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Communications United States Verizon

Verizon Workers Can Now Be Fired If They Fix Copper Phone Lines (arstechnica.com) 314

Verizon has told its field technicians in Pennsylvania that they can be fired if they try to fix broken copper phone lines. Instead, employees must try to replace copper lines with a device that connects to Verizon Wireless's cell phone network, ArsTechnica reports. From the article:This directive came in a memo from Verizon to workers on September 20. "Failure to follow this directive may result in disciplinary action up to and including dismissal," the memo said. It isn't clear whether this policy has been applied to Verizon workers outside of Pennsylvania. The memo and other documents were made public by the Communications Workers of America (CWA) union, which asked the Pennsylvania Public Utility Commission to put a stop to the forced copper-to-wireless conversions. The wireless home phone service, VoiceLink, is not a proper replacement for copper phone lines because it doesn't work with security alarms, fax machines, medical devices such as pacemakers that require telephone monitoring, and other services, the union said.
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Verizon Workers Can Now Be Fired If They Fix Copper Phone Lines

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  • Where to now? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by sycodon ( 149926 ) on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @12:55PM (#53018517)

    I left AT&T because they are fucking douche bags
    I left Sprint because they were incompetent douche bags
    I left T-Mobile because They were worse than AT&T...and they are douche bags

    Now I'm with Verizon. Who do I go to next when they start pulling this type of shit on me?

    • by drnb ( 2434720 ) on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @01:00PM (#53018563)
      I'm sure your cable TV provider could provide you with a land line. Hmm ... maybe you need to become more tolerant of douche bags? ;-)
      • by swalve ( 1980968 ) on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @02:20PM (#53019137)
        A voip line from a cable company isn't a land line. A land line is a hunk of copper that doesn't go dead when the power goes out. I am 40 years old, and I have NEVER had a landline outage.
        • by networkBoy ( 774728 ) on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @02:37PM (#53019285) Journal

          I have, but I live on a dead end street and the outage involved a car and the pole that fed my street... I'll give them a pass on that.

          As to this issue:
          call in for "broken" Cu line (really just a yanked wire) and verify that the tech put on the wireless solution.
          have your house robbed and the alarm fail because it's not a land line.
          claim on your insurance and inform them why the alarm didn't work.
          Let your insurance company act as a force multiplier in the ensuing sueball against Verizon.

          • Me too, someone crashed into the box for the neighborhood. BUT, they put what was left of the box on some 2x4's and had it functional again in about 6 hours. I know everyone hates AT&T, but kudos to the line guys. It was a crappy day that day but they still got it going fast.

        • by Octorian ( 14086 )

          I have, but it was 12 hours into a hurricane-induced power outage.

          Regardless, the whole "gov't mandated safety-critical reliability" crap is the only reason, IMHO, to actually have a land line these days. If you don't get that bit, then why even bother in the first place?

          • Because, as the article states, fax transmission fails on cellular networks. My home state's means testing process for health insurance assistance requires applicants to mail or fax documents supporting my eligibility, including the applicant's birth certificate, most recent tax return, and the last 30 days of pay stubs. The instructions specifically state that a fax is more likely to be received by the deadline than mailed printed documents.

        • by drnb ( 2434720 ) on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @03:16PM (#53019621)

          A voip line from a cable company isn't a land line. A land line is a hunk of copper that doesn't go dead when the power goes out. I am 40 years old, and I have NEVER had a landline outage.

          My cable provider's modem has an optional battery so that e911 functionality is still available during power outages.

          If I did replace my current copper connection I might just plug the modem into a UPS I have layout around.

          FWIW I used to work in telecommunications and spent some time in phone company central offices. They battery room was impressive and scary.

    • by Karl Cocknozzle ( 514413 ) <kcocknozzleNO@SPAMhotmail.com> on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @01:03PM (#53018581) Homepage

      I'm considering rigging up a string and tin-cans contraption, myself.

      It sort of reminds me of the South Park where Mr. Garrison invents the world's ultimate transportation device--it goes 300 MPH safely on the ground, allowing us to simply skip out on the humiliation of being groped in airport security lines. It does require the operator to insert a "safety wand" into their ass, and the countrols are manipulated using a phallic object via the tongue, but as all the people trying it out say "Well, it's a little uncomfortable at first, but still beats dealing with the airlines..."

      Mobile phone carriers and telephone companies in general are arriving at that level of hatred--people would rather be literally dry ass-fucked uncomfortably for hours than deal with them.

      • Mobile phone carriers and telephone companies in general are arriving at that level of hatred

        I use T-Mobile family plan, and I am happy with their service. My phone "just works" for a simple flat monthly fee.

        people would rather be literally dry ass-fucked uncomfortably for hours than deal with them.

        No, the dry ass-fucking should be reserved for people that use "literally" as an intensifier. Some ground glass should be added for those that use it to mean "figuratively".

    • Re:Where to now? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Tablizer ( 95088 ) on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @01:09PM (#53018629) Journal

      You have 3 choices? Wow!

      For about 3 months we had three choices, but then Douche Inc merged with Bag Inc.

    • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @01:09PM (#53018633)

      Try moving to a country with a free market.

    • You had a t-mobile wired connection? Impressive.
    • Well, you know what they say: You wake up one morning and run into a douchebag, he's just a douchebag. You keep running into douchebags all day long, maybe you're the douchebag.
    • by PRMan ( 959735 )
      What problems did you have with T-Mobile? I've had none. Everything is as good as it could possibly be.
    • If you are talking cell service, you might consider checking out Google Fi [google.com].

      While I don't exactly like that I have to buy a specific phone, I have been pleased with the coverage area + cost. I used to have an area on my drive I called the "Verizon dead spot". After switching over, I haven't had issues with consistent dropping calls.

      After you get past the phone expense, the price/month isn't bad: $20+data+taxes.
    • Wait, wait, wait. You were trying to run from double bag companies and you went TO Verizon?

      The only acceptable reason to be with verizon is the size of their network. In every single other way, they're inferior to all the other options.

  • by Karl Cocknozzle ( 514413 ) <kcocknozzleNO@SPAMhotmail.com> on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @12:56PM (#53018521) Homepage

    Although this seems to formalize a policy, the reality is that the various telephone companies have been cutting budgets for maintenance of copper phone lines, switching stations, and networks for many years. Ask anybody who has a business need for POTS lines about how hard it is to get any problems with them corrected--it's basically impossible. If you fight with them long enough and ward off enough attempts to be switched to a VoiP service to replace the broken lines, they'll trigger a "truck roll" and then tell you "it's all good" when it's clearly not "all good."

    For example, every one of our remote sites we have a POTS line for the times when (not if, when) the main internet access is offline, taking the VPN to access that facility from HQ offline as well. I have a POTS line at each that I can dial-up to and remotely administer things. Guess how much fun it is to discover a noisy line with a modem? (Hint: Not fun.) Guess how even much more fun it is to discover you have a noisy line at a site in the middle of the only time of year you ever need to use that POTS line, during the Internet outage at that site? (Hint: Super-not-fun.)

    • I can't remember the specifics but I believe there are laws forcing them to maintain the copper line
      • by Kjella ( 173770 )

        I can't remember the specifics but I believe there are laws forcing them to maintain the copper line

        Without an SLA with teeth that's pretty much useless. I've been "supported" by an IT department that also had external, paying customers and if you're always last in line and they can't lose you as a customer and they only get a token internal billing no matter what it's going to stink. Just because you're paying for a service on behalf of the tax payers doesn't mean you can skimp on the professional contract and service management, like what exactly are the measurable deliveries and have they been delivere

      • In many states these are called 'tariffs'.

    • Have you tried a letter from a lawyer?
  • Of course (Score:5, Informative)

    by sl3xd ( 111641 ) on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @12:57PM (#53018527) Journal

    Apparently it's not enough to getfederal subsidies for copper telecom.

    No, they want to destroy the infrastructure they're getting federal subsidies to maintain.

    • The subsidies are per-customer. There are buildings full of old-fashioned switches that cost far more to operate than the sum of the related subsidies. The phone companies can't decommission these facilities until they drive away or convert the last related customer. The unions "of course" want to keep the facilities running for as long as possible.
  • Not entirely true (Score:5, Informative)

    by BringsApples ( 3418089 ) on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @12:59PM (#53018549)
    From tfa:

    Technicians can fix the copper line “if the customer does not qualify” for wireless service. In those cases, the tech must document the reason the customer didn’t qualify for VoiceLink.

    “It is a requirement that migration to VoiceLink be your first option when the customer qualifies and the trouble is in Verizon's network,” the memo says.

    So it looks like if a tech is called to a site where all they have is voice over copper, and they're having issues with said VOC, then the techs are to simply test to see if the wireless service will work there, and if so, switch them to it. If not, then fix the copper line.

    I'm not defending Verizon, but the headline here is misleading.

    • by myth24601 ( 893486 ) on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @01:06PM (#53018603)

      I'm not defending Verizon, but the headline here is misleading.

      You must be new here.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Which means that they can't get DSL or any of the copper-line services in the future....

      • And they will be subject to node congestion, interference, power loss and a host of other problems that do not affect a POTS line.

        • by Jhon ( 241832 )

          "And they will be subject to node congestion, interference, power loss and a host of other problems that do not affect a POTS line."

          How many people REALLY have antique phones that require no external power any more? Most cellular gizmos I've seen come with a battery backup -- and unless you want to spend extra on a decent cordless phone (and most people dont), they don't come with one. So the "power loss" issue is at best a very edge case.

        • by Calydor ( 739835 )

          The constant yelling and screaming over limited wireless bandwidth is the biggest concern with this policy, IMHO. It is one thing to say "Get with the times" but another entirely to say "We are going to artificially limit you from options you used to have".

    • Re:Not entirely true (Score:5, Interesting)

      by sjames ( 1099 ) on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @01:25PM (#53018749) Homepage Journal

      And if they fix the copper rather than switching to wireless wherever possible, they are subject to "disciplinary action". So yes, they can be fired for repairing the copper.

      Looks like you didn't give Verizon their money's worth.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      This is troublesome. In Philadelphia, we have a major problem in many neighborhoods with metal theft. People rip open copper cables they can reach from the ground and steal them. I've had to have long calls with Verizon technicians in the past to get them to repair these when it happens. It's often been an issue they won't run the cable anywhere it wasn't run previously, so I can't get them to run it such that it is less likely to get stolen.

      Now I see them surprising site managers with setting this stuf

    • by HiThere ( 15173 )

      I'm not sure it *is* misleading, even given your elaboration. How many customers with know that VOIP means the line stops working if the power goes out? If they don't know, then they can't properly justify it.

      What happens if the tech doesn't get the suggested percentage of upgrades?

      I'm not sure the headline *is* misleading. I agree it might be, but there have been so many shady business practices recently that I am reluctant to give them the benefit of the doubt.

    • So, perhaps a version of the Noisy Neighbor Disruptor Circuit that runs during the wireless test and makes sure it fails.
  • by Bugler412 ( 2610815 ) on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @01:07PM (#53018617)
    Basically, not only is Verizon abandoning the copper cable plant that they built and were expected to maintain because they accepted government money to build it and maintain it in the first place, but they are also involuntarily switching customers from a Public Utility Commission regulated utility to an unregulated one that lacks features of the land line service. I'm absolutely sure that the obvious illegality of this has been appropriately muted by well applied lobbying and campaign dollars to the appropriate local and state politicians right?
  • by fallen1 ( 230220 ) on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @01:07PM (#53018619) Homepage

    Greed: Don't fix the copper wire infrastructure we get paid to maintain.

    Control: If you're moved off of copper wire POTS, then in an emergency or power outage you cannot effectively call for help. Wireless systems get overrun with numbers of calls if the emergency is large enough (hurricane, tornado, flood, etc) and your call will not get through. Or you won't have power (wireless), whereas copper is designed to (almost) always have power and JUST WORK.

    Power: See above. Put on your tin foil hat, but this is one step in a wave to disrupt and control communication when a "state of emergency" or "martial law" is declared. Just wait.

    • In all likelyhood if things are so bad your wireless won't get through, the emergency service will be overwhelmed so your call is pointless. They are doing you a favor.
      • In all likelyhood if things are so bad your wireless won't get through, the emergency service will be overwhelmed so your call is pointless.

        Yes, but the call to your family outside the disaster area may not be, and it is not pointless to be able to call and let them know you are ok. or pointless to be able to call around town to locate family members who aren't at home to check on their safety.

        Now, it is possible that the wireline CO is overloaded and your call won't go through. But with everyone switching to wireless because a wired phone is "useless", it is more likely that my wired call with get through and theirs won't. So thank you to the

        • And your local NOC the POTS go over could be out too. I will take my chances without one. My sister lived right down the street from the WTC and right after the planes hit them on 911 gave her a call. The phones were jammed and we couldnt get through yet we all somehow survived....
      • Won't stingray devices affect the service too if they happen to roll through your area?

    • by ADRA ( 37398 )

      Maintainance.. yeah, copper is a pain in the ass. Better software reduces the costs, but doesn't eliminate them. That said, I'm not sure if the wire 'drop wire' from the access point to the household would constitute part of the protected network. There are many circumstances that would prevent service tech's from maintaining infrastructure on private property.

      "one step in a wave to disrupt and control communication"
      All telco services are centrally managed anyways, so there's 0 increase to centralized censo

      • by ADRA ( 37398 )

        Correction: The devices have about 36 hours of battery power with reusable batteries that the household can replace (hypothetically), so E911 could 'probably' work, but they certainly have less reliability guarantee than traditional full-copper lines.

  • POTS is important (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward

    If it's not powered by the central office, then it's not telephone service, and the frauds at Verizon should be completely liable for all problems incurred by their false advertising.

  • Oh no! (Score:3, Informative)

    by sunking2 ( 521698 ) on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @01:20PM (#53018713)
    We must all freak out even though the article itself says there is an exception form to fill out if the copper line is required. For 99% of people who are out of a FIOS area this is a good thing as it gets their foot in the door for providing some form of wireless internet that will far exceed what they can offer via DSL. The
    The vast majority of customers could care less about copper or wireless or whether they are getting money to maintain copper. Presumably the wireless system has a battery ups like cable to maintain service during short outages. Does everyone here have parents that work in a copper mine or something?
    • by wbr1 ( 2538558 )
      No we don't have family in copper mines. But we can spot telco shills from far away.
    • Re:Oh no! (Score:5, Informative)

      by anegg ( 1390659 ) on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @01:57PM (#53018933)

      One problem I can foresee is that although there is a process in place *now* for keeping the copper in place (it it can be justified), once the FIOS or wireless solution is in place, that premise will probably never be "qualified" to have a copper line hooked back up, so a future need for the copper line cannot be met. The other is that the Verizon "battery backup" is ridiculous - my FIOS backup battery lasts for 8 hours from the time that the power goes out (not 8 hours of call time) and it needs to be replaced every 1 to 2 years. When I had copper service, and we had a house power outage of a week or so in duration (happens roughly 1/year), I could still make phone calls. Now... tough luck. And this means that the E-911 system/service that I've been paying for years to build and maintain won't be there for me if my emergency happens when the power is out.

      Dismantling the copper telephony infrastructure should be a public utility decision, not something the phone company does by subterfuge and one-on-one interactions with home owners who don't understand the ultimate ramifications.

      • The power outage for phone argument is over used. Yes it happens, and you can easily argue that a single more robust wireless solution in some cases would be better as the electrical and phone are going over the same poles.

        The reality is in most cases copper costs more and takes longer to upgrade services. Yes they get money to maintain, both from customers and the government. But I could really care less if they can offer something better with the money I'm spending today and in the future. For most peop
  • by Cro Magnon ( 467622 ) on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @01:21PM (#53018723) Homepage Journal

    I'm an old guy, and for most of my life, POTS was iron-reliable. I picked up my phone, and it worked through rain, snow, sleet, hail, and even when the power was out.

    Lately, my mom was having trouble with her landline. It started going out everytime it rained. I think it went out once when it just got humid! AT&T did "fix" it, but they must have just done a quick patch, because it started doing it again soon. They sent someone again, and did a better job of fixing it, but who knows when it will go out again.

    The good thing is, it did encourage her to get a cellphone, which I'd been trying to nudge her to for awhile.

    • by PRMan ( 959735 )
      They probably ALREADY switched her to wireless without telling her.
    • by HiThere ( 15173 )

      Unfortunately, in a major disaster cellphones are nearly guaranteed to stop working for an indefinite period of time. Land lines have been a lot more durable.

  • When I switch from POTS service to a VOIP service, My bill when from $50 a month down to $25 a month. And the VOIP service included things like unlimited long distance, voicemail, and a few other features that weren't included in my POTS service, because they would have made the bill even more expensive. Are Verizon dropping the rates for any customer affected by changing over to a VOIP system? Because if they are continuing to charge people as if they are using a POTS system, then the customers are truly

    • by ADRA ( 37398 )

      Read the article. Its still POTS service, but it includes a wireless hop from the customer's phone drop to the poll servicing that drop wire.

    • The main advantage of POTS lines is that they will work even if the power is out.

      Your VoIP equipment has a battery in it to accomplish a similar thing, but it can wear down in an extended outage. Also... as with any digital service, it is relying on layers upon layers upon layers of technology working correctly whereas a POTS line is dead simple analog signals.

      Simplicity and reliability go hand-in-hand...

  • And yet (Score:5, Interesting)

    by sjames ( 1099 ) on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @01:27PM (#53018761) Homepage Journal

    When asked about raising the data limits on wireless, they cry about how overloaded their wireless is.

    • And voice has what to do with data again? This seems like fairly standard practice when there's a major break in copper infrastructure. Send a tech over to patch a wireless backhaul in while you fix the copper. I was on wireless PSTN for 3 weeks while our local utility had to dig up the street because they couldn't pull a new cable through the damaged conduit.

  • There was a running joke in my hometown, people like me that had a TON of fax machines to service, that one of the main trunk cables running down one of our major streets, would flake out every time it rained. It got so bad, they PERMANENTLY attached a large tank of liquid nitrogen to freeze out the water. In the summer, you could see frost on that cable for about 3 blocks. In the last 6 months they have removed it and you can see a brand spanking new digital box sitting at the base of the pole. If th
  • Wait, so this means copper POTS lines might go over cell service? Um, what about emergency service calls? (a) will they get automagically located quickly/easily/correctly like traditional land line calls and (b) how long until somebody sues because their sick relative died because the signal to the paramedics that went over copper (woops, not actually copper, and the cell service was down) didn't go through?
  • I don't think Verizon knows what the word discussion really means. No matter how hard that tech yells at that paper, at no point is it going to consider saying anything other than what is printed on it. >_>
  • > because it doesn't work with security alarms, fax machines, medical devices such as pacemakers that require
    > telephone monitoring, and other services, the union said.

    I firmly believe that Verizon should be forced to either maintain its wireline network, sell it to someone who will at a fair price, or upgrade it to common-carrier fiber available for use by all on vendor-neutral terms.

    That said... I swear I remember reading about a final extension to the v.92 standard for use primarily by FAX machines

  • Why can't fiber just be run everywhere? Rural Electrification brought electricity everywhere (big ,thick metal cables). Copper phone lines are available to all households. Why the hell can't the same be done with fiber. Do it right and it should be good for 100 years.
    • by somenickname ( 1270442 ) on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @03:40PM (#53019851)

      Because corporations are more sophisticated now. They realize they can take government subsidies for rolling out internet infrastructure and, when they don't actually deliver, there are no consequences.

    • Money, basically.

      Running cables means putting up poles, which is expensive. In urban and most suburban areas it also means digging trenches in the road, putting cable down and filling them in - which is horrifically expensive. That's why wired telecommunications is a natural monopoly. Rural electrification and universal telephone were only possible because the government run a subsidy program - they paid for the installation of cables out of tax money to cover those areas where it would otherwise not be eco

    • by Altrag ( 195300 )

      Because someone has to pay for it and nobody likes paying for things anymore. Companies don't like investing when it negatively affects the next quarterly report, even if they'd see a return in 5 years. And homeowners aren't going to pay for a line that does exactly what their current line does (if they could even afford it in the first place.)

      I mean none of that should be taken as absolutes -- obviously companies occasionally manage to think beyond 3 months and there's obviously some homeowners who get e

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by Sebastopol ( 189276 ) on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @10:05PM (#53022143) Homepage

    I live deep in the woods in central Oregon. My phone line has ~35 repair tube things on it (big pringles-sized black cans) between the main pole and the 5 miles to my house. Falling trees break it almost every year. Verizon and AT&T provide land line access, and CenturyLink provides my 0.6MBps DSL (I know, ugh).

    Who -owns- the line? And wouldn't switching to a cell access point fuck everyone's DSL? I know so little about phone lines....

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