Female Engineer Sues Tesla, Describing a Culture Of 'Pervasive Harassment' (theguardian.com) 360
A female engineer has spoken out about a discrimination lawsuit against Tesla that she filed last year. AJ Vandermeyden, 33, has accused Tesla of ignoring her claims of "pervasive harassment" and says she has suffered "mental distress" and "humiliation." From a report on The Guardian: Vandermeyden, 33, shared her story with the Guardian at a time when Silicon Valley is reeling from the explosive allegations of former Uber engineer Susan Fowler. Offering a rare public account of discrimination from a tech worker who remains employed at her company, Vandermeyden said her dedication to Tesla motivated her to advocate for fair treatment and reforms -- despite the serious risks she knows she faces for going public. "Until somebody stands up, nothing is going to change," she said in a recent interview, her first comments about a discrimination lawsuit she filed last year. "I'm an advocate of Tesla. I really do believe they are doing great things. That said, I can't turn a blind eye if there's something fundamentally wrong going on." Vandermeyden began at Tesla in 2013 and was eventually promoted to a manufacturing engineering position in the general assembly department, which consisted mostly of men and where she was paid less than male engineers whose work she directly took over, according to her complaint.
Shop mentality vs office mentality (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't know enough about the salary aspect. She well might be underpaid becase of sexism, or she might have been brought in to do the job because they wanted someone that cost less in that role, and they didn't feel that the role justified the salary they previously paid.
Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality (Score:5, Insightful)
This could be as simple and common as the person she replaced had been in that job a while, advanced in it (including pay raises), and was now moving to an even more advanced job. She, OTOH, was new to that position, so might be expected to enter at the low end of the pay scale for it.
Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality (Score:5, Interesting)
The only real metric is comparing salary scale across multiple people in the same position or with the same effective job duties. If someone's role is unique then it is difficult to gauge whether or not salary is fair. If there was only one ME in this type of capacity, and a previous staff member left for a new one to be brought in then it's hard to demonstrate any particular reason for differences.
I remember Dad talking about one at his work when he was getting close to retirement- they decided to replace technical managers as they retired with non-technical managers. The technical managers came up through the technical working side of the shop and could essentially do all of the major jobs in addition to managing, and their pay was essentially the senior technical person's plus a reasonable bump up for their managerial duties. Eventually it was determined that they spent more time managing than they did directly touching technical matters, so as they retired or otherwise left they were replaced with nontechnical managers. This theoretically resulted in a cost-savings as the new managers probably made half to two-thirds the salary of the senior non-management tech staff, but caused problems when those managers could not themselves offer technical solutions when stressful periods required them to work harder, and it also pissed off technical staff by depriving them of a wrung on the org-chart. In the end I think they had to switch back to technical managers as someone finally realized that underlying understanding was necessary in order for the managers to make good decisions. Only took half a decade...
Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality (Score:5, Insightful)
The auto industry in general is terrible for women. I once ran a small console software supplier for the auto industry. I think my attitude toward the industry is best summed up by the time when (at a meeting with major figures of a major auto maker) my sales rep privately informed me that they're skipping the third step of how they usually make deals, on account of me. The first step being discussing the project over a ridiculous-priced dinner. The second step being discussing it at the bar. The third step - skipped - being discussing it at a strip club.
I had previously heard rumours of stuff like this, such as a HR rep at a startup automaker complaining to me that their sales rep was submitting strip club receipts for reimbursement as business expenses. But I got to see the culture firsthand.
So when I hear about this sort of stuff at Tesla, I'm not surprised. Sad - I'd like to hope that they'd have a different culture, since they're trying to make a different kind of car - but not surprised.
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I call bullshit. Have you ever tried to get a receipt from a stripper while sitting in gyno row? It's impossible, I know.
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Receipt for the drinks you fucking idiot.
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Drinks are a legit business expense. Why shouldn't I expense the drinks when I take a client out?
We generally take clients where they want to go. Titty bar or super fancy restaurant, we bill it all back to their employers anyhow (plus 20% for the accounting costs).
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The only point I see: Some people don't like that others might go for entertainment they don't like, especially on business trips. Want to have veto power over client entertainment they are not even present for.
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I call bullshit. Have you ever tried to get a receipt from a stripper while sitting in gyno row? It's impossible, I know.
"Well you see, I ran my card through the slot presented to me, but the printer must've been broken..."
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Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality (Score:5, Informative)
I was working in a print shop many years ago, and as far as I was aware there were only 2 of us in the area, both guys, and we were telling blond jokes. An hour or so later my companion and I were summoned to the department directors office and told that we had been the subject of a sexual harassment complaint for telling inappropriate joke at work. A women had let herself in the back door and was literally stealing special forms paper and had overheard us telling the jokes and complained to management. We, both guys were forced to take a sexual harassment education class and issue a formal apology to a woman who was then fired for stealing supplies. The bottom line is it is not how you intend the joke or to whom you are directing it to, but how anyone who hears it interprets it, whether you intended them to hear it or not.
Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality (Score:5, Insightful)
My workplace can be very uptight and on first offenses that don't involve physical contact they usually just leave it with a warning. It sounds like they figured they would have to play rules-lawyer all of the way around in order to preclude her from having grounds to complain for being fired when she was doing what she wasn't supposed to be doing.
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Replying to AC, so kind of pointless, but what you are saying in 100% false.
I don't swear and find it offensive so I have been around the block on this a few times. Swearing is a gray area of when it is and when it isn't harassment.
Swearing using human anatomy terms is pretty much always harassment if someone complains, no questions asked, first offense is still an offense
Other swearing is based on the person you are talking to or even in the area, but as it is such a grey area, first offense is pretty muc
ass|u|me (Score:5, Interesting)
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Bad culture isn't something you can win a lawsuit over. If you treat everybody like shit, you're not exactly singling anybody out for unfair treatment. And I've heard the same thing as ~bhcompy about SpaceX, that it's basically "you're lucky getting to work here at this badass company so we're going to treat you like shit and if you don't like it fuck off." Probably really cool for somebody in their 20s who wants to make space rockets, but if you've got a family, fuck no.
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What grounds would a male, esp. a white able-bodied straight male, have to sue if he was legitimately a salaried employee? He wouldn't be part of any actual or de-facto protected class. It's legal to expect salaried workers to finish their work even if it takes extra effort.
Horrible...if true (Score:5, Insightful)
Forgive me, but past accusations haven't exactly primed me to believe this. If true, it's absolutely something that should be corrected, and she should be lauded for having the courage to make it public. ...however, if it's sour grapes because she didn't get the promotion she wanted, I wonder if we'll ever hear about it?
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The problem is the minor stuff gets ignored (and honestly, a good deal of it is just innocent human being human stuff which is WHY it gets ignored), and a lot of the genuine complaints are so beyond our experience that when they're brought up they sound just as outrageous as the false ones.
I'm kind of on board with "Don't make a big deal of it in the press until it's gone through the courts". There's no reasonable way to judge what happened based on whether the claims seem credible or not, when reality is
Re:Horrible...if true (Score:5, Insightful)
In my experience, I'd say a majority of sex and gender related claims are false. People use hotbutton issues to throw a fit when things don't go their way. Didn't get the promotion? Obviously it was because of your gender. Group of people laughing near you? They're obviously making fun of you. and so on...and so on.
That said, I have seen situations of real, honest to goodness harassment and discrimination. Worse, I've seen companies try to "quietly" handle it ( ie: hush it up ). Those who step up and refuse to be victims have my utmost respect.
However, they appear to be the minority.
Re:Horrible...if true (Score:4, Interesting)
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I've hear lots of complaints about sexism in the work place, but never actually seen any in person, (besides reverse sexism). Naturally, as a man, I probably would see a lot less of it and most of my coworkers currently are women, so it would probably be very difficult for sexism to fly in this environment.
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There's no such thing as reverse sexism. When women are sexist towards men, it is still sexism. Sexism isn't a gender specific term, and it can occur both ways.
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It sounds like sour grapes. She seems to believe that getting promoted into management is a meritocracy, when it is anything but. There are even people who avoid being promoted into management because of the stigma of having to deal with things they don't find interesting (anything that is outside of their field). In reality, managers do very little work related to their field of expertise. They use their years of expertise to help guide the project along, but they deal with all the bureaucratic nonsense, a
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The troubling thing in these situations is always the possibility of the sour grapes/personal vendetta scenario you describe. That said, the very doubt this automatically raises means that a prudent person doesn't take such an accusation lightly.
As I say to my kids, with seven billion people on the planet you can find examples of virtually any kind of behavior you can imagine. It doesn't make that behavior normal or representative of anything.
So you can't jump to any conclusions one way or the other. You
Let's take a second and think about this. (Score:5, Informative)
"which consisted mostly of men and where she was paid less than male engineers whose work she directly took over" This seems to imply this just because she is a woman, I'm a dude and I've been in this position myself, hell I've even been in a engineering management position and made less than the guys I was in charge of of.
Sure this all could just be because she's a woman, but there is at least a real possibility that there were other reasons contributing to her situation.
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Same here - my last project manager was also in his early 30s and in charge of directing me, gathering product requirements and ensuring my work met specifications made far less than I did (but more than he did in his last position).
We also, as an established team, ribbed him for being the new guy and for trying to implement new processes (mostly good naturedly but there was a definite attitude of "I'm going to increase our productivity because I'm cool" - Think the Lieutenant in Aliens and you've got the r
Re: Let's take a second and think about this. (Score:2)
I've seen more experienced people get a matter through the hard part and then hand it over to a more junior person. I've also seen people fired because they earned too much and then more junior people hired to replace them and yet they do the same work.
Plenty of explanations that aren't sexism. Have to wait and see what evidence is offered to support the claim.
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She is not an "Engineer". (Score:5, Insightful)
After this, following claims that she was held to unreasonable performance standards and subject to sexual harassment on the shop floor, , she transfered to the "purchasing department", which Tesla was apparently glad to accomodate.
These are simple facts which may or may not be relevant to the case, which appears to me that Tesla hired this woman, and has been happy to allow her to shift roles in the company and build her skillset. Apparently, she just purchased a Model-S. I have worked in IT for 15 years, and I sure can't afford a Model-S. So, anyway, sounds like a pretty damned good job to me.
Re: She is not an "Engineer". (Score:5, Funny)
She is an Engineer in the same way that someone working at the Apple Store is a Genius.
Re:She is not an "Engineer". (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:She is not an "Engineer". (Score:4, Insightful)
However, having regards equal pay, the deal is this: Her public linked in shows her to have been a pharmaceutical sales rep for ~4 years before joining Tesla. After a year in Tesla sales, she became a project coordinator. 7 months after this she was transfered to "assembly engineer". Now, I have no idea the quality of persons that she replaced, but if she, a 31 year old with zero previous mechanical and assembly experience (as evidenced by her resume), I certainly wouldn't expect her pay to be the same as a guy who has been working in a mechanical assembly position for even 5 years, to say nothing of if these were guys with 15 years on her.
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She definitely shouldn't have mixed the harassment and equal pay claims. That will only hurt her case. The "equal pay" claims will be impossible to prove anything and will make her just look like she nagging and therefore draw more skepticism into her harassment claims. The harassment, if true, is unacceptable. That kind of behavior is impossible to ever get away from completely, but management's reaction to it especially within a company that public, should be way better.
To be fair for Tesla, if the previous holders of the position she took over have extensive experience at other manufacturers it is quite possible that they qualified for a higher wage based on experience alone. I work with people that do the exact same job I do but have 30 more years with the company than I do. I would expect them to make more than me. Same job rarely equals same pay between people unless it is a very cookie-cutter and dead end job.
Re: She is not an "Engineer". (Score:2, Informative)
Most replacements make less than the person they replace. Often the new person has less experience doing that specific task.
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Can't get away from? Jesus are you in IT?
Sexual harassment is nearly non-existent in the fortune 500 precisely because these companies have learned. They have zero tolerance policies towards this behavior and if you do it you will be written up and depending on the severity you might get marched to the door by security. Management does not tolerate this behavior because it can't be tolerated, the only solution to this type of behavior is immediate punishment.
I don't work in an IT field, I work in an enginee
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Looks like its a legal specialty now (Score:5, Informative)
>Therese Lawless, Vandermeyden’s lawyer,
> who represented former Reddit CEO Ellen Pao in her high-profile discrimination lawsuit against venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers.
Well, we know how that turned out for Ellen.
>Vandermeyden recently took out a hefty loan to buy the cheapest version of the Model S Tesla car and has a reservation for the upcoming Model 3
So after launching a potentially very expensive lawsuit you decide to get a "hefty" loan and buy a Model S? Huh.
Maybe she was just too dumb to negotiate better... (Score:4, Insightful)
" where she was paid less than male engineers whose work she directly took over, according to her complaint."
So why accept/keep the job if she's unhappy with the compensation?
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Employment negotiation is a complex dynamic.
My first and only blue chip job, I was fairly junior just a few years into career yet I firmly established as able to deliver and innovate and provide tech that opened up alot of new rev for them, but always been rubbish at asserting and negotiation. Some freshly minted grads came in, barely could compile a hello world, and I found out they started on 20% more than me. Was so angry about it and acted out of character driven by the emotion of indignation. Kicked u
Court of public opinion dismissed (Score:2)
If you believe you have been harassed then first go find a judge and pursuit your case in civil/criminal court.
When there is an actual finding feel free to report that in a news article. Don't go to the public with an unsubstantiated one sided story not one member of the public is in any position to properly evaluate in order to push emotional buttons and exert PR pressure.
God knows most of us have dealt with people who just make shit up for personal gain or who expend more mental energy screwing over cowo
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Underpaid can afford Model S? (Score:2)
If she can afford a Model S while working on the Assembly line I don't think she is underpaid. I have 15 years working in IT and a Masters from a top 10 University and I cant afford a Model S. (Unless she thinks the harassment suit is her big payday and she has already started spending the settlement money)
The catcalls is an issue Women have faced ever since they came on the factory floor. In this day and age it should not happen. However the responsibility for that is on the mothers of the guys doing the c
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I believe tesla workers get amazing discounts on the cars. Kind of a Henry Ford tactic- the more of them that drive them the more the cars are seen on the roads.
This whole summary is misleading... (Score:2, Informative)
This whole summary is misleading.
I am a bit skeptical... (Score:4, Interesting)
Note: I am pro union, and think Tesla workers are making a mistake by rejecting UAW. I also disagree with the UAWs tactics in regards to Tesla.
The UAW has been sending workers in to Tesla to incite problems and try to rally workers to unionize. Her claim may be valid, but needs thorough investigation to verify. It is entirely possible she is either a plant, or paid off by the union to make a rallying point.
By all other records Tesla pays exceedingly well, has stellar benefits, and treats workers well. Tons of overtime requirements- but that is normal in the auto industry, and Tesla pays generous overtime rates. The workers are not interested in a union because they don't need one and as such don't want the fees. This may bite them in the ass later, but for now their wishes should be honored by the union.
Here we go again (Score:2)
another woman complaining about a bad company at which she's chosen to remain. Yes, HR will always protect the company, that's why the company pays for an HR department. If you don't like what's going on, and if you don't like how you're treated, and if you don't like the amount that you're being paid, then you get to do the one thing that every man gets to do -- you get to threaten to quit. That's called negotiating to get what you want. And most of the time, you get to leave. That's exactly what it t
Wolf-crying? (Score:5, Interesting)
If I were to hire in this country, I'd be damn sure not to hire a woman or a minority which had a background in social justice (even a blog post or some classes in college would be a no go). There is just a chance that the person is some sort of fanatic. It sounds awful, but from what I can tell that equates to having a ticking bomb ready to explode under my ass. I don't care what your race or your ethnicity is, if shit hits the fan bad things may happen, and the last thing I would want is to have a lawsuit for discrimination and a wave of bad publicity for my business. Aww, yes, I am a such an awful person. Well, sorry, and welcome to the real world.
There is that lovely "Women are wonderful" effect (Score:3, Interesting)
Women are wonderful effect [wikipedia.org]
Women's privilege (Score:4, Informative)
I hope this doesn't hurt my chance at promotion (Score:5, Insightful)
from the article:
She is hopeful her lawsuit and public comments wonâ(TM)t end her career at a company she loves.
Would a sane person really think that suing the company they work for won't impact their future with the company?
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All claims should be met with skepticism. You know, innocent until proven guilty.
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"No we have no evidence Musk is a rapist. Yes I know he's got a penis, that is not evidence."
In California, possession of a penis without a valid marriage license is prima facie evidence of being a harasser. Given a marriage license, conviction requires in addition the sworn testimony of a SJW.
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Delorean all over again. For Musk and Uber.
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oh shit.. too late.
No we don't know she's an SJW trying to Kafkatrap Tesla.
No we have no evidence Musk is a rapist. Yes I know he's got a penis, that is not evidence.
How do you know he has a penis?
Sounds like an assumption rather than something you know.
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Re:It's all about experience (Score:5, Insightful)
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This has led to more than one occurrence where I have about fallen over when a Tesla has passed close to me in the parking lot. Once the car started moving on it's own with little else as visual reference I found my body compensating against the movement. Because there was no sound I assumed the car was stationary and I was not. Glancing away and grabbing another car for balance was the only thing preventing becoming one with the pavement.
Re:Apps for harrassment? (Score:5, Funny)
When I was a kid in HS we used to harass other drivers. 2 or 3 of us (separate cars) would pull up next to an old lady at a red light. On cue, we'd all start to reverse slowly, while watching the old lady freakout, thinking her brakes were letting her roll into traffic.
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Omg you're an inspiration!
I wish I had thought of this when I was younger. :)
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OK thats evil but funny. Am I a bad person that I find that funny?
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Tesla cows don't make any moo. they are completely silent, you only hear their hooves.
added bonus, their farts are released in another location...
OK, so it's only a bonus if you don't live in said location...
Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? (Score:5, Insightful)
there is a shitton of evidence
Blog posts are not evidence. If you are aware of any actual evidence point it out.
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there is a shitton of evidence
Blog posts are not evidence. If you are aware of any actual evidence point it out.
Sure, they are. They're rebuttable evidence, and she can be cross-examined about them, but they're certainly evidence.
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In Fowler's case I would expect she'd be able to get the testimony of the other women who reported the manger who harassed her. The big problem there was Uber HR saying "well it's his first offense there's nothing we can do" but many women told Fowler they had also reported him.
Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? (Score:5, Funny)
she says she has
Does she or doesn't she have them? I can say I have a pet unicorn in my back yard, too.
(It's a double-twist since I have neither a unicorn nor, in fact, a back yard.)
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If you're gonna demand proof all the time
Yep, pretty much. Proof or fuck off. The tyranny you'd inflict without due process is unacceptable. And if you either can't be bothered to capture the necessary proof or the facts are too subtle to detect then I'm not interested in your plight.
if getting by on your looks is NOT how you want to live
Lots of unattractive women that can't rely on their looks are richer than me. They get by just fine.
And for the record, zero evidence surfaced in this thread. Susan Fowler made an evidence free blog post. The rest is Internet sperg. At least Vandermeyden file
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And thus the posturing and dick-waving continues, on and on ad nauseam.
Can I invite everybody to take a step back from the namecalling and the petty squabbling over insignificant details? I think, if we look at it calmly, we will probably find that there is definitely a certain culture of bias against women in science and technology; this is not surprising - it was not all that long ago, when women were expected to stay at home and do "female things", and the men were supposed to go to work and make all the
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It depends on the environment. In a place with very few women the likelihood of ugly women getting hit on rises exponentially. Everything is relative. Beauty is after all, in the eye of the beholder. Typically there are always going to be some creepy bosses that think for some reason they have a right to expect favors from women that work for them. These guys should be removed for the good of everyone including the company. I really do not understand why a company is willing to expose themselves to th
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Well, I don't know about the amount of evidence adding up to a proverbial shitton, but let's suppose for sake of argument Folwer's accusations are true. It doesn't automatically follow that she'd want to or ought to sue.
On the other hand suppose she is fabricating this story. It doesn't necessarily follow that she'd want to sue either, for obvious reasons.
CONCLUSION: Fowler not suing Uber is not evidence of anything one way or the other, because you can start with either assumption and concoct perfectly
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>
Women then complain that men don't make the first move anymore.
I don't think women EVER wanted to be cat called and hollered at- and they still don't. Yes, you probably have to use more caution and common sense when asking someone out now-a-days, but this article has absolutely nothing to do with that. She wasn't complaining about being asked out.
Re:Huh? Harassment? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, they did. This is just your PC re-education brainwashing talking. When middle-aged Québecoise housewives come back from their cheap all-inclusive trips to Cuba, they all gush about how "real men" hit on them aggressively over there.
Try the same thing in Montreal? "RAPE CULTURE!!!!!!!!!"
Re:Huh? Harassment? (Score:5, Interesting)
Agreed. Living in California. My wife is French. In her own words "most men here don't seem to have any balls" Its amazing how many guys are afraid to look at and try to interact with women (regardless if they are married or single); so many US men have been conditioned to be soft/nurturing types. And women have become conditioned to believe any male interaction is harassment. However, many women actually like guys who act like men and give women attention. Not talking about the attention from aggressive alpha-males who are macho and groping. Rather, guys who understand and appreciate that women are different than men and rejoice in the feminine side.
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"However, many women actually like guys who act like men and give women attention. Not talking about the attention from aggressive alpha-males who are macho and groping. Rather, guys who understand and appreciate that women are different than men and rejoice in the feminine side"
Kind of but I'd be less categorical in general. The feminine side can also include being clearer about your interest in a specific individual and in each step along the way of a burgeoning relationship.
The Same Men Can't Understand Why Trump Won (Score:2)
Re:Huh? Harassment? (Score:4, Interesting)
>Try the same thing in Montreal? "RAPE CULTURE!!!!!!!!!"
Let's be clear here - *you* can't try the same thing. You don't have the skill.
Those Cuban fellows have spent their whole lives, from long before puberty, learning how to flirt aggressively and attractively, while picking up the subtle cues that let them know when their attention isn't wanted so they can disengage gracefully and keep the door open for future possibilities. It's a dance to make the Tango look trivial in comparison, and they've been steeping in it their whole lives as a cultural pastime.
Barring phenomenal good luck, any attempt by a socially awkward geek to do the same will probably end about as well as letting a cat fly a fighter jet. Even most "players", skilled by their own countries standards, are going to look like awkward teenagers in comparison. But those players will mostly be good enough to not get called out, because they've learned at least enough nonverbal communication to determine if a woman is open to him flirting with her before he's said two words.
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Whether the rest of us are able to do it as well as those phenomenal Cubans or not,
Re:Huh? Harassment? (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree.
Just keep in mind that pretty much every woman out there has faced at least a few, possibly many, shady situations where she has had a legitimate reason to fear the possibility of real harm from a man, and that has skewed her perceptions. (Humans are prey animals, over-generalizing threats is what we do best)
Make sure your attempt is done in consideration of that, and can't be taken as a threat, otherwise you're walking a fine line of with assault charges. And perhaps more importantly to you - shooting yourself in the foot before you even begin.
Also, be a F-ing professional and don't shit where you work. Work relationships are usually a bad idea anyway. If you haven't already established a good rapport with a woman there, and genuinely think that she might be interested in more, then don't complicate both your lives by making unwelcome advances. And if you just can't resist the temptation, and she shoots you down, drop it. Trying to pressure someone into something they don't want is harassment, pure and simple.
And for $deity's sake *definitely* don't get involved with anyone in your chain of command, the potential for abuse and complications are far too high.
Re:Huh? Harassment? (Score:4, Insightful)
>It should not be any easier ruin a man's reputation (and life) with sexual assault accusations, than it is to do the same with any other suspicions of criminality.
I *absolutely* agree.
But you have to also accept the fact that we live in a country where monsters like that Stanford rapist walk away scot-free even when caught in the act, and that rape is normally an incredibly tricky thing to prove. Barring actually being caught in the act, it will always be a he-said she-said charge.
It's an ugly situation all around.
We have a problem with two kinds of monsters
Women who unjustly ruin men's lives with false accusations
And men who unjustly ruin women's lives with rape
We need to rid ourselves of both of them, and I don't see any easy answers. I think though, that the false accusations shall prove a far more tractable problem - if by nothing else than the growing ubiquity of video recorders. For rape though - we've got a very old cultural demon to face. There's an awful lot of folks like that monster's father, who just don't see why a boy's life should be ruined over "a few minutes fun".
Re:Huh? Harassment? (Score:4, Insightful)
No, it's okay when someone *competent* does it in a way that leaves everyone feeling good about the encounter.
It's not harassment if the target enjoyed themselves both at the time and in reflection. Cuba just seems to have a very high percentage of really competent flirtation experts.
Harassment comes in when you force your attention on someone against their will. Doesn't much matter if it's incompetent flirtation or intentional bullying - the effect on the target is the same.
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"When middle-aged Québecoise housewives come back from their cheap all-inclusive trips to Cuba, they all gush about how "real men" hit on them aggressively over there"
Women have explained to me it's obvious that these "real men" are simply looking for a way into Canada.
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Yeah, they just accidently walk around with their tits half hanging out.
Women _want_ to be pursued, but only by the one man they are sending 'fuck me' signals to, not the rest of you nerds. Cat called/hollered? Not usually, but sometimes definitely, especially when young and insecure.
You realize that stick on perky nipples (to be stuck onto the outside of Bras) are a thing?
Have you ever noticed the unique body language of women with nice big tits when frustrated? They stand on tiptoes then let themse
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In the words of the famous de-motivational poster:
Dysfunction: the only consistent feature of all your dissatisfying relationships is you.
Re:Huh? Harassment? (Score:4, Funny)
If they're under me, I already made my move!
BAM!
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There are many people in this world who are in happy relationships precisely from the job.
Making the statement that you are making is pissing on the life happiness that many have gotten, and many will in the future,
which would not happen if they followed the pseudo-intellectual opinions of a few self-absorbed ideologists on the Internet.
Keep that bullshit lesson giving to yourself if you can't look people who actually found happiness in the eyes and tell them that they are wrong,
without looking like an imbe
Re:Huh? Harassment? (Score:5, Insightful)
Power imbalance.
When one person wields authority over another, there is both a temptation to abuse that power, and a temptation on the part of the underling to acquiesce to "requests" from above to avoid retribution. Even if the boss genuinely has no intention of coercion, the underling can't know that for certain, so it's best to tread *very* carefully around such things, or better yet avoid them altogether.
Because even if there is in fact mutual interest - it's going to be almost impossible to keep your professional and private lives separate. Especially when one relationship ends. How would you like your ex being in a position to fire you and tarnish your professional reputation? Or your lover being required to fire you for unrelated reasons? You're both going to have to possess near-superhuman reserves of levelheadedness and emotional compartmentalization for that not to get ugly fast.
I mean sure, if you meet an underling/boss where things just "click" powerfully, maybe it's worth the risk. But if you're smart, you'll make transferring one of you to break the chain of command a very high priority, because it's quite likely to sour both your personal and professional relationship otherwise.
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Please describe this "power imbalance" when a woman can simply say "sexual harassment" with little to no evidence and immediately the "suspect" can lose *his* job?
Who has the power here?
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And an entire company like Uber coming under fire for it.
It's messed up man.
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Overcompensation.
Women have only even been able to vote in the US for just under a century. The pill (another major leap forward in women's autonomy) has been around for half that. We still don't have many women executives, etc. In terms of economic and political power in the US, men still unquestionably have a firm grip on the reigns, and institutional sexism is still a very real thing in most places, with things only slowly changing.
It's going to be at least a few more generations before we really get t
Re:Huh? Harassment? (Score:4, Insightful)
Please describe this "power imbalance" when a woman can simply say "sexual harassment" with little to no evidence and immediately the "suspect" can lose *his* job?
Who has the power here?
Citation needed.
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If I were a manager in my company, and hit on a woman working for me on her first day, I'd expect to be in deep trouble. There are three things that may constitute sexual harassment, and making employment decisions contingent on sexual favors is one of them. Hitting on a subordinate is likely enough to trigger that, even if there is no explicit threat or promise. A manager who harasses an employee is a liability for their employer, and propositioning a new employee seems like a reasonable firing offense
Re:Huh? Harassment? (Score:5, Insightful)
Who has the power here?
No no. Sexual harassment is a very specific kind of action and although it seems like the accuser has all the say about this, in most places I've worked there where clearly defined parameters necessary to establish that harassment actually took place. In order for it to be harassment it must be unwanted behavior that is either obviously harassing or behavior that continues AFTER it was communicated it was unwelcome.
Asking a peer out on a date, once, is not harassment. Continuing to ask after being told to stop asking IS harassment. Giving complements on appearance or dress is not harassment, unless it's communicated that it's unwelcome. Telling off color jokes *might* be harassment if the joke is obviously inappropriate for the office, continuing to do so after somebody asks you to stop IS a problem.
The biggest issue most folks have understanding this is with manager subordinate relationships. This is where things get dicey at times because the subordinate may not feel free to object. The smart manager stays clear of such entanglements and complications by making it a policy NOT to fraternize with the lower ranks. It is here where most of the serious mistakes and career ending events happen. Don't be stupid and don't give a chance for any false accusations to gain root by always having your guard up. Have "private" meetings in public places, offices with windows or don't close your door, make sure your office has windows and if you have an admin that they can observe what's happening in your office. DON'T socialize ALONE with your subordinate, but always make sure there is a group or other parties there. Also, if you catch wind of ANY inappropriate possibly harassing behavior among your subordinates, dig out the HR mandated training because it didn't take the first time and DEAL with the behavior BEFORE it gets out of hand. Project professional behavior and expect the same.
It's not hard, just don't be stupid, keep it professional and if you are the boss, keep witnesses around when dealing with subordinates.
If you do these things: 1. Keep things professional, 2. Stop any behavior when asked, 3. keep your interactions with subordinates appropriate and in public view, you won't have an issue when HR receives a complaint. If you DO have an issue and you where not caught being stupid, then you need to bail anyway because HR is messed up where you work.
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Technically, that's illegal.
it doesn't matter if it's customary.
And in a lawsuit, illegal actions are ... (wait for it) ... illegal.
News flash: you're no longer in a frat at Stanford.
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Hahahaaa zing! Wait a minute...were you serious with that? But...wow.
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Most people buy exactly as much house as they can afford (morons that they are).
Closing price is public information. For first homes, you can more or less back calculate the family income from house price. Have to know if they are veterans and a few other things, but it's pretty direct.
It is useful information for extorting more money from the big cheeses. For example: If you know you are making less money than the moron who's mistakes you are always fixing, you know they can afford to increase your pa
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I'm OK with this sort of preliminary news. First, I'll assume that the well informed reader can differentiate between a lawsuit being filed and a verdict being handed down. So they will take this story with a grain of salt. Second, and much more important; this is material information that could affect the bottom line of the company. It's public information that, absent a news story, would go unnoticed by the average investor not having access to the kinds of research firms and pricey newsletters that the b
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- Ignoring her complaints of “pervasive harassment”.
The article has specifics later: "harassment by men on the factory floor including but not limited to inappropriate language, whistling, and catcalls".
Not nice, but not wholly unexpected either.
This should be wholly unexpected and anyone fighting against this sort of culture should be given the benefit of the doubt. It is a travesty that this is considered "fine" in this day and age and I'll applaud anyone who bucks this trend.