5.3M Cars Recalled Because 'Drivers May Not Be Able to Turn Off Cruise Control' (freep.com) 152
An anonymous reader quotes the Associated Press:
Fiat Chrysler is recalling more than 5.3 million vehicles in the U.S., Canada and elsewhere because in rare but terrifying circumstances, drivers may not be able to turn off the cruise control. The company is warning owners not to use cruise control until the cars, SUVs and trucks can be fixed with a software update. Fiat Chrysler says the condition can occur if the cruise control accelerates at the same time an electrical short-circuit happens. But the brakes are designed to overpower the engine and the vehicles could still be stopped...
In the complaint filed with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, an owner from Olathe, Kansas, said a 2017 Dodge Journey SUV rental vehicle was being driven about 70 miles per hour with the cruise control on when the windshield wipers came on by themselves and the throttle locked up. The owner, who was not identified in the agency's complaint database, wrote that the cruise control would not disengage by tapping the brakes or turning off the button. The driver was able to slam on the brakes and get the SUV to the side of the road. "It was still running at an engine speed to support 70 mph and fighting the brakes," the driver wrote. The engine stop button also wouldn't work, but the driver was able to halt the SUV and shift into park while the brakes "smoked significantly."
The recall "includes 15 Jeep, Dodge, Chrysler and Ram models from six model years" which have automatic transmissions and gas engines, according to the Associated Press -- 4.8 million in America, plus another 490,000 in Canada and "an undetermined number" in other countries.
You can check if your vehicle is affected by this (or any other) recall by entering its VIN number at NHTSA.gov. U.S. safety officials suggest checking whether your vehicle has been recalled "at least twice per year."
In the complaint filed with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, an owner from Olathe, Kansas, said a 2017 Dodge Journey SUV rental vehicle was being driven about 70 miles per hour with the cruise control on when the windshield wipers came on by themselves and the throttle locked up. The owner, who was not identified in the agency's complaint database, wrote that the cruise control would not disengage by tapping the brakes or turning off the button. The driver was able to slam on the brakes and get the SUV to the side of the road. "It was still running at an engine speed to support 70 mph and fighting the brakes," the driver wrote. The engine stop button also wouldn't work, but the driver was able to halt the SUV and shift into park while the brakes "smoked significantly."
The recall "includes 15 Jeep, Dodge, Chrysler and Ram models from six model years" which have automatic transmissions and gas engines, according to the Associated Press -- 4.8 million in America, plus another 490,000 in Canada and "an undetermined number" in other countries.
You can check if your vehicle is affected by this (or any other) recall by entering its VIN number at NHTSA.gov. U.S. safety officials suggest checking whether your vehicle has been recalled "at least twice per year."
Analogue Panic/Stop Button Wouldn't Help? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Analogue Panic/Stop Button Wouldn't Help? (Score:4, Interesting)
You also need: non-electronic steering and a functional (physical) handbrake. The latter is mandated by law iirc, not sure about the former?
You don't need non-electronic steering, but you do need a physical handbrake. Unfortunately, those are an endangered species. Most vehicles worth more than a couple of dollars now have an "EPB" or electric parking brake. My D2 Audi A8 has a real handbrake with a cable and a handle and everything, but the D3 has an EPB and you have to use a scan tool just to change the rear brakes (or hook up 12v directly to the EPB motor...)
Steer by wire can still steer even if the power goes completely dead, as long as the wires between the steering column and the steering rack are retained. There's a motor/generator at both ends. Steering will get a bit wonky, with the wheel position unrelated to the steering angle, but you can still steer. I think it's a dumb idea though, and I want a physical linkage between my wheel and the front wheels just on principle.
Also, you didn't mention brake-by-wire, but all current systems are actually a normal ABS system behind the scenes. In normal operation, there is no connection between your foot and the actual brakes; the pressure from the hydraulic system is read, translated into a number, and that number is used to apply the brakes on your behalf. In that way, the braking force can be moderated without any shuddering in the pedal. If the power to the ABS controller goes out, a solenoid valve fails open and makes a hydraulic connection directly to the brakes (which you operate manually) so that it also has a sane failure mode.
EPBs are still garbage, though.
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I wouldn't put too much trust in physical handbrakes. They are designed to prevent a stationary vehicle from moving, and that's it. They're not designed to arrest a powered, moving vehicle, and odds are pretty good that you'll burn it out before you stop your car in those situations.
So really, the actions are the same as they have been for the last 50 years of driving. Avoid trying to turn the engine off as a steering lock might engage. Disengage the transmission if possible, and apply the brakes, once, in
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The handbrake is good enough if you put your car on neutral. It isn’t great for your car but it is better then dying
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The handbrake is good enough if you put your car on neutral. It isn’t great for your car but it is better then dying
Often the hand brake is not powerful enough to brake the engine especially at lower gears and of course with an automatic, the car will be fighting you the whole way. With a manual transmission, at least you can engage the clutch or manually shift to a high gear limiting torque.
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Speaking of Audi and cruise control, you do know that unsubstantiated claims of unintended acceleration (and 60 Minutes) killed the early 80's 5000's. It was rumored to be associated with cruise control but a defect was never detected.
I used to buy them for nothing and run the wheels off of them. I was nothing to run one past 200k.
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EPBs are still garbage, though.
For what scenario? I find most Americas don't bother with a handbrake at all and if you drive a manual and leave the car in gear if it is flat many people don't use it either. It used to be required in manual cars without reverse rolling protection on hills, but that is a thing of the past now too. Frankly about the only use case for a handbrake in a modern automatic car is to change a tire.
It sure as hell doesn't have any scenario where it should be used while moving, except if you're goal is to go around
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I want a physical linkage between my wheel and the front wheels just on principle.
Is someone actually proposing otherwise? I have electric power steering but it still has a mechanical linkage...
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Is someone actually proposing otherwise? I have electric power steering but it still has a mechanical linkage...
Proposing, yes. Done it yet, no.
You can bet it's coming, though.
Re: Analogue Panic/Stop Button Wouldn't Help? (Score:1)
No, do NOT shut off the car.
Shift into neutral.
Re: Analogue Panic/Stop Button Wouldn't Help? (Score:2)
Why would they disable a feature which works as intended?
If the autopilot were somehow "failing on" and refusing to give control back to the driver, that would certainly require a recall. Have there been any such cases? Or are you just comparing two completely different things because you see it as another opportunity to shit on someone you have an irrational hatred for?
Really.... (Score:1)
Having people impaled by the steering shaft on frontal collisions isn't pretty so most cars have drive by wire these days. ...
Uhhhh, really....
First, people haven't been being "impaled" by the steering column since probably before an Anonymous Coward was born. Steering columns have been required by law to be collapsible since 1968. So that isn't "a thing".
And "most have drive by wire" is just a stupid claim as the numbers aren't even close. There are a lot more "throttle by wire" cars but it still hasn't reached the level of "most" but it will probably happen. (And we will see most cars becoming 100% disposable after 10 to 12 ye
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A nice red plastic button that when hit, disengages all software/electronics that might take control away from you, and either kills the engine completely as well, or lets you take full-manual control of everything?
So what are we talking about here: Loss of hydraulic assisted breaking. Loss of power steering. Loss of ABS and traction control. Cutting a lot of these services while moving is incredibly dangerous as anyone who's lost a utility belt while driving will understand.
Given the extremely low number of situations in which software in cars seems to do anything that attempts to overrule the driver and the fact that these scenarios are actively recalled and fixed at large expense to the manufacturer I think you hav
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It is called shifting your car into neutral.
I am surprised that so many people who tell scarry stories about cruise control or sudden acceleration have stories like the the movie Speed 2 expect it is in a car and not a boat. Where all they need to do is put the car in neutral and apply the emergency break.
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Where all they need to do is put the car in neutral and apply the emergency break.
Which is exactly what the big red button should do.
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It is called shifting your car into neutral.
I am surprised that so many people who tell scarry stories about cruise control or sudden acceleration have stories like the the movie Speed 2 expect it is in a car and not a boat. Where all they need to do is put the car in neutral and apply the emergency break.
They should be able to shift into neutral and apply the service brake. The "emergency brake" (parking brake) would be a last ditch effort in case of a hydraulic failure. You'll get more braking effort standing on the service brake, even if the vacuum assist is depleted.
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A nice red plastic button that when hit, disengages all software/electronics that might take control away from you, and either kills the engine completely as well, or lets you take full-manual control of everything?
If only there was some type of manual control like a key switch.
Of course, a key switch is problematical because it activates the steering lock rendering the vehicle unmaneuverable thanks to car companies and the government. I have been in that situation and it is better to let the car run away and crash because at least you can choose where. How dumb is that?
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Would the big red button just send a signal over the CAN bus? If so, I guess a virus can just disable that?
Race cars often have to have a big red switch, button, or something on the outside of the vehicle which disables the electrical system. And it's just a physical cut. It's common for there to also be a big red plastic key or button inside the cockpit that can cut the hot connection. On a street car, I guess you'd have to include a big relay rather than using a switch for practical reasons. I think it's a great idea, but it would cost a fair bit of money so you'd have to force automakers into it.
Re: Analogue Panic/Stop Button Wouldn't Help? (Score:2)
The red button on my motorcycle just cuts power to the ignition coils. Itâ(TM)s a simple concept. These overly electronic cars really need the same thing.
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and to force a power off condition, the button must be held for 3-5 seconds.
These days, there are new guidelines, which are that a forced power off condition must occur if the button is held for 0.5 seconds, or pushed 3 times within 3 seconds.
I always thought with the shift to ATX style power supplies, holding down the power button for 3-5 seconds to force power off was extremely annoying. Now in a car it can be extremely dangerous!
Re: Analogue Panic/Stop Button Wouldn't Help? (Score:4, Informative)
There is an off position on many ignition locks that doesn't lock the steering.
From locked position, one click unlocks the wheel. Next click is the on position. Turn past on to engage the starter.
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The problem is that in a panic, and without looking at it, it's easy to go one stop too far. I know someone who did it (freewheeling down a hill, stupid sod) but it was a while back. Maybe modern cars have something to prevent this, but then *that* can go mental so you're back to square one.
It's not exactly something you practice every day either.
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If that goes mental, just turn the key back to unlock or on. Since you've already killed the engine, either position will do.
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If that goes mental, just turn the key back to unlock or on. Since you've already killed the engine, either position will do.
Except now the vehicle travel is pushing on the steering which prevents the key from being turned.
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Except it doesn't. If the wheel is hard against the lock, turn it the other way and the lock will release. But in general, if you're in a situation like the man in TFA, do whet he did to come to a stop (brake against the engine while pulling over), then switch the car off. At that point, there is no vehicle travel and steering locked is not an issue.
It beats having to put it in park or neutral and let the engine rev to the limiter until it runs out of gas (or you disconnect the battery if you have the tools
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Except it doesn't. If the wheel is hard against the lock, turn it the other way and the lock will release. But in general, if you're in a situation like the man in TFA, do whet he did to come to a stop (brake against the engine while pulling over), then switch the car off. At that point, there is no vehicle travel and steering locked is not an issue.
I have driven multiple cars where this was the case. Sure the solution is to force the wheel the other way but during an emergency? It is not easy to force oneself to turn the wheel in the direction that is already leading you off of the road although I managed it.
But the point is to have a mechanism that physically powers the car down. Old style ignition locks have that intrinsically. Cars with a start button need something. It could also be an emergency switch or link you can pull out, but it needs to be something that doesn't depend on a program deciding that the user signaled to shut off.
I agree but the only cars I have driven which support this without the steering wheel lock problem are old Ford Mustangs which have the key on the dash.
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There is an off position on many ignition locks that doesn't lock the steering.
Even if there isn't, nothing stops you from turning the key all the way to the Lock position (stopping the engine) and then immediately back to the On position (freeing the steering lock before it becomes an issue). That's probably faster than carefully counting the key positions, too.
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There is an off position on many ignition locks that doesn't lock the steering.
Even if there isn't, nothing stops you from turning the key all the way to the Lock position (stopping the engine) and then immediately back to the On position (freeing the steering lock before it becomes an issue). That's probably faster than carefully counting the key positions, too.
That is what I thought before I crashed. Unfortunately the force on the steering from the car moving prevents the key from being turned. Now you have to force the wheel in the opposite direction before the key is released.
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Fair point. I was thinking of occasions where I'd stalled the car, but that's usually when taking off, not at highway speeds.
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There is an off position on many ignition locks that doesn't lock the steering.
From locked position, one click unlocks the wheel. Next click is the on position. Turn past on to engage the starter.
There are two problems with this:
1. There may not be an off position which does not lock the wheel.
2. Even if there is an off position which does not lock the wheel, it requires fine muscle control which is one of the first things to go in an emergency.
I have been in this position before and shutting off the engine just resulted in a crash with no steering or brakes. Fuck the car makers and fuck the government; this is their collective ongoing fault for decades but hey, it is not their lives they are riski
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Not exactly FINE control, just not panic. If you overshoot, just turn it back. It requires no more calmness than press and hold the start button for 3 seconds, and unlike the start button, cannot fail.
You do have brakes when you shut the engine off. You even have power assist for the first pump or so before the booster bleeds down.
I have actually had the throttle stick on a car before, and it wes before cars had rev limiters. That is, put it in neutral, floor it and BOOM! I was able to get it pulled over an
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Not exactly FINE control, just not panic. If you overshoot, just turn it back. It requires no more calmness than press and hold the start button for 3 seconds, and unlike the start button, cannot fail.
Practicing calm while the steering is locked and the vehicle is angling off of the road into a ditch or down a mountain side is not a solution to be relied on. Why not just add the instruction "do no crash car" to the instruction manual and be done for it? Or they could decouple the steering wheel lock from the ignition key ... what a concept.
You do have brakes when you shut the engine off. You even have power assist for the first pump or so before the booster bleeds down.
Try driving my relatively new GMC pickup. Yes, it has power assist brakes for the first pump when the vacuum reservoir is charged. After that, literally standing o
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Apparently, your GMC has exceptionally bad design in the brakes. In most vehicles, I would say 50 pounds will do the job. If you can't apply 50 pounds, you can't stand up. Admittedly, that could be a problem for some people (who, indeed, can't stand up), but they can use the hand brake to assist them.
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Plus most cars I've ever driven will only lock the steering when you remove the key.
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Go into neutral and turn off the car?
Sounded like the ignition on/off button was not responsive. Plus, on many vehicles, if you turn it off you lose power steering and brakes. Or worse, the steering column locks.
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There is no vehicle you loose brakes on if you kill the engine. You just loose power steering, which is a given as that is engine driven.
Off button only vehicles should definitely be illegal. On top of that there should be a mandate for fuel cut off valves, ones that requires electricity to open, especially on any diesel vehicle.
And. You lose power steering and power brakes. When the vacuum goes so do your power brakes and it becomes Very very hard to stop many types of vehicles.
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so what, not hard to steer or stop a car when the power system fails unless a person is a totally out of shape pansy.
jeez, I've had to do without power steering twice, and went a whole day before repair. Could drive parallel parked, etc. with no problem.
eat less and exercise!
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Runaway Car (Score:3)
How much faith do I have in 'Fiat' now?! Scary stuff like this is why I bought a Toyota. /s
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Yeah good call: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
You know what Fiat stands for fix it again tony! (Score:3)
fix it again tony
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You americans and your silly automatic transmissions
Start Trek Phasors and Proton Torpedoes could not kill Checkov, but a bunch of idiots at fiat can kill him with a transmission.
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In German, I have heard:
"Fehler in allen Teilen" (Faults in all parts)
Or, in English, my personal favorite:
"Fucking Italian Automotive Trash"
Heaven in Europe is where:
- the police are British
- the lovers French
- the mechanics German
- the chefs Italian
and it is all organized by the Swiss.
Hell in Europe is where:
- the police are German
- the lovers Swiss
- the mechanics Italian
- the chefs British
and it is all organized by the French.
When Fiat bought Chrysler, I read in an article t
Re: You know what Fiat stands for fix it again ton (Score:1)
Chrysler was actually worse before Fiat bought it. It was always bad, even to American standards. Fiat isn't great, but their cars used to be good value for money, easy to repair and parts are cheap. First generation Pandas are absolutely everywhere in Italy. I wouldn't trust them with anything complicated, though, and they lacked funds to remain competitive with in the past twenty years or so, so the Fiat brand is slowly dying, especially outside of Italy.
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Man that is outdated. Have you driven a modern German car? Of course not, no one drives a modern German car, they sit in the tow truck up front. I used to have incredible respect for German engineering. Emphasis on the past tense.
BMW - Bayerische Mist Wagen (Bavarian Shit Wagon)
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Have you driven a modern German car?
I currently own a Mercedes and previously owned another Mercedes and a VW. I've never had any problems with them.
I grew up with a '65 Mercury Monterrey . . . with a notch back and sliding rear window! That thing simply refused to die. My parents gave it to me, and I finally sold it for $100 in 1985. Still running, but a serious gas guzzler.
On the other hand . . . my parents bought a Chevy Impala in the 70's, which seemed to have rolled off the assembly line already broken.
After years of driving Germa
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After years of driving German cars, when I drive an American car, the steering and seats seem "mushy".
Oh I agree with you. I didn't say American cars were any better. In fact the German cars are still wonderfully engineered, handle well, and are a dream to drive. The modern ones just unfortunately don't deserve their reputation as reliable one little bit. It used to be a tossup between German an Japanese. Now it's not even a contest anymore.
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The modern ones just unfortunately don't deserve their reputation as reliable one little bit.
And replacement parts cost a fucking fortune.
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I take it you don't live in Europe? :-)
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The interior had this rubber coating that peeled off after a few years and made the car look like it had leprosy. The crank position sensor was specially designed to die in engine heat so it went out about every 50k miles. The EGR hoses turned to a brittle mess in engine heat as well. The AC blower fan controller died about that often as well. The power seat switch post was very fragile and in a spot where it'd be bumped getting the car. The switch is fine, this is just a 10 cent plastic
More computers in cars! (Score:3)
We need more computers and code in cars! And make all systems internet-connected so that they become as safe as other IoT devices. For sure programmers working for the transport industry are way more competent than in any other field, and source code unavailability ensures security.
Re:Build it with Agile! (Score:3)
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to make a paragraph break in /.
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Remember:
to make a paragraph break in /.
Or just enable "plain old text" in Username-account-posting so you can use Enter like a normal person.
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I recently got a used 2013 T&C van, and had some CANBUS electrical problems with it. First, the instrument cluster died last fall, then last month I had problems with a wire and/or connector that went bad. Hopefully it's really truly fixed this time.
The wipers turning on is apparently one of the symptoms of a CANBUS failure in Chrysler. When information from the bus disappears, it seems that other parts of the system make assumptions about the input state. One of those assumptions is that the wiper swi
You need a purely physical- non software kill sw. (Score:1)
They already had one person die from cruise control and gear shifting failing.
At this point, they need a physical object that can put the car into neutral (so you still have steering and power) and then another one that will kill the engine- easiest way might be a physical switch for the gasline. Some trucks have them now to swap between tanks. Just switch off the fuel.
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Absolutely. You could have a clutch to the side which simply disengaged the engine from the transmission and wasn't intended for shifting gears.
You couldn't remove automatic transmission tho. Under 3% of people buy "standard" vehicles.
The automatic transmissions are usually physically connected. Making them "fly by wire" is about as bad as a "fly by wire" on/off button that is ignored.
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Only when the shift lever is physically connected to the transmission. In some cars today, it isn't.
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If that's not a Beatles lyric, it should be.
Electronics (Score:5, Interesting)
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Shift into neutral. If your transmission has only electronic controls, then you really do not ever have control of your car.
From what I've read, the ZF 8 speed transmission has only an electronically-controlled limp home mode. That means that if the TCM goes completely tits up (or its power supply does) then you're done. And it's in like, practically everything out there now. I would imagine this applies to anything newer than that, more or less. It lets them eliminate the linkage, but it also eliminates a meaningful limp mode.
My 1998 Audi A8 Quattro has an unbelievably fragile transmission (ZF5HP42A) but at least it has an actu
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Now get off my lawn!
May I interest you in an electric fence?
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Citation needed.
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My solution to make the best of a bad situation is only to have manual transmission cars. I have read about too many incidents where automatic transmissions, whether true automatic transmissions or electronic manual transmissions, fail in unsafe ways preventing control by the operator.
At least with a manual clutch and manual shift, both have to fail to prevent disengaging the drive wheels.
You need a clutch! (Score:1)
It's a manually operated fail-safe device to disconnect the engine from the transmission (and the wheels).
I've got one - you should get one on your next car.
Who am I kidding, almost nobody (in the USA) knows how to drive stick shift these days.
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And a lot more who CAN just don't want to. It's been a while since a human driver could actually make better shifting decisions than an automatic other than when racing.
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Not actually. In racing, shifting with knowledge of the driver's intention matters since fractional seconds matter. If you're driving like that in traffic, you deserve to lose your license.
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Not really. Racers choose their gear based on their need for instant acceleration. When they do that, they trade a little fuel economy for the ability to overtake with no delay.
If you're doing that in traffic, you're a danger to yourself and others.
Beyond that, more and more automatics actually have a CVT these days. Good luck adding enough gears to a manual to approximate that.
Reassuring (Score:2)
But the brakes are designed to overpower the engine and the vehicles could still be stopped...
Very reassuring although this must hurt braking distance a bit...
Simple (Score:5, Funny)
The control is on the center console user interface. Just navigate to:
Systems | Controls | Extended Functions | Speed | Basic | Cruise Mode
and select 'OFF'. When Clippy pops up and asks "It appears that you are attempting to take manual control of your vehicle. This is not recommended. Do you want assistance?" Select 'NO' (Do not want assistance) and then 'YES' (take manual control).
Accept the liability terms on the popup page by clicking 'I Accept'. And now you can drive your car.
I'm done with Jeep (Score:1)
Just traded in one Jeep Cherokee that would die in traffic and refuse to start. No fucks were given by Chrysler to fix it. The other has had continuous recalls since I bought it.
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Just traded in one Jeep Cherokee that would die in traffic and refuse to start. No fucks were given by Chrysler to fix it. The other has had continuous recalls since I bought it.
FCA is circling the bowl. RAM Promaster vans are shit (you can get one with half the miles of a sprinter for half the money), literally everything they make is horribly unreliable, the only vehicles keeping them afloat are the most expensive muscle cars and Jeeps. And they're screwing with the Jeeps. They have these batshit crazy shifter handles and whatnot when they actually used to make cars with a better yet still odd interface back in the sixties, with push-button transmissions. When you selected a gear
Cars These Days (Score:1)
Put it in neutral? (Score:1)
Happened to me (Score:1)
On a 1999 Jeep. Cruise got stuck, nothing would clear it. Once I got it stopped, I clipped the cruise control throttle cable under the hood.
Scary stuff.
happened in France: more noise than danger, but... (Score:2)
A couple of years ago the news here went on full of the story of a man calling the police while on the highway in order to have the next toll barrage cleared for him, because his cruise control was locked on full speed.
There was a lot of roar in the news, but little reality in the end, as obviously on any vehicle the brake is far more powerful than the motor (specially when on high gear), so the guy could trivially stop pressing the brake pedal.
But, he was an old man, and definitely not prepared to the unus
Another reason manuals are better (Score:2)
Redneck repair (Score:2)
AFAIK, cruise control works because there's an extra throttle cable leading to the servo. So ya' just wire an este's model rocket igniter and an M-80 next it. Put a nice little switch on the dash. Anything goes wrong, blow that sucker. Just kidding of course.