out acceleration you can further
Re: (Score:2)
There is typically a tradeoff in engine design between particulate emissions and NOx emissions.
This is true. As with anything else, there are tradeoffs
Re: Test mode (Score:1, Informative)
It's fraud. You can whitewash it all you want, but here in reality land, it's called fraud and we prosecute. Wait till be has to pay back the owners.
Re: Test mode (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed. Cars were advertised and sold as:
1. Performance: X
2. Mileage: Y MPG
3. Emissions: Meets General US and California specific emissions.
Right now, we have 1 and 2, but not 3. After the fix, it will have 3, but most likely neither 1 nor 2.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1, Funny)
Free laughing gas!?!
Do you deliver it personally, or do you send a lackey?
Re: (Score:1)
Free laughing gas!?!
Do you deliver it personally, or do you send a lackey?
I don't know, and I can't stop laughing!
Re: (Score:2)
I send you, lackey, since you don't know the difference between Nitrogen Dioxide (NO2) and Nitrous Oxide (N2O) and all I need for you to do is make a delivery, not understand chemicals.
Re: (Score:3)
You'll care a great deal when you can't drive the car at all until 3 is met. You'll have the urge to kill when you see that to meet 3 you will have to give up 1 and 2.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah...like more than a handful of US consumers give a rats ass about emissions....
Most are interested in the actual performance, looks and how well it works over the years.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah...like more than a handful of US consumers give a rats ass about emissions....
Most are interested in the actual performance, looks and how well it works over the years.
Most are interested in having a legal car. States could, rightfully, refuse to allow registration renewal on these cars.
Re: (Score:2)
Thankfully, I live in a state that doesn't require any emissions tests, etc...I often forget there are states that do.
Re: (Score:2)
Agreed. Cars were advertised and sold as:
1. Performance: X 2. Mileage: Y MPG 3. Emissions: Meets General US and California specific emissions.
Right now, we have 1 and 2, but not 3. After the fix, it will have 3, but most likely neither 1 nor 2.
That's why God invented JATO.
Re: (Score:2)
But they did do all three, especially since #3 is only tested on an EPA-sanctioned dynamometer.
That said, while I feel that emissions standards should call for real on-the-road testing across the board, this wasn't (and AFAICT, still isn't) the case.
Re: (Score:2)
After the fix, it will have 3, but most likely neither 1 nor 2.
Only if you let the Volkswagen screw you. They can fix this problem on many vehicles without any loss of performance, they just need to install expensive emissions control equipment. On the others, they just need to buy it back from you so you can buy something better.
In some countries there is another option. They could get the car to pass emissions test but end up in the highest tax bracket, in areas where tax is determined by emissions. Then they could pay the extra tax for the life of the car. In some p
Re: (Score:2)
They can fix this problem on many vehicles without any loss of performance, they just need to install expensive emissions control equipment.
Where do you imagine they're going to fit that equipment? In the boot? Maybe in your lap? If you were actually paying attention to this issue, watching podcasts by industry insiders talking about it and the like, you'd know that the equipment is not just expensive but it also takes up substantial space. There is literally no room in these vehicles for this equipment. If you were familiar with modern automotive designs or with VAG autos in particular you'd know that. They pack equipment in tightly.
There is o
Re: (Score:2)
Mazda does sell diesels and has done so for decades.
Yeah, they don't sell the Mazda 3 diesel in the US because they could only make it perform as well as a Golf and that wasn't good enough for them. Watch Autoline, or don't, but that's where I get most of this stuff.
Re: (Score:1)
It's fraud.
VW fanbois grasp at any explanation to excuse the worlds largest car manufacturer for their fraud. The same mentality that enables corporate staff to rummage around until they find some "test" software that "works" with zero curiosity about why is exactly how banks and regulators hand-waved fraud in the mortgage industry as long as the right fairness in lending goals were achieved. But the former are great folks that made a "mistake" and the latter are criminal capitalist pig dogs.
It's amusing watching
It was intentional fraud (Score:5, Informative)
They knew exactly what they were doing. For a technical explanation of how the controller was reverse-engineered see the 32c3 conference lecture:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZSU1FPDiao [youtube.com]
If you're in a hurry you can skip the first 30 minutes, but a good engineer gets the background info.
Re: (Score:1)
The first 25 minutes or so are basically just a rehash of what every engineer already knows, but near the end of the introduction the Audi guy talks a bit about the differences between EU and US legal systems and the consequences, and he also gives some interesting figures on deaths caused by and the social and economic cost of VW's cheating system.
So don't skip 30 minutes, but start at the 25 minute mark.
Why I Won't Read This (Score:1)
Why am I bothering to say this? Because my problem is with the use of -gate, not the underlying issue that you are attempting to misrepresent. I will happily listen to someone else saying the exact same things as you, so long as they refrain from
Enough with the *gates (Score:3)
Unless you are talking about Gates McFadden of course...
Re: (Score:2)
Interestingly, her real name is Cheryl; Gates is her middle name. There's some story behind why she dropped the first name for her stage name, but I can't seem to find it now.
Re: (Score:2)
I had to look up her name on IMDB and after reading her bio there I believe I recall what you are talking about, but then it's quite possible I am completely wrong. Before becoming an actress she was known in the industry for her work with Jim Henson as a Muppeteer. In an effort to distance herself from her work with Jim Henson she'd use her middle name when applying for acting roles. Of course she found success as an actress and her work with the Muppets is just a side note on IMDB.
Pick (Score:2)
Horsepower
Fuel Efficiency
Emissions
Choose two.
Re: (Score:2)
I get all three: I have a gasoline-powered car. (Gasoline engines usually make more power than diesel ones BTW, just less low-end torque. You never said anything about torque, just HP.)
Honestly, they should just give up on diesel-powered cars altogether. It's really not that great a fuel for that application because of the NOx emissions, and the high cost of the engines, plus the higher cost of the fuel itself. Gasoline is a better fuel for now, until we can get moved to more hybrids, and then finally a
Re: (Score:2)
Diesel is about thirty percent cheaper than petrol
No, it's not. It's more expensive. Gasoline is about $2.80 at the gas station 2 miles from me, while diesel at the same station is about $3.00. It's like this everywhere in the country.
Additionally, a diesel engine lasts longer and needs less maintenance.
Bullshit. Gas engines are lasting 200k miles these days easily. No one is getting rid of their cars because of the engines any more, they get rid of them because they get old and ratty and the interior
VW engineers? (Score:1)
" Six years later, when VW engineers at the firm's Wolfsburg headquarters were unable to bring nitrogen oxide emissions below legal thresholds, they started to install the software developed by Audi, Handelsblatt said."
More like:
Six years later, when VW engineers at the firm's Wolfsburg headquarters were unable to bring nitrogen oxide emissions below legal thresholds, their managers told them to install the software developed by Audi,
Re: (Score:2)
That's questionable. First off, only the lower-level managers are usually former engineers; in lots of engineering companies, the top management is not composed of former engineers at all, they frequently come from other backgrounds. And secondly, if someone stops doing engineering and just does management, personally I would not call him an "engineer" any more, just as I don't consider myself a "bagger" even though I used to bag groceries in high school many years ago.
Re: (Score:2)
I seriously doubt that's the case in American companies, and I'm quite sure it's not the case in car companies.
Could we stop tacking 'gate' to everything? (Score:3)
Seriously. Not only does it sound like an idiot wants to sound hip, it also makes no sense whatsoever. Watergate was the name of the hotel. It's not like some gate was involved altogether in the scandal.
If the whole "-gate" craze taught me one thing then that whenever journalists feel the urge to tack "-gate" to something, it usually means that the scandal is little more than hype and that it can't stand up on its own so it has to be propped up by a reference to some well known actual scandal.
Re: (Score:3)
I was hoping for a scandal involving Bill Gates. Then we could have Gatesgate.
Vorsprung durch Technik (Score:1)
Audi's long-standing motto is 'Vorsprung durch Technik', which in a way is right, they used software technology to hide the hardware problems.
Disclaimer: I have an Audi diesel, but not one of the 'special' ones.
Uhm... No... (Score:2)
First of all it's a bit misleading when we are talking about software here. Technically it is, but actually it's more like a parameter set the actual software is working on. The actual software is the same for many companies and written by Bosch.
Dubious parameters have been used by other companies before. One example is BMW motorcycles.
If you want to get some information with some credibility, watch this talk:
https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-73... [media.ccc.de]
Those people have reverse-engineered the software and the paramete