Tesla Employee Calls For Unionization, Musk Says That's 'Morally Outrageous' (arstechnica.com) 594
"In a Medium post published today, Tesla employee Jose Moran detailed working conditions at the company's Freemont factory and called for the factory workers to unionize with United Auto Workers (UAW)," reports Ars Technica. In response, Elon Musk told Gizmodo via Twitter Direct Messages: "Our understanding is that this guy was paid by the UAW to join Tesla and agitate for a union. Frankly, I find this attack to be morally outrageous. Tesla is the last car company left in California, because costs are so high." Musk went on to blame the UAW for killing the New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc (NUMMI), which sold the Fremont factory to Musk in 2010. Ars Technica reports: Tesla currently employs more than 5,000 non-union workers at its Fremont, CA-based factory. Moran wrote that the workers are often faced with "excessive mandatory overtime" and earn between $17 and $21 hourly, compared with the national average of $25.58 hourly for most autoworkers in the U.S. The Tesla employee noted that the astronomical cost of living in the Bay Area makes $21 an hour difficult to live on. Moran also claimed that the factory's "machinery is often not ergonomically compatible with our bodies," and requires "too much twisting and turning and extra physical movement to do jobs that could be simplified if workers' input were welcomed." He added that at one point, six out of eight people on his team were out on medical leave "due to various work-related injuries."
Sounds Like He Doesn't Like His Job (Score:5, Insightful)
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Easier said than done. Single, yup, not an issue. Married, that's hard if the wife is in a career. You now have two jobs to find in a new area. Kids, yeah, good luck with matching up schools to new areas and finding two jobs. So how about you wind in your next you smug git and think there's more to life than a dweeb fly-by comment maker on a dead site.
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I can't understand your post or the end of the original post. Whatever you're doing, it's not helping.
Re:Sounds Like He Doesn't Like His Job (Score:4, Informative)
and a Tesla factory job probably comes with more benefits than other employers who don't require a collegiate-level education.
Elon shouldn't quit. (Score:4, Insightful)
>> He should quit.
No, I don't think Elon Musk should quit. He has to learn a thing or two on series production.
I'll suggest him to take a tour of the Volvo plant in Torslanda.
They can give him a lot of useful advice on how to design things to be easy to assemble, and how to rotate workers around on different tasks.
Tesla has a lot of lessons to learn that the auto industry had 30 Years ago.
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Tesla sells premium priced cars. Part of why people are willing to pay such prices are they think with a factory in California Tesla's costs are higher . The other assumption is that with workers paid more than in the rest of the country the quality must be higher. If Tesla is actually paying even the same as in other car companies in other parts of the country Tesla is cheating its customers.
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I hear they recalled Yugos because they found traces of metal in them.
Re: Sounds Like He Doesn't Like His Job (Score:4, Insightful)
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I was with you until you tried to claim that the problem had nothing to do with Unions and blamed workers. I call BS, and simply point you to Detroit, Flint, and every other place that collapsed with big Union controlling the workers. The larger Unions of today are not helping workers, they are making a fat living as bureaucrats at the EXPENSE of workers. The UAW in Detroit demanded "Job Banks" where people caught using drugs, drinking, sleeping, or simply not working, while on the job were placed. Auto
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Ok, but why does that difference exist? Why are the laws so messed up in the US, and so effective in Germany?
Great question, and I'll suggest that you petition for changes in law to restrict what Unions can and can't do. Many people have been petitioning for that for quite some time, but Unions are obviously fighting those changes for self preservation of their jobs and the worst type of worker fights to keep theirs. It is a very good political lesson to learn, which is that once power is granted it is extremely difficult to remove. The founding fathers knew this pretty well.
Wow, that's some serious delusion there. The new administration is composed of a bunch of billionaire kleptocrats; if you thought we had corruption problems before, it's going to be 100x worse after they're done. It's just that the groups that'll benefit from the corruption will be different: unions won't be benefiting any more, but instead the prosperity gospel megachurches with their millionaire preachers will be making out like bandits, setting up BS "schools" and getting federal money for them, as one example.
No delusion at all, re-read what I w
Just leave (Score:3, Insightful)
If you don't want your plant unionized, pack up and move to a non-union or "right to work" state. I bet Texas would love to have you. Other benefits, lower taxes, less regulation, good selection of high tech workers.
Re:Just leave (Score:5, Insightful)
Or better yet, just skip straight to the developing world so you can even more fully exploit people.
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Why should someone have to switch jobs to avoid the union? Why shouldnt they have the fucking *right* not to have to join the union at a workplace?! How is that not the union interfering in someones private life?!
Re:Just leave (Score:4)
The 'interference' comes in the form of the government meddling with contracts between otherwise private and freely associated entities, and weakening the tools that one party has at its disposal.
Unions (Score:4, Interesting)
Unions certainly had their time and place in history, but these days it seems to be less about standing up for the little guy and more about how much money can we bring in via Union Dues. ( My opinion of course, I work within a Union Company )
That said, $21 an hour is a rather laughable wage in a State with a high cost of living like California. Hell, a wage of $80k is laughable in a State where housing starts at $500k and goes right off the scale.
So there is this thought:
If Musk doesn't want his employees getting seduced by the Union, he should probably consider bumping the pay of his workers to near what the national average is and address any concerns they may have ( like excessive mandatory overtime per the article ). As long as he keeps his workforce happy, they'll have no reason to Unionize and Musk will have nothing to worry about.
Of course, there is the flip side.
Musk can say " screw this " and move the entire operation out of California and into another State where the cost of doing business is much lower.
Re: Unions (Score:5, Interesting)
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And how, pray tell, does one make as much profit for the owners (or, if you prefer, shareholders) without, well, selling a product people want to buy for a price they are willing to pay?
It's not like competition is illegal (unless you're a taxidriver, or government employee, of course), so if your pr
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Re: Unions (Score:4, Insightful)
Oddly enoiugh, I did that this past December. And oddly enough, there were multiple choices, from cheap junk to quite expensive (and high quality) appliances.
Which means a range of choices for everyone who wants a dishwasher, for instance. Pick what's in your budget and fits your needs.
Now, alternately, we can go with the "one model fits all" theory. It has, after all, worked so well in the past. Oh, wait, it hasn't.l...
I'm curious, where do you live that there are no choices in appliances?
Re:Unions (Score:5, Interesting)
Unions certainly had their time and place in history, but these days it seems to be less about standing up for the little guy and more about how much money can we bring in via Union Dues. ( My opinion of course, I work within a Union Company )
Sounds like your union sucks, therefore all unions suck? Maybe you should get more involved in your union.
That said, $21 an hour is a rather laughable wage in a State with a high cost of living like California.
That's rather the union's point, is it not?
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Unions certainly had their time and place in history, but these days it seems to be less about standing up for the little guy and more about how much money can we bring in via Union Dues. ( My opinion of course, I work within a Union Company )
I agree with this sentiment. One of my mom's friends is a unionized electrician that, last I heard, hadn't actually worked in near 3 years and is still having to pay union dues to be "in the club" and he signed a contract that he can't back out of. I also have a buddy, in the same city, that is a non-unionized electrician and he works 4-10's every week. Granted this isn't the story with all unions, but a good example nonetheless.
Given the choice between earning a living and slowly bleeding out, I'd pick
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California doesn't have a high cost of living, only specific localities like Fremont and the bay area in general. Tesla could pay the same wage in Sacramento and it'd be perfectly fair because it'd go at least 3x further. They chose to build their factory in Fremont apparently because those are the people they really wish to hire, so it's time to pay them for their apparent specialness.
Re:Unions (Score:5, Informative)
The factory wasn't built by Tesla.
The building was formerly a joint venture between GM and Toyota (NUMMI). GM pulled out of the site as part of its bankruptcy. Toyota invested $50M in Tesla and then Tesla bought the site from Toyota for $50M.
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I am not going to say all unions are bad. If done properly a union should be a huge benefit to workers. Unfortunately, in the US many of them are basically scams designed to enrich the union officers as much as possible.
My brother works for a union company and is a member of the union. He has observed over the years that many of the union's actions are much better for the union and the union officers than they are for the union membership. The problem in his view isn't the idea of the union, so much as the
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nehumanuscrede opined:
If Musk doesn't want his employees getting seduced by the Union, he should probably consider bumping the pay of his workers to near what the national average is and address any concerns they may have ( like excessive mandatory overtime per the article ). As long as he keeps his workforce happy, they'll have no reason to Unionize and Musk will have nothing to worry about.
Of course, there is the flip side.
Musk can say " screw this " and move the entire operation out of California and into another State where the cost of doing business is much lower.
"For every complex human problem, there is one and only one simple solution - and it is always wrong." - H. L. Menchken
First of all, Musk really can't increase Tesla workers' wages significantly. Tesla is still only marginally profitable, and, despite probably the most extensive use of industrial robots in the auto industry, it has a workforce of approximately 5,000 at the former NUMMI plant. A $10/hour raise for that many people (and this is assuming a 40-hour workweek with
Something is fishy in Denmark (Score:5, Interesting)
Moran claims he's worked there for four years.
Tesla/Musk claim Moran was paid to join Tesla to agitate for unionizing.
So he joined four years ago, and was silent for four years.
And only after four years of silence, four years of mandatory overtime, etc., etc., he starts to speak out.
At which point he's suddenly a shill for the UAW?. Dunno, whether he is or isn't a shill, that doesn't make it magically wrong, per se, to argue for a union.
(And perhaps it need not be the UAW, but if not them, then who?)
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Not fishy at all. The Toyota plants in Woodstock, Ontario and Cambridge, Ontario have had multiple cases of this. People would get hired on usually by having a sterling resume, or qualifications that put them above the average worker to get hired on. Then after several years start agitating for unionization and so on. It's why the unionization vote at the Woodstock plant has failed at least 4 times that I know of.
Re:Something is fishy in Denmark (Score:5, Insightful)
People would get hired on usually by having a sterling resume, or qualifications that put them above the average worker to get hired on. Then after several years start agitating for unionization and so on.
So they work for years and then they want to be treated better and therefore they are a UAW plant who is evil and must be destroyed? I'm going to need more than that.
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If the employees are happy and feel they are paid fairly then any attempts to unionize will fail, the workers will just not have any desire to do so. Only when they feel that working conditions are bad or they are being treated unfairly or underpaid is when a place is ripe for unionization.
I have been hearing that tesla employees complain about working conditions and expectations, that can be a catalyst for one of these plants to get a union in place.
But if management has any brains at all it's easy to squ
This is where government standards SHOULD come in (Score:5, Interesting)
There should be no need and no place for a dispute over "not ergonomically compatible" and "excessive mandatory overtime". Legislated workplace standards, (and people of integrity to investigate complaints and enforce relevant legislation), should be in place to prevent this kind of dispute from being fought in the press. As for unions, they are an evil made necessary only by the fact that so much of government is in the pockets of corporations. Just my two cents worth.
They're magically delicious! (Score:2)
UAW scam job (Score:4, Interesting)
Normally I'm not a fan of Elon Musk's approach to things, but i have to agree with him on this. Of course the UAW would be after him once he gets enough momentum for Tesla, it's what the UAW does. And frankly it's the UAW's policies that have crushed the old car manufacturers in the US; their ability to redesign production processes is severely hampered by union rules.
The reason I support Musk though on this is because if the things that this guy claims is true of Tesla's plant, then frankly they don't need to unionize to improve conditions because the plant would be illegal under California labor law. I've worked in manufacturing facilities in California nearly my entire life. So either Tesla is operating illegally, or this guy is making a lot of false claims to cause agitation. I doubt the California Labor Commission (CLC) would have not inspected a 5,000 employee plant by now, so the more likely scenario is this guy is making stuff up.
From his post:
"Most of my 5,000-plus coworkers work well over 40 hours a week, including excessive mandatory overtime. "
This is extremely illegal under California state law; then penalties for companies for this are really harsh. Musk can't even get away with it by making his employees salaried exempt, the CLC takes a very hard stance on classifying employees of a particular job differently than another company. And they do inspect.
"The hard, manual labor we put in to make Tesla successful is done at great risk to our bodies."
Tesla's plant is heavily automated so I find this unlikely. I also find it unlikely that OSHA has not inspected a 5,000 employee plant for safety and health hazardous issues given how OSHA operates, so this is a questionable statement.
"There is too much twisting and turning and extra physical movement to do jobs that could be simplified if workers’ input were welcomed. Add a shortage of manpower and a constant push to work faster to meet production goals, and injuries are bound to happen."
I could see ergonomics to be a problem, and Tesla is under a crunch to deliver vehicles and meet performance measurements. And given how fast Tesla has grown, I could see their production lines being made in a haphazard and inefficient and not ergonomic way. But again, I doubt it. Tesla took a lot of influence from Toyota (including investment) on this plant, and frankly Toyota's lines are far and above the best in the business when it comes to efficiency and worker safety. So it's possible, but again unlikely.
"Most Tesla production workers earn between $17 and $21 hourly. The average auto worker in the nation earns $25.58 an hour, and lives in a much less expensive region. The living wage in Alameda county, where we work, is more than $28 an hour for an adult and one child (I have two)."
I'm sorry buddy, but labor is a market. If you don't like your rate go find another job that pays better, it's that simple. You signed up for the job at this rate, you can always leave and find another. It' unethical to go into a job with a pay rate you knew was low when you signed up, and then threaten unionization to increase the pay rate; that's you threatening trying to break an employment contract you signed.
"A few months ago, six out of eight people in my work team were out on medical leave at the same time due to various work-related injuries."
This is extremely unlikely. Work related injuries must be reported to OSHA on an ongoing basis. If a whole team is down due to people out due to medical injuries, even if the management is a cold-hearted I would think they'd be concerned about the efficiency of this team and try to make fixes, because this would shut down an entire functional group in the plant. Not only that, if 6 out of 8 on a team were out and those were reported to OSHA, then OSHA would be sending inspectors in almost next day. So for this to be true, Tesla would have to be breaking Federal employment law by not reporting injuries to OSHA, so he's either claiming that Tes
Re:UAW scam job (Score:4, Informative)
"The hard, manual labor we put in to make Tesla successful is done at great risk to our bodies."
Tesla's plant is heavily automated so I find this unlikely. I also find it unlikely that OSHA has not inspected a 5,000 employee plant for safety and health hazardous issues given how OSHA operates, so this is a questionable statement.
Actually Tesla has failed inspections.
http://insideevs.com/tesla-mot... [insideevs.com]
Tesla Motors Fined $89,000 For 7 Safety Violations Linked To Fremont Factory Incident
“Tesla employees Jesus Navarro, Kevin Carter and Jorge Terrazas were taken to Valley Medical Center in San Jose with second- and third-degree burns. Carter and Terrazas have returned to work. Navarro, who had burns on his hands, stomach, hip, lower back and ankles, was hospitalized for 20 days and continues to recuperate at home.”
“Cal-OSHA’s investigation found that Tesla failed to ensure that the low-pressure die casting machine was maintained in a safe operating condition and allowed its employees to operate the machine while the safety interlock was broken. It also found that the employees had not been properly trained regarding the hazards of the machine, and were not wearing the required eye and face protection.”
http://www.dir.ca.gov/dosh/cit... [ca.gov]
4/25/2014 Tesla Motors, Inc. Fremont Fremont District Office
Serious – 6
General – 1
Total
Violations - 7
Citations were issued to Tesla Motors, Inc. for six Serious and one General violation. The employer did not conduct periodic inspections of use of a low pressure die casting machine, and allowed employees to continue using the machine after a safety interlock had been damaged, which resulted in injuries to three employees who were sprayed with molten metal. The employer failed to release the air pressure used to inject molten aluminum into molds before servicing, did not maintain the machine in safe operating condition and did not use a protective shield. The employer did not ensure that employees were trained in the hazards of using the machine, and did not ensure that employees used eye and face protection.
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Where to start?
"Most of my 5,000-plus coworkers work well over 40 hours a week, including excessive mandatory overtime." This is extremely illegal under California state law; then penalties for companies for this are really harsh. Musk can't even get away with it by making his employees salaried exempt, the CLC takes a very hard stance on classifying employees of a particular job differently than another company. And they do inspect.
From the State of California's Department of Industrial Relations: "Q. Can
Headline (Score:2)
Ars Technica DID fix the headline at some point. It no longer implies that Musk said Unions were morally outrageous. The fact that they originally ran with that headline is...not a good thing.
Is there any evidence aside from Moran's statement that he's been with Tesla 4 years? Because if he has, it SERIOUSLY undermines Musk's contention that he's paid by the UAW to organize. I'd like to see Musk's evidence of that assertion, if any way.
Also: IF the UAW did pay someone to go to work somewhere else just to tr
I found the article misleading (Score:4, Insightful)
Not what he said. (Score:5, Insightful)
RTFA! Musk said that it as "morally outrageous" for someone to sign on as a Tesla employee, not because they wanted the job but because they wanted to be in a position to influence a unionization vote. Musk did not say or imply that unionization was morally outrageous. But that was obvious so the false title was intentional.
Re:Not what he said. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not what he said. (Score:5, Informative)
Exactly he's complaint is not against Unions per se but against someone who purposely got hired by Tesla for the expressed purpose of instigating Unionization.
Yes. Additionally, the guy was being paid by the union for doing this.
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Yes. Additionally, the guy was being paid by the union for doing this.
Why do you believe Musk when he said this? Especially when he inserted weasel words in his statement?
FTA (updates):
In a statement this morning UAW categorically denied that Moran had ever been paid by their organization. “Mr. Moran is not and has not been paid by the UAW,” the statement claims. “We would hope that Tesla would apologize to their employee.” UAW goes on to confirm reporting done by Bloomberg yesterday that “Mr. Moran and others at Tesla, have approached the UAW.”
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Weasel words. Nothing more than weasel words.
If he's not opposed to unionization then why does it matter if the person applied to work at Telsa to encourage unionization or decided to do so on his own after becoming employed there.
Like all dictators, Elon Musk hates the idea of the average person having elected representatives working on their behalf.
Re:Not what he said. (Score:5, Interesting)
They may very well be dishonest, self-serving and manipulative, but are the complaints valid? Do the complaints about pay and working conditions stand on their own? If they do then Tesla needs to address those.
Has Tesla ever produced an analysis of their pay and benefits versus those of a unionized shop? Showing that there are advantages to working without unions sounds like a better response than assigning morality to what are essentially monetary transactions.
Re: Not what he said. (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Not what he said. (Score:4, Interesting)
, since then I have not seen them do anything other than destroy companies, and do almost nothing for their employees
Agree somewhat. But the fact that there is a union is likely keeping conditions higher than if unions all suddenly disappeared and the employers had free reign to set working conditions again.
If only people could be happy with the union doing "nothing" and the union setting dues aside instead of spending them on lobbying and way too much staff.
Re: Not what he said. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: Not what he said. (Score:3)
You need to do done more research..
Guess who the largest contributor to the Democratic party was?
Guess who never asked their members of they actually wanted to donate that money to the party?
That's right.. The union's. Arse deep in the game of corruption, what a damn Surprise.
Unison is just a business for Union bosses these days.. And just like Facebook.. The members are the product, not the client.
Teachers union's have all but destroyed teaching, and resulted in a massive overburdening of Management.
Auto w
Re:Not what he said. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yeah but anyone can join the union right? Its not like its a barrier to employment, so you can't look at someone who isn't currently in the union and say "well at least that guy can't take my job" because he can just join up.
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Re:Not what he said. (Score:5, Insightful)
Except he is clearly against both. He is not saying that attack is theoretically morally outrageous. He is saying that both Moran and the UAW union are evil and bad. He is 100% against the union. He believes that unions killed all auto manufacturing in California.
Re:Not what he said. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you got the spelling of MBA wrong and wrote union instead.
Yes, actually they did (Score:3)
> So unions decided not to re-tool and just keep on rolling the same sort of crap down decaying production lines
Yes. Modern tooling replaces some (union) jobs that (union) humans did in the 1960s with machines that do the same job, better. That scared the crap out of the unions. Understandably, they fought tooth and nail against modernization, insisting on contracts that retained outdated jobs.
Other countries used the machines to produce more, better cars, faster, thereby growing their automotive secto
Re:Yes, actually they did (Score:5, Informative)
Those other countries that produce more, better cars, faster have unions with more of a say in workplace than in the USA, so I really don't get why you push that line unless it's to say what The Party says you should say in Amerika. Nyet?
The UAW recently laid off four of their senators (Score:4, Insightful)
> It seems like some US unions (the UAW in particular) are a lot more powerful than any of our unions or even all of them combined
Perhaps so. The joke is that the UAW isn't doing as well as it once was, they had a layoff and laid off four the senators who work for them.
The most powerful unions are probably some public-sector unions, like teachers' unions, because they literally pay the people they are nominally negotiating against. It goes a bit like this:
The teachers' union donates $250,000 to a certain candidate for governor.
Two months later, they sit down with the new governor and demand that he give them $2 million of taxpayers' money.
A couple years later, the governor is up for re-election.
The teachers' union meets with the governor again and says:
We'd like to discuss two things with you. First, you remember we gave you $250,00 for your last election - we're considering giving you $250,000 again for this election. Secondly, we'd like you to give us $3 million of taxpayer money.
The negotiation is between a union who wants taxpayer money and a politician who is being paid by the union. Nobody in that negotiation represents the people who are paying for it, the taxpayers.
Also, the teachers and firefighters hold a very powerful endorsement. "Think of the children", they can easily say, "Your childrens' education and future depend on you voting for candidate Greenbacks", and many, many voterd are influenced by that endorsement. The fact is, whoever is elected will help decide how money the members of the teachers' union get, and how much the union itself gets. Their self-interest is very much affexted. One should fully expect that that effect on their pay will influence their endorsement.
Ps look at the union web sites still today (Score:3)
If you're not surw whether I'm right, look at the positions taken by UAW and other large unions still today. They are still against updating tooling, which would results in higher-paying, but fewer jobs. (Aka automation)?
They still don't seem to understand that it's not a choice between automated US factories and non-automated US factories. It's a choice between automated US factories amd automated Japanese factories.
Re:Not what he said. (Score:5, Interesting)
Exactly he's complaint is not against Unions per se but against someone who purposely got hired by Tesla for the expressed purpose of instigating Unionization.
As it stands, it still begs the question: why? If you are of the conviction that all workers should be encouraged to be in a union, is it wrong to try to convince others that they should join? IOW, does freedom of speech only hold for the right kind of opinions? Taking a job with Tesla so you can talk to your colleagues about joining a union is no different than going to any other place to argue for your particular opinions; or going to another country as a missionary. Is that morally wrong?
Re:Not what he said. (Score:5, Interesting)
Musk did not say or imply that unionization was morally outrageous. But that was obvious so the false title was intentional.
Well, let's look at his claim. Is it morally outrageous to take a job specifically for the purpose of encouraging unionization? I don't think that it is. I mean, it's a lot less outrageous to me than someone who takes a job specifically for the purpose of fucking off and phoning it in and doing a shit job. My perception is that most union members believe in their union, and thus, in the act of encouraging unionization. I don't see anything to be morally outraged about there. If I were a business owner, I would be peeved at them, but I'd be equally upset with my HR department.
Re:Not what he said. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's one thing to join a company and want to form a union. But it's another thing to join a company with the purpose of getting it's employees to join an existing union. If Musk's accusations are correct, then this man is an agent provocateur sent by UWA. He is there calling for unionization to help UWA expand it's business, not improve the working conditions at Tesla. It's a fake grass roots movement, aka astroturfing. And that is morally outrageous. I don't see that kind of shady business dealing as being any different than taking a bribe.
Re:Not what he said. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's one thing to join a company and want to form a union. But it's another thing to join a company with the purpose of getting it's employees to join an existing union.
The two are clearly different things, and yet the two are clearly related things.
If Musk's accusations are correct, then this man is an agent provocateur sent by UWA. He is there calling for unionization to help UWA expand it's business, not improve the working conditions at Tesla.
Your logic is as faulty as your use of apostrophes. The moral question to be asked (remember, it's Elon that brought this into the realm of morality, and it is the subject we are discussing in this thread — I will resist all efforts to veer off topic) is whether one is justified in seeking employment specifically for the purpose of bringing unionization. I submit that the question hinges upon the following: Does the alleged agent provocateur in question believe that unionization will in fact improve conditions for employees? If so, then seeking employment specifically for the purpose of promoting unionization has the following moral components: deceiving the owner[s] of the business (or by proxy, their agents) while attempting to aid the employees of the business. Therefore, while it remains a morally questionable act, in balance the purpose would be (in my ever-so-humble opinion) essentially moral.
Of course, if the union is a scam, and the agent is in on the scam, then it is an act both reprehensible and illegal as well, and I share Musk's apparent moral outrage. As I have posted in numerous comments in this discussion, I have significant reservations about unions and would prefer to see them replaced with government protections for all workers. However, the likelihood of anything like that happening under a Trump administration (or any Republican, but we can table that argument for the next four to eight years) is basically nil. Under these circumstances, I can hardly justify agitating for the dissolution of worker's unions. I would like to see school administrator's unions eliminated, though. Let all the employees of the school have one union. Executive compensation in American schools today has become beyond outrageous.
Question, is it deception? (Score:3)
"then seeking employment specifically for the purpose of promoting unionization has the following moral components: deceiving the owner[s] of the business (or by proxy, their agents) "
My first question is this "Did the employee in question in all other respects do the job he was hired for?" If so, then I wonder if the ulterior motive is immaterial. He did an honest day's work for the agreed upon wages and benefits, as he would be indistinguishable from an employee who had no ulterior motive but decided the
Re:Not what he said. (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, it is morally outrageous for the UAW to try to come and unionize his employees, to the point that they send a paid agitator in.
I don't have a problem with Tesla employees unionizing. The UAW coming in and extracting money from them in exchange for "helping" them isn't the same thing - not by a long shot.
I worked at Indiana University years ago and something similar happened with the clerical workers there. AFSCME was able to get enough of a foothold to get a vote and win. The benefits provided by the university were already far and above what you would get elsewhere. During the first round of "negotiations", which lasted for nearly a year, the new union workers had their wages frozen. When it was finalized, they ended up getting the annual raises they would have received, anyway. But with union dues taken out.
You see, AFSCME didn't give a damn about the workers. They cared about AFSCME. So, AFSCME was able to capture an income stream from IU while effectively doing nothing.
Don't be fooled - this is about the UAW, not Tesla workers.
Re: Not what he said. (Score:2)
All the union had to do was approach an existing employee if they wanted to expand its money laundering busin...I mean lobbying business. Why didn't they? Could they not find just one sympathetic employee?
This is very much like a steel vendor sending a planted employee to get hired at a construction company to influence the construction company to buy exclusively from said steel company (except with the special force of legal organized thuggery that unions enjoy).
Re:Not what he said. (Score:5, Interesting)
It's morally outrageous to pay somebody to take a job to try to force unionization in to your specific union.
That would make a lot more sense if unions didn't have specific purposes. This is the obvious union they "should" be joining (if they are to join a union.)
But UAW has a sleazy enough background that before reading the summary, I did think that maybe UAW paid the guy off.
Paying your employees so poorly, and taking such poor care of them, is also sleazy. So we see here sleaze being used to fight sleaze. I am having a hard time getting upset.
Re:Not what he said. (Score:4, Interesting)
While I like living in California and many of the protections it offers workers, it is already a lot like being in a union. Why add the extra layer of crooks to the mix?
Re:Not what he said. (Score:4, Insightful)
But there is a question of balance. $21/hour in the Bay Area isn't much, but with a little overtime it isn't terrible for a low to no skill job. It also isn't that different than $25/hour after union dues. Ergonomics and on the job injury are dealt with by workers comp, and the company eventually has an incentive to address material issues, especially in California.
While I like living in California and many of the protections it offers workers, it is already a lot like being in a union. Why add the extra layer of crooks to the mix?
Not only that, but absent a very very tight job market, if Tesla is really paying so poorly for the area and treating everyone so badly then why work from them? If they aren't having any trouble getting employees then either they have one hell of a PR department to cover these awful awful conditions or.. maybe those awful conditions don't exist and the UAW just wants another source of dues?
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Did Musk offer proof Jose was working for the UAW? The guy's LinkedIn profile doesn't show that: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jo... [linkedin.com]. Just wondering if Musk is assuming the guy works for UAW or if he knows it.
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Tesla is the last car company left in California, because costs are so high.
It's very clear what he's saying there. He also doesn't deny anything else, such as mandatory overtime. That's the classic way companies worldwide are now getting around minimum wages and cutting corners - by making you work more
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Re:Not what he said. (Score:5, Interesting)
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My first job out of HS in 1959 was at Shwayder Bros luggage plant on South Broadway in Denver. One of the brothers, Jesse, was manager. His door was always open and one could walk in at any time to offer suggestions with no fear of losing their job. Every Christmas he divided the company profits into bonuses based on years experience. I only worked there for a year but my dad worked for them from the middle 1930s until he retired in 1969, at 65.
Across the street was the Gates Rubber Co. Their employees
Re:Not what he said. (Score:5, Insightful)
Unionization is no longer needed in the United States.
It's not the best solution; the best solution would be the things you think we have, that we don't. To wit:
There are laws in place to protect worker safety and inflating wages/job protection are the only real things unionization does anymore.
The laws in place which protect worker safety are inadequate, because they do not make unsafe work conditions sufficiently unprofitable for large industries. And there is absolutely zero job protection for non-union workers; in a world which insists that you have a job, there should be some form of job protection.
Wages are too high in the US in two areas.... the lowest paid unionized workers (floor sweepers, fork truck drivers etc) and the highest paid (CEO's).
CEOs don't have a union. The lowest-paid unionized workers are getting paid what we all should be getting paid. The minimum wage has not kept up with inflation in over twenty years, and the inflation is meant not to simply pay a subsistence wage, but to pay a comfortable living wage upon which one could support a family. That's the minimum standard that we want to accept as Americans, because we don't want to see a race to the bottom.
Middle tier skilled labor positions such as welders have good wage parity between union and non-union jobs indicating the wage is FAIR to both the workers and the businesses.
That doesn't actually indicate that at all. You need a lot more information to determine whether a wage is fair.
CEO's wages should be capped at a percentage of average employee wages.
Well, finally you say something that makes sense. Too bad about the rest of your comment. Also, it's too bad that outside education, the administration isn't union, and so this idea is completely off topic.
This would create incentive to raise employee wages
False. They just find other ways to deliver compensation.
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We do have worker safety laws. If they're not worded strongly enough they should be improved. (Not implement more unions with all the problems they bring).
I agree that minimum wage should be raised substantially. (But not implement more unions).
All citizens should have their basic rights and needs looked after, not just unionized ones. Unions introduce a problem for each one they solve. Unions built western economies- and also almost destroyed them.
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Whilst we're on my "government changes" lobbying is another activity I'd like to see erased. Even when it's unions doing the lobbying.
My point above was, for good or bad, you can unionise certain industries and at certain factories, but if we're talking about public safety, or minimum wage increases. That's an "EVERYONE" level issue, not just a union at one plant issue.
Instead of giving union dues and hoping they grease the right palms in Washington (essentially this is the poor giving money to the rich s
Re:Not what he said. (Score:5, Insightful)
Considering the massive support for Hillary in the past elections by some corporations, I'd say that the democratic party provides a similar role.
Re:Not what he said. (Score:4, Insightful)
I do have a problem with government employee unions. In particular government union political donations, which is basically creates a reward to politicians for enriching the union and their employees at the expense of taxpayers. These unions should be restricted from political donations and lobby limited to communications.
Re:Not what he said. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re: Not what he said. (Score:5, Interesting)
The disconnect between wages and productivity, between woker wages and ceo pay, and overall inequality, all mirror and councide with the trend of decreasing union membership.
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Re:First (Score:5, Funny)
My dick
So.. nothing substantial?
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Yes, this! Younger generation forgets that this country was built on strong unions.
Government and business were _always_ pro child labour in the U.S. (don't believe me,
read the Supreme Court's ruling on child labour - right to enter into a contract my arse!)
Unions, (like U.S. juries are supposed to do) help keep business and government honest
and are a needed and necessary part of a free democratic society. The original purpose
of a union was the strike fund (which is sadly "illegal" now, though it exists i
Re:Being a member of a union (Score:5, Insightful)
I think people should freely be allowed to unionize, but people should also be allowed to NOT be part of the unions if they don't want to be: it's their economic choice, really.
However, I do believe that if a union interposes itself as the collective-bargaining agent for a number of workers, then the union logically should be legally held liable for the conduct of the workers it's representing: ie if productivity falls below normal, etc, the union should be liable to compensate the firm for lost income.
Re:Being a member of a union (Score:5, Insightful)
I think people should freely be allowed to unionize, but people should also be allowed to NOT be part of the unions if they don't want to be: it's their economic choice, really.
Collectivism only works when it's mandatory--and even then, it doesn't work.
Re:Being a member of a union (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem here, and one most non-US readers wont get so I will spell it out and repeat some of what you say, is that in the US most unionisation through majority vote means *total* workforce unionisation, whether individuals want it or not.
Even if you, as a worker, disagree with the union, in most states you are *required* to at least pay dues to the union if you want to continue to work at that employer, even if you never engage with the union in any way. Thats not something that has been foisted on the unions, thats something the unions have wanted - mandated whole workforce dues payments increase their funding.
So yes, unionisation is a right, but its a right which is forced on a lot of people who don't want it and whose only recourse is to quit and find a different job.
So I agree with you that unions should only have to represent members in good standing who pay their union dues, its the laws requiring or allowing 100% union shops against individual employees wishes that need to be gotten rid of.
Re:Right to Work for Peanuts is Anti-Free Market (Score:4, Insightful)
The government already meddles to allow this - its called the National Labor Relations Act, and the Taft-Hartly act to basically overturn previous court rulings that closed union shops were illegal. They no longer call them "closed shops", but rather "union security agreements" but they are basically the same thing - the union gets dues from *all* workers, even those who do not want to join.
If a union vote doesnt pass with 100% of the workforces approval, why should it be the exclusive supplier? Because, the union will argue, its influence is diminished if it isn't - and so the rights of individual workers are trampled on because they are forced to pay dues to an entity they want nothing to do with.
It is not right, and its a setup you will find illegal in most of the rest of the world, where individual employee rights are respected. The UK made closed shops illegal in 1990.
An employee should be legally free to engage in his or her job without outside interference from a third party, even if that third party has contracts with other people in the workplace.
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Nope. The employee agrees to those dues as part of the contract with the employer.
Not if the employee is working there prior to unionisation.
Also, why the fuck should I pay some cunt a cut of my salary to interfere negatively in my relationship with my employer? Fuck that.
Closed shops are a fucking travesty and horrifically anti-employee.
Re:Being a member of a union (Score:4, Interesting)
Thats the unions problem - if they aren't getting people to voluntarily sign up, then theres something wrong with their offering, surely...?
Unions seem to have survived here in the UK and Europe, where practices such as enforced union membership is illegal and unions only act for and on behalf of voluntary members, so that makes your argument somewhat moot really doesn't it?
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Sure, being a member of a union is a right. That's not what this story is about. The UAW wants to capture some of the wages from Tesla along with all the other money that they capture. Then they can hand it to Democrats while keeping a few million for the bosses who run the union. That's all they do.
If Tesla employees want to have a union, they should do so. They don't need the UAW to "help".
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Guarantee YOU cant do it, so you are even more unskilled.
Come on back when you actually understand how a car works and tell me it's unskilled. Assembly of the drivetrain on a ancient ICE car is not for the drool and stare crowd, an all electric setup can be far more difficult and you need to understand how to run each of the testing systems at each stage.
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I seriously don't understand how people are so anti-union. I assume none of them have ever been part of a union...
Bad assumption. I am against unions, and I actually worked with the NUMMI union (and even briefly was forced to join their union). The workers were low skilled, but felt they deserved high pay. And don't even get me started on the 'leadership' of the union. The fliers that they wrote for their elections looked like they were written by 5th graders for a class president election.