Uber Says Thousands of London Drivers Threatened By English Language Test (reuters.com) 354
Costas Pitas, writing for Reuters: Tens of thousands of London private hire drivers could lose their licenses due to new English reading and writing requirements, taxi app Uber said on Tuesday at the start of a court battle to halt the plans. San Francisco-based Uber, which allows users to book journeys at the touch of a button on their smartphone, has grown rapidly in recent years but faced bans and protests around the world as regulators play catch-up with technology disrupting traditional operators. Uber launched legal action in August after public body Transport for London (TfL) said that drivers should have to prove their ability to communicate in English, including to a standard of reading and writing which Uber says is too high. "It produces the profoundest of human effects. At one extreme it will lead to the loss of livelihood," Uber's lawyer Thomas de la Mare told the High Court in London. There are over 110,000 private hire drivers in the British capital, according to TfL but around 33,000 would fail to pass their renewal test due to the new language hurdle, de la Mare told the court, citing a calculation of data provided by TfL.
Uber need to get a clue. (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems just basic common sense to require people that need to deal with the public, including in a safety context, to actually be able to converse in the national language.
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It seems just basic common sense to require people that need to deal with the public, including in a safety context, to actually be able to converse in the national language.
It depends on how strict the requirements are. Most adults read at a 7th to 8th grade level, and around 20% of adults read at under a 5th grade level. Any reading / writing requirements which limits employment to a large percentage of the working class population are likely not in the public interest.
If they are looking for something around a 3rd-5th grade reading level I could understand that. If they are looking for an 8th grade reading level the law is ridiculous and will likely only serve to limit acces
Re:Uber need to get a clue. (Score:5, Informative)
I'm an Uber driver and I met a Chinese former Uber driver who got deactivated in the US for not knowing enough English.
The first time he got deactivated, he had to pay for and pass an online English language quiz. Of course, he passed the test (I assume one of his family members helped him). Then, he got reactivated, but that didn't last for more than a week or two, and that second time, he got permanently deactivated, because he couldn't get his rating back up and passengers were still leaving the same comments about him not knowing enough English.
My point is that Uber has a crude rating system. For instance, an average of 4.6 stars can get you deactivated in some cities. But crude as that system may be, it does seem to be working at weeding out the worst Uber drivers (including those that may not know enough English).
And if we're talking about forcing Uber drivers in the UK to pass an English test, I would love to see some of their sample questions, to see how difficult they made the test.
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Most "English speaking" people... (Score:3, Interesting)
...still need subtitles and a dictionary to fully understand a Guy Ritchie movie.
On the other hand... the B1 level [cityam.com] which is required is the equivalent of "GCE AS level / lower grade A-level" [gostudylink.net] which is the equivalent of a 13th-grade exam. [wikipedia.org]
Which about 55% of UK students don't take. [www.gov.uk]
Meaning that 55% of UK citizens, raised and educated in UK, don't qualify.
Or that they would have to fork up 200 pounds to take (and pass) an "expected for university admission" level of knowledge of English.
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On the other hand... the B1 level [cityam.com] which is required is the equivalent of "GCE AS level / lower grade A-level" [gostudylink.net] ...
From their description I'd argue that it's not AS level, it's more GCSE than AS level. But then maybe exams have just gotten that much easier in my time..
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>> ...still need subtitles and a dictionary to fully understand a Guy Ritchie movie.
Speak for yourself. I presume by "English Speaking" you're including Americans. As a Brit living in the US It's more than clear to me that what they speak actually isn't English, its American.
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Speak for yourself. I presume by "English Speaking" you're including Americans. As a Brit living in the US It's more than clear to me that what they speak actually isn't English, its American.
Our funny accents give it away, don't they?
Re:Most "English speaking" people... (Score:5, Informative)
From the article:
"Drivers must have B1 level English, or the equivalent of a GCSE in the subject".
FYI This is nowhere near A level.
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English isn't the native language for someone from Lavaturia or Kbongistan.
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It's not really about English language skills. It's about reducing immigration. Discourage people from coming to the UK to do these kinds of job by setting a high bar for them.
B1 level English is already a prerequisite for immigration. [www.gov.uk]
If anything, B1 being a level of the same tests one takes whether one is coming to UK to study or work (university enrollment has a slightly higher minimal grade [britishcouncil.org]), this requirement practically guarantees that only immigrants will be driving for Uber.
They had to get that qualification in order to enter the country.
All some UK citizens have is a driver's license.
Both groups still need a Private Hire Vehicle license, a valid credit/debit card and a pro
Re:Uber need to get a clue. (Score:4, Interesting)
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I don't talk to my Uber driver. He/she knows where I want to go and how to get there. I don't care what language he/she speaks.
Re:Uber need to get a clue. (Score:5, Insightful)
How is that racist? IATA requires all air traffic controllers around the world to be able to respond to aircraft that request service in English [wikipedia.org].
Pursuant to requirements of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), ATC operations are conducted either in the English language or the language used by the station on the ground.[2] In practice, the native language for a region is normally used; however, the English language must be used upon request.[
Language != race, you moron. Same as religion != race, despite what Trump wants to believe.
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How is that racist? IATA requires all air traffic controllers around the world to be able to respond to aircraft that request service in English [wikipedia.org].
Oh wow. Then how will they understand "Mayday!" (which comes from the French m'aider). Chaos should surely ensue.
Also, race is massively misunderstood. The 'races' of humanity are nothing more than gigantic extended families.
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How is that racist? IATA requires all air traffic controllers around the world to be able to respond to aircraft that request service in English.
Oh wow. Then how will they understand "Mayday!" (which comes from the French m'aider). Chaos should surely ensue.
The English language contains many French words or French derived words. "Mayday" is one such English word. So no, aircraft are not using "French" when they declare an emergency.
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They speak english, yes. But actually they do use "french" when they declare an emergency. ... and they are supposed to be pronounced french. Of course the americans don't do that. However the british do. (I'm sailing often enough in "the channel" ...)
The intro to a message that is not private are: MAYDAY, PAN PAN and SECURITE
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Same for coastal radio stations and boat owners that want to have an SRC/LRC (shot range/long range radio certification) aka a license to use a radio. Many countries do not require such a license so far, but lots of those are now switching to require it, e.g. France. Ofc. in Germany you require a license to operate such a radio, and that implies you can understand MAYDAY/PAN PAN/ and SECURITÃ messages which are always in local language AND english. Well, MAYDAY not necessarily in local language, mostly
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>> England is clearly being racist by banning non-whites from driving taxis.
I'm presuming you're actually being sarcastic, but if not, then Its actually you who's playing the racist card by assuming that non-native speakers necessarily aren't white. You realise that the majority of the EU is white non-English people right?
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No they voted to get away from the EU.
Apparently its actually you that just cant stop injecting that racist shit into everything.
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Didn't the UK just vote to get away from the non-white EU?
Right, because the UK did so want to be part of the white EU but not the non-white EU (mainly Spain, Greece and Italy).
Oh wait, do Slavs count as white...?
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I think most people believe the ban is racist because Trump explicitly said during the campaign that he was going to ban all muslims.
Here's a big clue for "most people", then: Islam is not a race, and Muslims are followers of Islam. Islam is a religion/political ideology based on tyrannical rule over people's lives, and as such is not compatible with Western values.
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Islam is a religion/political ideology based on tyrannical rule over people's lives, and as such is not compatible with Western values.
That is wrong. Just like Capitalizm does not imply Democracy, Islam does not imply Sharia, hence it is just a religion and not a political ideology. And like Christianity e.g. there are plenty of flavours of Islam.
Lern to know your enemy, if you think you have one!
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Bullshit. If that was the case why were only a small handful of Muslim majority countries restricted instead of all of them?
Try oil. There's far more cause to ban Saudi Arabia, where most of the 9/11 terrorists were from, as was all their financing, and their leader Osama bin Laden.
Obama based list based on ISIS/Daesh control (Score:2)
Bullshit. If that was the case why were only a small handful of Muslim majority countries restricted instead of all of them?
Umm alot of the other countries he owns hotels or other ventures in.
Obama created the list of seven nations, and he did so based on large areas of those countries being under ISIS/Daesh control or influence.
Re:Obama based list based on ISIS/Daesh control (Score:4, Informative)
Obama increased the checks for issuing visas. He didn't retroactively invalidate ones that were already issued.
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We had this thing called an election because we wanted someone else making the rules.
Actually, both you and Trump are delusional. The president doesn't make the rules. Congress does - that's why it's known as the legislative branch - they make the legislation. The executive branch is in charge of implementation. The judiciary is there to make sure the other two don't f*ck up and pretend they are a law unto themselves and can make shit up as they go along or rule by edict, rather than having to follow the law of the land, including the constitution.
Your education system is broken when it ta
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This is just more right wing racist bs guised as a legitimate concern.
Transport for London, which is pushing this, is chaired by the Mayor of London. He looks just like a right wing racist, doesn't he? [indianexpress.com]
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And you started so strong too. :(
Trump isn't the one trumpeting the Muslim ban as racist. Or Islamophobia as racist.
The courts disagreed, saying the ban was discriminatory. I don't see Trump calling for action against white muslims (yes, they exist).
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Re:Uber need to get a clue. (Score:5, Insightful)
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It is part of a campaign to improve quality and reduce the number of rogue mini-cabs on the road.
Shouldn't the level of quality be up to the customer? If I want to save money, I can choose to go to a low quality restaurant rather than a high quality restaurant. Why shouldn't I be able to do the same when I get a ride? Or do you think there should be a government imposed language test for waiters as well? After all, if the waiter can't speak proper English, they won't be able to ensure the customer has no allergies to the food they are ordering, or able to render proper medical assistance if the din
Re:Uber need to get a clue. (Score:5, Interesting)
Seeing as the UK is a democracy, it already is. And they decided at the ballot box in order to save time having to make the decision every time they get in a damn cab.
Re:Uber need to get a clue. (Score:5, Informative)
Bzzzt, wrong!
"Although Hitler lost the presidential election of 1932, he achieved his goals, when he was appointed chancellor on 30 January 1933." [slashdot.org]
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Shouldn't the level of quality be up to the customer?
No. Otherwise you get all kinds of shady characters buying a car of craigslist stenciling some letters on it and start picking up victims.
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I've never seen an Uber car with anything stenciled on the side. They are usually much nicer and cleaner than taxis.
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ShanghaiBill wrote
Shouldn't the level of quality be up to the customer?
You don't know the quality of the driver's English until he turns up or even until after the ride starts.
Sounds like you follow the Thatcher theory that the market decides best because people are "all-knowing" - so it assumes. But people are not all-knowing.
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You don't know the quality of the driver's English until he turns up or even until after the ride starts.
If I care if the driver speaks English well (I don't), then I would use A DIFFERENT SERVICE, such as a standard black taxi. I know that there is no guarantee with Uber when I choose to use it, but it does offer other features that I do care about, such as a lower price.
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Shouldn't the level of quality be up to the customer?
And how should the customer decide? Jumping into a cab and then after 10 minutes saying: please leave me out here (an no I don't pay!), because I'm not happy with your service?
Or do you think there should be a government imposed language test for waiters as well? Actually in most western countries this is the case, facepalm.
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And how should the customer decide?
A customer has two options:
1. Look at the driver's reviews.
2. Use a service that requires their drivers to speak English well. In London, you can get that with a standard cab, so that is already an option for people that want it and are willing to pay for it.
Actually in most western countries this is the case, facepalm.
Really? MOST western countries have a government mandated language test for waiters? Could you name, say, one?
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Ok, I'll give it a go.
Reducing the number of taxis increases dependency and demand on public transport, which increases the number of public transport jobs, most of which are unionised. The unions fund Sadiq Khan's election campaigns.
Profit.
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Unionized does not mean what you think it means.
The amount of workers who are actually in a union is extremely low.
Unions don't fund "campaigns", neither can they by law nor would the public accept this.
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Oh ffs. The Transport and General Workers Union had over 800k members before it merged with Amicus to create the Unite union with 1.4m members. Aslef and the RMT have 100k between them.
That's a lot of union funding: Unions provide 40-60% (depending on year) of the Labour Party's funding. The Labour party fund political campaigns, e.g. the mayoral election in London, which they'll have spent probably just over £400k on.
This doesn't even include the various strike actions intended to damage the cu
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Unions don't fund "campaigns", neither can they by law nor would the public accept this.
Baloney. Unions are, by far, the biggest donors to the UK Labor Party.
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Nothing to do with Brexit. The London mayor, Sadiq Khan (a Muslim and son of a Pakistani bus driver) backs the language test. It is part of a campaign to improve quality and reduce the number of rogue mini-cabs on the road.
How about making people feel comfortable by being able to get a cab with a driver that speaks the language of their choice? Then we could have multiple language tests.
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Re:Uber need to get a clue. (Score:5, Informative)
The classes for The Knowledge (you have to have this to be a black cabbie) are in English, so you've got no chance of passing if you don't understand the language.
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"The Knowledge" is a quaint artifact of a bygone era. Today we have GPS and navigation apps with real time traffic information. No need for any knowledge (or language for that matter). My Uber driver knows where I want to go and how to get there... always. Don't talk to the driver.
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They aren't.
They have plenty of tests to make which they can not even attempt and most certainly not pass without proper english skills.
Re: Uber need to get a clue. (Score:2)
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That is truly one of the most desperate and incompetent attempts at a hybrid strawman/trolling that I can recall seeing...
Thank you so much, I really appreciate it!
The sad part is I've actually heard my English relatives suggest such a thing (the clothing thing). They actually feel really infuriated when they see people wearing foreign clothes on the streets of England. I'm not making it up, I wish I were. And they are not alone in this. Many English people really are terribly xenophobic.
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Some English people feel terribly distressed when they see foreigners wearing their foreign clothing in the street.
Not me. I'd rather be able to recognise a foreigner.
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Some English people feel terribly distressed when they see foreigners wearing their foreign clothing in the street.
Not me. I'd rather be able to recognise a foreigner.
Indeed, there should be legislation to ensure that all French men wear a beret, striped jersey and a string of onions around their necks while visiting the UK. Can't be too careful!
There's Only One Thing They Care About.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually... (Score:2)
Wait, doesn't the UK require some minimum level of literacy before you can get a driver's license?
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
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I don't speak or read German, but I was able to read the place names while driving through Gernany. Although, I'll admit that there can be doubt sometimes. For example, try looking for a sign to "Venice" while in Italy.
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Mainstream American beers are served ridiculously cold to hide the fact that they don't actually taste of anything.
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I believe that the answer to that is an affirmative NO. It's possible in the EU to take driving tests with an interpreter.
As others have stated, the putative driver still needs to be able to read and understand road signs (which are generally either place names or are not textual).
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Yes, in a sense. There is a vision test, where the examiner asks you to read a sign some distance away, before starting the car. But that is it as far as I can remember.
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London has one of the best cab drivers in the world due to requirement about memorizing nearly the entirely of the city map. They call it a "knowledge" and it takes year or more of training before they can become a cab driver.
I get upset when any taxi driver isn't using a navigation tool with access to current traffic patterns. If my company isn't paying for the ride I'll often have Google Maps open on my phone to make sure the driver isn't taking a poor route. No amount of human "knowledge" is better than a real time traffic updated navigation app.
Re:more for taxi drivers (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd say there are at least some times when a certain amount of human "knowledge" beats the magic app box.
I agree that drivers who use real time traffic data are likely to do a better job, but having a basic understanding of the entire city's street layout without being beholden to a GPS device is a really valuable skill for a driver. The tech can certainly augment human knowledge by providing dynamically changing information they couldn't otherwise know, but it's an inferior substitute for a driver who instantly knows several viable routes to get where they're going.
Re:more for taxi drivers (Score:4, Interesting)
I live in Las Vegas, NV. The roads are plagued with a sea of traffic cones. Google maps doesnt account for that unless there is an accident or the road is completely closed. I've been driving service work around Las Vegas since I was 15. After 15 years of driving this city daily. Google maps can not get you from one end to the other faster than I can. I have guys I work with call me and ask whats the fastest way to get from point A to point B. Human Knowledge beats shitty "AI" Algorithms all day. Also I can do it without siphoning your personal information along the way..
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In London? Fuck yes, human knowledge has a serious edge over a real time traffic updated navigation app.
The app wont know the traffic patterns ten minutes and two miles away. The driver will.
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Black Cabs charge by distance so the driver will take you the shortest way. If they think you can save time by another route, they will generally ask the customer first as it will cost more.
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No amount of human "knowledge" is better than a real time traffic updated navigation app.
That is in most cases wrong. Neither does such an App naturally have all the traffic infos, nor does it know the "sneak ways" a cab can use. E.g. we have pedestrian areas in my city, no map will tell you to go through it: but cabs are allowed to do so. Then again the cabs are on radio and get updates much faster.
And yes: in germany if you want to have a "cab license" you are required to memorize the map of the city, to
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Emergency services are conducted in English...
What does that even mean? A howling siren, a tracheotomy - these don't require language.
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Whoosh~
Invalid whoosh. Cab drivers need to communicate with their customers in order to provide a minimum level of service. Teachers don't need to be able to drive in order to provide a minimum level of service.
Maybe I'm missing something. . . (Score:5, Insightful)
. . . but as an initial point, what's wrong with requiring drivers in ENGLAND to show mastery of ENGLISH ??
But secondly, that's actually a minor hurdle, compared to the "knowledge" required to pass the legendarily hard London Cab Drive License Test [nytimes.com].
Specifically:
To achieve the required standard to be licensed as an “All London” taxi driver you will need a thorough knowledge, primarily, of the area within a six-mile radius of Charing Cross. You will need to know: all the streets; housing estates; parks and open spaces; government offices and departments; financial and commercial centres; diplomatic premises; town halls; registry offices; hospitals; places of worship; sports stadiums and leisure centres; airline offices; stations; hotels; clubs; theatres; cinemas; museums; art galleries; schools; colleges and universities; police stations and headquarters buildings; civil, criminal and coroner’s courts; prisons; and places of interest to tourists. In fact, anywhere a taxi passenger might ask to be taken.
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London taxi (black cab) drivers are different from private hire (usually "normal" cars with a meter fitted as well as slightly more exotic things like limo and minibus hire).
Black cabs have privileges that private hire don't with regards to road access, taxi ranks and other similar things and have the requirement of the Knowledge in addition to the checks required for private hire. Private hire cars (which normally need to be "pre-booked" by phone) or have a limited number of allowed pick up locations, hav
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. . . but as an initial point, what's wrong with requiring drivers in ENGLAND to show mastery of ENGLISH ??
Because the UK as a whole decided to bring in tons of people who don't speak English into their country, and now those people want to make a living. And also because at no point in the "hail the car with an app", "type in destination", "get in the car", "wait" and "leave the car" process do you need to talk to the Uber driver.
But secondly, that's actually a minor hurdle, compared to the "knowledge" required to pass the legendarily hard London Cab Drive License Test
At this point, a test of a person's ability at memorizing locations is entirely pointless. If Google Maps can pass that test, then everyone using it should automatically pass it. In fa
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Actually, as I'm told, several UK Governments in succession decided to bring in tons of people who don't speak English, and then failed to require that they learn the national tongue. And while Google Maps is pretty good. . . it can glitch, and can have trouble deciphering vague descriptions. . . .
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Actually, as I'm told, several UK Governments in succession decided to bring in tons of people who don't speak English, and then failed to require that they learn the national tongue. .
That makes sense, because as a Spaniard with thousands of British citizens living in my country I can assure you almost none of them have bothered to learn even basic Spanish and in fact many get upset if you can't speak to them in English.
Re: Maybe I'm missing something. . . (Score:2)
And also because at no point in the "hail the car with an app", "type in destination", "get in the car", "wait" and "leave the car" process do you need to talk to the Uber driver.
If I may state a fact, you are a disingenuous idiot.
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That's a brilliant article!
To wish I had points to upvote...
Threatened by literacy (Score:2)
Re: Threatened by literacy (Score:2)
Level of testing (Score:2)
i don't think there is an argument that a cab driver should speak the language of the country they are working in, and as a heavy user of Uber in London, I've never had a driver who was unable to speak to me.
If you look up the tests, you'll find that they are heavy on written English - complex comprehensions, writing short essays. I don't see why that is remotely necessary for a cab driver.
It has far more to do with the traditional cabs attempting to secure their market.
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There is a lightyear's worth of difference between a London Cab and an Uber. London Cabbies are required to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the geography of London: not just the roads, but where every possible venue is. . .
Re: Level of testing (Score:2)
Satnav has made that knowledge utterly irrelevant. I'm sitting in an uber right now - no idea if the driver knows where he is going, but he can follow instructions.
My journey will cost about £13 in an uber rather than £25 in a cab. Nicer car, too.
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From my experience, most immigrants have a better grasp of the English language than the locally born & bred cabbies.
I'm all for this test, however I don't think it should be restricted just to those with foreign passports...
No London Knowledge test? black cab drivers (Score:2)
No London Knowledge test? black cab drivers spend a lot of time studying to pass that test also you need to pay for the many tests needed to pass and uber drivers can just start driving?
Re: No London Knowledge test? black cab drivers (Score:2)
Uber is a minicab firm and minicab drivers follow a different set of rules to black cab drivers.
They could lose their jobs? GOOD. (Score:3, Insightful)
Its a matter of public safety that I can clearly communicate with the driver. If I speak English I need to have the driver speak English, and if I am in an English speaking country I am going to statistically speak English. If the driver does not have the basic skills for the country they are working in the should be forced to get these very basic skills and if they lose the job they have for not having them then that is simply the free market at work!
Bewar Pandora's box (Score:2)
Uber's angle should be obvious (Score:2)
OK Google (Score:2)
The value of speaking English (Score:4, Interesting)
I once got into a taxi at an airport in Chicago. Before we set off the driver pointed at the meter talking in thick Pidgin English that I could barely understand. The only word I could pick out was "meter." I just nodded politely and said yes because I wanted to get to my hotel for a meeting. When I got to the hotel he started wrangling with me to about paying more than was on the meter, apparently he had turned it off at some stage of the journey for some unfathomable reason. He got really belligerent about it too. The hotel was reimbursing me for the trip and after about five minutes of him, the hotel concierge and me trying to discuss it I just asked the manager to reimburse him what he wanted because I hadn't a clue what was going on and it was only another $20 or so.
I know that some people like apps like Uber because they minimize human communication, but it's still a vital skill. As long as you're not asking drivers to write a book report on Ulysses by Joyce, expecting them to communicate clearly in the local language is not too much to ask for.
London Taxi Drivers? (Score:2)
I thought I had read somewhere that Taxis drivers in London England were the most heavily skilled, regulated, and trained. Your training was supposed to be equivalent to like a bachelors degree. Someone did brain scans, and the amount of geographical data in them means they are wired significantly differently than the average mans.
And now the only requirement is that you can speak English?
What Disruption (Score:2)
The only thing Uber is doing is making easy to run taxis without obeying the rules. These already existed, they were called bandit taxis, they aren't disrupting anything.
This is the equivalent of starting a car company and making vehicles that don't obey crash safety and emissions laws.
An abomination and Government over reach (Score:4)
An English language test? What a stupid idea! If you give in now, next they will demand all drivers to know how to drive cars. Will demand all drivers to know names of neighborhoods and streets too. We. must. put. a. stop. to. government. overreach.
25 years ago (Score:2)
A friend of mine, Australian, flew to the USA. Don't remember the airport. He took a "cab" and after 30 minutes driving in circles the driver gave him a map and asked him to find the route to the destination. The drivers english was incomprehensible. Turned out he did not even understand what the destination was supposed to be. It was not an "official cab", though.
sorry but.. (Score:2)
It's (not) brain surgery ... (Score:2)
Y'know what really pisses me off? The requirement that I gotta pass a bunch of tests like the 'man' says in order to pursue my career as a $%$@$ brain surgeon. And don't start me on the insurance costs... #$$@# the man! What am I supposed to do about my livelihood, which has been lost owing to these restrictive laws and regulations?? You're taking away my way of making a living!!
[sniffle]
Just to clarify: fuck Uber.
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Funnily enough people from other parts of Britain, who I'm pretty sure don't understand him any better than you, don't complain and in fact think it's quaint.
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The European/Worldwide language for non-natives is called EFL.
It's a subset of English but would probably get them by in Britain, and probably get them through an English test.