Mazda Announces Breakthrough In Long-Coveted Engine Technology (reuters.com) 271
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Reuters: Mazda Motor Corp said it would become the world's first automaker to commercialize a much more efficient petrol engine using technology that deep-pocketed rivals have been trying to engineer for decades, a twist in an industry increasingly going electric. The new compression ignition engine is 20 percent to 30 percent more fuel efficient than the Japanese automaker's current engines and uses a technology that has eluded the likes of Daimler AG and General Motors Co. Mazda, with a research and development (R&D) budget a fraction of those of major peers, said it plans to sell cars with the new engine from 2019. A homogeneous charge compression ignition (HCCI) engine ignites petrol through compression, eliminating spark plugs. Its fuel economy potentially matches that of a diesel engine without high emissions of nitrogen oxides or sooty particulates. Mazda's engine employs spark plugs under certain conditions, such as at low temperatures, to overcome technical hurdles that have hampered commercialization of the technology.
Link to the actual article (Score:5, Funny)
It appears that the editor *actually read* the article, causing Reuters to scroll to the next story and change the URL. Will wonders never cease.
Worst trend in webdesign (Score:5, Interesting)
The never-ending single page is the worst trend in webdesign today, or perhaps ever. I was trying to reach the footer of some website the other day to get to info like "about", "contact us", or whatever, and it was absolutely impossible.
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For what it's worth, if you have a Thingiverse account you can turn infinite scrolling off in the preferences. Unfortunately they only show 12 entries per page so it takes forever to go through them all, but at least there's no infinite scroll involved.
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The never-ending single page is the worst trend in webdesign today, or perhaps ever. I was trying to reach the footer of some website the other day to get to info like "about", "contact us", or whatever, and it was absolutely impossible.
I'm guessing the "End" key on your keyboard was broken?
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That just triggers the infinite page refresh to continue on, dragging the link (f it exists) back to the bottom, where you can't click on it.
Whomever figured out one could do that (or whomever implemented the capabilities to do so) should be shot.
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Still better than /. beta was, but 'shootin''s too good for them...'
Confession...i once showed a dev how to 'automate' and 'reuse' his Access application from VB classic. 'new Access.Application'....I'll go to hell for it, I deserve it. My cats will eat my liver, every day.
IC engine efficiency is hardly 20% (Score:3)
Now that we know how difficult it is to cut the emissions on diesel engines during start up and some driving conditions, it is probably a good thing. But it is not going to slow the long march towards hybrid and electric cars. It is more along the lines of streamlining steam locomotives.
Re:IC engine efficiency is hardly 20% (Score:5, Interesting)
The issue is that the NOx pollution from the Diesels is due to its thermal efficiency. In a properly running diesel, the flame in the cylinder is so hot that it causes the N2 from the atmosphere to momentarily disassociate, which in turn combines with the left over oxygen, producing oxides of nitrogen. By definition, diesels run extremely lean, so there's plenty of oxygen for this to happen, and 80% of the charge is nitrogen. Anyhow, the net result is that diesels tend to produce the most NOx at the most efficient point, which is right around their torque curve.
Gasoline engines, on the other hand, ideally operate at the stochiometric ratio; the oxygen in the charge air is completely consumed by the combustion. It sounds like Mazda has achieved diesel-like efficiency while maintaining the gasoline ratios, meaning that there is no left over oxygen to produce NOx. It'll be interesting to see if it works out and is reliable.
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ALL internal combustion engines produce NOx, sparky. Diesel exhaust is just more difficult and expensive to aftertreat to remove the last vestiges.
Re:IC engine efficiency is hardly 20% (Score:5, Informative)
Gasoline engines don't run ideally. They run rich-lean-rich-lean. Then the catalyst averages it out, more or less.
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I'd be surprised if that were true. Running rich would soon ruin the catalytic converter.
Well, prepared to be surprised with knowledge, the same knowledge you could have got from Wikipedia but which I knew before they even taught me in school in the prep class for the ASE A-6 because I care about how vehicles work. It's called "closed loop" operation, and it's how gasoline vehicles have worked since they got O2 sensors and electronic mixture control, which predates ubiquitous fuel injection substantially. In short, a reading is taken from the O2 sensor, and the mixture is adjusted... over and o
HCCI engine torque and other benefits (Score:2)
The much "coveted" technology, if it works, would bring diesel engine efficiency to gasoline engines. That is all.
Mazda's presentation also had an example output curve for their SkyActiv-X engine, apparently it also produces diesel-like torque as well. It also does quite well with low-octane gasoline, as octane rating is irrelevant to a compression-ignition engine.
Convenience of electric - except in winter (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Convenience of electric - except in winter (Score:4, Insightful)
This is wishful thinking. It may be true in very dense urban centers, but it is less and less likely to be true anytime soon out in suburbia, and even less likely in rural areas where farms operate and grow food that everyone in the urban centers is dependent on.
Personally I'd love to see a day when I can have a fully-electric, battery-operated tractor, combine, or semi truck that can operate at high power output ranges for 12 hours or more at a stretch (and recharge very quickly). But realistically I don't expect to see this in my lifetime.
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Tesla is working on a semi truck right now. It is going to be announced before the end of the year.
https://electrek.co/2017/05/25... [electrek.co]
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This is wishful thinking. It may be true in very dense urban centers, but it is less and less likely to be true anytime soon out in suburbia, and even less likely in rural areas where farms operate and grow food that everyone in the urban centers is dependent on.
This,
Its just people who have no knowledge of the engineering jumping on the Tesla hype bandwagon.
The problem Tesla has is that it's using the same battery technology as a laptop and as anyone who has half a brain and uses a laptop on battery regularly will have noticed is that battery power degrades with each charge cycle. It's not noticable over a few... but try doing 300. Batteries are consumable, up until now when the battery pack in your Prius goes, you've still got the gasoline engine to cover y
Re:Convenience of electric - except in winter (Score:4)
Commercial vehicles like trucks and tractors don't need to operate for 12 hours at a stretch. Even the current EU laws don't allow humans to drive them continuously for that long without a break, and they will be some of the first vehicles to get fully antonymous driving (and charging) anyway.
300 miles range at 70 MPH is already available and already more than enough for human beings. If you are driving for more than 4 hours straight without a break, you are not driving safely.
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Once their range is close enough to gas no one will want to buy a new fossil fuel car.
Well, that all depends.
Right now, I get a bit over 300 miles with my car. Very expensive electric cars can come pretty close.
So, in a couple of years, my choice is between a $35,000 electric car that gets 300 miles on a charge or a $35,000 Mazda which gets 50 MPG and, therefore, gets over 500 miles on a tank of gasoline.
Re:Convenience of electric - except in winter (Score:5, Informative)
AC is better for keeping windows mist free than heat. My Leaf has a heat pump and AC system, so I normally blast both for maybe 20 seconds to fully de-mist the car when setting off (often automatically on a timer while it's still plugged in, so doesn't even touch the battery) and then just keep heat and AC on the minimum setting to maintain.
It ends up reducing range by 5-10%, depending on conditions and driving style.
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I don't know... AC clear it in a few seconds, electrically heated windows take much longer. I don't really want to wait ages for the windscreen to clear.
I imagine the AC is more efficient than resistive heating too.
Wankel Engine making another show? (Score:2)
Only a RX7 fan would go this route.
Mazda new wankel engine patent (Mar 16)
http://pdfaiw.uspto.gov/.aiw?P... [uspto.gov]
Story on patent
http://blog.caranddriver.com/n... [caranddriver.com]
Animation of Wankel engine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Does this mean (Score:2)
I get to have a jake brake on my car?!?! :(
Maybe I just don't understand engines well enough
Mazda is awesome (Score:2)
1, Wankel Rotary
2. Miller cycle
3. Compression
How good a hybrid charging engine could this be? (Score:2)
Imagine a single drive train hybrid using this tech as the charging engine, running only at its most efficient speed. This could be the low-cost transition to electric that the industry has been waiting for.
Re:I wanted to RFTA (Score:5, Informative)
Or use the link in the title of the article
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What is missing in the story is the likely use of those new fangled infernal combustion engines. They sound pretty fussy and as such likely they will run best at set revolutions with a set load, so as the power supply for generators in hybrid vehicles. Probably what made those engines really difficult to develop, is they were fussy with regard to efficiency at different revolutions under different loads, becoming real inefficient outside of a specific range, but with fixed revolution and load, powering gene
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Scroll down the page, and it's there.
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While I agree that burning fermented dino and fish carcasses is not a good idea, many people will still want or need such a motor.
And for people that have small minds and hands that don't believe in the coming climactic upheaval, they will cause less damage while still clinging to old tech.
Re:Too little, too late (Score:5, Insightful)
> Fossil fuel vehicles are phased out in three years worldwide, no matter where you go
What do you mean by phased out? How much do you want to bet that fossil fuel vehicles will not only still be produced, but used more than electric in 3 years worldwide? I will be happy to escrow a few thousand dollars on my prediction (that's all I can spare and I will use the winnings for financing an electric vehicle). We can use active US car registrations as a measure, if you really want to go forward.
How many US families (from a very wealthy nation) do you think have the economic capacity to buy new electric vehicles, much less 2 year depreciated ones? How many of those will there be? Where's the infrastructure to power these vehicles? I know where many electric stations are from San Diego, CA to the Oregon border but you drive right by a Tesla facility who made that happen. In the rest of the northwest US, not so much. India? Hah.
I don't think your statement is well considered. Perhaps you have a skewed idea of what humans will tolerate to maintain an illusion of normalcy (spoiler: almost anything short-term to avoid committing to change).
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I think they typoed "thirty"; there's a lot of places reported lately who are looking to ban sales of new fossil-fuel vehicles in that timeframe (after which the population of such vehicles will attrit over time until someone gets fed up and just bans them outright).
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TY for pointing that out. Makes a lot more sense.
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Until the refiners see that there is a major glut of product available, and they start turning that oil into something else besides gasoline
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I am guessing you don't know how oil is sold, do you? Supplies are quite often bought years and years in advance at a pre-negotiated and fixed price over those years. That glut already exists - it's been pumped out to meet their contractual obligations for the future.
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Are you seriously trying to inject market theory into a discussion on slashdot? The only acceptable use of market theory on slashdot is when a "progressive" (meaning socialist/communist) is attempting to explain how the proper application of false pressures will aid in manipulating prices. If a freedom loving person uses it to explain why something just works, then all hell normally breaks loose trying to point out why capitalism is dead and market theory is just so much hocus pocus.
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shhhhhhhh you're disturbing the echo-chamber.
Re:Too little, too late (Score:5, Insightful)
"Fossil fuel vehicles are phased out in three years worldwide,"
Um, no. The used car market makes that unlikely.
And when my 80 mile a day commute doesn't require fast charging at work to make it home with a 5-10% margin, most likely impacted by unpredictable traffic, I'm in. Or, do the other, mch harder thing - make my work, job stability, and income possible closer to home. I'll fix the 'problem' with more efficient cars over the next 10-12 ears, then 'retire'. Maybe.
Or, alternatively, start using honest, accurate data to judge climate change and influences. Go where the honest data leads you.
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Even if your commute is 80 miles each way (160 miles RT), the Chevy Bolt or the Tesla Model (any) will give you at least a 30% margin in real-world traffic.
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Then you don't buy an electric car that only has a range of 160miles.
Wow, that was so simple again.
Sorry, that I had to put it so bluntly at you.
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I have a friend who puts around 36,000 miles per year on his car because of work. He regularly drives 300 miles a day visiting various customers to keep them happy. The notion that he should pull up to a customer and have them put fuel in his car so he can drive down the road to their competitor is somewhat ludicrous.
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OTR Sales people, LargeCorp(TM) Regional Managers, etc. These folks usually drive cars out of warranty within 12 months or less.
Re: Too little, too late (Score:2)
To customers sites to repair and replace equipment. 500 miles a day is a frequent occurrence and I have done 1,000 miles in 24 hours a couple times.
My work pickup, a 2010 Toyota, had 200 miles on it when we got it. It now has 345,000 and change.
for long trips crunch the numbers on gas/electric (Score:2)
Depending on how frequently you need to make long trips it may make sense to buy a gas car. It may also make sense to buy an electric car for local trips and rent a gas car for longer trips.
The tradeoff between the two depends on the relative prices of the cars and their "fuel", as well as how frequently you make long trips.
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Nobody is moving goalposts with that -20 below. That is the norm in a northern Midwest winter for about a month.
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Bicycles are great (Score:2)
Bicycles are great. Traffic is so shitty where I live though I stopped riding mine.
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Bicycles are great.
And, as Steven Wright said, "Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time."
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All those floods, storms, heat waves, and other events are being caused by humans, using fossil fuels
The contribution of modern personal vehicles to global warming, while not tiny, is a lot smaller than you might think. Cleaner cars and better fuel economy are great, but if you want to save the planet, don't get too hung up about cars. There are much bigger fish out there to fry.
Re:Too little, too late (Score:5, Informative)
Not in the West.
If you live in the West, 40 percent of your contribution to climate change is from transportation.
Which is one of the reasons why we lead in electric and hybrid purchases.
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I thought we lead in Subaru purchases.
Re:Too little, too late (Score:4, Insightful)
Cars are a popular "environmental" target here because of the common misconception about these figures; it makes the seriously high taxes on them easy to sell as both the left and the right still feel guilty about driving.
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I think you meant 30. In that timeframe, I am not confident that the world will be able to avoid change.
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Generators still exist.
Petrol engines are in everyday tools.
Ships and boats still run on diesel or petrol, and it might not be sensible to have a water-soaked battery.
Hospitals and datacentres have backup generators
There is more of a market for engines than just cars. The tech is transferable. And while diesel is polluting worse than we thought, a new type of petrol engine isn't exactly a dead loss.
And you still have 10 years before anyone ditches the cars that are in the vast, vast, vast majority now. T
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Ships and boats still run on diesel or petrol, and it might not be sensible to have a water-soaked battery.
Well, actually it's more about energy density. I'm thinking, I would like my next boat motor to be petrol/electric. At this point, the main obstacles would just be getting the necessary engineering talent on the problem for this specialty industry.
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Or you know, there is this ancient art known as "Sailing." Modern sailing vessels tend to be extremely efficient machines at moving from point A to point B, whether under sail or under motor. I just came back from spending 5 days on a 35,000 lb 48' sailboat. My friend and I were able to handle her by ourselves, even in gale conditions. When we were becalmed, we fired up the engine and burned about 1gph, moving at 7 knots. When the wind came back up to about 12 knots, we were able to get back up to hull spee
hydrofoil sailboats (Score:2)
The current Americas Cup boats are dual-hull hydrofoil boats with semi-rigid sails. Depending on what direction they're travelling relative to the wind they can reach speeds of 3-4x the wind speed.
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And how much cargo are they moving in those America's Cup races and on that 48 footer? Consider for a moment that Panamax can have a displacement almost 6,000 times that little 48-footer and tell me how big the sails are going to be get a Panamax moving at 12-14 knots which is the current target. Modern cargo ships are generally capable of 25 kt. Also, bear in mind that Panamax are considered medium sized container vessels.
We won't even discuss the Mississippi and Ohio River barge traffic and how wide those
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Yes, but they're still diesel engines. In theory, Diesel engines will burn pretty much anything flammable. Diesel himself originally tried to run his design on coal dust, before switching to peanut oil.
Diesel fuel as you buy it for road vehicles is basically No 2 fuel oil, which is pretty similar to heating oil and Jet-A/JP-5. There are subtle differences in the exact makeup, mostly related to lubricity (small diesels depend on the fuel to cool/lubricate the fuel pumps), and a few other specific properties.
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The US fleet is replaced at ~5% per year. So even if all new vehicles in 2020 are full electric, it would still be over 2 decades to "phase out" petro consumer road vehicles.
That said, I'm rebuilding my turbo diesel with the intent to get another 5+ years out of it (should be cracking 300,000 miles by then) with the hope that an affordable full electric with sufficient range capacity in the winters of Wisconsin is available. :)
-Rick
In other news (Score:2)
Dateline Alabama, August 2017:
This reporter is delighted to deliver the scoop that finally, buggy whips will now be available with carbon fiber handles and artificial spider-silk lashes. Order early to be sure to get yours in time for school!
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Buy an RV and don't look back.
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Stop for lunch on the way?
I'm failing to see the problem.
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Stop for lunch on the way?
I'm failing to see the problem.
The stopping is the problem.
It takes less than 8 hours to go 500 miles in most of the country. 7 hours with the way most people drive.
I'd rather keep driving and just have some jerky or other snacks while in the car. Even stopping for gas (or an imaginary battery swap) is an annoying time sink. When I'm on a drive that long my first priority is minimizing the overall duration of the trip.
Re:Too little, too late (Score:4, Informative)
And people like you are the reason for the high rate of freeway accidents.
News flash: You're Not Supposed To Drive For 8 Hours Straight. You're supposed to take breaks every few hours. Stop endangering other drivers because you don't want to waste 15 minutes here and there to get out and stretch.
This post is independent of what you think of EVs. I don't care what sort of car you drive, but stop putting other people at risk because you're in a rush.
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The wife and I have done Berkeley to Portland, about 600 miles, in 7.5 hours several times. Just pack sandwiches and a thermos of coffee and combine gas stops with bathroom breaks. Yeah, it's a long day but it can be done
Re:Too little, too late (Score:5, Insightful)
90 minutes? What year is this, 2005? Supercharging is half an hour to 80%. And herp, derp, humans have to eat at some point.
And I love how much you're willing to damn an EV for even the slightest increase in long-distance trip time (most people taking 500 mile trips rather rarely), but are perfectly content to need to at random intervals in your normal everyday life have to divert from your schedule and go out of your way to a gas station, stand outside in whatever weather there is and pump gasoline (which gives off carcinogenic fumes) in a "shithole". And FYI, gas stations are much more likely to be "shitholes" than superchargers. Here's a random list [google.com] of supercharger photo pictures (flickr, so it should be by and large just random people's snapshots). How much of a "shithole" do they look like to you?
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As much as I dislike the catastrophic environmental damage EV production causes even *I* have to admit driving more than 150 miles at a time is a major pain in the ass without a significant break.
There's rest areas every 40 miles where people are *supposed* to get out and rest. Forcing the issue by limiting the range would result in major improvements in safety by having less fatigued drivers on the road, and an overall speed reduction because of the reduced speed and cargo capacity of electric vehicles ( w
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Out of curiosity, what do you mean?
Here's [google.com] what production from a lithium salar looks like. Pump brine up from underneath, dry on the surface in controlled conditions to concentrate the salts of interest, send for further refining. Most of the salars flood annually and reclaim the (salt) drying ponds, meaning you have to rebuild them annually.
Do you mean energy? I'll refer you to this study [rsc.org], and in particular, graph 5a [rsc.org]. Blue +
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In case you're curious, there's about 20kg of cobalt in a typical Tesla vehicle, along with a dozen or so kilograms of lithium. A lot less than you'd probably expect.
Charge points are relatively simple installs (Score:3)
"I stop to eat at roadside inns which are likely never to have charging points,"
It's much easier for a business to put in a charging point connected to their existing electric lines than to install a gas pump and underground gas tanks. So why would a roadside inn not install charge points to increase (or maintain) business?
With EVs, any roadside business can now be a gas station -- but without dealing with the costs or regulations.
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This is something I never considered. Thanks!
Interesting that if you're one of two B&Bs in a town, the supercharger investment might be a business draw, and potentially something you could write off on your taxes. I can see this mentality adding to a rapid increase in deployment once a certain threshold of electric cars are on the road. It might not make sense this year, but within a few years, it might well be another way to entice customers, like free wifi is now.
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It really was not, and it would benefit you to read about the early history of the automobile before discussing it.
At the turn of the century there were 27000 miles of roads in the US. Almost virtually all unpaved. Ever wonder why early "horseless carriages" had those giant wagon wheels? It was to try to stop them from bogging down. Guess what? They still bogged down almost all the time. Early gas "stations"
rent a gas/diesel vehicle for long trips (Score:2)
Seriously, if you drive mostly shorter trips and have occasional need for a long-range vehicle, it may very well make more sense to rent it than drive it all the time.
Personally I drive a smallish car and own an a covered cargo trailer. The odd time that I need a minivan or pickup truck I rent one.
Re: Too little, too late (Score:2)
Was this a Rick and Morty reference lol
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Kind of racist to claim that blacks (the majority of New Orleans residents) can't swim. Or is promoting racial stereotypes no longer considered racist. The rules change often enough that it is not really worth keeping up.
Oh please (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah, actually the absolute pollution levels for these are quite far apart, and getting further apart every day. That's without even counting systems specifically designed to supply short-ride vehicles locally via solar. The efficiency of power production for vehicle charging at a fossil-fuel power plant, even after transmission losses to the charging point, is far better than an ICE can do on a per-vehicle basis. But don't let the facts stop you from spreading your fud. It seems to be the new normal anyway.
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Sounds similar to diesel, and I'd wondered for a long if or when anyone would ever use compression ignition with gasoline. This is fantastic news.
Mazda's experience with rotary/Wankel engines might have something to do with this.
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Well... sort of. At least in general HCCI engines - while having gasoline-like low PM and NOx - tend to have problems with VOCs and CO.
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Hydrogen is far less volatile than gasoline. People have a fear of Hydrogen but it has a low energy density and dissipates very rapidly by floating away. Gasoline vapor is explosive with a very high energy content and the liquid itself adheres to surfaces easily and will burn on the surface of water. The biggest issue with using hydrogen as a fuel is simply that it takes too much energy to make a decent quantity of it. It sticks to everything and you have to input energy to unstick it.
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They make it work by being dual-mode. It only switches to compression ignition when it determines the appropriate conditions. A fair bit of the time, it'll be on standard spark ignition. Basically, they manage to control the intake and exhaust flow at a higher compression ratio that they can predict predet and control it.
The bigger problem I would expect, is getting it to pass emissions. I would guess that it'll do great on CO2, but it'll blow NOX worse than a Diesel.
At which point, your sentiment rings tru
Re:I'll Be Amazed (Score:5, Informative)
The bigger problem I would expect, is getting it to pass emissions. I would guess that it'll do great on CO2, but it'll blow NOX worse than a Diesel.
If they get their fuel/air mix right, there won't be a NOx issue as there won't be enough left over oxygen to produce NOx in significant quantities. Modern diesels produce it due to the high flame temperatures, and because by definition they run extremely lean. If they're running it like a gasoline engine, where the goal is to completely consume the oxygen in the charge air, then the NOx issues should be relatively well controlled.
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However (and I have worked on fuel injection systems) if they do not run it lean, they will be running inefficient.
Pretty much all of these engineers run lean, it helps efficiency a lot.
There is pretty much no way around the efficiency/NOx tradeoff.
Claiming this should have low NOx is simply not possible, more likely they are running a diesel style post infection system.
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Petrol is simply too volatile a fuel to control this with.
Not in liquid form. Hell, I know old mechanics who use cans of gasoline to put out cigarettes.
Re: I'll Be Amazed (Score:2)
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I still use my MiniDisc, you intolerant clod!
Re:A better buggy whip? (Score:5, Funny)
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Nah. Gasoline cars will not stop selling before 2019, and until they do, increasing efficiency for gas vehicles and reducing NO emissions from traditionally diesel form factors are both worthwhile enhancements. So if they're on schedule, this could be a big win for Mazda in terms of carving out a good chunk of the (assumed to be) tail years of the fossil fuel vehicle.
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isn't pouring lots of resources into a 30% more efficient petrol engine in 2017 somewhat akin to inventing 'a better buggy whip' in 1888
Not entirely.
There are some heavy-use cases where electric will not be a viable replacement for a long time. E.g., the batteries required for industrial equipment and commercial trucks would be enormous in many cases.
Getting diesel-level efficiency without those nasty diesel emissions is a plus.
That said, I expect this will be a nice improvement until regular passenger vehicles convert to electric. The conversion to electric is somewhat dependent on improvements to battery capacity and charger availability,
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Color me cynical to your cynicsm... There will be applications for ICE for decades to come. Better fuel efficiency for gasoline engines is not a bad thing to pursue. A couple of Euro countries have passed bold legislation to stop selling gasoline cars by 2040. That's still 23 years away, and I personally don't have much faith that when we hit 2040 they won't backpedal a bit and soften the legislation. And even if it does come to pass, we're supposed to toss away 2 decades of better fuel efficiency beca
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Not, it's like inventing a better incandescent light bulb when people are switching to LED lights:
http://news.mit.edu/2016/nanop... [mit.edu]
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I don't see enough EVs on the market or on the roads to push a convincing argument that they are going to dominate any time soon. That being said what is on the radar of every IC-based manufacturer are the ever-increasing environmental standards that they must comply to. This might go a long way in being able to meet those goals along with maybe increasing safety or adding features that are stripped in preference to emissions controls.
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Pure compressed oxygen, in every vehicle's carburetor. You first...
They aren't even crazy enough to run oxygen injection in the NHRA. Somebody tries every 20 or 30 years, once the memory of the last explosion has faded away. Pretty sure they don't do it at NHRA or IHRA events though. Steal catches fire as it explodes, fun for the crowd.