Senior Google Scientist Resigns Over 'Forfeiture of Our Values' in China (theintercept.com) 178
A senior Google research scientist has quit the company in protest over its plan to launch a censored version of its search engine in China. The Intercept: Jack Poulson worked for Google's research and machine intelligence department, where he was focused on improving the accuracy of the company's search systems. In early August, Poulson raised concerns with his managers at Google after The Intercept revealed that the internet giant was secretly developing a Chinese search app for Android devices. The search system, code-named Dragonfly, was designed to remove content that China's authoritarian government views as sensitive, such as information about political dissidents, free speech, democracy, human rights, and peaceful protest. After entering into discussions with his bosses, Poulson decided in mid-August that he could no longer work for Google. He tendered his resignation and his last day at the company was August 31. He told The Intercept in an interview that he believes he is one of about five of the company's employees to resign over Dragonfly. He felt it was his "ethical responsibility to resign in protest of the forfeiture of our public human rights commitments," he said.
Why is this uncommon? (Score:5, Insightful)
I have quit jobs that I felt has turned me into a bad person, and I would look in the mirror and realized I wasn't happy with what I had became.
Sure we all have jobs that we may not like or disagree with, but if you have a moral objection to it, you should quit your job. If you are Senior Data scientist, Google may have a harder time replacing your job. But I am sure they will find someone to fill the gap. But the thing is, we can't always change the world, but at least we can feel good about our current place in it.
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"Why is this uncommon?" wage slaves. err wage workers for python users
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Normally you can get an other job lined up before you just get up an quit.
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He has probably racked up more than enough to retire and live comfortably ever after with no worries for his future anyway.
Granted, his conscience is laudable, but at least it should be easy enough to leave and continue living without having to line up another job first.
Re:Why is this uncommon? (Score:4, Insightful)
person who resigned is virtue signaling. and covering up for google at same time, by acting as if this something new for the company
* google has been spying on everyone to make money for years. its how they make money.
* it has been sharing info with usa intelligence agencies.
* it actively helped usa's interfering political agenda's in other countries, for example actively helping and making apps for syria's mostly islamic terrorist opposition to assad. now just before a major military operation( with already heated propaganda claims and counter claims about chemical weapons) google is censoring regimes's media, only regime's not opposition's.
* conservatives and trump supporters claim they have been targeted by google through censorship, blocking, shadow banning , etc,. some have indeed been subjected to all that.
* google companies are now actively propping up visibility of legacy media, with their bias and establishment views, allegedly to combat "fake news".
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Nooo This cannot be... I have seen nothing about this on CNN :)
Re:Why is this uncommon? (Score:5, Insightful)
As much as I despise virtue signalling, this, refreshingly, is not an example of it. The employee in question chose to quit his job rather than continue on in his position. He deliberately chose personal sacrifice/inconvenience in favor of his pet issue. Whether I agree or disagree with an activist on any particular issue, I can at least show some amount of respect to a person who is willing to put their money where their mouth is.
Virtue signalling, in contrast, is the act of shouting very loudly about an issue without actually doing anything about it. Look at me, I'm one of the Good Guys! I care soooooo deeply about Issue X! Those Bad Guys would never care as deeply as me! And so on.
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Bravo. Well said.
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At what point of pain, of sacrifice, does "virtue signaling" turn into plain old virtue, AKA being principled?
As near as I can tell, the qualifying difference between standing on principle and virtue signaling is putting action to your words. I fail to see how resigning your position in a company because the company is doing things you disagree with on principle (ooh there's that word again) is merely "virtue signaling".
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At what point of pain, of sacrifice, does "virtue signaling" turn into plain old virtue, AKA being principled?
When action was simply done in private, and not broadcasted to the world through the media.
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* conservatives and trump supporters claim they have been targeted by google through censorship, blocking, shadow banning , etc,.
Except that hasn't actually happened.
But it's a fantastic excuse when you mistakenly believe you are part of a large majority, yet do not see that reflected online.
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happy in your bubble? to live in the "don't be evil" is real, fantasy! what bliss!!
don't forget to hug each other if the bubble bursts for a day or two due real world events, as weepy google cfo urged at tgif meeting after 2016 election.
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I'm not the one on the inside of the bubble, I'm afraid.
If you'd like to provide some actual evidence of what you allege, I'd be happy to read it. But evidence is not the same as "I'm not getting as many views as I used to"
I eagerly await your next fusillade of insults insisting that evidence is everywhere yet you don't quite manage to point to any.
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How about users not getting notifications about new content from people they subscribe to? Or getting randomly unsubscribed from certain people?
And now all you need to do is actually supply evidence of this. Such evidence should include this not happening to similar liberal content creators.
What do you say to the conservative Youtoubers that have their videos automatically demonetized every time they post one
Same thing I say to the liberal Youtubers that have the same thing happen. Again, if you are attempting to prove bias, you have to prove it isn't happening to "the other side".
What do you call an average 95% drop in retweets from one day to the next
I call it someone who didn't have as "hot" a follow-up story.
Look up the Project Veritas video on shadow banning where a former Twitter engineer admits to it in camera.
So, you want me to look up the video from people who have been forced to admit they doctor videos and treat that as evidence.
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lol@bubbleboy,
shifting goal posts from "provide evidence" to "prove it isn't happening to "the other side".
rejecting evidence because project veritas allegedly edited a video to make a point forcefully (like any other media outlets; wapo, nyt, cnn, big tv networks, etc have done the same many more times and admitted it sometimes when called out) about another abortion related story(unlike other media's errors, point veritas were making was valid and true even without editing btw). and because they were conv
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Youâ(TM)d be surprised what a minority the supposed âoepopularâ views are.
Yeah, like single-payer heathcare. That one is only supported by 70% of the population, clearly it's not at all popular. It's nothing like the popularity of repealing gun control laws (20-30% depending on poll).
And the people surprised about Donald Trump were the media. We actual liberals could see what was coming.
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Yes, Google has long shed any semblance of ever living up to it's "Don't be Evil" slogan, as if the fact they dropped that slogan wasn't sufficient evidence in itself.
One of the most blatant hypocrisies I've seen recently is it's pissing and moaning about how the right to be forgotten is censorship, and how the European court shouldn't rule to force it to delete personal data it has obtained illegally globally from it's systems given this is currently in front of the court, and yet at the same time it's act
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Google dropped the "don't be evil" for "be good" as a slogan a few years ago. This is very telling, because that's the fundamental difference between the system used in Soviet Union and other major dictatorships vs the system used in the West.
Western liberal systems dictate what you SHOULD NOT do. By default, everything that isn't expressly forbidden is allowed. This curbs the tyrannical nature of trying to establish lawful order over people and enable society to function.
"Be good" is an example of a system
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Which is what we're seeing here. Conservatives do things that are not classified as "good" just by being conservatives in progressive view.
No. If you defend the actions and ideals of NAZI"S...you are a fucking bad person, whether you are conservative or liberal. When that's done, and a forum kicks the worthless piece of shit off, that isn't because they're conservative (or liberal), it's because they're fucking NAZI sympathizers spreading hate speech. Grow a fucking brain.
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And this is an excellent example of a religious zealot. Facts don't matter. History don't matter. Reality don't matter. All that matters is the religious dogma, and anyone who isn't espousing it is the enemy. And enemy must be labelled a heretic. Which for progressives is "nazi". Doesn't matter if the target actually committed heresy. That would be thinking in liberal terms.
It's sufficient that opponent opposes the dogma. He's not doing good. That means he's a nazi.
You made my point quite well for me. Thank
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For some people, it is so hard to understand the actions of a good and decent person that they need to find a criticism to make themselves feel better.
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they will find someone to fill the gap
H-1B from China, No Doubt!
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He's avoiding "resume slime."
He's young and has his whole career ahead of him.
He can point to this moment as one that defines him as a valuable asset any where in the world.
Hell, he may wind up in China.
He's got the chops [linkedin.com].
- Google
Senior Research Scientist
Google
May 2016 – September 2018 2 years 5 months
- Stanford University
Assistant Professor Of Mathematics
Stanford University
November 2014 – May 2016 1 year 7 months
- Stanford, CA
Georgia Institute of Technology
Assistant Professor of Computational Science and Engineering
Georgia Institute of Technology
November 2013 – October 2014 1 year
Atlanta, GA
Education
Stanford University
Stanford University
Postdoctoral, Applied Mathematics
2013 – 2013
The University of Texas at Austin
The University of Texas at Austin
Doctor of Philosophy - PhD, Computational and Applied Mathematics
2009 – 2012
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Possible on Apple? And on Microsof? And IBM? (Score:1)
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I can, for the most part I expect they would just resign for "personal reasons". These companies have their share of turnover, even in the senior positions. I am sure many had been for values.
Meanwhile, back in the US ... (Score:1)
Google works with the NSA to spy on everyone in the US and most of the rest of the world too.
Google is not your friend.
It is a monster.
For some of us this is already apparent.
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Resignation is far more ethical then sabotage.
Sabotaging a project, may not have desired effect, and you could make the situation worse. Especially with this Google/China relationship. China has very fragile forces trying to gain more free speech and uncensored ideas. Getting a Censored Google is a small step in that direction, if the project has been sabotaged it could push the group in power favoring a closed system to push back twice as hard.
The standard tyrant debate.
The peasants are not happy and are
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That's some Tyrant you have there.
The people have a problem, he addresses it, they go into revolt creating new problems, He addresses the new problems.
The stop all food rations is of course a straw man. If he wanted to practice genocide, pre-emptive strike prior to their being an organized armed resistance is the way to go.
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The point is if you are in a bad situation when a mediocre fig leaf is given. Running like nothing was given without any sort of compromise even short term, could bite back harshly. Especially if you are not dealing with a good guy, who has a lot of power.
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True, but they were Living under a Tyrant and Starving. They have just move to living under a Tyrant. This token olive branch would at least bring in a token response back. Say by not revolting for a few months, seeing if you can open a dialog. In general showing if he gives something he will get something back, this will increase the chance of him giving again. However an insult will just be a harsh attack back.
I am not saying revolting is wrong, or the tyrant is in the right. However there are conseque
Re: Ethical dilemma: resignation or sabotage? (Score:2)
Well, you know (Score:4, Insightful)
The tech world are not all that into free speech anymore, specially not those coming out of Silicon Valley. ;)
Came to say the same thing. (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems pretty ripe to claim Google is forfeiting values in China, when it's applying the very same values of control over the populace in the U.S. by removing many kinds of YouTube videos it does not like, either for content or ideology.
If you are removing content based on ideology, you have no reason to claim any moral high ground over China.
Re:Came to say the same thing. (Score:4, Interesting)
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You want to see something that no longer exists? How would they do that?
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One would provide a corroborating link to some reputable news outlet talking about it.
Or to some other site where the video is now hosted. I keep seeing embedded ads here, er I mean comments about how there are other platforms for "controversial" speech, and how people are moving there. Surely some of these poor deplatformed snowflakes have reuploaded their videos elsewhere?
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Can you give some examples of videos they've removed that you believe should have been kept? I feel like I can't really give an opinion on it until I actually see the kinds of things they're removing.
That's just it, you cannot see it anymore..
Remember Diamond and Silk? They got de-monetized by U-Tube. They lost subscribers and lost income from this. Facebook even banned them but puts them back, but only after the political shit storm hits about it.
A number of "gun videos" got deleted from U-Tube a few months ago too. Why? Not because they where advocating violence or anything sinister, but because they contained imagery of guns, some being fired at gun ranges (gasp), and even had discussions and v
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Can you give some examples of videos they've removed ... I can't really give an opinion on it until I actually see
I honestly assumed your post was an well-crafted work of sarcasm (which I did appreciate BTW) but equally I applaud those who actually gave a range of real responses. :-)
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Not doubting you, since that's the kind of thing Google might pull, but do you have a credibly sourced reference? I'd like to read about that.
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Machining channels which involve firearm parts are another.
More moral in China than in the US (Score:2)
IMO, Google would have higher moral by censoring in China than it does by censoring in America.
In China, censorship is the law. The Chinese people chose their leaders and they approved censorship law. People's representatives also decide what should be censored and they have voluntary armies of people working on censorship. They also have the legislative means (although difficult) to change that (censorship or what should be censored). That's not to say it is democratic, as the representation of minorities
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The Chinese people chose their leaders and they approved censorship law.
That seems wrong...
However I agree with your overall point and sub-points otherwise. I can't fault companies for doing business respecting the laws of countries they can operate in, as you say where I have an issue is with trying to impose the will of a tiny minority over free countries.
Shocking (Score:2)
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World isn't black and white. They could be thinking that engaging with China will change things for the better. I could picture China making some concessions to have Google do business in their country. Most changes doesn't occur overnight and it often arrive slowly. I would argue incremental changes are better since abrupt changes are result of violence or lead to violence.
200 people have already applied for his job (Score:2)
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Unfortunately, many people will be willing to take his place.
Yes, because is *always* because of the money or fame.
Just the beginning of censorship (Score:2)
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Wait until Google starts censoring what can be seen and said in the West
Why wait ? it's here now
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=goog... [duckduckgo.com]
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There was a war over personal computing and it has been lost by the good guys. Now people around the world are starting to [bbc.co.uk] pay for it. [theguardian.com]
Ehh decentralization and a peer to peer web are still possible. They just haven't been very desirable. The more evil the giants get the better they look.
Mantra (Score:2)
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read the word "real life"
Europe next? (Score:1)
What will they do when Google has to implement similar European requirements of pre-filtering and removing "content inciting violence"? Or is that only when countries we don't like do stuff like that?
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Geez, it's raining ACs today :)
Only one thing worse than being evil for Google (Score:2)
devil's advocate? (Score:2)
Why didn't this researcher resign over the 2nd instance?
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You can read the wikipedia article on Nazi's in Germany, but you can't read about the Tiananmen Square protests in China.
Re:devil's advocate? (Score:5, Informative)
If I were to take a contrarian view of this, I would ask: "What is the difference between Google censoring search results based on the public security laws of China, versus Google censoring search results based on the copyright laws of the USA and EU?"
The difference is that in the USA it's legal to include as much of a copyrighted work as necessary for criticism or to otherwise make a point, but in China if you include information that the government doesn't want you to share, you get broken up for parts and your organs are sold to the highest bidder.
Re: devil's advocate? (Score:2)
I hope Chinese organs are of a higher quality than their other products. Otherwise "the highest bidder" won't be bidding much.
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To continue the contrarian view, so this is a good thing? One person is sacrificed to save the lives of many and even better they let the almighty market distribute the salvation. It's a glorious combination of community and capitalism.
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To continue the contrarian view, so this is a good thing? One person is sacrificed to save the lives of many and even better they let the almighty market distribute the salvation. It's a glorious combination of community and capitalism.
It's a combination of community and capitalism, all right, but it's not glorious. It's tyrannical. The many do not have any freedom if the few do not have them, either.
NSA spying and murderbot OS was ok though? (Score:2)
Google's always had a cozy relationship with the Deep State, and has been helping the Pentagon develop software for drones used to blow up people that have never done a thing to the United States, in countries where war has not been declared. But the straw the breaks the camel's back for this guy, is giving the Chinese government a fraction of the capability enjoyed by the CIA/NSA/FBI?
And please, nobody come in with the line that Google's code is to make drones more accurate so they kill fewer innocent bys
Re: NSA spying and murderbot OS was ok though? (Score:3, Interesting)
You don't really believe all that nonsense, do you?
It's like you copy-pasted a couple paragraphs from an official KGB "news release".
Really aren't that willfully ignorant, are you? (Score:2)
Secret program gives NSA, FBI backdoor access to Apple, Google, Facebook, Microsoft data [theverge.com]
Re: Really aren't that willfully ignorant, are you (Score:2)
The linked article - and the sections you quoted - literally has absolutely nothing to do with the steam of nonsense you originally posted. But your kneejerk desire to call everyone "fascist" certainly reinforces the accuracy of my original assessment ...
Re: APK FAKEname do-nothing motherfucker (Score:2)
See subject "APK" (fake name do-nothing nobody): You're a "ne'er-do-well" chatterbox (all talk & no work BETTER than mine) & you proved it.
APK
P.S.=> Don't take "potshots" @ your BETTERS like me you CHUMP (& I can say that since you ARE obviously a NOBODY chump do-nothing vs. me)... apk
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Obama bombed a Doctors Without Borders hospital and sent gunners in to kill the fleeing nurses and patients. Check their own website here. [msf.org]
"The attacks took place despite the fact that MSF had provided the GPS coordinates of the trauma hospital to the US Department of Defense, Afghan Ministry of Interior and Defense and US Army in Kabul as recently as Tuesday, 29 September. The attack continued for more than 30 minutes after we first informed Resolute Support and US military officials in Kabul and Washingt
Re: NSA spying and murderbot OS was ok though? (Score:2)
There's so much lunacy in your comment that it's obvious you're suffering from Obama Derangement Syndrome. The only thing you got right (and the only thing which is supported by your "sources") is that a hospital was bombed in Afghanistan. Everything else is some sick fantasy you concocted.
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Re: NSA spying and murderbot OS was ok though? (Score:2)
No, it's not a crazy conspiracy theory; it's a really stupid label which basically just means "government". The crazy conspiracy theories are all the other things which nutty people ascribe to this "deep state".
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Re: NSA spying and murderbot OS was ok though? (Score:2)
Oh, it is utterly stupid. As I said, that extra shit you're tacking on to it is the retarded conspiracy theory part.
Don't be evil... (Score:2)
oh wait.... that doesn't apply anymore.
Do the right thing. There... way more open to interpretation.
Carry on.
Google is censored worldwide already (Score:1)
Re: Google is censored worldwide already (Score:2)
Exactly. The EU now wants their "right to be forgotten" to apply worldwide. EU censorship is good. But Chinese censorship is bad,and they would howl if China insisted on worldwide application of Chinese rules.
So: kudos to this guy, but his objections are too narrow.
Clash of the SJW titans (Score:2)
Who to root for?
On the one hand, China clearly does not derive from Europeans, so they must be good. OTOH, they clearly do some not so good things ...
And Google has to be good for being on the "right" side of so many issues and "nudging" people in the progressive direction, yet here they are willing to sell their souls for money in China, which is bad ...
Enough to make one's head hurt.
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Your "clash of the SJW titans" seemes to be something that you've invented entirely yourself. For example:
On the one hand, China clearly does not derive from Europeans, so they must be good.
This seems to be a "viewpoint" held exclusively by people like you*.
And Google has to be good for being on the "right" side of so many issues and "nudging" people in the progressive direction,
Except eh sort of people you're whining about seem to complain an awful lot about google.
Enough to make one's head hurt.
Well, with
I don't blame the guy (Score:2)
Sometimes you have to lead by example and make damned sure that people know you're doing it. If enough key people leave Google then maybe they'll get the idea that the direction they're going is wrong and counterproductive in the long term.
Reality (Score:2)
For the vast majority of the human species. . . . Wealth will always trump Morals / Ethics
Early on, Google had delusions about doing the right thing, but money corrupts everything it touches and you see where Google is today.
Imagine where they will be tomorrow :|
His a white male... (Score:2)
Being a white male, possibly even straight (gasp), his career at google would have been limited anyways.
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Or not (as a VERY small number of people have chosen to do) - everybody has their price, and he clearly wasn't offered enough.
Not everyone has their price. Although that has more to do with what other options a person has access to. I make good money in a career I enjoy, so even an extra $100k in salary wouldn't get me to do a job I hate or that I'm morally opposed to. But if I was making minimum wage, I would likely take a job I was morally opposed to for a $100k raise. Once you're high enough on Maslow's hierarchy of basic needs, it takes for less sacrifice to do what you consider to be the right thing.
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Not everyone has their price. Although that has more to do with what other options a person has access to. I make good money in a career I enjoy, so even an extra $100k in salary wouldn't get me to do a job I hate or that I'm morally opposed to. But if I was making minimum wage, I would likely take a job I was morally opposed to for a $100k raise. Once you're high enough on Maslow's hierarchy of basic needs, it takes for less sacrifice to do what you consider to be the right thing.
I'd agree with this. Somet
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While there are aways some people who will do anything for money, it makes it an awful lot easier to do anything if not doing so involves not eating or making rent. I think that's a good argument for raising the standard of living for the poorest.
TPTB can't permit that for the same reason they can't permit a working education system... their dominance won't survive it.