Nissan Won't Build Its Own Electric Car Batteries Anymore (cnet.com) 132
An anonymous reader shares a report: Balancing every single task by oneself, instead of getting some help, can break a person down in record time. That's likely why Nissan has decided to step away from manufacturing batteries for its electric vehicles. Nissan announced on Tuesday that it would sell its battery-manufacturing subsidiary, Automotive Energy Supply Corporation (AESC), to the Chinese investment firm GSR Capital. "This is a win-win for AESC and Nissan. It enables AESC to utilize GSR's wide networks and proactive investment to expand its customer base and further increase its competitiveness," said Hiroto Saikawa, president and CEO of Nissan, in a statement. "In turn, this will further enhance Nissan's EV competitiveness. AESC will remain a very important partner for Nissan as we deepen our focus on designing and producing market-leading electric vehicles."
this is why Tesla is going to be HUGE quickly (Score:4, Interesting)
OTOH, companies like Nissan, GM, Ford, etc that do NOT build their own plants will not be able to compete against Germans (who are late to the game, but getting there), the Chinese (who will learn how to properly make cars, but at this time, only a fool would buy), and Tesla.
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To some degree, it is also a HUGE risk that Chinese government sponsored industry will undercut prices and take the entire market like they have with steel, solar panels, etc...
The increased trade between Japan and China is a direct result of the abandonment of the TPP and foreshadows the unabated growth of China as America decides to withdraw from trade deals and pick at bellybutton lint instead of competing and controlling world markets.
Re:this is why Tesla is going to be HUGE quickly (Score:4, Informative)
There's no risk with this purchase. Nissan's battery "technology" in the Leaf is terrible. Among the worst in the industry, if not the worst in the industry. It's just passively cooled prismatic cells wired together in a giant "suitcase". The average degradation on them is terrible.
Re:this is why Tesla is going to be HUGE quickly (Score:5, Informative)
Nonsense. I have owned two Leafs, the batteries are great. Very low degradation even under extreme conditions - taxi companies doing multiple rapid charges every day and a 100% charge overnight, for 200,000 miles. They actually removed the "long life mode" 80% charge option from newer models because it was pointless, the 100% charge having no real effect on the battery pack.
They are passively cooled, but that's fine for the Leaf. You only need active cooling if you want to charge at >50kW or for longer periods than a 30kWh pack needs, or if you are drawing more energy than the Leaf does even brodering it. Again, taxi firms running the cars hard, charging them hard, demonstrates this.
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Great for you, but it's a well known problem that many people have experienced [casteyanqui.com]. There's a reason that pretty much everyone else is climate controlling their packs. Tesla degradation isn't anywhere nearly so fast [google.com] (click "charts")
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Many things can seem great while still being the worst in the industry. Just because the Leaf works well for you and a bunch of taxis doesn't mean it works for an even wider audience and doesn't mean that there aren't better options available.
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The battery life of the leaf depends on where you live.
In Denver, the leaf is SO-SO. North of here, the leaf appears to do pretty good. OTOH, down in pueblo Colorado, they constantly burn out early and then go cheap (5K).
The leaf battery, along with the HVAC on it, actually DOES sux.
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What to do with old battery plant when new battery technology comes out that the old battery plant can not produce. We are pulling out of battery manufacture and want to sell our old plant, because of 'cue business psychobabble'. Then, we have had a change of heart because of 'cue business psychobabble' and will build a new battery plant using the new battery technology. That is the problem with battery technology, a jump in efficiency and longevity absolutely slaughters old technology, just puts it right o
Re: this is why Tesla is going to be HUGE quickly (Score:2)
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It is impossible to build a battery with higher energy density.
That seems like a rather implausible claim, or a very narrow definition of "battery".
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Indeed. Lithium is hardly the most energy-dense substance in existence. It has lots of desirable properties, but it's not the be-all end-all.
Actually, sodium-air batteries would be even better. Still much more energy dense than li-ion (although not as much as li-air), but sodium is dirt cheap. Lithium isn't super-expensive, but sodium.... I mean, it's the cation in salt, it's bloody everywhere. And can be reduced to metal for a final price similar to that of aluminum.
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Remember the days when monocultures and monopolies were frowned on around here. Yeah, those were good times. Now we have people who can't scream "TESLA!!!!!1111!!!!" loud enough.
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Because Tesla understands that battery costs are the key to competitive electric cars. The only way to control that is to build them, not outsource manufacturing to a third party hungry for extra margins. Auto companies still manufacture their own engines for this very reason.
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See also: Apple and their A-series CPU+GPU. Anyone want to bet they have A10-whatever Mac prototypes in their labs? They went from 68000 to PowerPC to Intel, another transition doesn't seem far-fetched.
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Tesla aren't even ahead at the moment. They are just very effective at generating hype and buzz.
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Agree; I don't know how much they are putting into fundemental research, but I have to imagine they are restricted in chemistry. This provides significant long-term risk for them.
That said, they are doing the right things by finding multiple markets for the batteries fast which should lower costs, and arguably more importantly an existing model isn't just going to jump onto a new battery overnight, so there is some inherent logic to focusing on improving one chemistry.
If China starts dumping batteries it wi
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Remember the days when monocultures and monopolies were frowned on around here.... Now we have people who can't scream "TESLA!!!!!1111!!!!" loud enough.
Exactly. With Tesla's market share nearing 0.01%, we definitely need to be concerned about their monopoly power.
Re:this is why Tesla is going to be HUGE quickly (Score:5, Insightful)
Annual US car production is under 4 million units [oica.net]. Tesla Model 3 production is scheduled to hit 500k next year. That's what people are investing in Tesla for. Because this is a big, big thing.
And that's just one year. So far Tesla has gotten a nearly 2 year waiting list without any advertising at all, without anyone being able to test drive it (or even know all the specs for most of that time), and with Tesla trying to anti-sell it to try to drive buyers to S and X instead (which they can actually get cash from today, rather than two years in the future). With advertising Tesla expects to raise the 500k to 700k (this will involve moving S and X motor production to gigafactory to free up space at Fremont). A couple years from now they'll also be introducing the Model Y crossover (crossovers being more popular than sedans). They also have a major electric semi truck project in progress, and are developing the Supercharger V3 to support it. After the Y and semi they're discussed a new Roadster, a pickup, and a lower-cost sedan.
Nobody is putting money into Tesla because of their current sales. They're putting money into Tesla because of how much pent-up demand there is for its vehicles - whether you happen to be part of that demand or not. Said investment money is to let them tool to convert demand into sales and thus profits. Talking about figures related to Tesla's current market share are just silly when they're in the middle of building a plant to increase the US's total car production by 28%.
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Probably a bit unfair comparing just US production. Tesla produce all their cars for worldwide distribution in the US. The larger US manufacturers have factories dotted around the world.
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Last time I checked they had at least 2170% of the market. Then again, maybe I'm not using that number correctly...
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And for the same reason slashdot hive mind's hatred of Apple is irrational. They too have vertically integrated products, but there's plenty of competition.
Re: this is why Tesla is going to be HUGE quickly (Score:2)
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You could always use that [amazon.com]. For everything else, there's MasterCard.
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First off, it was the GM EV1; Ford's EV of that era was the Ranger EV. Secondly, almost all of the major manufacturers terminated their leases and brought back their vehicles for destruction. A few models however were saved due to protests from their owners, with the companies changing their minds and allowing the owners to buy them (the Toyota RAV4 EV being the most notable example). GM became so famous for it in that the EV1 was the most beloved of that generation of EVs, and how GM staunchly ignored the
Re:this is why Tesla is going to be HUGE quickly (Score:4, Interesting)
These type of batteries are going to be a low margin commodity.
In the meantime, Tesla is burning through cash for its operations. It just issued bonds that being rated in the low Bs.
It has two more years to get market share and after that, the big boys are coming in at full strength.
Tesla's future is hardly a guaranteed success. But, Tesla's stock doesn't trade on fundamentals: just pie-in-the-sky dreams. Dreams created by Elon's publicist. It's amazing how techies who can be so skeptical and rational throw it all away when it comes to the cult of Musk.
It's exactly how religious people think - hence the use of the word cult.
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re: Tesla and "cult following" (Score:2)
Tesla reminds me a lot of Apple..... Knew exactly how to generate a "buzz" around their products, while actually doing a pretty good job of doing R&D to make cool (but expensive) things people want to own.
Apple users are often accused of being religious zealots too.
The thing is though? The "big boys" of automotive have a big disadvantage. They're heavily invested in internal combustion engines, unlike Tesla. Almost all of them are still trying to manufacture traditional vehicles while simultaneously sw
Re: this is why Tesla is going to be HUGE quickly (Score:2)
Tesla makes one model per production line. The standard for other auto makers is eight. Meaning if one model bombs, the company is just fine if the other seven keep the line busy. Tesla can't even manage two.
Munsk is an amateur when it comes to building physical things ecenomically. Nobody copies him and for good reason.
Re: this is why Tesla is going to be HUGE quickly (Score:2)
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Indeed, it's one of the most modern car production factories on Earth [youtube.com]. Including using some of the largest robots on Earth. All of Tesla's car production is done at the same place, using the same systems. Model S and X share a common platform; 3 and Y will also share a common platform.
Tesla has really pushed the boundaries on automation on car production. They show the robot that installs the seats on the Wired video, and how it has to contort to get the seats into position. The Model 3 allows even more in
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Of course, the normal approach at any good company with good ppl, is do the right thing and ask for forgiveness rather than permission and have to do the wrong thing.
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Interesting that you don't drive an EV.
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Interesting that you don't drive an EV.
I drive an EV, and would not go back to an ICE.
Advantages:
I save time and money by not going to gas stations.
My garage doesn't stink.
The maintenance is much less.
It is fun to drive.
I have nerd-cred.
Disadvantages:
I have to stop for 20 minutes every few hours on long trips.
But this far outweighed by the many many times that I don't have to go to gas stations.
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So so so so so so so much less.
I even had a battery problem that was fixed under warranty, and that was a hassle.. but nowhere near as much a hassle as going to the gas station all the time, getting oil changes on schedule, getting it smogged every 2 years, etc..
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you have to recharge your electric car 4x to 5x more often than a car needs to be filled with gas. Yet somehow you think you're 'saving time'?!
Yes. It charges overnight in my garage, or in my parking space at work, while I go about my life. I don't have to sit and wait while it charges. I just park, plug in, and walk away.
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or in my parking space at work
Where is that? (I can't imagine it being a red state.)
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Where is that?
San Jose, California.
(I can't imagine it being a red state.)
Texas has more charging stations than any other state but California.
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San Jose, California
I'm not surprised.
Texas has more charging stations than any other state but California.
1) A guy as smart as you should know that's a damned meaningless statement: if the state with the third most chargers has 10 charging stations, then your statement would be true by Texas only having 11 charging stations.
2) Texas is becoming blue.
3) Are those charging stations in (far left) Austin and (really rich) northern Dallas suburbs, or out in hot, dusty Lubbock?
Re: Electric cars going the way of 3D TV and RoR (Score:2)
we have a Tesla that we charge overnight on a simple 120V since my wife only goes about 60 miles
when we take long trips we use the Tesla SCs, which make life easy.
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There appear to be only 20 SCs in Texas, including one in all of Houston, and one on the 240 mile drive from Houston to Dallas. As soon as you finish the drive, your first thought will be to hunt for a charging station.
And there are zero in vast swaths of the state.
In my state, there are six, the closest being 40 miles away. It'll be decades before there's an EV station in the where sisters live (at least 10 miles from the nearest small town).
And RV parks... is that electricity usage unmetered? (I bet it
Re: Electric cars going the way of 3D TV and RoR (Score:2)
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IOW, u charge at your original and then end point using much lower current and price electricity.
And you blindly ignored my point that many people drive long distances where they can't stop overnight to charge, and there's no SC around. For example, tag-team driving across southern Texas to southern AZ.
Not to mention that heat and cold negatively impact battery performance.
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Still, this is no different than when I was a kid and in the 70s, esp on Sundays, we had to consider where gas stations where to drive from Illinois to Mich, or Illinois to California. Yet, by mid 80s, it was a none issue.
Same way with EVs, and no doubt Tesla will be the first. What is interesting is that their next SC that should be coming out now, will allow for 5-10 minute charges.
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Eventually charging stations will get as ubiquitous as gas stations.
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Let me get this straight. When you need to stop for gas - say, when you realize "Oh, I need to stop for gas on the way home", you get home only two minutes (20 / 2) later than you otherwise would? Yeah, sure.
EV drivers in their normal everyday lives never stop and think "Oh, I need to stop for gas on the way home" because they start every day with a full tank. The time to connect your vehicle at home is basically insignificant (not that you have to charge every day if for some reason you don't want to).
I
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I don't want to since I can charge at work.. but even then, I only do it a couple of times a week at most (when I need to), and I have one of the lowest range cars.
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A Model 3 has a range from 220 to 310 miles
A Model 3 doesn't have the range for a long weekend at the quaint rural B&B two hours away (plus driving to all the little shops your wife wants to visit in the "nearby" town).
a dirty gas station and breathe carcinogenic (literally) fumes while standing outside fueling your vehicle
Not in the US in the (at least) past 15 years.
regardless of the weather.
In some very small town gas stations (where you wouldn't find an EV charging station anyway), but certainly not at 98% of gas stations in the US in the past 30 years.
There's no point to 400+ miles range otherwise; it's not safe to drive for such long periods
Fine: you find a Motel 6 off the Interstate and check in for the night. Good luck charging your EV over night.
Same with
Re: Electric cars going the way of 3D TV and RoR (Score:2)
And probably about 1/4 to 1/3 of hotels in America offer an EV charger that is either free or you pay a couple of bucks for.
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At the national average of 14.2 cents/kWh, a 50kw charge (the "tank" is usually pretty empty after a long trip) is $7.10.
Not a lot, but it adds up, and is more than your estimate.
(Fans always underestimate costs and overestimate availability.)
Re: Electric cars going the way of 3D TV and RoR (Score:2)
In addition, we stop at c.springs and charge for free at Tesla SC site. So it is typically 40-50 kwh that we add at
Sadly, astroturfers always way overestimate.
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Dueling government statistics!
At the bottom of https://www.bls.gov/regions/west/news-release/averageenergyprices_losangeles.htm [bls.gov]
Table 1. Average prices for gasoline, electricity, and utility (piped) gas, Los Angeles-Riverside-Orange County and the United States, June 2016-June 2017, not seasonally adjusted
In June 2017, the "Electricity per kWh" cost for "United States" was $0.142.
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Where are you getting that from? (also helpful: name the B&B and starting location)
How did gasoline manage to become non-carcinogenic (and neurotoxic, and a whole range [cdc.gov] of other toxicity effects) in the past 15 years?
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How did gasoline manage to become non-carcinogenic (and neurotoxic, and a whole range of other toxicity effects) in the past 15 years?
Little rubber collars on pump nozzles kept the gas in. Five years ago the rule mandating them was eliminated, because most cars have built-in fume traps. url:http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/10/politics/epa-gas-pump-handles/index.html> It was 70% back then, and I bet it's higher now.
Weather has ceased to exist in the US except in small towns? Or are you saying that US pumps connect themselves to your car on their own like a snake, as well as paying for you with EZ-pass?
Are there no awnings over the gas pumps [wikimedia.org] in NY/NJ/PA (or wherever you are that E-ZPass is used)?
EV charging is now very common at hotels. And even if a place doesn't officially offer it, 9 times out of 10, if you call and ask, you get a "yes".
Interesting. I looked at one (https://www.plugshare.com/?location=63496#) and you've got to pay $20. That's a decent price for a ta
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You know those drips of gasoline when you pull the hose out? Drips on your fueling port, on the ground, on the pump? What do you think happens to them?
Yes, they vaporize. Fume traps on modern cars do not make gas stations vapour
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you stop on the way there or back, just like you do with gas stations. It's really not a tricky concept.
And when that one SC station happens to be in the opposite direction from where I want to go...? Or it's a long drive and tacking another 30 minutes, and tacking on another 30 minutes is a non-starter?
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The vehicle has a 220-310 mile range. Wait for one that's en route. They're not that far apart.
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You need to look at the Texas SC map. It's 306 miles from Dallas to Shamrock. Do you really want to cut things that close? And there are zero SC stations in southern NM.
But, you say, people have to stop and eat, and it's dangerous to drive that long without stopping for rest.
To that I day... team driving. My family and I do that quite often: pack water and supposedly healthy snacks, hop on the Interstate and hit the gas. Every 3-4 hours stop 10 minutes for bathroom, gasoline, and to switch drivers.
You
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Okay, finally we have some data - you're going from Dallas to Shamrock (and I presume NM also?). Where in Dallas? If you're starting on the south side or in town, stop at the Arlington supercharger; from the north, the Denton supercharger. There are four more opening up in Dallas this year . Even if you tried you couldn't get an M3 before they opened; the waiting list is two years long (there will be 2018 superchargers (not on the map) opening before someone who placed an order today got their car). Same s
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Where in Dallas? If you're starting on the south side or in town, stop at the Arlington supercharger; from the north, the Denton supercharger.
But you're supposed to charge up all night at home, so why in the world would you drive the short distance from home to the SC station and then juice up again? That makes no sense.
There needs to be a SC station between Dallas and Shamrock.
As for southern NM, I don't know what you're talking about.
I googled "Tesla supercharger new mexico" and saw none in the entire southern half of the state. A similar search for Texas doesn't show one in El Paso.
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You're the one who imposed the "no supercharging at the person's house" requirement (which doesn't match reality, FYI). I'm just meeting your impositions.
On the way. Hence Arlington if you're coming from the south and Denton if you're coming from the north.
By the time anyone in Texas gets a M3,
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In case you're curious, it's rare that most supercharger stations not in big cities will ever need 4 chargers at this point in time, with the number of EVs on the road. It's one of the things that to me continually demonstrates how Tesla understands the market while others' don't. If you just build a single charger somewhere, and someone gets there, and it's taken or broken.... then what? Bad luck, right? But Tesla makes sure that there's always multiple chargers at every site (constantly monitored), on d
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You're the one who imposed the "no supercharging at the person's house" requirement
I think one of us changed subjects along the way, and the other didn't see that.
Otherwise, this was a helpful post.
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Interesting that you don't drive an EV.
I don't drive an EV because I don't have a car. But if/when my life situation changes such that I need a car, it will be electric.
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Unless you move to where charging stations aren't as ubiquitous as in San Jose.
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Unless you move to where charging stations aren't as ubiquitous as in San Jose.
I don't live in San Jose, I live in Canada. And they're not ubiquitous here (except Ontario and Quebec). But I would still get an electric, because most charging is done at home and what is available for charging infrastructure is enough for those times I would need it.
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and what is available for charging infrastructure is enough for those times I would need it.
I'm as dubious of that as I am of there ever being a Year of the Linux Desktop.
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and what is available for charging infrastructure is enough for those times I would need it.
I'm as dubious of that as I am of there ever being a Year of the Linux Desktop.
So you know my own city better than me? Why in the world would I lie about what I need? Why in the world would I buy an electric car if it didn't suit my needs? I get it, you don't think they work for you. But that doesn't mean they don't work for everyone.
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I'm dubious that you can foresee more than your immediate needs. Unexpected life-altering events happen regularly to young people.
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I'm dubious that you can foresee more than your immediate needs. Unexpected life-altering events happen regularly to young people.
Are you actually serious? Could you actually be more arrogant? I'm not young. Even if I was, I (or anyone else) don't need your paternalistic advice.
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I'm not giving you advice; I'm expressing my opinion.
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Re:Electric cars going the way of 3D TV and RoR (Score:4, Informative)
Also worth noting that Tesla has the highest owner satisfaction rating [consumerreports.org] in the industry, with 91% saying would buy again (the next closest being Porsche at 84%)
Tesla only makes electric cars. So, read into that what you will.
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Pretty much. Current Tesla owners are surprisingly willing to put up with problems like having to return their cars for repair multiple times. It's not clear that the general public will be quite so kind to them.
Re: Electric cars going the way of 3D TV and RoR (Score:2)
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My wife has a LEAF and a short enough commute to work and activities that the car works for her. I have a Volt that I primarily drive in EV mode. We both have Level 2 chargers at home and at work; but the LEAF has a 6.6kW charger, and can accept Level 3 CHAdeMo fast charging. So the double-sized LEAF battery can completely charge in the same time (or less) as the Volt. I know of a city dweller who has a Volt, and they charge it when they go grocery shopping.
So personal circumstances do matter.
The issues you
Re: Seriously? (Score:2)
Re: this is why Tesla is going to be HUGE quickly (Score:2)
Offshoring to China (Score:2)
Nissan's battery factories are in Japan; Zama and Sagamihara Kanagawa. They'll be shutting those for GSR's Chinese factories.
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That is kind of a mid-20th century view of China and it is woefully inaccurate.
China's growth has fueled a rapidly growing middle-class that wants consumer goods, particularly American goods (i.e. they LOVE Buick cars for some reason)
I would suggest some Mandarin language classes if you are really concerned. You may even get a western-guys-in-ties job although those are probably on the down-growth side right now.
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Grossly false analogy. (Score:2)
Balancing every single task by oneself, instead of getting some help, can break a person down in record time.
Nissan is a large company, with lots of people.
This is either selling assets to pay down debt, or upper management thinking that they can't be competitive as battery manufacturers.
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probably helps them dodge environmental laws.
Which drive up prices.
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How will Nissan survive both ENGINEERING and MARKETING their cars?!
Those are two different skills!
Adios Nissan (Score:2, Insightful)
There are pros and cons to outsourcing. But if there's one thing that's asymptotic to pure truth, it's never ever outsource your core competency.
In the case of EVs, your core competencies are Battery Design and EV Drivetrain.
Outsourcing half your core competency right as the market starts to pick up and get competitive sure seems like surefire way to be left behind.
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In the case of EVs, your core competencies are Battery Design and EV Drivetrain.
Not necessarily. Nissan's core competency is designing and building cars: regulatory compliance, supply chain management, marketing, etc. In fact, they likely have very little (comparatively) competency in battery and EV drivetrain design and production.
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There is still lots of room to be a good coach builder that drops a car on top of a mostly 3rd party chassis/battery/power train.
Plenty of auto maker do this to in the ICE powered space. The thing it it usually moves you off into the boutique market space. The majors don't do it that way because there are big advantages in integrated manufacturing.
You get some design flexibility because you don't have to work round the constraints of someone else's chassis/equipment
You avoid a lot of overhead, much cheap
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Arguably the opposite could be true: auto manufacturers today are primarily about service and marketing; slapping a cabin on a slightly value-added chassis makes sense for their model.
I could also see highly mass-marketed "skateboards" becoming the foundation (heh) of the auto industry-- it lends itself to more customization and is consistent with today's "platform" model.
Soon Nissan will outsource the whole car. (Score:2)
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The problem with the Leaf is that it looks like it was made ugly on purpose.
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It's more accurate to say that the battery pack has no active thermal management and is fairly poor in capacity to begin with compared to what's now available.
Nissan was not able to evolve their battery fast enough to keep pace with the technology and ended up taking it in the neck.
=Smidge=
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The main problem was range - 75 miles doesn't cut it for the early models. 107 is getting there. It needs to be 150+.
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They have a new model being launched next month. That will undoubtedly be 150+. But they need 200+ now.
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And Hyundai is already suffering from lack of batteries from LG Chem. Their Ioniq has been far more popular than they predicted. They could raise production to deal with that, except that they haven't pre-ordered enough batteries from LG Chem, and LG Chem has other bigger customers, so won't/can't increase production for Hyundai.
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And that's its range when new. Leaf battery degradation is commonly severe, since it's passively cooled.
Re: Exploding electric cars (Score:2)