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Transportation Businesses EU

VW Plans A $ 22K Electric Car To Compete With Tesla, Transition From Combustion Engines (reuters.com) 317

An anonymous reader quotes Reuters: Volkswagen intends to sell electric cars for less than 20,000 euros ($22,836) and protect German jobs by converting three factories to make Tesla rivals, a source familiar with the plans said... Plans for VW's electric car, known as "MEB entry" and with a production volume of 200,000 vehicles, are due to be discussed at a supervisory board meeting on Nov. 16, the source said... The November 16 strategy meeting will discuss Volkswagen's transformation plan to shift from being Europe's largest maker of combustion engine vehicles into a mass producer of electric cars, another source familiar with the deliberations said.

VW's strategy shift comes as cities start to ban diesel engine vehicles, forcing carmakers to think of new ways to safeguard 600,000 German industrial jobs, of which 436,000 are at car companies and their suppliers.... The shift from combustion engines to electric cars would also cost 14,000 jobs at VW by 2020 as it takes less time to build an electric car than a conventional one and because jobs will shift overseas to battery manufacturers.

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VW Plans A $ 22K Electric Car To Compete With Tesla, Transition From Combustion Engines

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  • Making a diesel engine run so quiet that can pretend to be an EV!
  • Lol. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by WindBourne ( 631190 ) on Saturday November 10, 2018 @06:42PM (#57623438) Journal
    Yes, VW, Daimler, BMW, GM, Ford, fiat-chrysler, Nissan, etc have spent the last 5-7 years telling us how they would beat Tesla. Now, like cold fusion, it will happen real soon.
    • Re: Lol. (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Nissan is already beating Tesla.

    • They have invested in computer graphics division to create press releases. Pretty soon they will start thinking about investing in battery technology.
      • Ya, I totally agree with you. The word vaporware needs to be used on the endless stream of press releases from mainstream auto manufacturers about their real-soon-now EVs. âoeWeâ(TM)re going to do this too, real soon nowâ was a Microsoft tactic back in the day when they needed time to build a competing product with their slow moving monopolistic behemoth of a company.

        Big changes are coming to the auomotive market over the next few years. Not going to be pretty.

        • Is it vaporware when BMW has been shipping EVs since 2013? They're pretty niche so far but I see more of them in Europe than Teslas. At this point the EV drivetrain should be pretty straightforward (thanks to Tesla for pushing some development there too) so yeah once mainstream manufacturers get in pop switch over, it wouldn't be very pretty for Tesla since they'd have significant manufacturing, supply chain and quality expertise advantages.

          • Did you check out Audiâ(TM)s big e-tron release? Did you find the actual vehicle as underwhelming as I did? How much money have they poured into that? Formula-e and everything?

            The e-golf. The i3. Whatâ(TM)s the range on these? These are not serious competitors to Tesla. Weâ(TM)ll have to see if the Porsche Taycan is a real contender. Iâ(TM)m hopeful, but I am beginning that think that these massive automotive corporate dinosaurs canâ(TM)t do it.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      And some of them actually have.

      Hyundai has the Kona out, which has better-than-Tesla range and much higher spec at a fraction of the cost. Includes reliable autopilot and better driving aids. Kia is releasing their Niro soon too, which is similar but a bit larger.

      Outside of the US Nissan and Renault really pioneered EVs. The widespread charging networks in Europe and Japan are mostly down to demand that they created with the Leaf and Zoe. Tesla is a small player in those markets and the M3 isn't anywhere in

    • You are confused, the big automakers have been doing the proper R&D to make an electric car that will be affordable and profitable. Tesla has failed to do that, has no idea how to do that. So it circles the drain and Musk losing his mind. Tesla pisses away money and has no long term plan to get profitable

      • You are confused, the big automakers have been doing the proper R&D to make an electric car that will be affordable and profitable. Tesla has failed to do that, has no idea how to do that.

        Except we now know that, just like Munro and Assoc. said, Tesla is bringing in around $10,000 for each nicely-specced Model 3 they sell. Their only problem is volume, and they are addressing it. You have no clue what you're running your suck about.

        • by dfghjk ( 711126 )

          Since when is a "nicely-specced Model 3" affordable? What percentage of Teslas are leased rather than purchased? There's a reason no one wants to buy a Tesla, they don't want to get stuck owning a used one. Buyers currently lack confidence in the long term value of electric vehicles and Teslas are expensive.

          Tesla has far more problems that just volume, starting with their general incompetence as a car company. Literally any other car company on earth could put them under. The fact that hasn't happened on

    • Yes, VW, Daimler, BMW, GM, Ford, fiat-chrysler, Nissan, etc have spent the last 5-7 years telling us how they would beat Tesla. Now, like cold fusion, it will happen real soon.

      To be fair, no they haven't. Hell Daimler's CEO flat out said he sees no future in EVs and is banking on his business existing for many years. In the meantime the Renault-Nissan alliance's efforts for all electric vehicles absolutely dwarfs Tesla in the rest of the world, but Americans don't like small cars and are obsessed with the idea of having to have unlimited miles on a charge so the cars haven't taken off at all in the USA.

      All of Tesla's vehicles combined sold less in Europe y-t-d that BMW's i3 shipm

      • by DeBaas ( 470886 )

        The Model S sales are also lagging behind the VW e-golf, and the Leaf / Zoe absolutely dominate the industry.

        The model S is a car in a size and price range that doesn't sell nearly as well in Europe as the segment that the Golf, Leaf and Zoe are in. It would be interesting to see what happens when the model 3 gets to be widely available in Europe.
        In fact if I compare number of model S cars on the road to the larger BMW's and Mercedes's where I live in Europe they do remarkably well, especially for an American built car.

        • What Americans don't grasp (and that is aimed at true Americans nitpicking about e-vehicles and Elon who is actually from South Africa): in Europe the commute distance is rather short. While there are people that actually need to go to work about 100 miles, and back another 100 miles, they can recharge their vehicle at the workplace. And most people hardly drive more than 10miles to work and 10miles back, if they spent another 5miles on the way home shopping that would already be exaggerating.

          With nitpickin

  • VW has been in the business of announcing future electric cars for many years. And sure, they built successful electric racing cars, like for the Pike's Peak challenge. But an actually sold electric car for the masses - I will believe no sooner than seeing it on offer, with a 22k$ price tag, at the next VW outlet.
    • I was called by a VW salesperson last year, because my current VW is in the two digits age, and at that time he said that VW will launch electric cars based on their new platform in 2019. As this came from a person in VW who actually sell cars, I assume it is official information. So they have announced them, but they have also announced when they will be launched, so what is the problem?

      Also, in addition to the racing car, they sell the reasonably successfull e-UP and e-Golf.
  • by FrankSchwab ( 675585 ) on Saturday November 10, 2018 @06:56PM (#57623472) Journal

    If they build a $22,000 car that has 300 miles of range, does 0-60 in 5 seconds, and carries 4 adults comfortably, they'll sell millions of them.

    And Tesla will have won.
    https://www.tesla.com/blog/sec... [tesla.com]

    • by bob4u2c ( 73467 )
      Yes, bring on the EV's. The more companies making EV's mean the more they have to complete with each other and the lower the price will become. That whole supply and demand thing.

      So sure, bring it on VW. If the car turns out to be a lemon, well at least it will still bring down the price of other cars.
      • by xlsior ( 524145 ) on Saturday November 10, 2018 @07:40PM (#57623624)
        Yes, bring on the EV's. The more companies making EV's mean the more they have to complete with each other and the lower the price will become. That whole supply and demand thing.

        ...Except it may actually increase the cost, since there's only so much Lithium available to make batteries with. Almost 50% of the global lithium supply is bought up by battery manufacturers already, to handle the current demand. Not a ton of room for growth there.
        • by whoever57 ( 658626 ) on Saturday November 10, 2018 @07:43PM (#57623638) Journal

          More Lithium can be mined. The global supply can be increased.

          Cobalt is the element that battery manufacturers worry about.

        • Do you know how much money has been spent in prospecting for oil?

          Do you know how much money has been spent in prospecting for Lithium ?

          Do you think the known lithium reserves are all the lithium there is in the world?

        • Almost 50% of the global lithium supply is bought up by battery manufacturers already, to handle the current demand.

          I see what you did there.

          If there's a limit then it'll be hit soon enough no matter who's making the vehicles.

    • by DogDude ( 805747 )
      And Tesla will have won.

      No, everybody on the planet will have won.
    • I see what you have done. Brilliant. Stuck in a "If " at the start of the sentence. Very true.
    • by dfghjk ( 711126 )

      I don't see how another company having a successful model means Tesla won since Tesla hasn't done anything to enable it for anyone else. Furthermore, VW selling "millions of them" may very well mean Tesla's demise. Hardly a win.

      Also, you assume no competition. It's possible to meet those targets and fail anyway if someone else does it better. Only Tesla takes for granted no competition, the real car companies understand that they need to get it right before they risk their future. Meanwhile, Tesla ind

  • You dont need a big car with the knew batteries.
    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward

      You dont need a big car with the knew batteries.

      How would you no that?

  • Good! Hurry up! I love my VW's, and I'd love to have an electric VW. Teslas are ugly, overpriced, and the UI is awful.
  • by Rick Schumann ( 4662797 ) on Saturday November 10, 2018 @08:06PM (#57623702) Journal
    The end of the internal combustion engine as a staple of ground vehicles is in progress, like it or not, and the age of the ubiquitos electric vehicle is dawning, like it or not. I, for one, think it'll be great; I've worked on ICE-based vehicles, in one form or another, my entire life, and let's face it: after a certain point in time, they became a real pain in the ass to deal with, both in complexity and in cost, even if you do the work yourself. Also, front wheel drive ICE vehicles with a manual trainsmission, replacing a clutch? Step 1: 'remove engine from vehicle'. That kills it for most home mechanics. Automatic transmissions? Over-complicated and expensive, and you can't rebuild one at home. And so on. I've never owned an electric vehicle yet, but I can just imagine how much less messy, complicated, and expensive they'll be to maintain, and with so many fewer moving parts, how little maintenance and repair they'll actually need.

    Someone will now inevitably come along and point out how much it'll cost (at current prices) to replace all the battery packs in an EV. To that I say "So what?" As EVs become more and more ubiquitos, and battery technology and manufacturing techniques improve, as well as volume manufactured (and re-manufactured) increase, the price will go down, not up. At-home high-capacity charging stations will be more and more common in public places, and I'd imagine become a standard amenity when new homes are built (if not mandated in some states; California, I'm looking at you when I say that).

    You can't even complain that they're slow. There'll be a new age of high-performance in the form of souped-up EVs.

    The more big companies that get on board with this, the better.
    • The IC Engine is very unsuitable for vehicular use. The only they have going for them is the very short refueling time.

      With over night charging, you need to use fast charge only on long distance travel.

      Think about the number of days you have driven more than 300 miles in one day. Then ignore the first fill up of that trip, and count only the remaining fill ups. How many times did you do second or third fillup? You will need on the road charging only for those fill ups.

      People who have never owned EV do

    • The maintenance savings on an electric come from routine maintenance like break-pads and oil changes. When it comes to catastrophic failures comparable to a automatic-transmission failure, well we don't really have any data on the long-term reliability of EV's since they have been on the market for less on a decade but most likely you will be wanting to pay for the extended warranty package for as long as they allow you since the very expensive battery-pack will require regular replacement for the life of t
      • by shilly ( 142940 )

        Um. Battery packs are showing 80% state of health at 100k+ miles. So battery pack replacement might be regular, but is not going to be frequent. McKinsey did a study estimating that an EV might routinely be expected to travel 1m miles(!) before being scrapped, which changes the economics of the market dramatically.

      • We do have very good data on the reliability of electric power trains.

        Diesel -electric locomotives took over the rail roads in USA in 1950. All of them are electric drive trains. There are pure electric trains/trams/street cars with overhead wires. Traction motor reliability is astounding.

        It it interesting with the diesel electric locomotive. All the maintenance stops service the diesel engine. 16 cylinder 4800 HP to 6000 HP behemoths. The traction motors hardly get touched. These engines are not your t

    • I too have been working on ICE vehicles most of my life, starting with a string of 60's musclecars in the 70's. I enjoyed the simple brute power of nicely tuned big block V8s blocks then, and I appreciate the technical elegance (and drivability) of the computer controlled ICE engines of today. I have pulled the engine in my front wheel drive car to replace the transmission input shaft seal so I can do that. But as I am pondering whether it is worth it to do a computer upgrade tune, including new MAP sen

    • Let's ask a simple question, that nobody seems to have pointed out really. Where do all the people who don't have a house go to charge their cars overnight? Also who's going to pay for all these charging stations?

      If you live in a city where you have to park on the street, well you better hope someone wants to invest in curbside charging stations and wants to deal with the hassle of vandals screwing with the cables.

      If you live in an apartment building I guess you'll have to enjoy higher rent to subsidize yo

      • If you live in a city where you have to park on the street, well you better hope someone wants to invest in curbside charging stations and wants to deal with the hassle of vandals screwing with the cables.

        It'll happen. Cities like clean air, and the investments are modest. Vandals screwing with the cables is not a bigger problem than vandals breaking your windows is right now.

        At the bottom line, there will be an up-front charge for the investments, but over time, the higher efficiency and simpler design of the EV will save all of us money. And of course, supply of oil is limited, so we don't have a choice, really.

      • In Norway (one of the countries with the highest percentage EVs) there are charging stations being built in many places. Gas stations, shopping malls,.. many companies offer charging for employees.

        There are still challenges around home charging, but with close to 40% of new cars being EVs (plus waiting lists for most models), people seem to have found solutions.
    • Automatic transmissions? Over-complicated and expensive, and you can't rebuild one at home.

      Yes, you can. You may need some special tools. I've been able to get the book on rebuilding my slush box all two times that I've checked into it. (1992 F250 with E4OD, 1998 A8 Quattro with ZF5HP42A.)

  • But will it have a lächerlich mode?

  • by 140Mandak262Jamuna ( 970587 ) on Saturday November 10, 2018 @10:06PM (#57624074) Journal
    It is lame to announce 22K Battery car in 2020. Come on, you need to out do Elon.

    Announce a 15K car in 2025 that runs on Atmospheric Engine, that gets free energy using the magnetic monopole and tapping into the zero point energy and the critical ingredient for the project, the red mercury has been secured. Then you are talking.

    Er, what? no one would take such an announcement seriously?

    Well, what makes you think they think other announcements and promises from that diesel cheat device innovator seriously?

    • They should absolutely take $1000 preorders for a $15K car that will ship in 2020 but then deliver a $40k car in 2025 instead. Like Tesla.

      • Very clearly Tesla has more credibility with the people. They lined up to pay the deposit. 80% of them are patiently waiting. Can any legacy car maker boast such faithful customer base? The valuation of TSLA stock is based on that.
  • Literally anything could compete with Tesla right now. Their incredibly important invention is an overpriced, un-repairable, and their company is based on lies to get more investor money. Don't even get me started on the hyperloop aka the disastrous crash generator. You could put an upgraded battery pack in a Barbie jeep for kids and compete with Tesla. Once a company that isn't all flash and no substance mixed with rip-off prices takes electric cars seriously and can price them appropriately and build them
    • Makes you why they have done so? Doesn't it?

      You bring up a very good point. If it is as easy as they have told you, why haven't they done it?

  • by Tom ( 822 ) on Sunday November 11, 2018 @04:57AM (#57624764) Homepage Journal

    are due to be discussed at a supervisory board meeting

    That is all you need to know.

    They have plans. They don't have a prototype yet, nor a factory setup, nor a delivery schedule nor final pricing or performance numbers. Any or all of those can still change dramatically.

    We will see what happens when you can actually buy this car. Until then there is nothing to see.

    • Good. Maybe they have time to read this advice before they start designing:
      Dear automakers: when we shop around for an EV, we are looking for a conveyance, not for a d*mn lifestyle statement that virtue-signals our greenness. We want a normal looking car, not someone's idea of "the future of urban transportation", and we certainly don't need all those hideous light blue accents on the exterior. Why do you think Tesla has done so well?
    • And the plans are so likely to be rejected by the supervisory board, they want to do a press release and hope to create enough buzz and PR to get some reluctant concessions from the board.

      For every Tesla-Killer they have on the drawing board, there are several Tesla-Killer-Killers on the supervisory board.

  • Not news. Wishful thinking like all those stupid "miracle battery" posts

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