India Pushes Back Against Tech 'Colonization' by Internet Giants (nytimes.com) 176
In India, American companies dominate the internet. Facebook's WhatsApp is the most popular app on phones. Virtually every smartphone runs on Google's Android system. YouTube is the favorite video platform and Amazon is the No. 2 online retailer. For some Indian political leaders, it is as if their nation --which was ruled by Britain for a century until 1947 -- is being conquered by colonial powers all over again. And they are determined to stop it. From a report: "As a country, we have to all grow up and say that, you know, enough of this," Vinit Goenka, a railways official who works on technology policy for India's governing Bharatiya Janata Party, said at a conference last week. In recent months, regulators and ministers across India's government have declared their intention to impose tough new rules on the technology industry. Collectively, the regulations would end the free rein that American tech giants have long enjoyed in this country of 1.3 billion people, which is the world's fastest-growing market for new internet users. The proposals include European-style limits on what big internet companies can do with users' personal data, a requirement that tech firms store certain sensitive data about Indians only within the country, and restrictions on the ability of foreign-owned e-commerce companies to undercut local businesses on price. Matthew Prince, CEO of Cloudflare, commented on the story, saying, "India is currently the most important country in term of defining the future of Internet policy. It sits at the fulcrum between the United States and China. As it goes, so goes the world."
IBM in India (Score:5, Interesting)
In the 1960's, IBM chose to leave the market in India because of how the government tried to force them to do business.
Re: IBM in India (Score:3)
Doesn't surprise me - I can easily imagine the local officials saying 'hey, it's not like they are going to walk away from a 750 million customer country!'
Yes, they would.
Those curious about government attempts would do well to research the US government's purchasing requirement to only buy computers/periphersls that use ASCII character representation. The US gov't thought they could change 'Big Blue', but they were wrong...
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Linux on system-z uses ASCII, not EBCDIC.
No Good (Score:2)
ASCII is no good in India.
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The US government is still there, but "Big Blue" has had to try to remake itself.
And
Re: IBM in India (Score:1)
You are absolutely right. Look at CEOs of Microsoft, Google and many others. All Indian Americans, all signalling American inclusiveness to Indians. India's openness to reliance on US tech is hugely valuable.
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An important detail: they are all people who left India to be successful. Sure, they're keen on locating proles there to do the heavy lifting. They're not staying there and working as management under the Indian government's regime.
They understand India and the Indian market better than westerners would.
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Not all people are customers. Being a starving peasant living in poverty does not make you a customer.
All this points to the same fucking thing, US intelligence agencies just had to play idiot fuckwit games and now no one trusts US corporations and major countries are striving to force localised development.
The big winner going forward FOSS because it gives a major head start to independent technology production.
I see a major global fracturing taking place, between the haves and the have nots. Those who
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And then in less than 25 years IBM became totally irrelevant. Good job.
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Yes, and for the same reason, they tried to force their customers to do business the way they wanted because, hey, you can't get around us.
Li'l hint to all corporations and governments that are likewise arrogant: Yes, we can get around you. One way or another.
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IBM did succeed in defining most of what mainstream PC technology grew into.
Okay, they pushed hard for Microchannel, which didn't stay in the mainstream hardware. PCI isn't IBM's thing. But the whole x86 architecture, the hardware/software stack, is something that IBM started.
We all, even Apple these days, have hardware that lives in IBM's shadow.
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x86 was 'off the shelf' when IBM selected it for the first PC. They licensed PC-DOS from Gates.
The only thing they built was the bios, which Compaq reverse engineered for us.
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OPEN architecture? Yes, with ISA, when they thought nobody would come and copy their stuff, but you might want to read up on MCA [wikipedia.org]. And how IBM got punched on the nose for it.
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Wow, you have a limited understanding of IBMs offerings & technology.
Maybe take a moment and look into a little thing IBM made real popular in the 1970s - virtual machines, particularly their VM and later MVS operating systems (through all their various forms). IBM was making computers for decades before they dropped Microchannel on the PC industry - and for the record, microchannel was successful in the non-PC AIX workstation market for a while.
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MCA was successful with AIX but it failed miserably in the PC market due to licensing and a similar EISA bus being introduced by competition that wasn't weighed down with patents and licensing fees.
IBM tried to regain control over the PC market but failed, simply because by the time they tried, they were about as well liked as MS is today, seen as an overbearing control freak trying to dictate what you can and cannot do with the systems they sell you.
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All it says is they're considering making some rules, it doesn't actually say anything about forcing the Indian people to choose locally-owned apps.
Re:IBM in India (Score:5, Informative)
In the 1960's, IBM chose to leave the market in India because of how the government tried to force them to do business.
. . . and today, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] :
"Since 2006, IBM has been the multinational with the largest number of employees in India. IBM is very secretive about the geographic distribution of its employees. By most estimates, it has close to a third of its 430,000 employees (~ 100,000) in India, and it likely has more employees there than in the US."
Indian Business Machines, indeed.
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Times change. My comment was meant as a historical reference. IBM is huge in India now.
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IBM is somewhat huge in India now. I referred to the period of the 1960s, when IBM punished India technologically for their nativism.
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Does that mean India treats foreign companies worse than China does?
Yes. China requires big foreign businesses to have a local "partner" (and there are ways to weasel out of that, say, by creating a local shell company run by someone you trust), but after that, China is mostly free-wheeling capitalism. There is little bureaucracy, taxes are low, and if you need a favor, the guanxi network makes it clear who you need to bribe. Utilities are rock-solid reliable, cheap, and can be turned on within an hour of your application. Real estate is easy to lease, and building perm
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The existence of the Indian market for cellphone companies to market to is a boon to frugal cellphone customers here in the US. The Galaxy J3 and J7 are hella-good budget handsets targeted to the India market, but they're darn fine for cheapskates like me in the US. I recently upgraded from a J3 to a J7. The J7 is an awesome piece of gear for $150 when you can find one for that price. The J3 is a lot of goodness for just $60 these days. It's kinda the iPhone SE for the frugal.
Wonder how this will be enforced? (Score:2)
and restrictions on the ability of foreign-owned e-commerce companies to undercut local businesses on price.
What is the incentive for Indian companies to lower prices?
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Re: Wonder how this will be enforced? (Score:1)
That's how they'll make more money, not how to incentivize them to lower prices. Competition is key to lowering prices but it doesn't need to come from abroad as the parent comment suggests.
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Call it a new basic customs duty on imported tech. Then all the extra parts that go with the tech get a tax. Battery, headset, chargers.
That extra price makes all domestic products look great. The repatriation strategy can also get looked at for Indian tax liabilities.
Their Turn (Score:1)
Make India Great Again (Score:1)
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Start passing out the MIGA hats!
Too late. India is already run by a demagogue worse than Trump.
Modi helped to instigate, and did nothing to stop, the 2002 Gujarat Riots [wikipedia.org] that killed 2000 people.
Silly Indians... (Score:3, Insightful)
"For some Indian political leaders, it is as if their nation -- which was ruled by Britain for a century until 1947 -- is being conquered by colonial powers all over again. And they are determined to stop it."
How about this: we will keep our tech sites (and our technology) and you can keep your H-1Bs. Sound fair?
Globalization is a two-way street, bitches.
Re:Silly Indians... (Score:4, Interesting)
Are you certain that your "tech sites" could function without the H1-Bs?
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Likely yes, hiring locals instead of foreign temps who work for peanuts.
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Are you certain that your "tech sites" could function without the H1-Bs?
They could probably function better. Of course, some of the larger companies might have to substantially change the way they do business, but that would result either in them creating more jobs for citizens, or in them going out of business and letting someone else do that.
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Why is that? Do Indian workers "monkey" things up where you are?
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Why is that? Do Indian workers "monkey" things up where you are?
No, but the H1B program screws things up in general.
P.S. Up yours
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Apparently everyone monkeys it up everywhere! It's just a phrase.
Ooo ooo ooo *flings poo*
https://www.realclearpolitics.... [realclearpolitics.com]
30 seconds in.
Web is Bloated [Re:Silly Indians...] (Score:2)
At first, not. But if cuts are forced, companies would have to remove some of the bloated and excessive layers of CSS and JS libraries to make their sites maintainable with less staff.
There's a lot of fat that can be trimmed. Craigslist runs just fine, and fast, without eye-candy and UI toys. If the H1-B's were cut back, the PHB's would just have to learn to say "no" to me-to gimmicks. (Craigslist is perhaps an extreme case, but som
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I have to say, blaming H1-B workers for the excessive layers of CSS and Javascript is a novel viewpoint.
Re: Silly Indians... (Score:1)
While I agree that H1-B's suppress wage growth for tech jobs, we're currently experiencing a worker shortage. That shortage is improving salaries but also starves startups of talent needed to build their products. I don't think it's a bad thing but it is an important consideration.
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we're currently experiencing a worker shortage
Only a shortage of those that will work for peanuts.
If you're not actually in management, then you've fallen for what is pretty clearly a lie.
Only when my company was bought out and new management took over was there suddenly a "tech worker shortage" in our area. The shortage coincided with two percent raises and firings of those who were already making decent pay.
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American workers are not "deplorables". You don't find a lot of the people you would call "deplorable" in Silicon Valley.
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They are equating e-commerce sites with colonization - the comparison is asinine. If Amazon can sell curry to Indians cheaper than native Indian e-commerce sites can sell it, the issue isn't Amazon, it's the Indian culture and business practices that make their costs higher. What these politicians are saying is rather than change their practices and customs, they want Indian citizens to pay a premium and support local businesses... This is something many nations struggle with, it is not a uniquely Indian is
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Do me the needful, Vinit (Score:1)
Please Visit, do me the needful when it comes to regulation!
Why different? (Score:5, Insightful)
> it is as if their nation --which was ruled by Britain for a century until 1947 -- is being conquered by colonial powers all over again.
How can they dream to be different from almost all other countries?
If you skip the self colonized USA and Cina, everyone else is colonized by the tech giants.
Can they afford the difference?
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How could they?
They can skip Google/Amazon altogether and will recluse themselves away from the "other part of the world".
Which is called the "internal market".
...So Program Your Own? (Score:3)
I mean, maybe there's a smidge of a thing somwhere in here...but let's be real: it's not like India is incapable of rolling their own alternatives. In aggregate, they've got enough programming talent, and it's not like WhatsApp is some unicorn of an app that has impossible-to-replicate requirements. If India wanted to make a legit alternative to Android, WhatsApp, and Youtube, they are not lacking in the human or technical resources to do it within a very short period of time. It might take a little bit for the network effect to kick in, but if North Korea can roll their own Linux distro, it is well within the realm of India to provide competitive applications.
Re:...So Program Your Own? (Score:5, Insightful)
Then there is the teeny weeny problem of convincing the masses to switch to the new Indian alternative apps, that come bundled with government surveillance. Who would do that? It's safer to be spied upon by multinationals than your own govt.
Re:...So Program Your Own? (Score:5, Insightful)
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The regulations are about prices on e-commerce sites - think Amazon, Bangood, etc., not YouTube.
India, land of corpses and feces and open sewers (Score:1, Informative)
They are born in filth and die filth.
India, a nation of street shitters [planetcustodian.com].
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So San Francisco without the expensive real estate and drugs.
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No drugs?
Damn, there's always a catch.
Re:India, land of corpses and feces and open sewer (Score:5, Insightful)
India, a nation of street shitters [planetcustodian.com].
Kinda like San Francisco [businessinsider.com] is becoming?
Be careful of American sabotage and intervention (Score:1)
they are not shy about doing what it takes to get market share. People may even be assassinated if they are perceived to be too big of an obstacle in the expansion of American markets and the establishment of American corporation dominance.
Just look at these things played out in south and latin America during the 20th century. India is an even bigger and more desirable market.
translation (Score:5, Insightful)
"Indians use these services, but profits from these services go overseas. And I just happen to have some wealthy local friends who would like a slice of this pie. And, being a politician, I am playing a patriotism card for them, to pave the way for the popular movement to support local product-to-be."
Nothing wrong or even unusual about it though; it's about as ethical (or unethical, depending on one's PoV) as the "eat locally grown food" slogan. In theory, if they are capable of creating an alternative to (at least some subset of) Google services, some new competition is always good for the market and so good for everyone. But what usually happens is they start applying external pressure by putting services in unequal conditions by subsidizing locals or even doing darker things like throttling traffic at state level or limiting their capability to earn revenue through regulatory measures. Eh, I'm not a globalization fan either, so whatever.
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Agreed. I find it funny they're complaining about services they didn't invent or startup, and then complain that they're not sufficiently to India's benefit. Being technical and being creative are two different things, so perhaps they should focus more on developing and providing their own vision.
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Oh I certainly am a fan of the concept of a state acting in the interests of their citizens. But does this really happen in today's world, in large countries?
I guess I am jaded, and would love to be wrong on this one, but not really holding my breath much.
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I understand very well what you mean, but differences in perception of "what is best for them" by citizens of different nations aren't really important here. I take it without any doubt that each state is in general capable of creating the best business environment according to that state's citizens' tastes. It's true that there are states that have a long history of free market ideology, so they are doing kind of OK-ish in this regard. But at this stage in humanity in general the wind blows the other way;
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But does this really happen in today's world, in large countries?
That's a good question. Lets assume the goal of a state is to act in the interest of their citizens, all or a limited number of them.
; If countries like Germany and France are considered big, then perhaps yes. Even though UK likes to be a bastion of liberalism, they too appear to consider their state sovereignty and public benefit as important concepts..
The problem comes when the 'limited number' is primarily politicians and their donors.
Why principles matter... (Score:2)
... Why as a Chinese or Indian person should I use American companies that provide no benefit over domestic institutions?
They've compromised principles of freedom of speech... kowtowed to the censorship of Tienanmen Square etc... why would I bother with the American version when the domestic version is the same thing?
They hollowed out a lot of the American infrastructure, outsourced like crazy, adopted a lowest common denominator policy regarding how they conduct freedom of speech...
And what did they get fo
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As to laughable... if both treat the same person the same... then they're the same.
If google lets teh chinese government spy on their people through the google service then why use google?
Re: Why principles matter... (Score:3, Interesting)
Because it's a better product. The whole reason Google is considering adapting to Chinese censorship is because they know that they have the best product but can't "sell it" without Chinese government approval. The real problem is that Google would be relieving social pressure on the Chinese government to change its information policies.
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Doesn't matter. Because even if you are better, they're going to start censoring your platform to promote theirs.
What has cooperation gotten you?
You had to give up IP.
You had to train you competition.
You had to compromise your product.
You had to compromise your principles.
And in return, they'll take everything they took from you, build your replacement, and ban your product from market.
It was folly.
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You're talking about outsourcing manufacturing of a product or product line to Chinese companies, not adapting a service to meet Chinese government requirements. What IP will Google give up in this process? What training will they provide? The answer is none.
The only part of your argument that applies to this situation is the one about Google compromising on their principles and I already agreed with you there.
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No, I'm talking about both and more. As to IP transfers, that is a well established and much complained about feature. Many companies have complained about it from not just the US but also from Europe. As to training, that is a requirement for outsourcing. How do you outsource if you don't train your outsourced firm? Your statement is at best irrational.
To this you conclude "none"... I'm not going to argue with someone that points at the Sun in the sky and claims it isn't there.
Good day, sir.
http://heeeresw [ytmnd.com]
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Actually, considering the fact that an american business would force both american (can't say n****) and local (can't insult the ruler) restrictions, while a local would only force local restrictions, it is possible that a local business would allow more freedom of speech.
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Guy who hides his posts attacks someone else's post history... where the AC in question got donkey stomped... and is clearly so butt hurt about it still that he is trolling the person that crushed the AC's position.
https://youtu.be/8X48RiKQmFQ?t... [youtu.be]
You can't win by whining at me like a sick dog. You have no moral superiority, no intellectual superiority... Every time you act like a degenerate, I feel more vindicated in my position. You're boosting my ego. Do you realize that? You're failing so hard at trolli
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Nope.
I said YOU... "you"... Personally... could come up with ANY system... any system what so ever... design it however you like to set up a voter ID system so that only people authorized to vote can vote.
And you said that was impossible.
Never mind that nearly everyone has driver's licenses. Guess those are racist too, Chump?
Passports... racist... Fishing licenses... racist...
You're an idiot.
You say "I" live in a strange reality.
You missed the bit where "you" criticize "my" post history whilst hiding yours.
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Because revealing your obvious sophistry shouldn't be too hard...
Do tell, define the sort of evidence you would accept.
If you refuse to cite a type or cite something silly like "aliens arrive from mars and tell me"... then you'll have confessed to request information in bad faith.
If you accept and cite a reasonable standard of evidence, then I'll provide it and that will be checkmate.
Do it, Chump.
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First, you're likely the same sad AC attempting to appear more authoritative by making another comment pretending to be a third party. Keep in mind, if you were, it would look exactly like that post. As such, I have to assume you're probably the same sad fellow.
Second, I did actually validate my position. If you look at the thread, I've posted links that support my position. But just because I don't mind beating dead horse arguments in the street to prove you have no case:
Look at the cited Pew study... that
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I comment to people all the time without saying they're degenerates.
I only do this when people act like degenerates. It just so happens that you've seen some degenerates attempt to dog pile me a few times.
This doesn't mean I "always" do this anymore than a woman hits everything with a fly swatter... Just flies.
You can go through my post history and whilst there are quite a few salty people that don't like me because I contradict obviously bad position they've taken... I have very friendly interactions with
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Actually not... I'll go through my post history if you want and rifle through it.
Note... comments between me and the SAME trolling AC are hardly evidence of anything but a persistent crying individual that literally searching my account every time he posts to see if I've commented on anything... and then says something stupid to remind me that he's still throwing a temper tantrum.
We'll start with the interactions I've had with "you".
I clearly disagree with you. But I also am not insulting you. Why is that?
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First, you didn't cite a single discussion you wanted to use for evidence.
Not one.
You instead vaguely cited all of them in the assumption that would qualify as evidence whilst freeing you from any obligation to defend your citation. I've already pointed this out.
You can cite a specific discussion you want and then show some integrity by defending it. Or... you're just doubling down on a failed argument.
Second, as to cherry picking, again... you can see how I've conducted this discussion with you. This is pr
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The citation didn't involve me being hostile with anyone.
You example fails. I simply said an argument was irrational and thus bad faith had to be assumed when it was made.
That isn't breaking codes of civility.
Try again.
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quote it... and we'll see if I can justify it.
If I can't then I'll concede the point to you. If I can, then you'll have to find evidence that actually is evidence of anything besides my position.
I looked over that thread and didn't see your argument there.
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And just because you're honestly boring...
https://www.texasattorneygener... [texasattorneygeneral.gov]
There are people getting charged with voter fraud all the time.
The system is open to abuse. Many government agencies have been cautioning for years that it has to be tightened up. People are getting caught committing voter fraud. People are admitting to committing voter fraud.
Non-citizens in the US for example tend to get caught when they apply for US citizenship. See, your citizenship isn't checked when you register to vote. It isn'
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liar liar.
To prove you're a liar again on top of the lie just there...
Let us say we didn't do an ID at all but merely cross referenced the citizenship database with the voter registration database?
because we don't do that.
can we do that?
It would not require US citizens to do anything. The two databases would just be be compared.
I suspect that is also voter suppression, right... Liar?
https://www.supremecourt.gov/o... [supremecourt.gov]
Supreme court cites a pew study you would look at in that PDF if you have integrity... you do
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You proved my point again by refusing cross referencing a database of US citizens with the voter registry.
No inconvenience or expense to the poor voters you say I'm trying to do vote tampering against.
You've confessed.
Well, try to roll your own (Score:3)
If you don't want to buy from abroad, it's time to make your own.
But when I look at the quality we usually get from our outsourced "partners"... I have a hunch I know why you don't.
Does India think colonialism only goes one way? (Score:2)
Colonialism is an emergent property of power:
https://www.businessinsider.co... [businessinsider.com]
they're Indian services after all. (Score:2)
"Indians use these services, but profits from these services go overseas."
and with the profits of those services they pay the wages of the programmers, which are most likely... in India.
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San Jose.
Made in India (Score:1)
start by allowing Indian American to return (Score:1)
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Whoever came up with Yoda's speech pattern really loved postfix notation...
Re:Nationalism fad spreading (Score:4, Insightful)
Begun, the trade wars has. -Yoda
It has been going a lot longer than this with India. India has had a very protectionist economy for decades; it's probably one of the main reasons why China became an economic powerhouse- and India is growing much slower, despite being on better terms with most of the developed nations of the world than China.
India doesn't like foreign companies operating on their seas- they used to keep out grocery stores, department stores from over seas- now they are pushing against IT. I understand why they're doing it, and the history there... but it's shooting themselves in the foot. Once they stop being a protectionist state, they could start to rise in power and eventually challenge the US and China.
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Yoda says "has".
Re: Nationalism fad spreading (Score:2)
Ok, we need to stop elevating Yoda's inability to speak proper English.
The truth is, he was good at a lot of things and studied all the time. But during HomeEco and English, he slept. The teachers thought he was "meditating" and "becoming one with the force". He was sleeping!
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Ok, we need to stop elevating Yoda's inability to speak proper English.
He speaks English vocabulary with Japanese grammar.
Japanese grammar makes sense to me because I grew up using an RPN calculator.
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I thought it was Yoddish.
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A penny spar'd is twice got.
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Only then will douche you not be.
A douche they will still be, translocated they has.
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Muahahah, see, nobody asks about the USA or USSR when you bring Nazi Germany on the table! It's like shooting 100,000 Iranians and two dentists.
Re: Nationalism fad spreading (Score:3)
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C'mon, you know the old joke. Press conference in the war room:
Speaker: We're gonna kill 100,000 Iraqi and two dentists.
Journalist: Question: Why the two dentists?
Speaker (to aide): See? Told you nobody's gonna ask about the Iraqi.
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India leads the world in cold-calling supposed Microsoft support phone calls and virus removal.
Because responding to Windows problems takes a billion-person support team.