The Impossible Dream of USB-C (marco.org) 350
Marco Arment, a prominent developer best known for co-founding Tumblr, explains things that are still crippling USB-C, despite being around for years and being used in mainstream products. Arment writes: While a wide variety of USB-C dongles are available, most use the same handful of unreliable, mediocre chips inside. Some USB-A dongles make Wi-Fi drop on MacBook Pros. Some USB-A devices don't work properly when adapted to USB-C, or only work in certain ports. Some devices only work when plugged directly into a laptop's precious few USB-C ports, rather than any hubs or dongles. And reliable HDMI output seems nearly impossible in practice. Very few hubs exist to add more USB-C ports, so if you have more than a few peripherals, you can't just replace all of their cables with USB-C versions. You'll need a hub that provides multiple USB-A ports instead, and you'll need to keep your USB-A cables for when you're plugged into the hub -- but also keep USB-C cables or dongles around for everything you might ever need to plug directly into the computer's ports. Hubs with additional USB-C ports might pass Thunderbolt through to them, but usually don't. Sometimes, they add a USB-C port that can only be used for power passthrough. Many hubs with power passthrough have lower wattage limits than a 13-inch or 15-inch laptop needs. Fortunately, USB-C is a great charging standard. Well, it's more of a collection of standards. USB-C devices can charge via the slow old USB rates, but for higher-powered devices or faster charging, that's not enough current.
Stopped reading (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, I mean the article is "Man who wrote Tumblr gives his uneducated opinion on hardware"
Re:Stopped reading (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Stopped reading (Score:5, Interesting)
So, except for that first bullet point, we are in the worst USB timeline. Still, even as bullet points, it's describing a mess.
Re:Stopped reading (Score:5, Interesting)
I put credence in what he says, but I don't understand why it's on the front page of Slashdot, given that it's basically an op-ed, which doesn't seem appropriate for here.
I follow his blog and listen to (some of) the podcasts he's on. He's opinionated, comes up against a lot of interesting situations because he pushes things in ways they weren't meant to be pushed, and, frankly, has enough disposable income after his successes (e.g. being the #2 employee at Tumblr) that he's able to do a lot of firsthand product research on products I am occasionally interested in purchasing. That said, like anyone else, he's frequently wrong about all sorts of things, and I'm sure he'd be the first to tell you that.
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My heart bleeds for him, it really does.
No one is suggesting it should.
Like I said, I don't know why his recent blog posts over minor topics have been making it to Slashdot's front page, but your snark is equally uncalled for. Just because the guy is richer than you doesn't mean he's not entitled to an opinion or that his opinion is in some way invalid or useless. Quite the contrary, I actually think he has some rather interesting things to say (some I agree with, some I disagree with), contrary to your contribution to this discussion that didn't
Re:Stopped reading (Score:5, Insightful)
If he’s “frequently wrong” then why listen to him?
I said, "like anyone else, he's frequently wrong [...]". Anyone who expresses opinions frequently is frequently wrong. That's the nature of expressing opinions, particularly when you're asked to express them off-the-cuff. One of the few things I'm sure of is that I'm frequently wrong.
In his case, however, he's able to accept correction, quick to admit that he's wrong, and whether he's right or wrong or whether I agree or disagree, he does a good job of walking you through his thought process that oftentimes hits on points I wouldn't have otherwise considered. That's why I keep listening to what he has to say.
So no, I don't listen to quack medical advice, but I do listen to opinions expressed by well-informed people who are willing to put themselves out there as having an opinion on various topics, particularly controversial ones, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't.
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He's both lucky and good, from what I've gathered. He got lucky with Tumblr, to be sure, but his Tumblr payday only came relatively recently. In the meantime, he left Tumblr to go indie and ended up building the first read-it-later type app (Instapaper) that went on to quite a bit of success. He later sold that and then built (one of?) the most popular third-party podcast players on iOS (Overcast), which is still his primary business today. In both of those he operated as a one-man team, running the entire
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It's an example of Worse Is Better. USB was easy to implement for devices because they basically just need to respond to packets in a ping pong manner. It was also covered by a patent pool so if a company joined the USB Implementers Forum it was issues a vendor ID and joined the patent pool.
Later revisions improved the speed and added a bunch of features but they did so on a carefully back compatible way. You can still plug in a USB 1.0 mouse into a USB 3.0 host, and it'll work.
https://www.dreamsongs.com/Ri [dreamsongs.com]
Re:Here is the executive summary (Score:4, Interesting)
USB is a perfect example of "good enough". It is a lowest common denominator where a device can use the USB 1.1 protocol with cheap chips, and it will be acceptably working.
USB-C is a different animal. Because charge current can go either way (charger to a laptop, then from the laptop to a small port replicator), USB-C requires more sophisticated chips to handle the protocol. Chips that the Chinese lowest bidder OEMs/ODMs just don't want to pay for, so they cut corners.
Short memory (Score:5, Insightful)
Dude has a short memory, remember when USB stood for Unsupported Serial Bus?
Firewire (Score:2, Funny)
Firewire or bust
USB-AC (Score:3, Funny)
I'm going to write a spec for USB-AC... delivers 120 Volts AC to all of your peripherals.
Re: USB-AC (Score:2, Funny)
positively shocking
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with hookers and blackjack!
Re:USB-AC (Score:5, Insightful)
I guess if you are going to make electricity dangerous, you might as well go all the way.
We have those outlets, too, here in backwards North America - but we plug the oven or clothes dryer into them.
I will say that the British have hands-down the best-designed plug for safety: sleeved conductors, ground pin opening shutters for the conductors, a fused plug, and a switch right on the outlet. Definitely a bit on the spendy side, but really well thought-out.
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
In the US, code is now to have shutters on ALL outlets, not just outdoor. But while the UK plug opens the shutter using the always-present earth pin (it can be plastic when not needed), the US shutters open by applying even pressure on both conductors evenly. So, yeah, they are kind of a pain. And yeah, my toddler ran over to "plug" a fork in once.... once! (j/k, I caught him... but seriously, what the hell is with kids sticking metal into these damn things?)
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Summary (Score:5, Insightful)
The guy is basically complaining that USB-C doesn't work well on Apple products. Most of his complaints are due directly to design decisions by Apple... "laptop's precious few USB-C ports", "dongles make Wi-Fi drop on MacBook Pros", etc.
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The guy is basically complaining that USB-C doesn't work well on Apple products. Most of his complaints are due directly to design decisions by Apple... "laptop's precious few USB-C ports", "dongles make Wi-Fi drop on MacBook Pros", etc.
USB-C won't charge my Tesla dammit!
Re:Summary (Score:5, Interesting)
This. I've been using USB-C for a while on Windows 8.1 and it's fine. Everything works as you would expect.
The only issue I had was with MTP for file transfer, but that turned out to be a software issue and the patch last month fixed it. USB-C itself though has been great, even with cheap cables.
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Interesting point. Perhaps part of the problem that is being blamed on USB-C as a standard is rooted in how USB-C is being used... forcing people to use an external dongle for Ethernet is kind of like removing someone's intestines and forcing them to use a colostomy bag, all while assuring them its a better solution...
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dongle (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:dongle (Score:5, Interesting)
I personally guess this will be five to seven years before you start seeing desktops without USB A, but you've got to start somewhere.
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USB-C seemed like a good idea (Score:3)
But now I need to worry about injection attacks when connecting to a power source. WTF?
IMHO, USB-C is not a good idea for all things.
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When I plug my USB-C phone in to my laptop to charge, it consumes power only, and then you have to manually enable data. I would imagine this is similar for other devices as well.
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The problem of USB-C (Score:3)
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I mean, what would NewStandard-C have offered? Small plugs? Micro-USB. Faster charging? Qualcomm Quick Charge and similar standards. Support for displays? HDMI and (mini-)DisplayPort already fill the need perfectly. Faster speeds? Not interesting
Switch may bring it into the forefront? (Score:2)
My List (Score:5, Insightful)
1. He's absolutely right about it being a "collection of standards", where it's unclear whether a USB-C receptacle is power-only, high-power, power+data...etc. That inconsistency is hindrance to adoption, rather than flexibility.
2. There are tens of billions of items with USB-A connectors, for which even the 480mbits/sec of USB 2.0 is 'fast enough', and USB3 speeds are "definitely fast enough". Quite a number of these things are rather expensive. By contrast, there are very, very few devices that have a USB-C port for something other than charging.
3. Machines with USB-A ports tend to have a lot of them. Most standard-sized laptops have 3-5 of them, desktops have 6-10. I've yet to see a computer with USB-C provide more than two such ports. It does not help spur adoption when the number of ports available amount to "one to charge, one for the hub for all the other things".
4. Cables are expensive...except when they are inexpensive and they don't work, or outright combust.
But the really big reason I feel that USB-C hasn't gone much of anywhere is because no one really asked for it. The 12mbits/sec of USB 1.1 was quickly a bottleneck, and it was backwards compatible. The 480Mbits/sec of USB 2.0 was fast enough for plenty of things, but bulk data transfers and other tasks benefit from USB3...and both of them were backwards compatible at a physical level. USB-C is "maybe whatever you want it to be", doesn't have the same connectors, lacks real standardization beyond the connectors...and aside from the ability to flip it, from a customer's point of view it's supposed to be superior, how?
I'm sure it will increase its momentum and/or find a niche eventually, but the fact that it's going to require a painful and expensive transition period makes it the kind of thing that will take far longer than the iterations of USB that have been the standard for nearly two decades.
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I've yet to see a computer with USB-C provide more than two such ports.
This is true, and I have to admit, I'm actually surprised at this, especially considering the lack of hubs and on cell phones that have removed the headphone adapter.
What's so hard about fitting at least four ports on a laptop?
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Maybe this is less of an issue in the Apple ecosystem, but outside of that, it's a problem.
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... from a customer's point of view it's supposed to be superior, how?
As an international standard for power delivery with enough power to charge a laptop or quick charge a phone or tablet.
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Yes, that's a potential benefit -- but you have to admit, it's a pretty small one.
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It took forever for even desktops to get more than 2 USB-3 A ports. Only in the last year maybe have I seen new systems ship with 100% USB-3 ports.
I wonder how much of this is just due to 99% of end users not fucking caring because 99% of their use case is USB-2 dependent at best, so manufacturers just don't bother with newer ports until the chipsets basically provide nothing but the new standard.
I also would guess that as usual Intel is to blame somehow, being all over the map about what ports they suppor
Thunderbolt 1 and 2 had the same issues video (Score:2)
Thunderbolt 1 and 2 had the same issues the ext pci-e idea was cool but warp it with video and to tie it on board video chips?? (at least some pro workstations had TB cards with an DP loop back cable to the full size video card)
TB3 is just warping DP + TB + USB into one.
Apple really need to keep a change port or least charger + usb-c port pass-though (full with TB) in the box.
Re: My List (Score:2)
Apple provides laptops that have four USB-C ports.
As to USB-A being such a sure standard... what happens when I plug my USB-3 drive into a device? It has a standard USB-A cable on one end, yes, and it will technically work - but on some devices it will only us USB-2.0 speeds, on others that support USB-3 it will be far faster. How is that not just as confusing for the non-technical user? It's the same device and cables and ports, but can work very differently across multiple devices...
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Apple provides laptops that have four USB-C ports.
This is a fair point. Though the Airs famously have only one, and the lower end Pros only have two, the higher end models do indeed provide four ports. Thank you.
As to USB-A being such a sure standard... what happens when I plug my USB-3 drive into a device? It has a standard USB-A cable on one end, yes, and it will technically work - but on some devices it will only us USB-2.0 speeds, on others that support USB-3 it will be far faster. How is that not just as confusing for the non-technical user? It's the same device and cables and ports, but can work very differently across multiple devices...
Because their data still moves in exactly the same way, just slower. It doesn't work "differently", just at different speeds. Moreover, USB3 ports are blue, so it's clear that plugging that drive into ports that aren't blue, your drive will work at 2.0 speeds...but still work.
By contrast, let's take a USB-C to HDMI adapter. Yes, HDMI has its own my
USB-C supported modes icon set (Score:2)
He's absolutely right about it being a "collection of standards", where it's unclear whether a USB-C receptacle is power-only, high-power, power+data...etc. That inconsistency is hindrance to adoption, rather than flexibility.
There needs to be some kind of mandatory icon set next to the USB logo, to indicate what modes a device's USB-C ports support. Maybe with arrows pointing to/from the icon to indicate which way the support goes.
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But doing that would expose the lie that USB-C simplifies connecting things together.
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2 - USB Type-C has nothing to do with speed its just another connector like A/B/micro/mini.
The problem here is that Intel co-opted the USB Type-C connector for Thunderbolt. Likely (3) is caused by manufacturers avoiding adding standard USB ports that won't function with devices plugged into other ports. Unfortunately not only are the devices are incompatible but the fucking cables are too. In short fuck Intel for Thunderbolt for a sub-par standard no one needs and is breaking the universe.
Qualcomm also ha
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I honestly thought that USB 3 was NOT compatible with older/slower stuff that I plugged into it.
It seems no matter what I plug into a USB port, Windows screams that "I could be going faster" or some other warning. Shit still works so I gave up caring. I don't use much USB these days, except my new Android phone uses USB-C which seems to work OK so far.
I'll start using it (Score:5, Interesting)
USB-C doesn't solve any problem I have, so I'm not going to go out of my way for it and am not particularly excited about it. But I won't resist it, either. I'll adopt is as devices I use switch to it.
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USB-c standardizes a connector sized for your phone, so you can plug devices into your phone without a cable. If your PC has a USB-c port and you get a Yubikey 4C, you can plug the device into your phone or your PC.
USB-c is the future. That means we're right now banging our heads on the wall and hoping that our next Chromebooks and desktops have, like, 6 USB-c ports and 6 USB3 ports.
This time around, however, the same chipset can control USB3 and USB-C ports. No fighting over parallel/serial ports tak
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Yep -- but again, it doesn't solve any problem I have. My phone already has an appropriately sized standard connection -- so standard that I can grab any random cable or charger from my box and be guaranteed that it will work.
USB-c is the future.
Obviously, and I'm not resisting it. But that doesn't mean USB-C improves anything for me. As long as it doesn't make things too much worse, I'm OK with it.
Apple's fault? (Score:3)
They decided to push USB-C and removed all USB-A ports before the USB-C specifications were ready? Sure USB-C can replace a lot of things on paper, but in real life it looks like a real mess of nearly a dozen different specifications.
And the only Apple laptop left with USB-A ports is the MacBook Air, with an old 5th-generation intel CPU, a sub-par TN display and a standard of 8GB RAM with no 16GB option.
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You can still buy the 2015 Macbook Pro.
That's been my go to unless someone specifically requests one of those idiotic 2016 models.
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You can still buy the 2015 MacBook Pro? It's not on Apple's website. Is the 13" still available? Because apart from that, the only other option for my price range is the MacBook Air and I'm not paying CAD$1300 for five-years-old technology.
Stop buying Macbooks, problem solved. (Score:2)
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What do you get then? A windows machine?
Yeah, great choices here.
Either get fucked with the hardware, or get fucked with the software. At least with Apple, you only get fucked once, up front. Microsoft will never stop causing you pain. You will live with the ever present fear that the next unblockable update will trash your machine.
Unrealistic Dreams (Score:2)
It’s comforting to think that over time, this will all settle down and we’ll finally achieve the dream of a single cable and port for everything.
No, that's not comforting. If such a wonderful time ever arrives, it will be followed shortly by a new "connector to replace them all" and we'll be at the front end of that train once again.
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One connector to rule them all,
One connector to find them,
One connector to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.
Transition to USB-C (Score:5, Informative)
The transition is unnecessarily painful, but otherwise USB-C is a great idea that addresses most of the old USB issues.
USB-C allows for must more power--I can plug in a USB-C cable and have power and accessories for my laptop, and it's great for phone charging.
USB-C finally eliminates issues with upside-down USB connectors.
USB-C has the same connector on both ends of the cable.
USB-C should be fully backwards compatible with dongles.
USB-C power should allow for nearly universal DC power. Ideally all home routers, switches, and such will use USB-C power, eliminating a wide assortment of power bricks and connectors. In fact, pretty much every wall wart power brick could be switched to USB-C. (Yes, this may mean USB-C wall warts, but it may also mean USB-C outlets.)
USB-C does have potential security issues, as does any USB-power option. This is something that device manufacturers should have been dealing with all along, but it's even more important now.
But there are problems where USB-C doesn't work as advertised. Many sub-standard cables and such are circulating, causing all sorts of problems. Lack of ports and dongles present a nasty headache in the short term.
My conclusion is that now is a lousy time to buy a new computer. In two years, they should have plenty of USB-C ports, and everything will have switched over to it. Given the choice for a phone, though, I would pick USB-C over micro-USB.
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USB-C finally eliminates issues with upside-down USB connectors.
It finally eliminates those damn 4 dimensional connectors. You know what I mean: try and plug in a USB-A or mini/micro connector: nope. Flip it around, still no joy, Flip it around again and only then will it fit.
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USB-C does have potential security issues, as does any USB-power option. This is something that device manufacturers should have been dealing with all along, but it's even more important now.
I don't know about USB-C, but with the other USBs, this is a solved problem. You get a power-only cable. It has no data lines, so there's no security issue.
My conclusion is that now is a lousy time to buy a new computer.
I agree. Same with buying a new phone -- now is the time to hunker down and wait a couple of years to see how this stuff settles out.
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I'm confident that USB-C will be in good shape within two years. With a phone, the only big issue is charging, and I think USB-C is ready for the job, so I wouldn't hold off on that. Of course, if you switch to wireless charging, then the USB issue is mostly moot. Then again, I don't use my phone with headphones, so issues with missing headphone jacks and dongles don't impact me. In general, though, the USB port on a phone has a much narrower range of uses than on a PC, so it's a lot easier to deal with
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With a phone, the only big issue is charging, and I think USB-C is ready for the job, so I wouldn't hold off on that.
Unless you want to plug the phone into, say, a laptop or other such device, which I do regularly. So I'll wait and see with the phone as well -- I'm hoping that I can hold off long enough for the entire ecosystem to settle out a bit.
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In 2 years a phone that you buy today will likely be ready for replacement anyway, by which time the shaking out (shaking down??) of the USB choices might have occurred. Or not.
I mean, we're not allowed to change out the battery any longer and those have a life expectancy of about 2 years. That alone dictates the life span of a phone.
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USB-C allows for must more power--I can plug in a USB-C cable and have power and accessories for my laptop, and it's great for phone charging.
Presuming, of course, that you have the right cable and the right power adapter. Not all USB-C cables support all of the power delivery standards, and there are several incompatible power-delivery standards. If you pick the wrong ones, they'll plug in, but they won't work—or they'll work improperly, possibly draining your device instead of charging it. And if you buy a third-party cable, there's a good chance it's a fire risk.
USB-C should be fully backwards compatible with dongles.
Should be, but isn't. Sure, it probably works with USB 2.0 dongles. But supp
More cross-discipline ignorance (Score:3, Insightful)
Marco was CTO & 1st lead dev, not co-founder (Score:2)
Arment was Tumblr's first lead developer & CTO, but not a co-founder. It was founded by its CEO, David Karp.
ASCII art dick joke (Score:2)
Slashdot, you're letting me down here... Nobody read far enough to get the all but gift wraped:
Come on... If all you've got is a thinner B---D, you need to try harder.
Bitchin' like it's 1999 (Score:2)
This reads like a mirror of a rant from 1999 about how the hubs were crap, the cables expensive and variable, and the confusion rampant.
USB will never take off!
what is mindboggling (Score:2)
Re:Fuck You Very Much, Apple. (Score:5, Informative)
You realize that USB-C is in no way proprietary crap, right?
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That and that the removed interfacens were proprirtary crap.
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You realize that USB-C is in no way proprietary crap, right?
You realize that other than supplying power, the interface is essentially crap, right?
When functionality becomes that crippled, the interface might as well be proprietary crap.
Moving the goalposts much? You made a specific claim, you were told you were outright wrong, and now you're trying to say that you may as well be right? Huh?
Moreover, I understand having ideological differences with proprietary things, but what the hell does it even mean when you suggest that something that's low quality may as well be proprietary? That makes no sense at all.
Re:Fuck You Very Much, Apple. (Score:5, Insightful)
USB-C is proprietary? Since when?
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I have no idea with some USB-C ports what they do. How many PCI-E lanes do they pass with Thunderbolt, if any. Can they ramp up the power settings to 24 or 48 volts if needed? Can it support charging in either direction, so a charger can charge my laptop, and the laptop can charge my phone?
Ideally, it should do this all without complaint, but manufacturers, being manufacturers want to scrimp on those pennies, so you may never know what that port may support.
Re:Fuck You Very Much, Apple. (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh so you’ve just redefined proprietary to mean something it has never meant. Gotcha.
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Yes, he misused the term, but he also has a point. Pretend he said "poorly supported" rather than "proprietary".
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Sure, I would agree with that but that hardly seems to be Apple’s fault. It’s what you get with “open” standards. Just like I have to juggle cables and dongles for devices where some have mini-USB and some have micro-USB and sometimes all I have is a cable with one connector and the device has thw other type.
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hey, they got the "build incompatible shit and flog it to people as a veblen good" part of jobs' legacy spot on...^M ...wait that was his whole legacy.
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Except that this is about USB-C which is in no way proprietary...
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The idea of Lightning cables is good but being Apple of course its proprietary. I had Android phones for years and recently switched to an iPhone. While some things work better others I can't stand. Like not being able to use the phone like a USB drive. If I'm not at my home computer there is no way to add an audio or video file onto the phone other than maybe through iCould.
I guess my ideal phone is a jailbroken iPhone. That way I can ssh in and do whatever I want without being stopped by the OS protection
This has little to do with Apple (Score:2)
Yeah, that's right. Fuck You, for removing every proven interface off your latest hardware and replacing it with this proprietary crap.
What "proprietary crap" are you talking about? USB-C may have issues but it isn't proprietary anymore than previous versions of USB. And I'm not remotely interested in going back to 25 position D-Subs or other crappy serial bus interfaces from days of yore. Just because an interface is "proven" doesn't mean it is necessary. And just because it is "proven" doesn't mean we should be stuck with it for the rest of eternity. I'm not advocating removing interfaces that are necessary/useful currently for no g
Re:This has little to do with Apple (Score:5, Interesting)
And now? USB-C has, indeed, been proven... to be quite a mess.
I have a USB-C phone that will charge from my backup battery, which will then go to sleep because it is no longer charging something; the phone will then wake it up and begin charging it. I have a laptop that charges via USB-C. Well, no, I don't. I have a laptop that charges via Thunderbolt through a USB-C port; it will not charge from any of the various power supplies I have, even if they support the voltage and current it expects; though it will happily dump the content of its own battery into my phone or a portable battery via the very same port.
That's to add to TFS, of course, as I've experienced most of what the author of that list of complaints has written, as well.
USB-A (and B) never had these problems, USB-C does, primarily because it's trying to be more than just USB. Does the port support Thunderbolt? With which cables? HDMI? DisplayPort? Both? Neither? And with which adapters is it compatible? There is no way to tell without pawing through the manual for the device the port is on, and we don't get manuals with our devices anymore.
The beauty of USB was that anything that could plug in to the port would just work, and we had that for nearly two decades. With USB-C, that's a thing of the past.
Yes, USB-C is a huge step forward... to a time I recall before USB-A took hold. If you're over 30 and remember that time as well, and still think USB-C is a net win, you'll be the first I've met.
USB-A did not "just work" at outset either. (Score:4, Insightful)
If you remember the times before USB-A you should ALSO remember that it didn't "just work" at the outset either. Specifically I seem to remember an awful lot of different USB devices (from CD-ROM burners to special mice) that needed drivers added to work, so it was absolutely not the case you could plug in any USB-A device and it would just work...
Even today in the waning years of USB-A I have run across devices that do not just work, trying to get a working USB-A -> Serial port adaptor was a very trying experience. I have also had over the years some VERY flaky USB-A external storage devices that were very particular as to which cables they worked well with, or simply were not very stable at all.
Within just a few years most of the USB-C issues will have smoothed out. That is in large part due to Apple shipping a LOT of devices with USB-C only, meaning that there is great motivation to making a lot of components that work well with USB-C which provides a lot of financial motivation as well as making Apple kind of a reference hardware standard for testing, as in if you are shipping a USB-C device or cable today you may make sure it works with a number of Windows laptops or phones, but you WILL make sure it works with a MacBook Pro or your Amazon ratings will be in the toilet.
Re:USB-A did not "just work" at outset either. (Score:5, Insightful)
If you remember the times before USB-A you should ALSO remember that it didn't "just work" at the outset either. Specifically I seem to remember an awful lot of different USB devices (from CD-ROM burners to special mice) that needed drivers added to work, so it was absolutely not the case you could plug in any USB-A device and it would just work...
Yes, drivers. Software. Which you can add after-the-fact. That's always going to be a problem and is fairly diffeent from the issues USB-C faces.
Even today in the waning years of USB-A I have run across devices that do not just work, trying to get a working USB-A -> Serial port adaptor was a very trying experience. I have also had over the years some VERY flaky USB-A external storage devices that were very particular as to which cables they worked well with, or simply were not very stable at all.
Ah, yes, cheap crap products and cheap crap cables. You can take a perfect standard (which I'm not saying USB-A is by any means) and make it look like shit by not following it. The problem with USB-C is that it's not a standard, it's a collection of standards which all physically look the same to the end user. Any of those standards might be supported by a given port, with no way to tell which are and are not supported by that port; this leads to a situation where the thing can plug in but can potentially never work because the hardware to make it work simply is not there. This was not a problem with USB-A where, at most, you might need a driver; even USB 1 vs 2 vs 3 was just a matter of speed and devices made for any of those standards would work with any of those standards.
Within just a few years most of the USB-C issues will have smoothed out.
How do you fix a "USB-C" Thunderbolt device not working with a non-Intel system? How do you fix a USB-C display cable not working with your laptop that doesn't support HDMI or DisplayPort passthru? Or supports the HDMI when your display expects DisplayPort (or vise-versa)? How do you fix Thunderbolt and USB protocols requiring different cables despite sharing the same port?
You don't just install drivers like the good old days of USB, these are hardware issues.
That is in large part due to Apple shipping a LOT of devices with USB-C only, meaning that there is great motivation to making a lot of components that work well with USB-C which provides a lot of financial motivation as well as making Apple kind of a reference hardware standard for testing, as in if you are shipping a USB-C device or cable today you may make sure it works with a number of Windows laptops or phones, but you WILL make sure it works with a MacBook Pro or your Amazon ratings will be in the toilet.
Define "USB-C only". Is that USB 3.1 over USB-C, HDMI over USB-C, DisplayPort over USB-C, Thunderbolt over USB-C, analog audio over USB-C, or what? Any of those? All of those? What haopens when you plug your Thunderbolt over USB-C device into a computer which only supports USB 3.1 over USB-C? What drivers make that work?
That;s the mess.
You complain that USB-A was no better because you might have needed some drivers, completely missing that the problems with USB-C cannot be fixed with drivers.
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The problem with USB-C is that it's not a standard, it's a collection of standards which all physically look the same to the end user.
USB-A power only cables. *drops mic*
How do you fix a "USB-C" Thunderbolt device not working with a non-Intel system?
The same way USB 3 external storage devices do, graceful degradation to other less performant standards.
It's not like some devices not being supported by some computers is new at all i the world OF USB, so to me USB-C is no worse than USB-A in that regard.
You c
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USB-A power only cables. *drops mic*
You might want to pick that mic back up. I repeat:
You can take a perfect standard (which I'm not saying USB-A is by any means) and make it look like shit by not following it.
The same way USB 3 external storage devices do, graceful degradation to other less performant standards.
Wake me up when that happens. What you're missing was that USB (the protocol, not the connector) does that be default; adding Thunderbolt to the mix means that Thunderbolt devices now need to also add in USB chipsets in order to gain that ability and, well, most of them don't. if usb-C was just USB, well, hell, it;d be great; but it's not. Your proposed "solution" also only "works" for the cherry-picked problem you quoted; what about the rest of that paragra
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in large part due to Apple shipping a LOT of devices with USB-C only
Although I'm not an Apple user, I have no particular animosity toward Apple. However, this aspect of them really makes me mad.
If the only effect Apple's decisions had was in the Apple ecosystem, it wouldn't matter to me. But they keep making these hardware decisions that other manufacturers feel the need to adopt. Those decisions frequently (usually?) seem to be designed to make my life more painful and provide minimal benefits to me at best.
USB-C is a Good Thing (Score:2)
No, but it would be nice to keep it around alongside the new and unproven interface until that new interface becomes proven. We're talking about the (still) ubiquitious USB-A port, here, not some dead-end technology we've been trying to get away ffor years. Well, maybe some people have been trying, but even they seem to agree that jumping to USB-C before it was proven was a mistake.
Again, this is not a problem with USB-C. This is a problem with Apple's product design. Separate issues and nothing in either case that won't resolve itself with time.
USB-A (and B) is widespread but it was a badly designed connector and IS a dead end design. The power transmission in USB-C alone makes it a massive improvement. Yes it's reasonable to argue Apple got a little ahead of themselves but that doesn't mean their design instinct was wrong - just premature. They probably just should have waited
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IS a dead end design.
I've been seeing this sentiment quite a lot over the past couple of months. Must be on a talking points sheet somewhere.
In any case, this is a meaningless statement since every design is a dead-end design. The only question is how far up the road that end is.
The power transmission in USB-C alone makes it a massive improvement.
It's an improvement, certainly, but "massive"? I disagree. It's not like it's some kind of game-changer. It's an incremental improvement.
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The problem with USB-A was poor initial support for the specification. The problem with USB-C is that it's a collection o
How is USB-C proprietary??? (Score:2)
Thunderbolt (which the USB-C connector replaces, but still transports) was proprietary... USB-C is an industry standard. So why are you complaining about PROPRIETARY garbage? Apple has changed to a STANDARD connector, that can optionally carry Apple's proprietary protocol - but you can simply choose not to use it if you wish.
The problem with USB-C is the same as most other PC industry standards, that is to say it's an ill-thought out hot mess in practice.
I think USB-C from the physical port side is actual
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Thunderbolt (which the USB-C connector replaces, but still transports) was proprietary... USB-C is an industry standard. So why are you complaining about PROPRIETARY garbage? Apple has changed to a STANDARD connector, that can optionally carry Apple's proprietary protocol - but you can simply choose not to use it if you wish.
The entire point of TFS is the fact that USB-C has essentially turned into garbage for damn near anything other than supplying power.
And when a company decides to remove every other type of I/O and replace it with garbage, you're not left with many options for interfacing devices. The utter lack of actual functionality is exactly what has turned USB-C into proprietary crap. And Apple's latest iterations of hardware bet the fucking farm on it.
Do you think users of hardware really give a shit who holds the
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With new job I got a new MacBook Pro
I'm so sorry.
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It had that meaning from before it started to be used for copy protection devices.
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I just like to say it.
Re:Dongles? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because "Dongle" has a negative connotation of inconvenience, hassle, and dubious benefit. And that's basically what you have today with the dime and quartering morass of dongles people have to deal with now. Seems entirely fitting, IMO.
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When did the word "dongle" become a synonym for "adapter" instead of referring to a hardware copy protection device? Who made this decision, and why wasn't I sent the memo?
When laptops started requiring RJ45 adapters because they didn't have any built-in. For example, in the late 90's some Toshiba laptops required ethernet adapters and people (users) started calling them dongles so IT support had to as well... In other words, this usage has been going on for a long time.
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"Dongle" has verifiably been in use in publications since 1981, and anecdotally (from me) in use colloquially for at least a few years before that. Originally, it didn't have anything to do with RJ45 adapters (those came later), but -- according to my memory -- referred to certain printer adapters.
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