Tesla Rejected More Advanced Driver Monitoring Features On Its Cars, Says Report (theverge.com) 143
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Verge: Engineers inside Tesla wanted to add robust driver monitoring systems to the company's cars to help make sure drivers safely use Autopilot, and Tesla even worked with suppliers on possible solutions, according to The Wall Street Journal. But those executives -- Elon Musk included -- reportedly rejected the idea out of worry that the options might not work well enough, could be expensive, and because drivers might become annoyed by an overly nagging system.
Tesla considered a few different types of monitoring: one that would track a driver's eyes using a camera and infrared sensors, and another that involved adding more sensors to the steering wheel to make sure that the driver is holding on. Both ideas would help let the car's system know if the driver has stopped paying attention, which could reduce the chance of an accident in situations where Autopilot disengages or is incapable of keeping the car from crashing. Musk later confirmed on Twitter that the eye tracking option was "rejected for being ineffective, not for cost."
Tesla considered a few different types of monitoring: one that would track a driver's eyes using a camera and infrared sensors, and another that involved adding more sensors to the steering wheel to make sure that the driver is holding on. Both ideas would help let the car's system know if the driver has stopped paying attention, which could reduce the chance of an accident in situations where Autopilot disengages or is incapable of keeping the car from crashing. Musk later confirmed on Twitter that the eye tracking option was "rejected for being ineffective, not for cost."
Not enough (Score:4, Funny)
Knowing that the driver is holding the steering wheel is not enough. You need to ascertain that all the muscular groups between the fingers and the spine are actively engaged and under tension. That is - fingers, palm, wrist, forearm, elbow, arm, shoulder... only if the muscules in all there areas are actively engaged you will ensure that the driver can take over. Eye tracking and a neural brain interface too to know what the driver is thinking...
Re:Not enough (Score:4, Insightful)
If it's supposed to be assist technology then why market it as "autopilot"?
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Because it sounds catchy and is technically accurate, even if it's misleading to people who aren't professional airline pilots.
Actual autopilot on aeroplanes is purely assistive - there to make flying the plane a bit easier and somewhat reduce the opportunities for human error - and does not in any way remove the need to have an actual pilot controlling the plane. Tesla's Autopilot serves the exact same role as an aeroplane's autopilot with the same limitation, but in a car, so I suppose they feel that they
Re:Not enough (Score:5, Interesting)
How about because it is an accurate description based upon past use. Autopilot in planes and ships, they will take you on the course set, they will not avoid shit or take complex routes, you set them and away they go, don't pay attention and a plane or ship or any other obstacle gets in your path and the AUTOPILOT will stay on course, bad fucking luck, well not luck, stupidity. So it is called autopilot because that is all it is, exactly as used and described for decades. People are now just choosing to reinterpret autopilot in another way now because 'hmm', vested interests and oh yeah, dick brains.
So the design choices not around sound design but design around idiots, how to make a device idiot proof, reliable and low cost. Want to make a Tesla vehicle idiot proof, then don't install the batteries and let the idiots admire the car in their drive way and pose with it in front of passers by.
How to make cars idiot proof, don't fucking let idiots drive them. So zero driver monitoring and instruction in their use is required during driver training and then they should be tested for knowledge on autopilot systems to get their drivers licence. Autopilot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] look it the fuck up. Do not confuse it with 'ROBOTIC' vehicles like the idiots that kill themselves with autopilot vehicles, I certainly hope you do not have one.
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It doesn't matter if it's an accurate description or not, it's what people believe that counts. People have heard that autopilot can fly a plane from take off to destination and they even saw a simulator land by itself on Mythbusters. This leads even quite intelligent people to argue for taking the pilots out of the cockpit.
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So you want a type rating for cars and a minimum of driving hours beyond which the driving license would be suspended?
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So the design choices not around sound design but design around idiots, how to make a device idiot proof, reliable and low cost. Want to make a Tesla vehicle idiot proof, then don't install the batteries and let the idiots admire the car in their drive way and pose with it in front of passers by.
If only there was a way to prevent installing the idiot... :P
The Geek Fallacy. (Score:2)
How about because it is an accurate description based upon past use. Autopilot in planes and ships, they will take you on the course set, they will not avoid shit or take complex routes, you set them and away they go
That describes the autopilot of a DC-3 or the Chris Craft cabin cruiser of 1954..
The problem is that when the general public thinks "autopilot" what they visualize is the automation and glass cockpit of a modern jumbo jet ---- which can be programmed for collision avoidance and complex routing.
You see this all the time on Slashdot. The geek quotes from the dictionary or tech manual and ignores common usage. It is when the geek turns to marketing that the habit becomes dangerous.
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If it's supposed to be assist technology then why market it as "autopilot"?
Because an actual autopilot is nothing more than an assist technology and ignorance is a reason to educate rather than a reason to appease.
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But all, when engaged, are expected to quite safely move the vehicle through the space it's traveling in and allow the pilot to take their hands off the controls and, for modestly short times (ten seconds or more), divert their attention to doing other things (such as looking at charts) with only occasional scans of the area (either visual or via radar etc). Tesla autopilot seems to require the driver's constant attention to avoid running into stationary objects that are routinely encountered on roads (gore
Re:Not enough (Score:5, Insightful)
Welcome back to hyperbole land.
The average US car goes 80 million miles between fatal accidents.
The average Tesla goes 320 million miles between fatal accidents.
1/3rd to 1/2 of all Tesla miles are on Autopilot.
Now let's say that all fatal Tesla accidents were on Autopilot. Let's ignore the fact most of the "The driver may have been on Autopilot!" crash reporting stories thusfar have ultimately turned out not to involve AP at all. Let's also ignore the fact that since AP driving is much more likely to involve highways and thus higher speeds, it would be expected to involve a higher share of the accidents. Let's just look at the numbers. Even with these assumptions, you would still be 33 to 100% safer driving a Tesla on AP than driving any other car. Acting like you take your attention off the road for a split second and it drives you into a post is just absurd.
What I'm wondering is how long this media hype train can last. I mean, no freaking duh the more vehicles Tesla makes the more people are going to die while driving one. Are they seriously going to keep breathlessly reporting on every last Tesla crash - always with the no-evidence-whatsoever speculation that AP might have been in use, and no retraction whatsoever in the cases where it wasn't? 40 thousand people die on US roads every year. 1.3 million die in them worldwide [un.org]. Seeing a Tesla on the roads is no longer a 1-in-a-million event; Tesla is quickly approaching 0,1% of all US vehicles on the road (nearing 200k). Believe it or not, like all vehicles, there will sometimes be Tesla crashes. And things like it being front page news that someone rear-ended a fire truck at 60 miles an hour as if there's something horribly wrong with Tesla, when the real story should be that someone hit a fire truck at 60 miles an hour and walked away with only a broken ankle, when such an accident should normally be fatal... I'm sorry, but Musk has a serious point about unfair, lopsided media coverage.
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Tesla is not an average car, hence your comparison is misleading and you would realise it yourself once you'd stop daydreaming about sucking Musk's dick. Seriously, your kind of fanboyism is bordering on fanatism.
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"The average US car goes 80 million miles between fatal accidents.
The average Tesla goes 320 million miles between fatal accidents.
1/3rd to 1/2 of all Tesla miles are on Autopilot."
This is not a good comparison. The average US car includes many older models, and many trucks and SUVs that are more likely to kill people than a sedan/crossover.
Do you have stats for similar cars? A quick Google only turned up stuff about the Volvo XC90 and Toyota Highlander having zero fatal accidents one year.
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The average driver does not drive a 30 year old car. The average driver drives a 10 year old car. Car safety records have not improved 4-fold in the past 10 years.
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Even if Teslas are safer than a comparable priced new BMW or Volvo or Mercedes because they have better survivability (due, for example, to a superior front end crumple zone because there's no need to accommodate an engine/transmission in that area in a Tesla), that's irrelevant to any judgement on Autopilot (for example, if it's technically appropriate or if its name is misleading).
Suppose a Tesla model had 10% the fatality rate per passenger mile of the "average" car. Musk then figured out they could decr
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You mean the financial interests I announced in my first point in this thread? You mean the financial interests that I didn't have until the shorts banking on this absurd hyperbole pushed the stock down to ~$250 last month, which was just too tempting for me to keep staying on the sidelines? In case you haven't noticed, I've been talking about Tesla on this site for a lot more than a month.
If you're so anti-Tesla and so utterly convinced it's going to fail, I assume you've shorted TSLA? If not, do you no
Re: Not enough (Score:2)
Also, do you not see the irony of someone criticizing someone for "transparency"... posting AC?
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Appears Tesla has better marketing than all those other brands you mentioned previously.
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I think he's arguing that we're supposed to automatically assume that Musk is lying about everything, so the joke's on us that we don't.
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Because they call it fucking AUTOPILOT. Auto, as in automatic, not manual, no human interaction needed, done for you. You claim it's well documented it's assist technology, and if you dig into the fine print I'm sure you're right. But it's also documented very well in the goddamn name that it's not assist technology, it's automatic. Not manual. Not assist. No human interaction needed. Done for you. Auto-fucking-pilot. Fine print disclaimers do not change that.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Your understanding of autopilot is incorrect. I believe the word you are looking for is autonomous, not automatic.
I think this is an issue of the common layperson assuming they know what autopilot means based on video games, movies, and TV. Autopilot in airplanes and ships is not a complete hands-off automatically do everything for you system. It is essentially the same as tying a rope to the steering wheel in your car and placing
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> How come no one is focusing on the personal responsibility of the driver?
Why would it be, if Musk is telling the truth? If "autopilot" is safer than a driver as Musk says, then intervening is more dangerous. Musk now needs to truly prove that autopilot is safer than a person driving a similar car with all of the lane assist, automatic emergency braking, Automatic pedestrian braking... that others manufactures are putting out, or take responsibility for these accidents and deaths. If autopilot is sav
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> but it ain't happening today. 10 years from now, maybe...
People are horrible at assessing risk, with 500,000 cars on the road even if it handles a few situations worse, if those situations are rare enough Tesla's on autopilot could still be much safer (or not I don't have the stats.) For example seat-belts and airbags have resulted in many serious injuries, and even a few deaths that wouldn't have happened otherwise. But they prevent many times more deaths in the majority of accidents. For
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-- M. Zuckerberg's notes on experiencing driver's education
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Tesla's system doesn't even use the driver's seat occupancy sensor to make sure there is actually someone sat behind the wheel.
The "autopilot assistant" trick of wedging fruit into the steering wheel to make it think you have hands on is well known too.
Elonz Nutz (Score:1)
Y'all need to get off Elonz Nutz.
The Shorts (Score:3, Informative)
Sort of ..... the markets rely on Musk raising capital. And Moody's bond rating of Tesla is based upon that.
What Musk discounted was that the "shorts" - the folks that short stocks - aren't people who wake up one day and think, "I hate this company."
They are mostly CPAs and lawyers and total accounting geeks. They examine financial documents like we read sci-fi books.
They discovered Enron's BS before it became publicly known and every other BS company.
They aren't "Haters". They are cold calculating bean
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Re:The Shorts (Score:4, Insightful)
The Model 3 has an MSRP of $35K. That's significantly more on the "affordable" end of the spectrum and is on par with other EVs available now.
The Model S and Model X are high cost to try and actually make money off of them. Pretty much the only reason Tesla has lasted this long, and gotten this far, is by aiming high and building brand reputation. There's just no margin in $35K vehicles and they'd never sell without the branding to back them up.
It was a good strategy and it's worked out brilliantly for them. Victims of their own success at this point.
=Smidge=
Re:The Shorts (Score:5, Informative)
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$35,000 for the base model. There's no lie there, but there's no fancy options either.
I mean if you're going to play that game, the Nissan Leaf actually has an MSRP of $41,057 (according to their website, highest trim level and all available options...)
=Smidge=
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The $35k is not available.
I know right, kind of like there are production issues or something going on.
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That "something else" is Tesla producing the more expensive options first in order to increase margins.
I like that word. "first". Your word, not mine. So what you're saying is there is a cheap model, it exists, and you can pre-order it, but it's just not coming off the production line due to the production issues they are facing.
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The Model S and Model X are high cost to try and actually make money off of them. Pretty much the only reason Tesla has lasted this long, and gotten this far, is by aiming high and building brand reputation. There's just no margin in $35K vehicles and they'd never sell without the branding to back them up.
You aren't quite correct here.
It's true that the price of the Model S and Model X is high to make a profit. However, it's not true that there is "no margin in $35K vehicles"... Tesla has spent big on fact
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> Only Tesla knows for sure, but experts are guessing that Tesla will make a 25% margin on the Model 3.
Keyword: "Will"
Maybe I didn't phrase it properly, but my point was it would have been impossible for them to start out with a low cost vehicle like the Model 3. They didn't have any ability to leverage economies of scale, and they didn't have a brand reputation to support them. As we both point out, the plan was always to aim high.
=Smidge=
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my point was it would have been impossible for them to start out with a low cost vehicle like the Model 3.
Oh, I see. I agree completely with you, then.
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The Model 3 has an MSRP of $60K.
Fixed that for you.
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So if I order a base model 3 today, when will it be delivered? Bear in mind that the waiting list is at least two years long and they haven't even started building the $35k version.
Also, Tesla is making the $65k version and is still operating at a loss. How are they going to then make a profit on a car that is substantially the same (i.e. costs nearly as much to make) but sells for $30k less?
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I still hope the shorts get hilariously fucked. Tesla isnt perfect, but it's better for planet earth than the other American car companies.
Tesla is NOT the only electric car company out there.
There is CURRENTLY - Nissan, Chevy, BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, .......
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Another Tesla battery fire [reuters.com] is making its way into the US news cycle. This one was fatal. The photos are astonishing; the whole car was slagged right down to the pavement [zerohedge.com] with the driver is inside. Not a good look.
Why does it work for Cadillac? (Score:5, Interesting)
I am loathe to link to Ars because its quality has gone down hill, but Cadillac's Supercruise is geofenced and uses eyetracking with rave reviews.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/02/the-cadillac-ct6-review-super-cruise-is-a-game-changer/
Car makers (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe Cadillac is made by people with experience making cars? And not some Silly Valley big talker?
As opposed to a Silly Slashdot Big Talker? (Score:1, Interesting)
Maybe Cadillac is made by people with experience making cars? And not some Silly Valley big talker?
When Cadillac launches a vehicle into space then you might have a point. Tesla has its issues, but to dismiss Elon Musk as a "Silly Valley big talker" is pretty ignornant--he's achieved quite a bit more than most entrepreneurs in and out of the valley. Doesn't mean he'll manage to displace (or even join) the automotive cartel, but he's certainly more than just a "big talker."
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And not some Silly Valley big talker?
You mean the Silly Valley big talker who created the company that is well on the way to being the first manufacturer to lose their EV credits when they ship too many EVs beating those "expereienced" people?
Yeah what a failure he is.
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"well on the way"
Call me when he gets his backlog of car orders filled. Call me again when Tesla stops bleeding money. Call me yet again when Tesla becomes more than a boutique/niche car manufacturer. If they can't hit at least Porsche yearly sales levels, they will never be considered anything else.
Is he a smart guy? Sure. The problems with Tesla take nothing away from the awesomness of SpaceX. Smart people make mistakes though. Tesla, like Apple, tries so hard to be "
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Call me when he gets his backlog of car orders filled.
I don't need to. I'm calling you out right now for the pathetic little twerp who shits on quite epic achievements of other people that you are.
Call me yet again when Tesla becomes more than a boutique/niche car manufacturer
This one fascinates me, given that this company has singlehandedly changed both the car and the power industry. I guess you'll keep shitting on them until they somehow become some major monopoly force, all the while completely ignoring that Tesla has achieved far more in their first 15 years than Ford ever did.
If they can't hit at least Porsche yearly sales levels, they will never be considered anything else.
Hit Porche where? Telsa delivered 50% more cars in their
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Give me a break... I'm not shitting on anything. I'm just pointing out that Teslas accomplishments are nowhere near as game changing as their fanboys would have us believe. Having a huge backlog and bleeding investor dollars is not shitting, they are facts. You seem to think they are irrelevant for some reason. Tesla or not, the industry was headed hybrid and later electric. Tesla may have sped things up a bit, but that was probably based on their over the top predictions for Model 3 deliveries. As f
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Give me a break... I'm not shitting on anything.
You realise the entire thread is in reply to "Silicon Valley Big Talker".
I'm just pointing out that Teslas accomplishments are nowhere near as game changing as their fanboys would have us believe.
And yet look at how much the industry has stood up and taken notice.
Having a huge backlog and bleeding investor dollars is not shitting, they are facts.
And it's also not relevant at all to a discussion of technology or changing a market. Which means someone is just looking for reasons to shit on an achievement.
Tesla or not, the industry was headed hybrid and later electric.
Horseshit and you know it. The entire industry basically laughed at Telsa as "impossible". A token effort was given to hybrid and electric didn't exist. It wasn't until Telsa well and truly proved it possible th
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>I am loathe to link to Ars because its quality has gone down hill
You're posting at former tech site Slashdot, that's now a bottom of the hill nerd-rage site.
Nagging system is what we need (Score:4, Interesting)
Eye tracking may or may not be reliable enough. But if eye tracking is not reliable, then nagware is definitely needed.
I feel this whole auto pilot, full self driving a big distraction from the core reason why I support Tesla.:
1. Make an electric that is affordable for at least 50% of the Americans.
2. Make a no negotiation, everyone pays the same price model for the cars, price transparency (secondary minor goal)
I wish Tesla would just let someone else develop this tech and license it.
Re:Nagging system is what we need (Score:4, Interesting)
You should definitely short them, please. (Score:2)
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Gentlemen, place your bets.
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"That's just like, your opinion, man."
I'm after autopilot. Electric and affordability aren't worth nearly as much to me as my time. There are many things I'd do differently for each X percent of the drive my car can conduct without me. The value of the car is literally measurable in dollars-per-hour times the hours per year I get to rearrange where and how I conduct my life. I can't afford a driver, but give me a car that lets me focus on work or lets me sleep, and a thousand unavailable desires are answ
Not news (Score:1)
So this information was thoughtfully reviewed, felt not to be in the driver's best interest / effective enough to integrate and wasn't. This doesn't seem like an interesting story. This isn't gross negligence, this is just decision making and business.
Re:Not news (Score:5, Interesting)
So this information was thoughtfully reviewed, felt not to be in the driver's best interest / effective enough to integrate and wasn't. This doesn't seem like an interesting story. This isn't gross negligence, this is just decision making and business.
Elon Musk is saying it was ineffective, but he also keeps calling the system an Autopilot.
This is just more evidence that Tesla is trying to have it both ways.
Informally they say:
"Look! It's a self-driving car! You just relax and it does everything!!"
Officially they say:
"It's basically just fancy cruise control, you need to watch it like a hawk every second it's engaged!!"
In practice they want and expect people to treat it as a self-driving car, but they need to tell them it's cruise-control for legal reasons.
That's why they ditched the eye tracking and other fancy tech that would keep people engaged. The "pay attention" safeguards are in-effective by design.
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Steering wheel feedback annoying (Score:4, Interesting)
I test drove a Nissan Leaf with ProDrive, which is a lane following assist tech. It uses steering wheel feedback to make sure you're paying attention, and it felt like I was constantly fighting the car to drive.
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I've used ProLilot in a Leaf and it was very relaxing and easy. The car seemed more confident and sure of itself than Autopilot when entering corners.
The other big difference is that it starts nagging you a few seconds after you take your hand of the wheel. Tesla lets you go for much longer.
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I test drove a Nissan Leaf with ProDrive, which is a lane following assist tech. It uses steering wheel feedback to make sure you're paying attention, and it felt like I was constantly fighting the car to drive.
Back off and let the car do its thing. If you're fighting it then you're not actually using the technology as intended. I am driving a 2018 model Nissan Qashqai this week and it's especially great on the highway. Rest your hand on the wheel and let the steering wheel do the work.
The eye tracker could have saved them. (Score:1)
All this bad PR lately revolving around Autopilot involved drivers who weren't paying attention. They really should have incorporated the eye tracker, that alone would have made a huge difference.
I see idiots in my city zipping around in their Teslas with their eyes in their lap all the time, even when there's kids in the back. It's infuriating.
In the mean time, I really think wanton police brutality needs to be legally sanctioned for people who are caught texting and driving, autopilot or no autopilot.
They Were Warned About This (Score:2)
Waiting for Complete Safety (Score:1)
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Tesla haters can continue to hate but there other factors, like investors, that need to be in play.
Yeah those Telsa haters! Reading the income statements, the cash flow statements and the balance sheet and asking, "Hey, what's going on with our money Musk?!"
Stupid haters asking stupid questions!! They should just STFU!!
What next, are they gonna ask something really stupid like, "Hey Musk, what about those 500,000 cars you promised to make by the end of 2018!"
Haters!! I really hate HATERS!!!!
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I seriously doubt you're a Tesla investor. I am. And like most Tesla investors, I'm very happy with the company's management under Musk.
Wait, the company is half a year behind the ridiculously-aggressive schedule they set for themselves? No way! Why didn't someone te
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Meanwhile, longs keep making money and shorts keep losing their shirt, cycle after cycle of doom-and-gloom short-selling, followed by none of the doom-and-gloom panning out and the company successfully continuing on its exponential growth pace. Who exactly needs to examine their underlying assumptions here?
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What I see is a battle of hype vs. misinformation from large market forces who have a great deal to lose when everyone realizes that except for long trips, electric cars are superior in every respect.
The fact is that the Tesla ca
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1) "I usually don't go to bed until after 3 AM, unless I'm covering shifts."
2) Stop stalking me. Seriously, there's something wrong with you.
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Here, a gift for you: link [preview.ibb.co]
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I figured it may be a troll/sarcastic.
I am a fan of Tesla, and want them to succeed, but I think they really oversold autopilot, and now it appears their engineers thought they did too.
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Every single time you enable autopilot it tells you to keep both hands on the wheel and be prepared to take control at any time. If you don't do that, it's your fault, not Tesla's.
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If you design a system thinking people will use it wrong, and then have a warning label, but an excessive amount of people use it wrong. Likely you'll be punished.
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There's not many other systems that use eye tracking, although there are a few; I'd like more specifics about what Musk was referring to. There are some weaknesses with eye tracking, like how it doesn't work with sunglasses on, but beyond that.... I just don't think periodic torquing of the wheel is enough (at least it's better than just a pressure sensor... since you can fall asleep while still putting pressure on the wheel).
On the other hand, I have trouble buying into the other claim that it was "too ex
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The Cadillac one works with sunglasses. There is a video on YouTube somewhere of a journalist trying it.