Microsoft's Meltdown and Spectre Patch Is Bricking Some AMD PCs (betanews.com) 299
Mark Wilson writes: As if the Meltdown and Spectre bug affecting millions of processors was not bad enough, the patches designed to mitigate the problems are introducing issues of their own. Perhaps the most well-known effect is a much-publicized performance hit, but some users are reporting that Microsoft's emergency patch is bricking their computers. We've already seen compatibility issues with some antivirus tools, and now some AMD users are reporting that the KB4056892 patch is rendering their computer unusable. A further issue -- error 0x800f0845 -- means that it is not possible to perform a rollback.
Score yet another for MS quality control. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Score yet another for MS quality control. (Score:5, Insightful)
After firing the vast majority of their QA, why would they expect anything different than a massive drop in quality? They knew this would happen, but decided to do it anyway.
Re:Score yet another for MS quality control. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Microsoft really seems to be de-emphasizing quality assurance in the Windows product. Makes me feel real good about the forced updates of Windows 10.
Well, hurry up and grab the pitchforks. The article includes this helpful note on the scope of the issue:
The number of people experiencing the problem appears to be fairly significant
So we know that... somebody is affected, so it must be indicative of MS's gross incompetence. Oh, and let's be perfectly clear about something. If Microsoft delayed this patch, for any reason, whatsoever, you would still be condemning them for not snapping their fingers and producing a patch for this critical security vulnerability.
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Re: Score yet another for MS quality control. (Score:2)
You don't need stringent quality control when the patches are FORCED onto users systems. ( ala Windows 10 )
You only need it when the consumer has a CHOICE to install it or not.
In other words: The carrot isn't needed as long as you have a stick.
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"MS spends a fortune in engineer-hours on QA"
Tell that to my FX-9370-based system which is currently undergoing a full reinstall due to this bullshit. Microsoft might spend that money on testing against INTEL products. Why do you think the term "Wintel" exists?
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To be fair, a lot of the blame this time goes to Intel. I speak, however, as someone who hasn't allowed any Microsoft software on my computers in nearly two decades.
Windows Updates broken in December (Score:4, Interesting)
I haven't seen too much online but MS did something to break Windows Updates for many users sometime around Dec 3-5. I have one customer with a couple hundred PC's and Windows Update is still broken on about 70% of them. The only fixes I've seen involve setting the date back on the PC by about 6 months, running Updates again, let it fail, then change the date back to current. The problem with this fix (and the others I've seen) erases the Windows Updates history so it appears they've never been run (and nothing installed prior can be uninstalled)
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What I don't get is why MS doesn't maintain a standalone "Windows Update" tool that resets/fixes the built-in Windows update client. I would imagine that MS probably knows the top 25 reasons it craps out and could fix them pretty easily.
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They do:
https://support.microsoft.com/... [microsoft.com]
Sadly, the success rate IME is only about 50%, and manual methods are required, e.g. turn off Windows Update service, rename "c:\windows\software distribution", restart Windows Update service, and try again.
Even that doesn't always work.
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How about you reformat your disk and recover from backup? I remember having to do that a couple of times. Of course that was decades ago.
It wasn't quality control that drove me away from MSWind, it was their EULA, but I've got to admit that the current quality on Linux is better than the quality was on MSWind around 2000. Can't even guess about their current quality (outside of aggravated posts, which are biased) because I won't agree to their EULA.
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Have you tried running WSUS Offline on these? If a future update fixes the problem that might do it.
why no rollback (Score:5, Interesting)
Why does error 0x800f0845 mean rollback is impossible?
Re:why no rollback (Score:5, Funny)
It causes the Flux Capacitor to revert to 2D matrix transformations, creating more matrices than normal to compensate for dimension loss, which triggers overflows in the TRXR precision-damper register. Next question?
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You’re running Windows 10 on a Retro Encabulator, aren’t you?
Re:why no rollback (Score:4, Funny)
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Tried that, it burnt my toast. Can't have that.
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Tried that, it burnt my toast. Can't have that.
You forgot to bombard the tray with a tachyon pulse... just plug your headphones into the line-out jack, side->load your nanocode into the IMU and use the 3rd master jumper configuration (the stripey one with a reindeer). Don't forget to butter afterwards not before.
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Yeah, but who can cast a 3rd level spell these days? You'd be lucky to get cantrips to work.
Re:why no rollback (Score:5, Informative)
Why does error 0x800f0845 mean rollback is impossible?
Error 800f0845 (and similar error detail codes) generally means the post-reboot stage of the auto-installer is fubar'd and since this update apparently didn't bother to create a restore point, then you can't easily rollback unless you happened create a restore point before the auto-installer tried to install this update.
About the only way around these types of errors is to wait until M$FT issues a new windows update troubleshooter which you will probably need to run in safe mode (which also might have to be manually downloaded on another computer depending on how big a mess they made with this original hot fix). Worst case it might involve an in-place upgrade (basically installing windows on top of itself).
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I can't believe they took safe mode out of Win 10.
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They did?
https://support.microsoft.com/... [microsoft.com]
Re:why no rollback (Score:5, Informative)
Re:why no rollback (Score:5, Informative)
I just dealt with this on a computer with an AMD processor, including the 0x800f0845 error.
Safe mode would not boot.
After enough failed attempts, it offered me the "repair your computer" option.
Two system restores - the most recent and the oldest, failed with the 0x800f0845 errror.
After that, however, a "startup repair" fixed it.
I am writing this on the computer in question.
I have no idea if this will work on all AMD equipped computers, but it certainly worked on this one.
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You can also do 3 interrupted cold boots in a row. That will go to the repair options screen.
The problem is that EFI booting is too fast to leave time for the button press. They really need to have a separate EFI entry point for this instead of everything being under "Windows Boot Manager" so you can at least easily switch in EFI settings.
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It's quite possible that the PC can't boot from USB.
AMD AM3+ generation motherboards where hit and miss for booting via USB. And then off course you need the USB drivers slipstreamed into the ISO so that it can be accessed via the installer.
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And then off course you need the USB drivers slipstreamed into the ISO so that it can be accessed via the installer.
I think this part only applies if you're booting from a USB3 port.
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It doesn't - the error code (I think - it's not documented) something bad happened on restart. Windows update should have created a restore point (as it usually does) and you can revert the snapshot in safemode or in recovery.
I've seen it occur on machines with failing disk drives long before this though.
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The child who wrote the "article" doesn't understand anything. These aren't bricked, as they are fixable with a reinstall.
Everyone keeps backups like they are supposed to, right?
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Because 0x23309df008e.
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"Windows 10 is the most secure OS ever, beliebe me! I know more about OS's and The Webs than Mark Gates and Steve Bezos glued together. That foreigner Linus Tribbles is a fake-news loser. Open Sauce is an un-American commie plot. So sad. MWGA!"
AM2+ cpus are quite old even intel system from tha (Score:3)
AM2+ cpus are quite old even intel system from that time have limited drivers for new windows.
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Crap, that's what my home PC is running on. Guess it's time to permanently block updates...
Never mind, I'm good - I'm actually running an AM3 processor (Phenom II X4). Guess it is time to go block updates, though.
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Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[-HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\wuauserv]
Run your export to restore the Windows Update service. Run this one to remove it again. Once the updates want to reboot you can remove wuauserv because that has nothing to do with the actual update installation at that point.
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People have their processes, although going into services.msc and disabling the update service there would be the safer bet (like if there's an update to update the update service).
Re:AM2+ cpus are quite old even intel system from (Score:5, Insightful)
I currently have 4 AM2+ systems running at home and while they are old, they are more then capable for what I need them to do. They're all running Windows 7. So I'll have to look into this before allowing them to be updated.
Processors are not like they were in the 80's and 90's. In the 1980's it was seriously expensive to update, so I didn't do so as often as I did in the 1990's. I probably updated my systems every 2 to 3 years back then. But I don't' see the need to do so anymore. Unless you are a serious gamer, or do a lot of video editing/transcoding there's no need. It's been a while since I played any games, but the Phenom 2 1100T with an NVidia 730 had enough power to keep all of the settings pretty high and no issues with frame rate. Why should people be forced to send perfectly usable hardware to a landfill simply because it's not the latest shiny thing on the market?
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Why should people be forced to send perfectly usable hardware to a landfill simply because it's not the latest shiny thing on the market?
This is a bit of an overreaction. No one is forced to send usable hardware to a landfill. No one at Microsoft intentionally ruined any machines, they just have a bug somewhere and, more important, an inadequate testing system.
Please don't make a software bug into a conspiracy.
Re:AM2+ cpus are quite old even intel system from (Score:5, Insightful)
If you think that's true, explain Windows 10.
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This is a bit of an overreaction.
First of all I was responding to the poster that stated that "AM2+ was rather old hardware and even Intel has drives issues with hardware this old". Implying that they shouldn't have to worry about this. But if Microsoft originally cleared these computers to be Win10 compatible, it's pretty shitty to just drop support.
Perhaps. It depends on if they fix the issue, doesn't it? To be fair, the title is also a bit of an over reaction. This update isn't bricking the system. It's still possible to (re)install a
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Seems like it ran fine yesterday.
Full steam ahead! (Score:3)
Keep shoving those updates down people's throats. Don't give them an opportunity to not update. It's not their machine anyway, so why should they have a choice when or if to update?
How much did Intel pay M$ (Score:5, Insightful)
How much did Intel pay M$ to brick AMD systems?
*tightens tin foil hat*
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Especially in the case of Microsoft, Hanlon's razor [wikipedia.org] should be applied.
I don't have a problem with the idea that Intel is trying to actively sabotage AMD (they've done it in the past), but that it seems a lot more likely that Microsoft made a stupid mistake.
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It doesn't sound like it's bricked (Score:5, Informative)
I've got some old Athlon boards around I was using until last year. They're great for HTPC if you don't mind a bit of noise from the fan. They make good gaming rigs for e-sports style games if you pair them with something like a 1050 or an RX460. The boards came out after solid state caps were a thing so they last forever.
Re:It doesn't sound like it's bricked (Score:5, Informative)
'bricked' means the hardware is messed up, e.g. you can't reinstall an OS.
Came here to say the same thing, if it will boot from a usb/dvd/cd/floppy/network it isn't bricked.
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'bricked' means the hardware is messed up, e.g. you can't reinstall an OS.
Came here to say the same thing, if it will boot from a usb/dvd/cd/floppy/network it isn't bricked.
What if you don't have a dvd/cd/floppy and your network is borked?
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Only if they want Linux installed. I won't agree to the MS EULA even as a proxy.
Intel Only (Score:2)
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... as far as we know.
The researchers have not proven that AMD processors could not be affected by a future tweaked version of Meltdown. They have just not been able to perform Meltdown on AMD themselves yet.
I suppose that Microsoft is therefore choosing to err on the side of caution.
Re:Intel Only (Score:4, Informative)
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Spectre and Meltdown are not the same, though, I believe, Meltdown is a subclass of Spectre. Many of the sites seem to confuse the two, sometimes, I suspect, intentionally. Certainly I suspect the Intel press release of intentionally confusing them.
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You fix it by not sharing kernel page tables and relying on memory protection to keep it hidden.
It doesn't matter what CPU you use, you can always not share the kernel memory. Doing different things for different processors is what adds complexity.
Looks like they tried to make it selective and broke it.
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FWIW, the "fix" that Intel provided to Linux would have installed on AMD CPUs as well as Intel CPUs. So if MS just accepted the Intel patch, MS is pushing out abuse authored, possibly with malice aforethought, but Intel. The Linux developers let AMD alter the fix so that AMD chips weren't impacted. There seems a fair possibility the MS hid the code from AMD, so they never had a chance to offer their input.
If my above guesses are correct, then MS was not being malicious. Merely incompetent. So you shoul
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Also having a different kernel mapping scheme on Intel and AMD opens up the possibility of Intel only and/or AMD only kernel mode bugs.
Then again it seems like not all AMD systems are bricked so the patch does seem to have an AMD only kernel mode bug.
Of course Microsoft being Microsoft it's a bit hard to work out what they did.
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I guess they'll be suing ARM [arm.com] any day now.
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So ARM is falsely claiming 4 of their processors are vulnerable to Meltdown [arm.com] so they can get some of that broken window [slashdot.org] action???
Not bricking (Score:5, Insightful)
The OS has to be reinstalled.
How is that bricking?
Re:Not bricking (Score:4, Insightful)
How is that bricking?
It's not. You get it, I get it, most /. users get it. Average millennial braindead idiot that's pumping out clickbait? Doesn't get it. But it sure sounds shit hot in the media and drives those clicks doesn't it?
It's the same as hacker, cracker, and phreaker. Only us old people know the difference, to younger kids it's all hacker.
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It's the same as hacker, cracker, and phreaker. Only us old people know the difference, to younger kids it's all hacker.
I think you mean to essentially the entire population.
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You should say "middle-age people". I was born in 72, but my wife and most of her siblings/cousins were born in the 60's, and they act like my parents (or even my grandparents) when it comes to computers. My grandparents are still alive on one side of the family, which makes it difficult for me to feel really old despite what my kids like to tell me. ;-)
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How is that bricking?
My conversation with quite a few "normal people" (non-iT folks) with a computer problem they asked me to look at....
"Yeah. That's going to take a reinstall to fix that. Do you have your Windows install disc?"
"Uh, what's that?"
For many if not most people, when this happens, the PC is bricked as far as they know. A new PC purchase is likely to follow.
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If the repairs to a car after an accident approach or exceed the value of the car, an insurance company considers the car totalled.
In this case, the average user will probably have to take his computer to a repair place to find out WHY it isn't starting up anymore, pay for diagnostics, then for reinstall of Windows, then have to start installing all his programs and games again, if he's lucky he has a backup of savegames ...
He is essentially starting over. Might as well buy a new computer rather than go thr
I doubt it... (Score:2)
I find it hard to believe that any software patch is managing to brick a PC. Short of flashing the BIOS, it's almost impossible to brick a PC with software. A simple format/reinstall will recover the PC without issues.
Lead Zeppelin (Score:2)
Poor End Users (Score:2)
It makes it really hard for anyone to ever want to trust MS when their patches break the OS, more than twice in your life, much less (it feels like) once a year.
It is hard for the end users who have 1000's of machines, or just don't understand patching, or simply don't care, to try and remember to patch manually after checking that the patches work. It is hard when you have "It must be patched" rules to follow. I get it, but on the other side, you end up spending weeks rebuilding boxes when you lose all
Easy fix for this update (Score:2)
I almost never log in to /. anymore to post as I have found the quality of the site to have dropped off significantly in the past many years. For this though I make an exception.
For all the hand ringing and complaining about updating windows 10 on a site of technically competent people, for the love of God just go into services and disable windows update. This will stop the evil corporation from pushing crap onto your machine. After all the bitching is done about 'whatever the current crisis' is, turn on
The cure is worse than the disease (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The cure is worse than the disease (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re: The cure is worse than the disease (Score:2)
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Bricking? (Score:5, Informative)
Kids these days don't even know what it means to brick a device.
Here's a hint: A bricked device might as well be a brick. It is unusable for its original purpose, forever.
This incident is nothing more than a fubared update patch. The device (computer) can easily be made useful again by reinstalling the OS, or even waiting for Microsoft to issue a fix. It is certainly not bricked in any sense. Although you might be tempted to throw a brick at it.
Yup, used system restore. (Score:2)
We've already seen compatibility issues with some antivirus tools, and now some AMD users are reporting that the KB4056892 patch is rendering their computer unusable. A further issue -- error 0x800f0845 -- means that it is not possible to perform a rollback.
I got a BSOD on my old AMD Athlon 64 3500+ system running Windows 7 Ultimate after applying the 2018-01 Security Monthly Quality Rollup for Windows 7 for x64-based Systems (KB4056894), but was able to recover using System Restore.
MS's version of Agile (Score:3)
Re:The wonders of the free market (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, I've been using Cuban designed CPUs since the 80's and haven't had any of these problems.
Re: Cuba [Re:The wonders of the free market] (Score:2, Interesting)
Cuba is not a good example of "no free market" because they are not a democracy. In a socialistic democracy, you can vote for candidates who fix bad systems/products. In a dictatorial system, you can't.
Political and economic systems are now different things. We have dictatorial capitalism and socialist democracies. Our political vocabulary was created when they were mostly related several decades ago, and it causes confusion.
Note that a semi-socialistic system can create MORE competition by breaking up big
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Yeah, I've been using Swedish designed CPUs since the 80s and haven't had any of these problems.
Re: Cuba [Re:The wonders of the free market] (Score:4, Funny)
I've been using Swedish designed CPUs
Do they come in a flat pack with a hex wrench ?
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well played =D
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By your implicit argument, free market capitalism doesn't work because we don't use CPUs from Chile, which is much larger in population than Cuba.
It turns out that China, which has a non-free economy [wikipedia.org] designs some quite capable CPUs [wikipedia.org] which have given China the top spot in supercomputing for the past four years. If you look at the top ten list of supercomputers, China represents roughly twice the computing power on that last that America does.
This doesn't mean that I advocate the kind of government-crony capi
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The Free Market allows you to have a practical choice between Windows 10 and Windows 10 Pro. If you don't like one, you can use the other. It's almost as good as being able to choose between Comcast and AT&T. I love the smell of choice in the morning. Viva Choice!
What makes the Windows tax negative? (Score:2)
The free market allows you to have a practical choice between Microsoft, Apple, Ubuntu, Redhat, any of a dozen flavors of fully open-source/free Linux, BSD, EComStation (PS/2...remember that?) running on hardware from dozens of manufacturers using CPUs from a half-dozen or so big chipmakers.
Except laptop computers shipping with (and warranted to run) GNU/Linux tend to demand a higher price than laptop computers shipping with (and warranted to run) Windows, despite GNU/Linux's smaller royalty per copy than Windows. What in the free market makes this happen? And what in the free market results in there being only two chipmakers producing CPUs capable of running Wine, namely AMD and Intel?
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Capitalism: Works as expected (Score:2, Offtopic)
The free market guarantees meritocracy, right? right??? RIGHT!?!?
Adam Smith, "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations" - 1776, did not predict joy on every single day, he predicted better outcomes in the long run than otherwise available.
So yes, capitalism allows us to switch to macOS, Linux, FreeBSD, etc to reward those and/or punish Microsoft. That is the mechanism by which a meritocracy is determined.
Your Bug Report Status: Works as expected.
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In the long run we'll all be dead.
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Hardware isn't software; it takes a lot more than changing code and a recompile to fix.
Logic problems are only part of the story -- after the logic is done, there's physics to deal with (voltage breakdown, heat, crosstalk, etc). Then there's the "rat's nest" of conductive paths for the signals to follow.
Coders may complain about following spaghetti, but they've got nothing compared to what hardware guys deal with. Even minor changes can require considerable amounts of re-routing.
After that is complete, they
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Considering it requires malware to be run on the system, there are better ways to spy out user's passwords (without dumping some 32GB of RAM). So, why bother?
The attacker's malware doesn't have to dump all the physical RAM. It CAN do so, if he feels like it. But it can also read it selectively, RAM style, a bit or byte at a time. So he can just go right to whatever he wants to see.
Given that the side-channel bandwidth is about that of fiber-to-the-curb DSL, rather than a memory bus, that is actually the
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If it was an AMD CPU it wasn't vulnerable to Meltdown anyway. Spectre is a slightly different exploit which doesn't (currently) break permissions. Dangerous, yes, and will probably soon have an exploit designed, but that hasn't happened yet (that we know of). And the OS update doesn't protect against Spectre anyway.
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Then make it optional until it's been well field tested. Since they don't, they deserve a lot more blame than they're getting.