Game Company Receives Complaints About Bad Example Set By '%FEMALENAME' (kotaku.com) 577
ArenaNet narrative designer Jessica Price was fired last week after she accused a Twitter user of "mansplaining", and adding later "Don't expect me to pretend to like you here." (Her employer characterized this as "attacks on the community.")
So what happened in the week that followed? An anonymous reader writes: A Reddit user indicated he'd been speaking satirically when he posted that "We can probably fire anyone on the GW2 dev team as long we make a big enough stink," and expressed surprise later that no one had disagreed with him. But another female developer told Kotaku she saw a real call to action on 4chan, and that it was followed by angry letters to the game studio she freelances for calling for her firing too, complaining their games had declined since she was hired (along with another woman). The letters also complained her Twitter account set "a bad example for the letter-writer's children, who supposedly play this game." The company's CEO received "a three-digit number's" worth of angry letters -- though "Fifty or so of them glitched out with a lot of variables exposed, including %FEMALENAME."
"A deeper look at the names and emails associated with the letters went to Facebook bot profiles and people whose profiles indicated associations with Gamergate or 4chan," reports Kotaku -- and Brianna Wu made a similar charge on Twitter last week, citing research by a team of volunteers. "The overwhelming majority of people harassing Jessica Price today on Twitter are bots and sock puppets. These are throwaway accounts that are used as toys. Almost no one claiming to be upset is an established, normal Twitter user." The Verge reports that Wu monitored Jessica Price's account, and found harassment "as bad as she's ever seen," blocking at least 600 different accounts.
Another female narrative designer at Arkane Studios says her employer was messaged with a complaint that she'd "verbally abused" a Twitter user -- and discovered a (since-deleted) online petition calling for her firing. And an angry message was also sent to Opaque Space (collaborating with NASA on VR games and training), complaining the company should take responsibility for the "man hating ideals...spread through social media accounts" by their game design lead. "I know MANY people like me, especially women, who have frequent experience with people calling for their employers to fire them for speaking up, speaking out," she posted on Twitter.
The latest furor began with an accusation of mansplaining which a YouTube streamer defended as "my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion", calling it "disheartening" that Jessica Price didn't "correct me in my false assumptions."
So what happened in the week that followed? An anonymous reader writes: A Reddit user indicated he'd been speaking satirically when he posted that "We can probably fire anyone on the GW2 dev team as long we make a big enough stink," and expressed surprise later that no one had disagreed with him. But another female developer told Kotaku she saw a real call to action on 4chan, and that it was followed by angry letters to the game studio she freelances for calling for her firing too, complaining their games had declined since she was hired (along with another woman). The letters also complained her Twitter account set "a bad example for the letter-writer's children, who supposedly play this game." The company's CEO received "a three-digit number's" worth of angry letters -- though "Fifty or so of them glitched out with a lot of variables exposed, including %FEMALENAME."
"A deeper look at the names and emails associated with the letters went to Facebook bot profiles and people whose profiles indicated associations with Gamergate or 4chan," reports Kotaku -- and Brianna Wu made a similar charge on Twitter last week, citing research by a team of volunteers. "The overwhelming majority of people harassing Jessica Price today on Twitter are bots and sock puppets. These are throwaway accounts that are used as toys. Almost no one claiming to be upset is an established, normal Twitter user." The Verge reports that Wu monitored Jessica Price's account, and found harassment "as bad as she's ever seen," blocking at least 600 different accounts.
Another female narrative designer at Arkane Studios says her employer was messaged with a complaint that she'd "verbally abused" a Twitter user -- and discovered a (since-deleted) online petition calling for her firing. And an angry message was also sent to Opaque Space (collaborating with NASA on VR games and training), complaining the company should take responsibility for the "man hating ideals...spread through social media accounts" by their game design lead. "I know MANY people like me, especially women, who have frequent experience with people calling for their employers to fire them for speaking up, speaking out," she posted on Twitter.
The latest furor began with an accusation of mansplaining which a YouTube streamer defended as "my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion", calling it "disheartening" that Jessica Price didn't "correct me in my false assumptions."
irony (Score:5, Funny)
I know MANY people like me, especially women, who have frequent experience with people calling for their employers to fire them for speaking up, speaking out
Yeah, #metoo
Re: (Score:2)
Perhaps you could share your experience? The more we know, the better we can deal with it.
Perhaps a Wikipedia entry or a site that employers can be directed to which explains this problem could be created, so that if you are a victim you can show your boss and hopefully get the matter resolved.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Please don't.
Slashdot is one of the few sites that doesn't delete unwanted posts. That means we get spam, but it also means we don't have posts that are deemed 'unwanted' simply because they are confronting.
None of these posts appear at +1. Most are modded to -1. Set your viewing threshhold to 0 or +1 and they will disappear. So will a lot of other A/C posts, like yours, but then, perhaps you should take advantage of the systems already in place, rather than calling for a campaign to modify an existing syst
Re: irony (Score:5, Informative)
I own a game company.
We get this constantly from players, and it has nothing to do with the sex of the developers. If anything the men get it worse.
I know that's an uncomfortable truth for you, but it's not anecdotal. It's industry-wide.
Re: irony (Score:4, Insightful)
Odds are they're posting AC because people like you would ramp up the harassment if given some idea where to go.
Honestly, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if a major factor in why men might have it worse is because of douchebags like you, who apparently believe that it's A-OK if men get harassed--which is the message you send when you dismiss their complaints casually, and yes, that can on its own make it worse. Harassment is bad, and if you believe your target and/or motives somehow justify it, you are part of the problem.
Seriously, this sort of thing is part of why I'm not at all comfortable with the anti-gamergate side. What is wrong with you people, that you can't even bring yourselves to say things like "Anybody can be harassed and harassment is wrong"? That shouldn't be controversial, yet it is getting treated like it not only is controversial but is offensive.
Re: irony (Score:5, Insightful)
What is wrong with you people, that you can't even bring yourselves to say things like "Anybody can be harassed and harassment is wrong"?
... Well I'm not a fan of the anti-gamergaters either, but this question is pretty easy to answer: it's deflection. If someone says, "Look, this group in particular is being singled out and harassed." and you respond, "Hm, yes harassment is bad. Before we do anything else, let's all say that harassment is bad." then you are deflecting from their complaint by changing the topic to something which they hadn't really been discussing. The other person was not talking about harassment being bad, there was an implication that we all already agreed on that point, the other person was talking about this particular group being singled out.
It's very similar to the "all lives matter" deflection that some people use against the Black Lives Matter protestors. The point of the phrase "black lives matter" is not the concept that lives should matter or that black people have lives. The phrase assumes that we all agree on those points already and so is talking about something else.
Re: (Score:3)
What is wrong with you people, that you can't even bring yourselves to say things like "Anybody can be harassed and harassment is wrong"?
... Well I'm not a fan of the anti-gamergaters either, but this question is pretty easy to answer: it's deflection. If someone says, "Look, this group in particular is being singled out and harassed." and you respond, "Hm, yes harassment is bad. Before we do anything else, let's all say that harassment is bad." then you are deflecting from their complaint by changing the topic to something which they hadn't really been discussing. The other person was not talking about harassment being bad, there was an implication that we all already agreed on that point, the other person was talking about this particular group being singled out.
If you think it's deflecting, you missed some of what was going on. The point here is that establishing basic things like that--such as agreeing that the behavior being discussed is unacceptable--is important, especially given that some of the anti-gamergaters decided to say legitimately disturbing things like that sexual exploitation is A-OK if the woman does not complain about it. I'm sorry, but by definition, any exchange of good review for sex or a job for sex is sexual exploitation, sexual harassment
Re: (Score:3)
Given men are more likely to be assaulted than women, your entire point is fucking idiocy.
Anyway, aren't women meant to be strong and empowered? Sorry but if you can't take criticism then you're not very strong.
You must be quite the charmer with the ladies.
Re: (Score:3)
I treat them as capable adults. You should try it some time.
Treating folks equally as adults, and perhaps, based on their abilities and performance regardless of gender, tribal identification, or worship preference.... that's profiling bro, and it will not be tolerated.
Re: irony (Score:4, Informative)
Perhaps you could share your experience? The more we know, the better we can deal with it.
Sure, would you like that list alphabetical, or in chronological order?
It's going to take me a while to type up an entire encyclopaedia anyway, so in the meantime here's a little primer for you:
https://www.insidehighered.com... [insidehighered.com]
Re: irony (Score:3, Interesting)
I think you need to go back and re-read my original comment. I never made any reference to my personal experiences.
Aside from that, I'm always puzzled by women's tendency to focus on personal anecdotes. What exactly could my personal story tell you which a link to others like it could not? Does the slight degree of closeness make it more emotionally appealing? Do you equate that with somehow being more persuasive?
Re: irony (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm just as puzzled that you'd use the #metoo hashtag and think that anyone would interpret it any other way. The whole point of the hashtag is to share your own experiences.
Re: irony (Score:4, Insightful)
You used the #metoo hashtag. You don't seem to have a personal experience.
What kind of experience? Have I been harassed? Of course; who the fuck hasn't. Have I had random internet dipshits try to dox me and get me fired? They didn't succeed, but yeah, quite a few have tried. Have I been sexually assaulted? Absolutely. Only ever by women, too; the few homosexual men who have come on to me over the years were much less presumptuous and understood the word "no" much better than the entitled hetero twats that have tried it.
In the past you have demanded that women make credible and specific accusations, but now when politely asked refuse to provide one of your own.
Except I'm not making accusations. I have no interest in making a fucking federal case out of it. Social Justice Warriors freak out when someone grabs your ass; when it happens to men we just laugh it off. Why would I try to ruin some chicks life just because she was a bit drunk and got grabby? Or because she was horny and misread the signals? Unlike twitters Social Junkie Whales I generally care about people. I might be a dick to you in conversation here but if we happened to meet up in real life and you made an off-color joke or dropped your pants in front of me I wouldn't flip out and try to get you fired. I would either laugh or tell you I'm not interested, and we would move on with our lives. I get no benefit from trying to ruin you; on the contrary, I would be contributing to a toxic culture which insists that every faux pas is an unforgivable crime. I don't want to live in that kind of world so I try not to help create it.
Ah the very least, you seem to be acting in bad faith and got very defensive when I tried to engage with you. Why are you acting this way?
Look, for a Social Junkpile Wanker, you're not all that bad. I mean you're still clearly delusional, looking to be offended, completely unwilling to consider any contrary opinion, and eager to spin things to suit your needs ... but compared to the rest you're actually kinda alright. So do you think that, for once in your Slashdot career, you could stop assuming that people who are being completely honest with you are part of some grand conspiracy to deceive you into who-knows-what? Maybe apply the principle of charity? I know it's hard, but it's worth a try. You might even have a decent conversation for a change.
"the left" (Score:5, Insightful)
These people are "the left" as much as the kkk is "the right".
Nobody likes these people and all her friends who also get harassment are fellow internet warriors.
Re:irony (Score:5, Interesting)
Personally, I think the vast majority of the time these online petitions to get people fired are nothing more than bullying, coercive harassment.
But I perceive a problem in the Jessica Price case.
Jessica's problem was that she was using Twitter basically as an extension of her work life. She -- apparently constantly -- tweeted to people she knew to be gamers about her work designing games.
In a case like that, yeah, I can see that a backlash on Twitter could lash all the way back to her employer.
But as I said, most cases aren't like that. Generally speaking, unless someone is tweeting about their own criminal behavior or things that are really, grossly unethical, I don't think social media should have any impact on one's work or professional life.
Re: irony (Score:3)
Don't misunderstand me. I don't discredit your experience.
Don't worry about it. If you had read the rest of my comments you'd see that I'm not exactly a snowflake. And I'm pretty sure you fundamentally misunderstood my position.
But I perceive a problem in the Jessica Price case.
Jessica's problem was that she was using Twitter basically as an extension of her work life. She -- apparently constantly -- tweeted to people she knew to be gamers about her work designing games.
In a case like that, yeah, I can see that a backlash on Twitter could lash all the way back to her employer.
But as I said, most cases aren't like that. Generally speaking, unless someone is tweeting about their own criminal behavior or things that are really, grossly unethical, I don't think social media should have any impact on one's work or professional life.
I agree 100% with everything you said, and wish I could mod you up. For my part, I want to give her even more benefit-of-the-doubt just because I realize that, thanks to my dislike for her politics, I'm inherently inclined to judge her more harshly. As you say, if she did regularly mix work PR with her personal feed, that would be the o
Re: It's not real life! Stop giving a fuck! (Score:5, Insightful)
Anything that is merely being said, and not experienced by my own senses, is not real life. All it does, is make you feel bad, about something that is so far out of your control, that you literally cannot even tell if it is real.
Then I noticed, how much of it actually completely does not exist in my world.
All those "wars"...
raging feminist vs neckbears or whatever
americans vs russians
refugees vs nazis
christians vs muslims
you name it.
They were just not happening in *real life*.
This is why the US military forced German civilians to bury bodies in concentration camps after WW2. So that they could experience it with their own senses. It seems that, prior to that, they were all big fans of your philosophy.
Re: It's not real life! Stop giving a fuck! (Score:5, Insightful)
It's great that you've managed to reduce massive numbers of humanity into broad caricatures which you can hate unreservedly. Such attitudes never turn out badly.
Re: (Score:3)
Kinda. My great-aunt was a German Red Cross nurse during WW2, and had occasion to help one or two Jews who were being transported in trains to concentration camps. She knew they were being rounded and were being taken to a prison somewhere, but she didn't know of what was being done to them. From her perspective they were all POWs, and very hungry and sick, but that was it.
I should point out her family was anti-Nazi. Her father, my great-great-father, had ordered her to enter the Red Cross so that she would
Re: (Score:3)
I understand where you're coming from, but I'd wager that far more knew than didn't.
I think people knew Jews and other people were being imprisoned by the government, and many were most certainly in favor of this given how prevalent antisemitism was. What I don't think they knew, though, was that some of the concentration camps those prisoners were being sent to were actually extermination camps. Given most concentration camps were "just" that, not having a focus on extermination, that also meant that, while those living near them knew of them, and of how badly prisoners were treated, they
Re: It's not real life! Stop giving a fuck! (Score:2)
Sure, like Buddhists in Myanmar, Jews in the West Bank, and Christian terrorists in the U.S., religion can lead to bad outcomes. The thing is, it's universal, so why would you blame religion unless you are an ignorant piece of shit?
Re: irony (Score:2)
Well if you insist ...
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. (Score:4, Insightful)
Is anyone really surprised that identity politics only lead to more and broader generalized hatred?
Re:Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. (Score:4, Insightful)
When a woman uses "mansplaining" she converts it into a political statement.
I don't care what the 4chan trolls do, she's shown to be your usual sexist feminazi.
Re:Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. (Score:4, Interesting)
10 years ago, there were just developers. ... and now it just backfires.
now there are developers and female developers.
They tried to make "being a woman" a political statement and a political stance... and they succeeded.
they made "dongle jokes" a harassment... and fired developers for that.
they made games their echo chambers for their political views... and they succeeded.
do you know why? because when you deal with someone who doesn't care about politics, e.g. gamers, and they mess with their lives, e.g. games, they are going to use every method to attack you, e.g. politically incorrect practices.
I can't say that I don't like it. I am loving it.
Re:Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
People shouldn't have to hide their nature just to avoid harassment or discrimination online.
Beyond the moral argument, many people build an online persona to further their careers or build a reputation. Most of the people contributing to Linux, for example, use their real names and are often doing it as part of their jobs. In this case these women obviously wanted their names on the credits of the games they worked on.
Re:Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I remember racism on Usenet and email lists based on the time people posted or the message path headers being used to infer what their nationality was.
Re:Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. (Score:4, Insightful)
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Times change. We also used to balk at the idea of meeting people over the internet and god forbid we ever get in their car. Now we literally call people up with apps over the internet and get int heir cars.
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When I was a younger, in its early days, the whole reason the internet was great is because there were no gender, skin color or religion, we were all just nerds. No one knew or cared WHAT you were, just WHO you were. I remember when the idea of telling someone your real name on the internet was considered madness. I miss those days. It was just a lot simpler.
Unfortunately, as the internet came to the masses it brought with it all the benefits but also all the problems of society in general. I remember the days when you could actually sell and trade items on Usenet (yes, Usenet =/ Internet) and not worry about getting scammed. Trolling did not have a bad connotation; it had classics such THF2's "Shadows in the vacuum of space." Ludwig Plutonium KIBO AFU even had periodic meetings where you got to know each other. Then came eternal September...
Of course, even in
It was also just white dudes (Score:5, Informative)
Tech got cheap. Really cheap. Like, I can get a laptop online for about $100. $250 if I want a nice new one. $50 if I'll settle for a desktop. Also, the internet became a global communication tool and software was written to get non-nerds online. Finally, the old nerd caves (like
On the plus side you've got a _lot_ more folks online. A lot of those folks are helpful and good folks. I've been able to do tons of projects thanks to them.
You know how dumb the average person is...? (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually, I always got the sense that nobody cared who you were, just that your ideas were good ones. In the early days of Slashdot, there were a lot of really smart people commenting on the stories with a lot of interesting insight to add. Now, every third post seems to be by an AC with a IQ of 80 who feels a need to share their opinion with the world. Articles about quantum computing end up degenerating into Hillary and Trump mud slinging fights. Oh, Intranets.....
The Internet really went downhill in the 90s when companies like AoL were trying to get everyone in the world online for $14.95 a month. Now the Internet is a pretty good reflection of humanity in general, and it shows.
Re: Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't say that I don't like it. I am loving it.
I'm opposed to firing people just because a mob decides to be offended, even when it happens to sexist cunts like her. It would be hypocritical for me to object to it when it happens to people I agree with, but then celebrate it when it happens to someone I disagree with.
But yes, there is quite a bit of schadenfreude in watching the tables get turned.
Re:Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. (Score:5, Informative)
The identity politics happen on both sides or all sides to be precisely. Creating a cycle of hatred.
But since you single out the "being a woman and working in video the video game industry" part, look at Jessica Price twitter. She reacted on that criticism with:
Source: https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1014554296107483136
In the criticism she replied to there was no mention of her sexual identity (gender) or biological sex. It was a gender neutral opinion piece that did not attack her as a person at all. You can read it yourself using that link above. But she reacted with "Today in being a female game dev" as if the criticism was leveraged at her entire gender or sex or both, I'm not sure which one applies. That is a strong call for identity politics. Then in another tweet (https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1014581433937981445) she used that "manfeels" expression, again using a broad sweeping generalization implying that those who disagree with there are male, in gender or sex or whatever. Maybe she was right, and it was only or mostly males that disagreed with her, but that is also how you put oil into the identity politics fire and reinforce it as women vs men. The result being a self fulfilling prophecy because they aggravated it (of course that doesn't justify the reaction from the other side).
Just imagine if I answered to your reply under the label of "Romanians on the internet" and then going on about Americans wanting to explain to me how I should write in my tertiary language - English - on the internet. In that case you may think: "What does that have to do with anything?" And you would be right.
Looking at the other side I have also no doubts that there's plenty of people who overreacted to her tweets and called for a virtual lynch mob. A mob that isn't very selective when it comes to their targets, because if you're not with them, you're against them (unless there's an even bigger enemy around). That is identity politics. And from my perspective it only tends to make the situation worse.
Re: (Score:3)
In the criticism she replied to there was no mention of her sexual identity (gender) or biological sex. It was a gender neutral opinion piece that did not attack her as a person at all.
And yet somehow people feel the need to politely explain---in completely gender neutral ways---the utter basics to female carer veterans far more than male career veterans.
Re:Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. (Score:4, Insightful)
Other engineers constantly over explain shit to each other, we're rehashing it in our minds so we don't forget, we're educating each other, we're puffing up our egos. Sure. It happens to me every day, I know I do it too. If I don't have time for it I'll interrupt but usually I don't mind. We're on a roll after our 12th cup of coffee and blah blah blah our mouths are moving 100mph.
I can tell you even though I don't have problems with my co-workers I'm careful about explaining too much to any woman lest I make someone feel mansplained.
I also notice with but a few exceptions that most of the women I work with aren't excessive explainers so I can see maybe why they might feel offended.
Still excluding them from marathons mansplain sessions is sexist and it's the result of some of what I've seen in this supposedly feminist push.
Re:Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. (Score:4, Interesting)
Other engineers constantly over explain shit to each other, we're rehashing it in our minds so we don't forget, we're educating each other, we're puffing up our egos.
No. We rehash stuff, we don't explain the utter basics to someone we consider a peer. I've never had utter basics of my field explained to me, especially by some young'un at a conference (I ain't a young any more).
And yet every one of my female friends in tech areas and collegues with whom I've had conversations about the topic[*] have mentoned it happens repeatedly.
I'm not talking (say) going all motor mouth and over explaining two-phase lookup while chattng about C++20, I'm talking about explaining what a pointer is. To an industry veteran with 10 years experience. That kind of level of patronising.
[*] You have to be in a strong position of trust to have such conversations, mostly, because far too many guys react badly when they're told life isn't all roses and candy for women in tech.
Re: (Score:3)
We rehash stuff, we don't explain the utter basics to someone we consider a peer
That's bollocks. If I'm conveying something complex I'll often start at the basics, so that we can build a shared understanding from the bottom up, identify and address and differences in interpretation, and reach a shared conclusion.
I've never had utter basics of my field explained to me, especially by some young'un at a conference
What the fuck does a conference have to do with this conversation?
Anyway, work with me and I'll explain the basics of your job to you, because I will spot you failing miserably to apply them properly. It's what I do. I'm fucking good at it.
I don't give a flying fuck what gender
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
to address inequality? Racism and Sexism really are things. It's not like we've eliminated them completely from human thought and we can just go on our way. Just having laws against racial and sexual discrimination is technically 'identity politics'. Sure, you can take it too far (there's lots of whack jobs on the left and the right wing media spends an unhealthy amount of time reminding us of them) but when somebody's a racist or sexist you don't stop pointing out they're racist or sexist just because a few whack jobs want to cut everybody's dicks off.
Well, we pointed out that Jessica Price was sexist. What more do you want?
Re:What's the solution then (Score:4, Insightful)
All of that is standard progressive/SJW ideology, and it's very alienating to the rest of the left who just want equality. And just watch as this comment gets modded into oblivion for daring to point it out,
Whose troll army was this? (Score:3, Interesting)
How many troll armies have been unleashed on the United States, trying to stir up dissent and unrest using tactics like these?
Go woke, go broke (Score:3, Insightful)
She was fire for insulting the clients, she was not hire to speak garbage in twitter.
Smell the bullshit (Score:4, Interesting)
Worse, he gave *positive* encouraging feedback. Exactly the type companies want. I say, "He" but the name doesn't indicate male or female. Perhaps she ranted at a women for all I know. Either way it was bad. Then she double down on it publicly on Reddit, and it became a much much worse, a big problem for the company, to the extent they couldn't ignore it.
And she got fired, the CEO explained to her personally why, and she took that even badly, suggesting he sacked her personally to gloat. When I read it, that he thought highly enough to sack her personally, and explain why.
Serious personality issues.
As to the rest of this shit:
"But another female developer told Kotaku she saw a real call to action on 4chan, and that it was followed by angry letters to the game studio she freelances for calling for her firing too, complaining their games had declined since she was hired (along with another woman)."
A targetted letter aimed at a particular woman, yet supposidly a generic template with %FEMALENAME in the template as if its a generic letter sent about all women to every studio?
And %FEMALENAME, not just %NAME?? The word 'FEMALE" in there to back up the agenda claim. That doesn't ring true, and a google search does nothing to back it.
So I think this is just bullshit.
Jessica Price could be *Jeffry* Price for all it matters, he would still need to be sacked for that behavior.
Re: (Score:3)
I wish I had mod points for you. She wasnt fired for saying "thanks for telling me how to do my job". If she had stopped there muted the guy she would still have a job. She was fired for holding up an enthusiastic player with constructive criticism to public ridicule and further basically describing arena fans as emotional johns. That damages the company she worked for.
Every conceivable group is targeted (Score:2)
Ok, so just to be clear (Score:2, Insightful)
These tactics are bad and evil when used by one side, but when the forces of social justice band together to get conservatives silenced or fired, it's ok?
Seems to me they don't like the taste of their own medicine.
P.S. Are you really sure you want to make this woman your test case? I mean, seriously.
Re: Ok, so just to be clear (Score:2, Informative)
These tactics are bad and evil when used by one side, but when the forces of social justice band together to get conservatives silenced or fired, it's ok?
Yes. It is wrong to fake a group through the means described already. It is not wrong for a genuine group of people to assemble.
The difference is significant. And for what it is worth, there is already a record of criticism over form letters and such in protests.
You seem unaware that this predates the Internet.
Seems to me they don't like the taste of their own medicine.
Seems to me that you missed what is going on, namely that somebody substituted poison for medicine.
P.S. Are you really sure you want to make this woman your test case? I mean, seriously.
You seemed to have missed the point where multiple people are being targeted.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
There has to be a level of tolerance. I guess the level depends on the employer, but it's probably somewhere between "literal Nazi marching proudly" and "voted for the other candidate".
Not mansplanining (Score:4, Interesting)
The dude was perfectly polite in his question. She just went off on him because she obviously knows better as SHE is the dev and he's just a player, that she's doesn't have to explain why he's so wrong that warrants her going off on him and basically called him sexist for bringing her gender into the mix(which he NEVER did, she assumed it herself, it was NEVER a gender issue yet she keeps on repeating it was.)
This whole thing is ridiculous and all stemmed from that one awful dev, the same one who said she was glad Totalbiscuit was dead (you may not like him, but ffs, that's not something you say about someone that died of cancer and wasn't a criminal).
It was never a mansplaining or a gender issue, the gender of the dev was never bought into this other than by herself to "justify" her actions.
She deserved to be fired, this is no way to conduct yourself. A dev online is like a clerk in a store, you represent your company regardless of whether or not you put a disclaimer saying "the views expressed here are your own and bla bla bla".
Don't like it? Don't respond, simple as that. No one forced her to reply to him in such a manner.
Bet they aren't liking this for of equality. (Score:5, Insightful)
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No, you still have to become president first.
Classic "It's only a joke" fallback (Score:4, Interesting)
Horrid writing (Score:5, Insightful)
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She wasn't a "bit rude" but apparently you feel you have credibility to burn; I say otherwise but what do I know? ;)
Re:Horrid writing (Score:5, Informative)
Bit rude? Understatement of the fucking year.
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I am an asshole, I know and admit it.
Does that extend to simply making shit up to "prove" a point?
Lame, I've been reading Animojo's posts since I've been here, and his positions on matters of feminist social justice have been pretty consistent. Now, mind you, if you care to point out exactly what shit I made up, hell I'll acknowledge it.
You can not find not fault in anything any female would ever do.
Oh, looks like a yes!
I'm surprised that you even went so far as "a bit rude."
So you even admit he foud fault but said he didn't anyway. You're weird.
A bit rude? Wow - talk about condemning with incredibly faint condemning. Here is a woman rejoicing over a social media "enemy's" death via cancer, who freaks over constructive disagreement, then plays the sexist card pretty hard, while representing the company she wo
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She was "a bit rude"?
Sure. And Trump is a bit inconsiderate in his speeches.
This discussion gives me great hope for the future (Score:5, Insightful)
Same problem as always (Score:3, Insightful)
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You're a collection of bytes. Bytes don't have a gender.
0 and 1 would beg to differ...
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Some idiot brings gender into a discussion on the internet.
Yep, the women should just shut the fuck up about the shit they have to deal with. I mean the fact that there's troll armies targeting %FEMALENAME trying to get them fired, has nothing to do with it. They're hurting my delicate feelings by complaining and it makes me sad.
Um... these are public figures (Score:3)
This is fake news (Score:5, Informative)
The facts in this that we KNOW to be true are as follows. 1: Price received some feedback she didn't like. 2: She got offended over nothing and reacted badly. 3: She and a colleague were fired.
In the real world, a business' bread-and-butter are its customers. (This is doubly true for entertainment related businesses) Treat them badly, and your business suffers. Treat them badly a lot and do it publicly, it suffers seriously. GW2 was hemorrhaging players already and Ms. Price's writing was likely playing a part. I uninstalled it about 6 months ago myself after playing for years.
No excuses in this time of equality. (Score:2)
Tired of hearing about this childish lady (Score:3)
She couldâ(TM)ve agreed to disagree professionally and left it at that. Ignored further inquiries or insults. But no, sheâ(TM)s a triggered child and had to lash out as a representative of her company.
I work for one of the largest healthcare industry companies in the world and while we are encouraged to be participate on social media, we are not allowed to argue with others or defend the company other than offering to report complaints. I comment on my companyâ(TM)s posts, but I donâ(TM)t respond to other people even if itâ(TM)s positive as shit can get so twisted.
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I can see why, that "â(TM)" instead of ' looks silly.
Not fired for accusing someone of mansplaining (Score:5, Informative)
'After a long AMA on the Guild Wars 2 Reddit, Jessica Price; a writer for ArenaNet, went on to Twitter to post a 25-part essay on how she comes up with stories, and what is relevant as far as stories in todays MMO's. (Very rough synopsis, quite a good read.)
After posting the essay, many community members chimed in to thank Price on sharing her views, and how insightful the read was, with one very popular community member; who has his own NPC inside of Guild Wars 2, commenting on the essay hoping to be able to start a civil and polite conversation with, one of his favorite writers. (He denotes this in his Twitch stream before the Twitter debacle)
The attempt however at starting a polite and civil conversation with the ArenaNet Writer, ended in Price slandering and defaming the community member as a sexist who is trying to mans-plain the job to her, even after the community member apologized for trying to start a civil conversation. (Community member posted a total of 2 Replys to Price, the first being the initial polite conversation starter, the second the apology for attempting communication.)
The next day on July 5th (This all occurred on July 4th), ArenaNet's CEO Mike O' Brian released a statement on a Guild Wars 2 Reddit post stating that Jessica Price and another ArenaNet member have been fired for harassment of an community member, when no such harassment was necessary.'
Oh really (Score:3)
This article actually leaves in sufficient facts to contradict the narrative.
The reason that the reddit user "speaking satirically" comes up is that Polygon was pretending they had found someone who actually believed that, but Polygon accidentally linked to the post where he admits his post was fake. This demonstrates that Polygon knew that the post they linked to was a fake post from their own side, but they deliberately used it anyway as clickbait.
Furthermore, the claim that "nobody disagreed with him" is a voted into the negatives and deleted. Voting things down is often used to express disagreement.
The slashdot post is written poorly because it's trying to avoid admitting these things, because "the supposed misogyny among gamers is a false flag operation" contradicts the narrative.
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What makes you think that the 4chan trolls are gamers? Maybe the groups overlap, but they're by no means the same.
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If you talk on your private account exclusively about private matters, I can very well see how your views expressed there are yours and yours alone. I doubt your employer (or people caring about who you work for) is bothered by you not liking your pet's doctor because your pooch still got worms after alleged de-worming or you trash talking your kids' elementary teacher 'cause that's the only possibility your genius offspring gets Fs.
It's VERY different when your "private" account talks about work related st
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Employers need to stop bending over and letting the mob fuck them in the ass
Maybe we should tell James Damore that?
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Well, maybe employers will finally notice that just because a bunch of internet trolls get worked up over someone, whether that someone "deserves" it in the eyes of some assholes, this ain't no reason to fire him or her.
Re:The variable name alone makes it look fake (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Understood? Fucking SJW gaming press got trolled by someone claiming it was Reddit who got the rude bitch fired and then propagated that fake news out in their articles. When it became evident they got trolled (none wrote any retractions, btw), they then try and backtrack and "look into it deeper" to blame it on 4chan or gamergate. They fucking made the whole shit storm up.
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well documented and understood
According to the most biased and least trustworthy sources. Kotaku, Chapotraphouse, Brianna Wu. That's the holy trinity of liars, misrepresenters and professional victims. Throw in the Verge and Eurogamer for even more onesided bias and it becomes a big fat nothing burger.
Re:Progress (Score:5, Insightful)
There are two distinct parts to this story. One is that Jessica Price verbally abused and denigrated a fan, for which she was fired (and a male colleague who doubled down on that went along for the ride, which no one seems to talk about). The second part of the story is the mob reaction and ugly, sexist bullshit that was triggered in reaction to her own behavior, and unfortunately spilled over onto other targets as well. There are a lot of idiots who glom onto events like these and use them to launch personal attacks against people. Women do seem especially likely targets for them, but make no mistake - anyone can be a target.
We have to keep in mind that it was Ms Price who was the instigator of this series of events through her own actions. Or rather, her over-reaction to a fan's innocent response to her piece. She somehow took that response and interpreted it in the worst possible way, and lashed out at him in public, multiple times. Did she deserve the overwhelming hate and bile that was spewed her way? No, of course not, but let's be clear: she absolutely fired the first shots in that nasty little exchange. She was not fired for "speaking out" on women's issues. She was fired for treating a fan like garbage in public.
Are women exempt from the rules other professional game developers are expected to follow? Had I lambasted a game's fan with which I was professionally associated and called him a "rando asshat" in a public forum, I'd absolutely expect to be fired. I don't believe for a minute that ArenaNet simply caved to mob pressure. And the notion that game development studios are going to suddenly start listening to and acting on random hate-mail complaints because ArenaNet fired Price for inappropriate comments feels beyond absurd to me. In fact, in the examples given, the studios took clear stands to protect their female devs from harassment, but concerns were expressed about "other studios", of course.
Let's certainly work to foster more civility between developers and fans as we can, and that includes standing up for women when they're harassed simply for being women in a public role. But this story has a bit more nuance to it than that, and I don't think it's helpful to pretend that nuance doesn't really exist and focus only on half the story.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That's a very long post about Price, but she lost her job and bares no responsibly for the mob that used her firing to instigate an attack on other random women.
The real problem here is not one person who was punished for some rude tweets, it's we have a mob attacking people because of their gender. It's important to publicize it and develop countermeasures so that there are not more victims.
It would also be great if we could understand the people behind this and their motivations. Some people want to write
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
When feminists started the "mob attacking people because of their gender" bullshit with Adria Richards and various other Twitter crusades against employed people, the other side also took up the tactic against the feminists. The world is balanced, the heavens are fair, for every action there is a reaction. The heavens don't tolerate women waging war against men or men waging war against women, so they will pit the warmongers against each other - Feminists vs MRA's, while the average majority of normal peopl
The problem is that I trust no media anymore (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Yes, I absolutely agree that people who are using this as an excuse to attack other random women are an issue. Perhaps I didn't emphasize that point clearly enough. If you don't mind, I'll quote myself to re-iterate that point, because I think we're mostly in agreement:
The second part of the story is the mob reaction and ugly, sexist bullshit that was triggered in reaction to her own behavior, and unfortunately spilled over onto other targets as well. There are a lot of idiots who glom onto events like these and use them to launch personal attacks against people. Women do seem especially likely targets for them, but make no mistake - anyone can be a target.
But I've also seen a disturbing narrative that seems to be blaming ArenaNet for their firing of Price and Fries, which was completely justified IMO, and speculating that this is going to trigger some dramatic sea-change in the industry, whe
SJW spin in full AmiMoJo swing (Score:4, Insightful)
That's a very long post about Price, but she lost her job and bares no responsibly for the mob that used her firing to instigate an attack on other random women.
"Bears", and while she's not responsible for the mob's actions, certainly her actions (and not her being) turn out to have been the trigger for a mob of idiots to go on harassing other women. While I don't condone any of this, it's fairly clear why it happened: Someone threw oil on what turns out to have been a smoldering fire. And now it burns. Whoops.
It's a bit like dropping a smoldering cigarette butt in a dry forest. Many times it'll just go out. Sometimes, even if you stamp it out then walk away, might still cause the entire forest to burn down. If you know the forest is dry, even lighting up a ciggie there is criminally irresponsible. (Hard to grasp concept for some. How about you?)
The real problem here is not one person who was punished for some rude tweets,
For some identity politics-flavoured toxic tweets. It was well beyond mere rudeness. Which explains (but doesn't justify, thanks) the counter-trolling. But I see you mostly post to make your spin stick. Again, "oh, it's AmiMoJo again. Oh well."
it's we have a mob attacking people because of their gender.
That's actually not quite correct. The mob is trolling to see if they can get people fired, which happens to be aimed at females because the trigger happens to be female. If she'd been male then the barrage of bot-complaints would've been against male game designers. I know it's not on your agenda to admit this, but I'll point it out to you anyway.
It's important to publicize it and develop countermeasures so that there are not more victims.
Knowing what's going on ought to be enough. If your employer would fire you without first talking through the complaints then you're better off not working for that employer. In an internet age employers cannot afford to let their valuable human capital up and vanish because some random troll sent a truckload of automated complaints over, well, nothing. If they succumb, the company eventually succumbs.
It would also be great if we could understand the people behind this and their motivations. Some people want to write it off as general trolling, like it's some innate property of the internet that just happens spontaneously, but there is a years old pattern of attacks on women specifically with deeply misogynistic motivations.
Go hang out on 4chan and report your findings, there's a good little researcher.
To be clear: 4chan has "a years old pattern of attacks" against just about anyone, everyone, regardless of any single thing. They'll hate you just so they have an excuse to hate you, until their attention span runs out and then they'll hate something else for a while.
Again, not on your agenda to admit it, but 4chan's history is pretty clear to just about everyone else here.
Re: (Score:3)
Nah, AmiMoJo is usually a fairly level-headed guy, it's just his extreme predictability when it comes to whiteknighting that gets a bit grating. I shouldn't have said what I did, but he manages to come across as it doesn't matter what people do or say - if it's a woman saying it, it must be defended no matter what. He's the person I think most likely to whiteknight Elizabeth Bathory.
That rubbed me the wrong way, and I went for the man and not the ball. Apologies for that. (But not for thinking whiteknight
Re:Progress (Score:4, Insightful)
It was equally well documented back in the day that many actions pinned on GamerGate were suspicious or even outright faked, and that didn't stop the press from taking them at face value. Best example being the Felicia Day doxing, where an address was posted by an account with a misspelled name of a notable Youtuber, which was never confirmed to even be hers, but it was spread all over the news within 24 hours that GamerGaters had doxxed her.
These reporters are like a feminist Fox Mulder, they want to believe the misogyny is out there so badly, all you need is some cheap smoke and mirrors to lead them down whatever rabbit hole you want. Is it any surprise there are trolls eager to pull their strings for laughs? You can call them part of GamerGate too if that makes you feel better, but that doesn't change the fact that the press are being useful idiots and gullable fools.
Re:Progress (Score:4, Insightful)
It's sometimes hard to take these "threats" seriously, especially coming from someone like Brianna Wu, who has proven record of blatantly launched fake attacks against herself before [knowyourmeme.com] to make herself look like a victim (she has a very long history of this, [lolcow.wiki] too). She's probably be right that these are sock puppets and bot accounts, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they're owned by her. And her "proof" is posts on 4chan, a site where everyone posts anonymously? Come on, son. That's some seriously weak shit right there, even by her standards.
Re: (Score:3)
No need to speculate. They discussed doing it openly on 4chan. They always do.
Re: I wouldnt believe it "backfired" (Score:3)
"They" being who, exactly? You realize that everyone on 4chan is anonymous right? Even if you actually had seen such conversations (and I don't for a minute believe that you had) "they" could very well been the exact hoaxers that he was talking about.
Re: (Score:2)
Indeed, one of the things that makes it hard to deal with is the seemingly anonymous nature of the attackers. But that's also their weakness, because the bots and fake accounts they hide behind are not too difficult to spot when you know what to look for. Once you see a lot of fake accounts involved it discredits the attack.
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On 4chan, "they" can even be a single person discussing with himself. It's a standard tool in the trolling toolbox.
(We presumably see that sometimes here too, with AC account(s).)
Re: (Score:2)
This claim is untrue.
Re:Disappointing aspects (Score:5, Insightful)
How dumb is it to get in text based public flamefests limited to short sentences? The only thing profiting are companies like Twitter who call it "engagement", which drives up ad revenue. Just stop using Twitter for anything. If you really have to use it, use it for entertainment. So called "social media" is not a place for serious discussion - especially not Twitter! The fact that our President uses it is outrageous enough. Just stop using it. Nothing good comes out of it, unless you are a Twitter shareholder.
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Now, that may just be the most important bit of advice to come out of this whole affair. Facebook, too.
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What community? "The internet community" was maybe (BIG maybe) a thing 25 years ago when it took more than half a brain cell to connect and maybe another one to get the various tools to work to actually get a two-way communication going. Back then webpages and being able to start Netscape meant that you can read someone's opinion, not that you yourself could voice yours.
Today, there is no "internet community". The internet is filled with the same shitty no-brain bastards that littered the meatspace with the
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: Time to out the assholes on 4chan (Score:4, Insightful)
I work as a teacher... As such, I have some restrictions on what I can do outside my work... and I never had to sign any document about that...
1) no racist attacks (even if the people in front of me act racist, I CAN'T answer in the same terms) ...)
2) no talks against my school... Even if I see problems with some coworkers, I can't make random posts about it.
3) no talks about coworkers in front of students (the big taboo)
4) no "unrespectable behaviour"... this includes being seen drunk in the public space, unfit clothing (no SM-wear in the street or nazi costume or
and so on...
I guess that requirements imposed on teachers are bigger than those on gaming company... but clearly, what she posted is unacceptable... She was not on the internet as "Jane Doe" but as "Jessica Price, writer at Arena.Net"... As such, she had only two choices : politely avoiding the conflict or blocking the guy and ignoring him...
And now, we see people getting pissed off because she got fired... she deserved it... If she can't control her temper online, she should avoid posting !!!
Re: (Score:2)
The problem isn't feminism. The problem is that some people use the label "feminist" to con people out of money, much like others use religion for the same purpose. If their con job is called out, they call prosecution and play the misogynist card as a thought-terminating cliché, hoping (often successfully) that their narrative will work.
This is the main problem feminism currently has, especially with its own supporters.