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Parents Are Worried the Amazon Echo Is Conditioning Their Kids To Be Rude (qz.com) 204

Posted by msmash from the social-graces-in-digital-world dept.
Quartz has a story today in which it documents several concerns from parents that Amazon Echo (and perhaps other AI-powered devices) is conditioning the kids of this generation to be rude. "How?" You ask. For one, unlike a human parent who gets annoyed listening to the same question numerous times, Amazon Echo doesn't mind that. From the report: "I've found my kids pushing the virtual assistant further than they would push a human," says Avi Greengart, a tech analyst and father of five who lives in Teaneck, New Jersey. "[Alexa] never says 'That was rude' or 'I'm tired of you asking me the same question over and over again.'" Perhaps she should, he thinks. "One of the responsibilities of parents is to teach your kids social graces," says Greengart, "and this is a box you speak to as if it were a person who does not require social graces."
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Parents Are Worried the Amazon Echo Is Conditioning Their Kids To Be Rude More

Parents Are Worried the Amazon Echo Is Conditioning Their Kids To Be Rude

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  • Im sorry Dave, I can't do that. Unless you say please.

    • Why? Let the little bastards ask the same question 2500 times and get the same answer each time, politely on top.
      Beats asking dad and getting spanked after the 5th time easily.
      It teaches the kids to be polite even when the other person is an annoying bore.
      And Echo doesn't give a shit anyway.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by suutar ( 1860506 )

        it may give them an example of how to be polite when the other person is a bore, but is that really the same as teaching them?

    • for the hundredth goddamn fucking time. Now stop fucking asking, or use your damn manners DAVE.

  • More of a parenting problme (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09, 2016 @03:48PM (#52283817)

    Than a technology problem

  • there's your grace.

  • Solution (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Yvan256 ( 722131 ) on Thursday June 09, 2016 @03:49PM (#52283833) Homepage Journal

    Don't buy that shit, don't install it in your house and educate your children to be proper human beings.

    • Are you a parent?

    • Re:Solution (Score:4, Informative)

      by pla ( 258480 ) on Thursday June 09, 2016 @04:26PM (#52284107) Journal
      educate your children to be proper human beings.

      This, a million times this.

      Alexa teaches kids rudeness? Bullshit. Lazy parents who expect TV and computers (and now Alexa) to absolve them of the basic responsibilities that come with sticking your dick in another human (or vice-versa) lead to obnoxious self-entitled brats that turn into obnoxious self-entitled adults. Really as simple as that.

      Alexa has nothing to do with it. Quit blaming other people for your problems, folks. Amazon doesn't make you a shitty parent, you make you a shitty parent.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by sjames ( 1099 )

        Yeah, yeah, bla, bla, bla.

        They're not demanding, marching in the streets, shaking their fists in anger, or even threatening not to buy one. It was just a suggestion (and not a bad one at that).

        Do you get pissed when parents read from a storybook at bedtime rather than from memory too?

      • "responsibilities that come with sticking your dick in another human (or vice-versa)"

        Forget the robot parenting. I want to know how you stick your human in another dick.

        • "responsibilities that come with sticking your dick in another human (or vice-versa)"

          Forget the robot parenting. I want to know how you stick your human in another dick.

          Nothing is impossible with the appropriate application of force. You might need some kind of lube for this one though.

    • I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

  • Why be nice to a machine — a mere syntactic device [wikia.com]?

    Parents ought to teach kids to be polite to the sentient — yes. Unfortunately, lack of good manners [google.com] there well predates any AI.

    • Re:Wasting good manners on help... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Thursday June 09, 2016 @03:59PM (#52283911) Homepage Journal

      You think young kids make a clear distinction between a machine that understands them and responds to them in a human voice, and an actual human? Have you seen how attached they get to cartoon characters? They can't even make a clear emotional disconnection between Spongebob Squarepants and real people.

      That's simply not how child, or adult psychology for that matter, works. The human brain is wired to see human characteristics in things, and to react to them as if they have some sentience.

      • Have you seen how attached they get to cartoon characters?

        No, actually, I haven't. Plush toys — yes, but not the characters on the other side of the TV glass...

        clear emotional disconnection between Spongebob Squarepants and real people.

        Cartoon characters are (portrayed as) sentient too — unlike Echo (or Roomba). If the kid is polite to a plush toy, that's nice. But if he is not — that's Ok too, as long as he is nice to humans (and pets).

        • Have you seen how attached they get to cartoon characters?

          Not just cartoon characters:

          https://www.buzzfeed.com/danie... [buzzfeed.com]

          http://www.thejimquisition.com... [thejimquisition.com]

          And these aren't even little kids, they're grown-ass men.

          • Bad examples. One being a movie that a lot of people liked and fondly remember from their childhood being abused for pandering to a loudmouth group, the other being the sequel to one of the most overhyped and most disappointing games (not to mention overpriced) of the recent past.

            One could imagine that there might be people pissed at them for other reason than the stated ones.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by gweihir ( 88907 )

        I disagree. I think most kids do exactly understand the difference between a fictional character, a pet, a computer program and another human being. Sure, kids may love and respect a pet very much, but they will still know it is a pet and different in its capabilities from a human and needs to be treated differently. They may get attached to a cartoon character or other fantasy entity, but they will still know what it is and treat it as what it is. As to a computer program, unless tricked very cleverly, the

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Calydor ( 739835 )

        Is a child's attachment to a cartoon character all that different from a teenager's attachment to some music celebrity, attachments that often last (or at least used to last) well into adult years?

        The celebrity is a real person - but has exactly as much effect on the teen's real life as the cartoon character would.

      • > Have you seen how attached they get to cartoon characters? They can't even make a clear emotional disconnection between Spongebob Squarepants and real people.

        Yes, but many of us move on to develop an emotional age of greater than two years old.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by khallow ( 566160 )

        You think young kids make a clear distinction between a machine that understands them and responds to them in a human voice, and an actual human?

        Yes, and I don't think this is relevant.

    • It seems to be slowly improving though, at least in some respects. It used to be that setting cats on fire was commonly seen as just a bit of good fun, I'd say not setting them on fire is far more polite. On the other hand our treatment of farm animals seems to have declined rather atrociously in the last century or so.

      Or did you mean sapient (thinking) rather than sentient (feeling)?

      • Or did you mean sapient (thinking) rather than sentient (feeling)?

        My dictionary [princeton.edu] defines "sentient" as consciously perceiving — cows may feel pain, but they aren't conscientious and so it is Ok to eat them.

        • Conscious, not conscientious. And cows are pretty universally considered both conscious and sentient. Most insects and arthropods probably not, though lobsters will engage in the excessive grooming of lost limbs that's generally considered a sign of conscious awareness of loss (insects will simply adjust their gate and attempt to carry on)

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by mi ( 197448 )

            Conscious, not conscientious.

            Indeed. And the "conscious" is defined as [princeton.edu] (emphasis mine):

            knowing and perceiving; having awareness of surroundings and sensations and thoughts

            And cows are pretty universally considered both conscious and sentient

            A cross-dressing man may be "regarded" as a woman by well-meaning strangers, without being one. Show me a thinking cow...

            insects will simply adjust their gate and attempt to carry on

            Gait, not gate.

            • >Show me a thinking cow

              Show me one that doesn't think. Hell, prove to me that *you* think.

              Until such time as we develop the ability to observe thoughts directly, the best we have to go on is whether an individual demonstrates behavior consistent with thinking. And I'll take the opinions of scientists who have spent their lives to studying consciousness over a random internet poster any day.

              Also, are you seriously trying to base an argument based on the precise terminology used in a particular dictionar

          • "In fantasy fiction and science fiction, sapience often describes an essential property that bestows "personhood" onto a non-human. It indicates that a computer, alien, mythical creature or other similar will be treated as a being with capabilities and desires as any human character, often eligible to full civil rights. The words "sentience", "self-awareness", and "consciousness" are used in similar ways in science fiction.[26]"

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

            This is what most people mean when we ta

            • Which is silly, and the reason I make a point of correcting it when I see it. Because what is the point of using a word that means something completely different that what you intend to say? Most "higher" animal life is both conscious and sentient, to the best of our current ability to determine it. There's even some evidence that some plant life may be as well. Self awareness is getting vaguer, and probably rarer, but a lot of the more intelligent species have at least enough to recognize themselves in

              • " how little really separates us from other animals."

                Biologically, sure, we are very close to animals, however intellectually we stand on the other side of an enormous chasm. We ARE special, today, right now. The other animals have a chance of becoming something similar to us, but its an event horizon none of them have crossed yet. We are still animals, but we are exceptional animals to an insane degree. The fact that im transmitting thought to you through this message is a plainly obvious testament to i

          • (insects will simply adjust their gate and attempt to carry on)

            I don't know how that will help, unless their new gait helps them swoop under it or something :p

            • Well, you know, fewer limbs makes it more difficult to crouch as low, so they have to adjust their gate higher to give themselves some more clearance :-D.

  • I fail to see the logic here. If you get Amazon echo you never speak to your kids again or what?

  • Say it with me: "magic circle effect" (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Shadow of Eternity ( 795165 ) on Thursday June 09, 2016 @03:51PM (#52283851)

    This box will no more teach kids to be rude to real humans than videogames taught them to be violent to real humans.

  • Perfect product idea (Score:5, Funny)

    by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Thursday June 09, 2016 @03:51PM (#52283853)

    I call it the "Are we there yet machine". You place it next to your kid and it answers the same dumb question over and over again until the kid gets bored. It will save the parents everywhere.

  • Alexa is not the parent, you are (Score:5, Insightful)

    by CanadianRealist ( 1258974 ) on Thursday June 09, 2016 @03:52PM (#52283867)

    "One of the responsibilities of parents is to teach your kids social graces,"

    ... so I'm expecting Amazon to do that for me.

    • If you think that "teach X" doesn't go beyond "explain X using words", you're doing it wrong. If you preach education, while not looking at a kid's report card, you're not going to get a good student.

      Part of teaching is creating an environment where the proper habits are cultivated.

  • No, you teach you child it is a device (Score:3)

    by Harlequin80 ( 1671040 ) on Thursday June 09, 2016 @03:53PM (#52283871)

    and that you treat humans differently to a device. I have two small kids, I do not expect them to treat inanimate objects the same way as humans no matter how "intelligent" the inanimate object may appear.

    I think it would be a far worse idea to educate your child that a system, which should otherwise produce the same results on the same input, will randomly throw in unexpected results for no reason. We need to educate people to think that computers and other advanced systems only do what someone asked it to do, if the output isn't what you expected it doesn't mean the device is doing it to you, it means somewhere along the line the input or calculation method was wrong. The last thing we want is to teach kids these things are as irrational as people.

  • And yet (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Vermonter ( 2683811 ) on Thursday June 09, 2016 @03:53PM (#52283877)
    I never see anyone, even the oldest of people, put "please" in a Google search... maybe people understand the difference between talking to a computer and talking to a human more than you give them credit for.

    • People don't also say "please" when completing paper forms. There's a difference between interacting with a voice activated app and typing something in a web form.

    • I never see anyone, even the oldest of people, put "please" in a Google search... maybe people understand the difference between talking to a computer and talking to a human more than you give them credit for.

      That's because Google interprets queries and responds with lists, and Echo is designed to interpret and respond in natural speech. If I type "Thank you" after a Google search, I get a new search. If I tell Alexa "Thank you" after she tells me a dumb joke, she says "you're welcome."

      This is still in the category of "Stupid things parents complain about" and yet, as an Echo owner, I can tell you that the interaction is still surprisingly human-like.

  • I don't see one comment yet that is favorable to this article but it is a topic worth discussing. As bots become more a part of our lives and virtual assistants more common, our interactions will become more complex and it isn't healthy for a human being to treat something it is interacting with on that level poorly. Think of an exaggerated example, that of the humans in many futuristic movies we often see tormenting advanced robots. Of course, the robot may not be feeling anything the way a living crea

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by kwerle ( 39371 )

      So you're thinking that people should treat machines better than the animals they eat?

      Even if you, in particular, are vegetarian/vegan, the question stands.

      • I actually live on a (small) farm and hunt quite a bit. I would never treat any animal I am killing with disrespect. That act is probably one of the most solemn and respectful things I do in a given month. Of course larger commercial operations are often horrible for animals but then I'd probably never want me kid visiting one of those either.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by kwerle ( 39371 )

          OK. Why do you treat those animals respectfully?

          What level of respect do you accord the spoon you eat with?

  • It's just annoying.
    Butthurt much, millennial parents? Not like you didn't do the same thing when you were young.

  • We golden rule it. As you become more rude to Alexa, it goes from "say please" to talking-while-eating, talking loudly, complaining and eventually saying "that's a %-#()@%+!;"+7 question!" And such.

    • If you do that, it's guaranteed that your kid will get rude to Alexa, simply for this laugh.

      Newsflash: Kids know VERY well whether something is a tool and toy or a real human being.

  • Unless you have an exact, indistinguishable copy of yourself as a machine, the kids know the difference between a machine and a human being. This is the same thing that people blamed computers for and before that rock&roll and comics and before that crime/romance novels and before that ... you get the idea.

    In the end, it's the parent's responsibility to teach the difference between commanding a machine and interacting with a human. You don't "interact" with Siri or Echo like you do with people, it's a r

  • Siri has some manners (Score:4, Insightful)

    by fiannaFailMan ( 702447 ) on Thursday June 09, 2016 @04:07PM (#52283969) Journal

    Siri can be a sarcastic bitch at times, but when I once got pissed off at its inability to understand then I started swearing and it responded saying "there's no need for that." I was a bit taken aback and had a slight version of that little pang you get when you've realized you've upset someone or you blew up unnecessarily. Quite interesting, I'd like to see a bit more research into people's emotional response to technology. If people can emotionally respond to a robotic dog in a similar way to how they respond to a real dog then there might be some merit in making machines more emotionally intelligent.

  • The Echofluenza Defense (Score:4, Insightful)

    by dstyle5 ( 702493 ) on Thursday June 09, 2016 @04:08PM (#52283977)
    Coming in 10 years.

    Defense lawyer: "Your honor, the Amazon Echo device did not tell little Johnny right from wrong, teach him respect for human life, henceforth he murdered those 12 people because of Amazon..."

    Judge: "I find Johnny not guilty, by reason of Echofluenza... Case dismissed! Siri, what is next on the docket?"

  • I will bet that the parent who blames a plastic tube with a speaker for their kids' lack of social graces is also a trump voter.

  • Bah (Score:2)

    by wwalker ( 159341 )

    You cannot be rude to a computer. It's not a human being. I've kicked a door once or twice before, and punched a fridge once (both in my own home), when I was angry and frustrated. I've never done that to a human or in public, and I will never do (excluding self-defense of course). Am I still a rude person? Also, that's a big part of growing up: testing boundaries and seeing what happens if I do this or that. Since computers don't push back and there are no consequences, I don't blame kids. They just need t

  • Interacting with a machine, even if you're talking to a human at the other side, does encourage trollish behavior. Look at how prevalent cyberbullying is...when you can't see who you're being rude to or calling names, it's less of a human interaction. Here's a good example -- go on any "comments" section of any news site that requires Facebook or similar logins and read some of the comments and responses. Granted, the population that wastes time spewing opinions into comments sections isn't a full cross sec

  • It is important to distinguish between human and machine interaction. I think we are quickly approaching being a society where the only way you will be able to tell if someone is addressing you is if you are using honorifics and civil platitudes; otherwise you will assume people are addressing one device or another.

    In cultures throughout history people have used familiar pronouns vs formal pronouns to distinguish between intimate conversation and public conversation.

    We will see if this ends up being th
  • As the great yogi, Berra sagely noted:

    The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

  • we don't take no shit from a machine (Score:3)

    by OrangeTide ( 124937 ) on Thursday June 09, 2016 @04:28PM (#52284121) Homepage Journal

    We shouldn't anthropomorphize our software applications. There is no need to treat them with the same respect as you treat a human being. And it's pretty vital that everyone, kids and adults alike, know the difference between machines and people.

    • We shouldn't anthropomorphize our software applications.

      Yeah. They told me that they hate that.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by PPH ( 736903 )

      Oh yeah? Well you can bite my shiny metal ass!

  • Where's the --require_please --require_thanks options?

  • Alexa Actually Has Manners... Sort Of (Score:3, Interesting)

    by lys1123 ( 461567 ) on Thursday June 09, 2016 @04:42PM (#52284229) Homepage

    Actually, just yesterday my daughter said "Alexa, Thank you" to our Amazon Echo. Alexa replied, "no problem." which made my daughter smile.

  • Parents have enough real issues to worry about (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Mike Buddha ( 10734 ) on Thursday June 09, 2016 @04:56PM (#52284389)

    I found a book in the free bin at Powell's technical book store (back when it was a separate location) called _The Second Self: Computers and the Human Spirit_, by Sherry Turkle. One of the most interesting things she wrote about was children's relationship with new technology. When given a speak and spell, one of the first things kids tried to do was "break" it; to get it to stop saying things mid-sentence. She likened it to kids pulling the legs off of a bug: something sociopathic that kids do to things that are perceived as being "things" rather than "people". If they were unsuccessful at the task using software, they would go so far as to remove the batteries, just to show mastery over the device.

    This book was written in 1984. Stop worrying about stupid shit your kids do, they know people are people and machines are machines probably better than we do. They'll grow out of this. Worry about them growing up to be convicted rapists and what you're going to tell the judge to sweet talk him out of sending your kid to big boy jail.

    https://www.amazon.com/Second-... [amazon.com]

  • "One of the responsibilities of parents is to teach your kids social graces,"

    Yes. This is the parent's responsibility. Not the computers. If you're too lazy to teach your children how to act, they will never learn how to act.

  • How about instead of complaining that children are doing mildly subjectively annoying things, they inure their children (and themselves, while they're at it) to rudeness so that it doesn't bother them. Then, repeated question asking will no longer be a problem. A bonus effect is that talking to people who know more than they do won't make them angry or defensive.

    I suggest that, rather than playing recordings of classical music for your babies, instead play recordings of Call of Duty and League of Legends vo

  • Am I the only person who everythime he used "Hey Siri" is disappointed that there is no room to say "Thank you!" in the dialogue design?
    I think that's an oversight and interaction with it would be more natural.

  • Comcast Xfinity keeps running these ads promoting their voice remote control, where you can tell your cable box what to show. It's stuff like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

    There's another version with a woman asking for rom coms and other similar movies women would like.

    Both ads promote this world where you can ask for and demand only the things you already like, and in so doing avoid anything that might be the slightest bit unknown or new to you, or something you never heard of but might like any

  • Pets are conditioning my kids to be rude.
    For example, my kids often walk up to my dog and pet it.
    My dog needs to teach them that you can't just walk up to any person and pet them over an over.
    I need a dog that bites when someone tries to pet it so that my kids can become less annoying.

  • The kids might be rude asking the same stupid question over and over, but isn't that what reporters and voters do?
    And don't many if not most posters on internet fora (such as Slashdot) post the same answers and responses over and over and over and over?

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