Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Transportation Earth Science

It's Too Hot For Some Planes To Fly In Phoenix (npr.org) 286

In Phoenix on Tuesday, temperatures were forecast to climb as high as 120 degrees Fahrenheit, causing more than 40 American Eagle regional flights out of Phoenix's international airport to be canceled. NPR reports: American Airlines said in a statement that the Bombardier CRJ aircraft used on some shorter routes have a maximum operating temperature of 118 degrees. For bigger jets, the threshold is higher. The carrier says that, for example, Airbus aircraft have a maximum operating temperature of 127 degrees and that for Boeing, it is 126 degrees. As USA Today reports: "Extreme heat affects a plane's ability to take off. Hot air is less dense than cold air, and the hotter the temperature, the more speed a plane needs to lift off. A runway might not be long enough to allow a plane to achieve the necessary extra speed." Bianca Hernandez, a meteorologist with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, tells NPR that Phoenix is seeing an unusually strong high-pressure system, which is causing the soaring temperatures.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

It's Too Hot For Some Planes To Fly In Phoenix

Comments Filter:
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:49PM (#54657643)

    And that's about 49c for the rest of the world.

  • by Camel Pilot ( 78781 ) on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:51PM (#54657659) Homepage Journal

    Time for the city of Phoenix to submit a federal DOE grant to install “goddamn steam” catapults to solve this problem and specify it to be coal fired will be a sure fire way to get approval.

  • Isn't it ironic? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by rmdingler ( 1955220 ) on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:52PM (#54657663) Journal
    The same phenomenon that allowed hot-air balloons to first lift man to the heavens now grounds him.
    • Not exactly the same phenomenon. Heat outside a hot air balloon will ground it even more easily than it grounds an airplane. That's why hot air balloons usually fly in the mornings.

      • Re: Isn't it ironic? (Score:5, Informative)

        by UberVegeta ( 3450067 ) on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:26PM (#54658365)

        I'm up at 0315 for a training flight in a balloon this morning. Sunrise is at 0450. I intend to have landed by 0730, and this has little to do with the heatwave we're experiencing.

        The reason balloons operate near sunrise and sunset is not specifically to do with the temperature, but actually to avoid thermals, which are generate by temperature differences (strictly, different heating rates of areas on the ground). Thermals that would be fairly pathetic for a glider pilot (which I used to be), say anything up to 200 ft/min up or down, would be enough to cause issues for balloons. Meaningful thermals (more than 200 ft/min up or down) would make the balloon very hard to control, since up and down control is the only way a balloon pilot can steer and uncommanded up and down movements (especially on landing!) mean you don't know where you're going to end up.

        As far as temperature is concerned, the balloon flies a bit better in summer but can carry less weight. The balloon is less buoyant in hot air which is thinner as the parent(s) point out, so in general you can carry more weight in winter (or at lower altitudes - "pressure altitude" is still a relevant thing to look up). The big deal with temperature for me is actually that the fuel pressure drops a lot with falling temperature (liquid propane expands and contracts far more than water does). This means that in winter, less fuel is supplied each time I burn, meaning less heat output per burn. I have to burn more frequently to maintain level flight, or constant climb/descent rates.

    • I think what's ironic is that the company that built the planes is known for building snowmobiles

    • by bazorg ( 911295 )

      Nearly like rain or your wedding day.

  • I'd Rather (Score:3, Funny)

    by sexconker ( 1179573 ) on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:53PM (#54657669)

    I'd rather be dead in California than alive in Arizona.

    -Lucille Bluth

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Arizona overall isn't a hot state, it's just Phoenix which happens to reside in a valley. If you actually go south to Tucson, it's generally about 5 degrees cooler, and to the north lies Flagstaff, which this year had the longest duration ever for its popular snow skiing resort being open (from October til May.) It also snows much of the year at Four Peaks, which is about a 1 hour drive from Phoenix.

      You may as well say that California is a hot state because of Death Valley, which is always hotter than Phoen

  • by Strider- ( 39683 ) on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @07:04PM (#54657721)

    This actually isn't all that uncommon around the world, at least to varying degrees.

    Hot air, at high(er) altitudes is less dense, which will affect the performance of an aircraft to various degrees. The usual effect is that reduces the aircraft's MTOW (Maximum Take Off Weight). If it drops below a certain point, it's either uneconomical to fly the plane, or it can't carry enough fuel to do its job.

    Many years ago, Air Canada used to fly to India using Airbus A340s. At certain times of year, it was hot enough in Delhi that they could not take off with sufficient fuel to do DEL->YYZ direct, and instead they would have to make a technical stop in Turkey to refuel the aircraft. This is also one of the reasons why most long-haul international flights fly in and out of Delhi at night. The air is cooler, giving the airliners better performance.

    • I've never been to India, but I've been close. Either way, this is also pretty common in the Middle East and North Africa. I've had flights delayed, had to take off at odd hours, and have been aboard planes where the pilot chickened out and they got like a dozen people to get off. I am kinda sure that I have had a delayed flight in Mexico, for the same reason, as well.

      • I know it was probably meant tongue in cheek, but "chickened out" is a little harsh.

        For those not familiar with aviation, calculating takeoff performance is some fairly simple maths. If the data says you won't take off in the allotted space no amount of hope will help.

        As others have mentioned, some data didn't go above about 50 C (122 F), so whilst a pilot could extrapolate takeoff performance, flying into the unknown probably doesn't make them happy (and is very likely to be illegal). In that case, I'd be

    • by JBMcB ( 73720 )

      Good song.

  • Nothing but June Gloom this year
  • Density altitude (Score:5, Interesting)

    by c ( 8461 ) <beauregardcp@gmail.com> on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @07:14PM (#54657767)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

    Nothing new or myterious. High altitude airports (i.e. Denver) struggle with it all the time. Helicopters, in particular, have to pay close attention to DAlt. A friend told me an entertaining story of spending a week trying to get a chopper to take off from a plateau in Nairobi... combination of a weird pressure change and a heat wave.

    • by Mashiki ( 184564 )

      Well both heat and cold can do some major screw-ups to other mass transport systems. Here in Canada you see cases where in the summer train speeds are either heavily reduced or the trains are stopped from going down the tracks. Usually only happens when the temps hit 30C for more then a couple of days. Rail deforming and causing derailments is a problem, but on top of that the rails are also susceptible to the cold. So if we see a period of -30C several days in a row they also have to slow down.

      Think it

      • by Strider- ( 39683 )

        I once took the train across Canada in winter. We were delayed several times in Manitoba and northern Ontario because they had to wait for crews to come out and weld in new sections of rail because a flat spot on a wheel of the freight in front of us had shattered the rail.

        They actually run a (small) electric current through the rails, and can detect breaks pretty quickly and narrow it down in time to stop the following train.

  • If the issue is really air density then how do CRJ planes take off from Denver? Assuming that this page [analyticcycling.com] has the physics correctly accounted for then the density of air at Phoenix (331m above sea level) at 49C is 1.059 kg/m^3 whereas the air density in Denver (1600m) is only 0.9978 kg/m^3...and that is if you assume the same air pressure - the density in Denver will actually be a lower than this because the pressure is less.

    Perhaps one way to design around this would is to build a longer runway but if tha
    • The reason they might not bother in Phoenix is most of the time, it isn't a problem. Also it isn't a problem for the bigger jets with bigger engines, it seems, just the small ones. Well those are a somewhat new phenomena. 20 years ago if you wanted to do a jet a 737 was about as small as they got. You either used that or went with a prop plane for really short routes.

      The last big expansion to Sky Harbor was in 1989, before those little regional jets were a thing.

    • by blindseer ( 891256 ) <blindseer@noSPAm.earthlink.net> on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @08:04PM (#54658005)

      I have a few guesses as to why they don't have this problem in Denver but they do in Phoenix. One you point out is that Denver likely has longer runways. Why not extend the runways in Phoenix then? Likely because this happens so infrequently that they did not want to go through the expense of extending the runway. I got to talking to an engineer that works on airports. As I recall the runways are dug something like 30 feet into the dirt and filled with concrete. That's a lot of concrete to make up for a few hours of inconvenience every few years. This is not your typical concrete and the surface is engineered for keeping traction in all kinds of weather. Every extra foot of that runway must be very expensive.

      Another possibility is that airports in Phoenix are older and with improvements in optimizing airframes over the years for some norm the margins got slimmer. This means that over time the airplanes needed longer runways but the airport couldn't extend the runway even if they wanted to. Old airports tend to have the city build up around it and pen it in from expanding.

      It could also be that nothing changed physically but the rules under which they operate did. It could be that somewhere in the world an airplane didn't quite make it off the runway in the heat so the FAA decided that the rules on the safety margins had to be changed. It's quite possible every aircraft that wanted to take off could do so, and in the recent past the FAA would have allowed it. But because of a desire to maintain an abundance of caution the FAA grounded those flights.

      I recall someone pointing out that we have not seen a commercial jet crash that resulted in fatalities since 2001. We've seen big planes crash since then but no deaths. We've seen people die in plane crashes but not on a major airline on a regularly scheduled flight. I think the FAA would like to keep it that way as long as possible.

      • I recall someone pointing out that we have not seen a commercial jet crash that resulted in fatalities since 2001. We've seen big planes crash since then but no deaths. We've seen people die in plane crashes but not on a major airline on a regularly scheduled flight. I think the FAA would like to keep it that way as long as possible.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

      • by dryeo ( 100693 ) on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:27PM (#54658701)

        On the radio today, they said this heatwave (7 days of 49C IIRC) is a one in 200 year thing and hasn't happened since last year.

        • On the radio today, they said this heatwave (7 days of 49C IIRC) is a one in 200 year thing and hasn't happened since last year.

          And there probably won't be another summer like this until next year.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      I found a cool source:

      https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/max-operating-temperature-for-airplane.104126/

      According to these guys, there is probably no physical limit that absolutely prevents the CRJ from operating safely above 118 degrees, given runways that are long enough for the gross weight. The problem is that pilots and airlines are not allowed to use the laws of physics, such as the ideal gas law, to calculate the required runway length to takeoff at a given weight and temperature. Ins

    • by dbIII ( 701233 )

      More than Air Density?

      Yes.
      On top of that aircraft engine cooling systems also don't work as well when the ambient temperature is high.

      An extreme example of that was very early QANTAS aircraft (Royal Aircraft Factory B.E.2 - 67kW/90HP) where on hot days they didn't have enough power to make it out of ground effect and had to avoid trees. They were operating in an area as flat as the prairies but drier, so not very many trees.

    • Denver is always high up. Phoenix isn't always so hot.

  • I believe in global warming, got solar panels, hopefully a model 3 someday. The non-stop slashdot stories about global warming is going to cause the end of the world as we know it, is a bit much.
    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      I believe in global warming, got solar panels, hopefully a model 3 someday. The non-stop slashdot stories about global warming is going to cause the end of the world as we know it, is a bit much.

      The problem is not global warming, or at least not the primary one. The problem is it is currently more profitable to lie and pretend it doesn't exist, is a scam from china, isn't our fault anyway, there is nothing we can do, etc, etc.

      The problem is those lies, like so many others work remarkably well quite often, well that and the fact that people care about the near term. Sacrificing, well, anything, for the long term, or the planet, is, well, not particularly American. It is all rather sad.

      If we had c

  • Sort of (Score:4, Informative)

    by Jfetjunky ( 4359471 ) on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @07:51PM (#54657931)
    The article is sort of right. What matters more is density altitude, the effective density based on temperature and air pressure. But that's not to say other aspects of the plane are not rated for that temperature because they would then exceed some internal temperature based on temp rise above ambient.
    • The article was likely cribbed from "Airplanes for Dummies." You lost the target-demographic when you said "density altitude."
    • Yes, they warn you about taking off from high airstrips on warm days. Everything feels OK, except the airspeed is not increasing very fast and the end of the runway looks mighty close...

    • Ah yes, the good old underpowered CRJ, the dog turd of jet airliners when it comes to performance. Look no further for an example of what happens when you knock a one wing off of two business jets and glue them together. Make no mistake, I love the CRJ, but better keep the hops in it short. Anything much above FL200 and you can kiss your climb rate goodbye. Oh and make sure you've got plenty of runway, cause this thing thinks it's a 747 when you look at the takeoff speed table.
  • Used to love watching F105's taking off at Nellis in summer, Booom! Water injected would add X amount pounds of thrust to get the lead sleds moving fast....

  • I can understand flying away from Phoenix. But why would anyone choose to live there or go there in the first place? All they have to offer is HEAT. Excessive amounts. Avoid at all costs.

  • I live in Las Vegas, and we're getting the same high triple-digit temperatures and on top of that most of the Las Vegas valley is at least 2000 feet above sea level vs Phoenix being around 1000 feet. This difference would cause Las Vegas' density altitude to be worse than Phoenix, yet I've heard of no cancelled flights out of Mc Carran airport...

A triangle which has an angle of 135 degrees is called an obscene triangle.

Working...