Microsoft May Have Price Increases in Store For Windows 10 Pro Workstation, Win 10 Downgrade Customers (zdnet.com) 210
Mary Jo Foley, reporting for ZDNet: Microsoft soon will be adding a new edition of Windows 10 to its lineup. That edition, Windows 10 Pro for Workstations, may include more than just a new name and feature set. It also may come with a change to the way Microsoft licenses and prices Windows 10 for its PC maker partners -- who potentially could pass on these changes to end-user customers. I've heard from a couple of customers recently who've been contacted by different OEMs about the coming changes. One said that Microsoft will begin licensing the Windows 10 Desktop operating system by processor family, and all PCs sold with Intel Xeon workstation processors will be affected by this change. One customer said he was told there could be a price increase of roughly $70 per operating system for use on systems with processors with four or fewer cores. For machines with Xeon processors with more than four cores, there could be a price increase of roughly $230 per operating system, I was told. Windows 10 Pro for Workstations is going to be available around the time Windows 10 Fall Creators Update starts rolling out, which is October 17.
Makes sense (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Makes sense (Score:5, Insightful)
I strongly believe that our nation's justice departments and congress have completely collapsed. (Read: regulatory capture)
When Enron collapsed, love or hate him, Bush Jr.'s DOJ threw their management in jail. They didn't care about effects on "the economy" or "jobs" or anything. They tossed those sum-bitches in jail.
Meanwhile, GM makes cars that kill teenagers, nothing happens. Wall Street single-handedly PUTS US INTO A RECESSION (that could have become a full on depression) and none of them go to jail. Thanks, Eric Holder! Speaking of Holder, his department SENDS GUNS TO MEXICAN DRUG DEALERS that we know for a fact were used to murder a US border agent (and possibly countless Mexicans) and NO ONE GOES TO JAIL.
Forget "cops being above the law", you want to be above the law, just pay the $49 fee to incorporate. No need to spend time getting in shape and going through the academy.
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Wall Street single-handedly PUTS US INTO A RECESSION (that could have become a full on depression) and none of them go to jail.
As a matter of interest, what would you throw them in jail for? I mean I love the sentiment, but which laws did they actively break?
Holder I understand, the cops I understand, but being a money making fuck knuckle with the conscience of a piece of chewed up gum unfortunately is not actually a crime.
Re:Makes sense (Score:4, Interesting)
https://www.theatlantic.com/ma... [theatlantic.com]
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So looks like they were charged with a crime and settled. Sounds like business as usual in the USA.
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Sadly, you appear to be correct. Should have just let them failed, but the precedent has been set now.
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Microsoft apparently reports all you do backbto their servers, where they no doubt have a deal to let the government examine it without warrant because of the 3rd party doctrine. Thus there will be no antitrust as this is too valuable.
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Mixed record for Bush. They went after Enron - you could argue that it was because Bush was so seemingly indebted to Enron (his biggest campaign contributor) and what they did was so obviously illegal, that they had to throw the book at them.
Wall Street got a big pass from Bush's Treasury secretary, Hank Paulsen - he of Goldman Sachs fame. The 'crime' there was to bail them out without any conditions - to the point that the bankers were able to use the money to pay themselves bonuses for the year of the c
Why anti-trust? (Score:2)
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Because Apple is so far from a monopoly in the desktop field (for that matter they're not close to a monopoly in any area), it'd be utterly absurd to even hint at anti-trust. Linux has almost as big an install base (roughly half to 2/3rds, depends on which site I look at) on the desktop as OS X.
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You're funny.
As a Unix, Linux could always run circles around any version of Windows when it came to disk IO. Don't even try to pretend that Linux is "unstable".
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Why would any professional using Windows Workstation move to Linux? All of the productivity professional applications run on the Windows platform.
It depends on your profession. Lots of scientists and mathematicians use Linux on their desktop because their productivity professional applications - like LaTeX, Python, analysis code etc. run better under Linux.
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Why would any professional using Windows Workstation move to Linux?
(Excuse me while I jump back to 2005 and ask myself why I did.)
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Re: Makes sense (Score:1)
Antitrust? Microsoftâ(TM)s position in the world of computing is at itâ(TM)s weakest in decades.
Linux User (Score:1)
Paying $0 more, regardless of what Microsoft decides to charge.
Announced 2 months ago (Score:4, Informative)
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And it's still pretty hard to to outfit a single host (virtualized or not) with 2TB of memory, much less 6TB and much less a 4 CPU+ host with 6TB that is a "desktop".
Just saying.
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one of two things..
1. it won't affect any one as you clearly suggest
2. Microsoft is going to change the system requirements on cores and memory going forward. core based licensing is already in place for enterprise agreements on Server OS.
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"uh... more "CPU" (sockets) makes no sense. The world can pretty much run virtualized CPUs."
And in the server space, more sockets means more CPUs means more virtualized CPUs means more money potential.
In before Intel or AMD makes a single-core mega-threaded processor to get around this bullshit licensing and try to make some extra cash off of this bit of a blunder.
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Xeon motherboards can have one two or four CPU sockets; that's the number scheme for Xeon processors. The first number is how many processors can be used together eg. Xeon 2660 is two processor sockets, Xeon 4116 allows four processors on the same motherboard. Each CPU can have anything from a couple of cores to over a hundred, with each being hyperthreaded as well. So having a simple "number of sockets" doesn't affect anyone but the home programmer wanting to learn desktop HPC.
I've seen ISP's offer virtual
Re:Announced 2 months ago (Score:4, Informative)
it's still pretty hard to to outfit a single host (virtualized or not) with 2TB of memory, much less 6TB and much less a 4 CPU+ host with 6TB that is a "desktop".
Windows Pro Workstation is essentially just a license to sell to Windows Pro users who were buying Windows Server. We've run a few monster machines before with 4 sockets and lots of RAM for complicated 3D simulations and rendering. They required Windows Server. It was a bit of a PITA because by default it's configured to be a server, not a workstation so everything insanely locked down and has iffy driver compatibility with video cards etc.
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Yes this isn't a price increase for Windows Pro Workstation users, this is a price drop. If you wanted to run a system with more than 2 CPUs you previously had to buy Windows Server which starts at substantially more.
License Features (Score:1, Funny)
Windows should be licensed to the PC, license control is too weak. There are too many hardware changes that can be done.
It needs to be licensed to the serial numbers of the DIMMs
it needs to be licensed to the serial number of the mouse and keyboard
It needs to be licensed to the EDID of the monitor
it needs to be licensed to the serial number of the HDD
it needs to be licensed to the serial number of the network card, wireless card
Now of course, for a small fee, users could add extra hardware.
-New network card
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"People need to learn that they need to pay for software."
Hey pal, you are not a real estate developer, just a two-bit software developer.
On the ladder of "developers" that puts you about 5 rungs below Mark Eden.
Maybe you should start paying for your lunch instead of stealing other people's food from the fridge. Get a real job.
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just a two-bit software developer.
Being a two-bit software developer is actually pretty hard. And it doesn't come with much of an instruction set either.
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> And it doesn't come with much of an instruction set either.
Pish posh. That's three more than needed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Your other three can be like, HALT, XOR, and probably LOCK CMPXCHG8B EAX, just to show Intel that it can be done right.
Then pay for something GNU (Score:2)
Now of course, for a small fee, users could add extra hardware.
"Screw all that nickel and diming. I'm trying something GNU."
People need to learn that they need to pay for software.
All too true. Freedom isn't free.
[opens Debian donation form [spi-inc.org] and donates half the price of a Windows 10 license]
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Methinks that someone hath fallen into yon chasm of sar....
That's not all! (Score:2)
Why do they want to do that? They like the feeling of dominance.
There has been progress in dominance in other areas:
Spyware:
Windows 10 is possibly the worst spyware ever made [networkworld.com]
Quote: "Buried in the service agreement is permission to poke through everything on your PC."
Malware:
Microsoft is [businessinsider.com]
Android is competing. (Score:2)
Meh (Score:2, Insightful)
The intended audience of this seems like a footnote compared to overall users. The major changes, other than the sensionalist title, are support for 4 Processors, support for up to 6TB RAM, ReFS enabled by default, and and Direct SMB support.
We are talking about extremely high machines in what is most likely a fairly niche environment. If that is the case then a $70 surcharge for that OS seems reasonable given the cost of one of those computers.
The rest of us? Likely unaffected.
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Can you explain why it's justified? It's the same codebase, and I'm assuming whatever extensions are there for the Xeon processors are part of the kernel and/or distribution.
Re:Meh (Score:5, Insightful)
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They used to call that "UNIX prices". Want a heavy duty RS-232 cable to go between your UNIX server and your line printer? $120
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That's not how the PC industry works.
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But the rich won't be paying for this. The high-end systems applicable here are bought by companies with the processing need. As do all, these companies pay for all costs out of the revenue their particular business model generates. All sustained increases in overhead are passed down either directly through price increases or offset by cost reductions elsewhere. Reductions often are realized through staff and salary cuts. They are also realized through less money going out the door to other companies s
Re:Meh (Score:4, Insightful)
its justified same way as a hot dog cost 10 dollars at a stadium...
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its justified same way as a hot dog cost 10 dollars at a stadium...
That price hike for the stadium dog is far more justified. Real estate and labor costs more in the stadium than most other places you can get a hot dog.
MS charging more to run the same version of Windows on a xeon cpu is, IMO, more like charging way more for business class plane tickets but still giving them economy seats and service. I honestly can't think of anything else quite like that which actually exists/happens and is legal (extortion/kidnapping would be similar - charge more if the parent is rich -
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What the fuck is a craft person? It sounds like it isn't a "real" job.... like it's designed to allow people to blow money on making decisions for them. How does that really compare?
Those that have a machine with enough juice to need this aren't even going to blink at an additional $70.
Bullshit. Serious pros and enthusiasts run this stuff at home all the time (though, while I can't speak for everyone, windows doesn't touch any of my home xeon systems). Big corps aren't going to be happy, nor are their IT departments cause they'll have to cut a little bit out from somewhere else, but it won't really affect thei
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
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I think trying to relate cost to ability to pay isn't a terrible thing.
Yeah, it's basically progressive pricing in the sense that high tax rates for the rich are 'progressive taxation'.
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I think you missed something, those different versions of the same OS tend to have different features. Features that they have to develop that a home consumer would rather not pay the development costs.
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>" Is this bad? I think trying to relate cost to ability to pay isn't a terrible thing."
It isn't necessarily bad, if there is a free market and competition in that area that guarantees consumers have a choice and alternatives. Such competition will ensure that the prices stay low and consumers have choices and business greed is kept in check. When it is a true or partial or pseudo monopoly, that doesn't work so well anymore. As to how "good" or "bad" this specific example is, well, it depends on how y
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Is this bad? I think trying to relate cost to ability to pay isn't a terrible thing.
You like being gouged? I think it would be very unfair if the grocery store charged different prices depending on your paycheck. I'd like the price of an apple to be based on how much you want to sell it for, not how much I could pay for it. Now if there's a genuine reason why my niche features add costs and is spread across a low volume, then I'm okay with it. I'm okay with discounts for broad classes like children, students, senior citizens, division between commercial, educational and residential service
Price discrimination for bug fixes (Score:4, Insightful)
Can you explain why [a surcharge for an extremely high-end workstation is] justified?
High core counts expose bugs and inefficient algorithms that might be expensive to fix, such as process destruction being serialized [wordpress.com]. Price discrimination based on core count applies the benefit principle [wikipedia.org] to the Windows tax, allowing those affected by a particular defect associated with high core counts to foot the bill for its correction.
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Easy solution, take the money spent to fix the issue out of the programmer who wrote the code's paycheque. If your going to be a dick, at least be a dick to the one who actually caused the problem. And that's not the user discovering the bugs. They did not create the bugs, the programmer did.
If anything, they should be paying the power user a "bug bounty" for QA'ing M$'s code for them!
windows enterprise users with out the ties to big (Score:2)
windows enterprise users with out the ties to big domains?? Getting the people who run windows server as an desktop/workstation? (in the past had more sockets / ram then desktop os)
Re: Meh (Score:1)
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The intended audience of this seems like a footnote compared to overall users.
Regardless, this should once again be a wakeup call. Even if you can afford to absorb this price increase, you are still a lobster being slowly boiled to death. Some Microsoft nut-job can decide out of the blue tomorrow that you need to pay an additional ten thousand dollars per MHz, and there is nothing you can do about it unless you grow some brain cells and move to something that respects your Freedom.
And don't console yourself with the delusional insanity that would be required for Microsoft to make s
Huh (Score:5, Interesting)
When I buy computers, I always delete the Windows installation that comes with them. Although I qualify to get reimbursed for the Windows portion of the selling price, I've never bothered -- it just wasn't enough money to be worth the hassle.
This might change that equation!
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Allowing that bundling to be ubiquitous was a really bad thing for consumer choice.
Negative options are evil.
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Be careful about assumptions. I'm currently looking to buy some horsepower, and Xeon based systems are certainly in my list of possibilities.
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Ryzen gives ECC for free (you don't need to pony up for a server-class chip).
More importantly, you do not need to pony up for an Intel ECC enabling south bridge.
One of the ways Intel makes their low end ECC supporting processors seem less expensive than they really are is by transferring the price premium over to the south bridge and therefor motherboard needed to allow ECC operation. So if ECC is a requirement, the comparison is really with Intel Xeon processors and chipsets where for equivalent performance, Intel's solution is a lot more expensive.
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Yeah, that's a problem. Technically, as several court cases have ruled, they have to. Practically, some manufacturers won't as a matter of policy, preferring to force you to sue them. Those lawsuits tend to be expensive, long, and not worth the $50 or so the refund would be.
Your only realistic option is to ask the OEM what their policy on this is before you buy their equipment. Many of them offer a "naked" option that has no OS installed at all, for a slightly reduced price (even if they don't advertise it)
Really? (Score:2, Interesting)
They just made Macs look a bit less expensive by comparison.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
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Look, just because the iMac Pro costs as much as 50% of a low-end car doesn't mean Macs are only for the rich. /Sort-of-quote-from-Tim-Cook
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The iMac Pro seems to have pretty high specifications. And there's also the Mac Pro.
Losing Telemetry? (Score:3)
I wonder, if at the higher price point, you might get some of your privacy back? At least some decent options? I doubt it, but one can hope.
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Windows 10 doesn't allow you to turn off the spying on any edition below Enterprise. I'm certain that's not changing now.
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I'm more wanting to know where I can get a 'slimline' version of Windows 10. I don't want 99% of the bullshit included that I can't remove...
Stuff like:
* Onenote
* Paint 3D
* The new VR shit
Where's the 'minimal install'?
Running Windows into the ground (Score:1)
You'd think a sane company would be happy to be producing an OS which is still on something like 90% desktop/laptop market share.
https://www.netmarketshare.com... [netmarketshare.com]
Of course if you go to somewhere like statcounter you find that mobiles have taken over from desktops/laptops and if you count all devices you find that Windows is basically neck and neck with Android with iOS and MacOS following up a long way behind. I.e. the move from desktops/laptops to phones/tablets has not been good for Microsoft who managed
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No, they're moving because they don't need to have 2 people employed 100% just to manage licenses.
Re:Running Windows into the ground (Score:4)
Actually, no they aren't.
apple real needs a good gamer desktop at $1200-15 (Score:2)
apple real needs a good gamer desktop at $1200-1500 (base I know about $200+ more then a pc) with video card choice at least room for pci-e ssd + hdd.
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Apple won't do that. They charge $2,399.00 to $2,799.00 for a 15" Macbook Pro with Radeon Pro 555 with 2GB memory or a 560 with 4GB respectively.
https://www.apple.com/shop/buy... [apple.com]
Logically if they wanted to sell a machine with a beefier GPU they need to sell it for more than that. Also it's debatable how many people really want a macOS machine for gaming when they can buy a Windows one for so much less.
Windows 10 Desktop? (Score:2)
Its the time to play Choose a Vista (Score:2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
SCO Redux (Score:5, Interesting)
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Oh, make no mistake. Microsoft has taken that sort of fuckery to a new level. They don't provide any sort of proof-of-license. At all. Ever. Under any circumstances. You can't have a file cabinet full of documents proving that you purchased the use of their software.
Basically, you can buy a shit-ton of licenses from Microsoft, then a few years later, when they want more Software Assurance money, they can audit your licenses and demand payment for continued use of the software you purchased earlier, because
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you have no proof-of-purchase/license, because they don't furnish one.
You do, however, have an invoice and bank records showing the payment. That would be sufficient proof in any court of law.
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There was also that silly little sticker that you had to put on your machine (or came pre-stuck if you bought your machine pre-installed). Do they not do that anymore?
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Nope, which is one of the reasons why I would not use Microsoft software in my business.
Microsoft licensing is a confusing clusterfuck. I wasn't trying to make the case otherwise. I was just pointing out that you do, in fact, have proof of purchase whether or not Microsoft gives you a special "proof of purchase" document.
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ummm, you are obviously being sold fakes or buying from a dodgy reseller. We have detailed invoices for all our license purchases as well as EA and license numbers and even visibility of all of them with the Microsoft Licensing portal. Sounds like your organisation has been conned and you have purchased from a fake reseller.
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Just the start?? (Score:2)
Uhhh..... (Score:1)
enterprise gop's? Volume Licensing only? (Score:2)
Now if they have the enterprise GPO's but with out the Volume Licensing / software assurance needs then it will be good for small business
I have a feeling manufacturers won't pass it on (Score:2)
It would be like raising the price of a shit sandwich.
The dealer always says... (Score:2)
The first hit is free.
You've had your first hit of Windows 10 now.
Bad Microsoft! (Score:2)
We don't need more versions with tiered pricing.. we need less versions and less confusion.
Suggestion (Score:2)
Build using previous-generation platforms (Sandy Bridge/Ivy Bridge, I believe Haswell/Broadwell are also unaffected by Microsoft's update lockouts for newer chips... though I might be mistaken, and that seems to be possible to bypass anyhow)
B
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I'd love to upgrade to a newer Mac, but Apple doesn't seem to care about the low-end Macs anymore. MacBook Air would be my first pick, but it still has a TN display in 2017 and there's no 16GB RAM option. The Mac mini would be my second pick, but you can't even upgrade RAM anymore, which is ridiculous for a desktop machine especially given the prices Apple ask for the RAM upgrades. And there's still no quad-core option.
A updated MacBook Air with an IPS display, 16GB RAM option, a good keyboard, both USB-A a
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If any line is going to drop USB-A, it makes sense for the Macbook Air. The USB-A port is really fat for such a small frame and you can deal with the dongle. For the larger machines it makes no sense to drop it.
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I had a Mac. Matter of fact, I've had several. From a G5 Power Mac to a 2012 dual 6-core Xeon Mac Pro. But Apple doesn't support Nvidia cards, which I need for my software. While I was able to modify my old Mac Pro to fit one in, the 2013+ units have no ability to install anything but the included, already out-of-date AMD video cards in them. And after waiting a year for GTX-10x0 support to come, I gave up and sold my Mac Pro and built a new rendering monster that does everything I need.
It seems Apple doesn
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So true. My "daily driver" is a Late-2011 17" MBP (which I got in mid-2012 when it was announced that they would discontinue the 17" screen size). So far I have replaced the trackpad and keyboard (the hardest repair you can do by yourself), and I had to send it out a few months ago to get the GPU replaced (thanks, Nvidia for that crappy chip build, is it any wonder Apple stopped using them?) I also found a used Early-2011 17" so that I could be sure to have at least one that works. And fuck the touch bar, s
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added USB 3.0 ... swapped out the ExpressCard (that has proved to be rather useless to me) with an SD card slot
For less than $10 you can get an ExpressCard adapter [amazon.com] which adds an SDHC/MMC slot. Adapters are also available to add two USB 3.0 [amazon.com] ports.
mac pro is a joke. Imac pro just as much this is m (Score:2)
mac pro is a joke. Imac pro just as much this is market that the HP-Z is in.
Imac pro at 5K base for 8 cores and only 32GB ram??
Hell just saying for $1200-1500 (with out screen) you can get a good gaming system with ryzen or Coffee Lake.
For about $2000-$4000 you can dual intel e5 systems with a wide range of video card choice and better cooling then imac pro.
Also amd Thread Ripper systems have lot's pci-e IO. So you can have dual 10G + 2 video cards (at full X16 each) + quad pci-e ssd at X4 each and still ha
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BSD is still free, but also still dying. Just like Apple.
Not free of incompatibility (Score:3)
GNU/Linux is free as long as bootloaders, chipsets, and applications remain compatible. None of those is guaranteed of hardware in U.S. showroom chains.
Re:Paid the piper last week... (Score:5, Informative)
Or you could just run Hyper-V core 2012, run your Windows machine in one VM, and Docker containers in another VM natively, for free?
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I run a bare win 8.1 on my 4 GB RAM 300$ dell laptop, I am really serious here! I declined the win10 free update.
Now, bare means updated, no apps installed, no nothing except virtual box. Then, I run linux in a virtual box guest and performance is acceptable.
Why did I choose this strategy or is there any strategy in there?
There isn't any strategy here, just laziness or cost effectiveness (could it be the same?). I didn't have time to play around with "signed boot protected sectors" or whatever it is called
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Oh yeah, Gentoo now costs 100x as much as last year and Linus Torvalds is also talking about increasing his licensing fees by 200%.
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And if you're buying Xeon-processor class systems, this price is immaterial to you.
That doesn't automatically follow. If price is really immaterial to you and you want Windows, you aren't buying Windows 10 Pro Workstation, you're buying Windows 10 Enterprise.
At this point, everyone should be migrated up to current operating systems or have plans to.
Everyone? Really? Why? There are many solid reasons why you might not want to be using Windows 10.
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That's not the sort of freedom it's about.
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