MIT Says We're Overlooking a Near-Term Solution To Diesel Trucking Emissions (arstechnica.com) 96
Despite efforts from Tesla, Daimler, Nikola and Siemens to reduce emissions from heavy-duty, diesel-powered trucks, either by producing their own electric- or hydrogen-powered alternatives, "trucking in the U.S. is still driven by diesel-fueled, compression-ignition (CI), internal combustion engines," reports Ars Technica. According to a new paper from MIT researchers, "the best way forward is not to wait for all-electric or hydrogen-powered semis, but to build a plug-in hybrid electric (PHEV) truck with an internal combustion engine/generator that can burn either gasoline or renewable ethanol or methanol." From the report: Such a setup preserves the range and affordability that's expected of diesel long-haul trucks while significantly reducing the emissions associated with diesel. To boot, it's a near-term solution; no waiting for battery weight to fall or hydrogen refueling stations to be installed. [T]here are some distinct problems with all-electric and all-diesel trucks that a hybrid flex-fuel truck could solve. First, freight companies are looking for the cheapest way to transport goods from point A to point B, so expensive electric vehicles don't make short-term economic sense, especially if you're competing with other freight companies using cheaper diesel engines.
Using flex-fuel gasoline-alcohol engines has also been shown to reduce nitrogen oxide emissions by 90 percent, the MIT researchers wrote, if the emissions reduction system on the truck uses a three-way catalyst (TWC) instead of the diesel-focused selective catalytic reduction (SCR). (The paper notes that this isn't theoretical. A 90-percent reduction in tailpipe NOx from diesel has already been achieved in light-duty gas vehicles and in the heavy-duty Cummins Westport 9 liter natural gas engine.) A flex-fuel gasoline-alcohol engine could also help freight companies achieve "both the lowest air pollution and lowest greenhouse gas emissions when the internal combustion engine operates," the paper notes. In addition, "the relative use of battery power, gasoline power, and alcohol power can be optimized for meeting varying prices and availability of these energy sources as a long-haul truck travels through various regions."
Using flex-fuel gasoline-alcohol engines has also been shown to reduce nitrogen oxide emissions by 90 percent, the MIT researchers wrote, if the emissions reduction system on the truck uses a three-way catalyst (TWC) instead of the diesel-focused selective catalytic reduction (SCR). (The paper notes that this isn't theoretical. A 90-percent reduction in tailpipe NOx from diesel has already been achieved in light-duty gas vehicles and in the heavy-duty Cummins Westport 9 liter natural gas engine.) A flex-fuel gasoline-alcohol engine could also help freight companies achieve "both the lowest air pollution and lowest greenhouse gas emissions when the internal combustion engine operates," the paper notes. In addition, "the relative use of battery power, gasoline power, and alcohol power can be optimized for meeting varying prices and availability of these energy sources as a long-haul truck travels through various regions."
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Why not focus on transcontinental hyper-loop shipping lanes.
High costs to build out the infrastructure, maybe? This is a proposal that can be adopted now as opposed to 10-15 years from now. Why should we let the perfect be the enemy of the good?
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Why not focus on transcontinental hyper-loop shipping lanes.
High costs to build out the infrastructure, maybe? This is a proposal that can be adopted now as opposed to 10-15 years from now. Why should we let the perfect be the enemy of the good?
I say to both of you.. I seer your hyperloop and raise you one Thundefoot [google.com]!
Re: Lets not stand on ceremony (Score:5, Interesting)
Walmart is leading on electric, with huge turbines at many DCs they want to power trucks for local runs. Long haul takes hybrid.
I can tell you from driving rigs there are two elephants in the room on waste: 1) idle time 2) wasted kinetic energy. 1 You need to decouple AC & heat from engine, and have it powered through mandated electric plugs at truck stops selling kWh for profit, to save $30 a night per truck in idle fuel. 2 is huge, itâ(TM)s shocking to drive hundreds of miles at 9.2 mpg (at 40 tons) on i5 nb in CA, only to watch your avr mpg for the *whole trip* drop to 6.1 when you get into the mountains. Money bleeding through jake brake that could be saved with Prius style regenerative braking.
The real model you need is something like an 10 liter diesel (shrunken from 12-15 normal size but able to drive) plus electric with maybe 90 miles of range on its own, but mostly doing torque assist and regenerative braking.
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10 years....really depends on the industry. A couple of years ago, the average age of commercial medium and heavy duty trucks was 14.8 years. And it isn't the class 4 or 5 that raise that age. MDTs and HDTs are designed to be serviced and most of the guys I know aren't trading in because the truck is too old, they are doing it because the DRIVER is to old and they want to go to something like a Volvo with iShift to save their knees.
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To bad the Boomer's replaced trains for trucks in the 70's to give themselves jobs.
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Stop trying to trademark things...
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Diesel electric trains run on diesel fuel. I dont think you understand what the term means.
I have a better idea. Send the freight by train hauled by electric locos. Most of the main lines in Europe are already electrified (but obviously not in the USA which is decades behind in rail tech). A lot of industry and distrubution depots in the UK are alongside railways already, because they were originally placed there with rail sidings, now closed. Such sidings could easily be re-instated - only arcane beaucrac
US freight rail (Score:2)
I have a better idea. Send the freight by train hauled by electric locos. Most of the main lines in Europe are already electrified (but obviously not in the USA which is decades behind in rail tech).
No the US is not decades behind in rail tech. The US has a very advanced FREIGHT rail network and it is used far more than in Europe [wikipedia.org]. The US rail network for freight is arguably the best in the world. The US does a shit job in passenger rail for a variety of reasons. But electrifying the rails in the US for freight trains by and large doesn't make much sense given the distances and geography involved. Diesel electric works pretty well for the use cases here.
A lot of industry and distrubution depots in the UK are alongside railways already, because they were originally placed there with rail sidings, now closed.
Rail delivery makes sense if you are getting
Front page Dup! (Score:5, Informative)
It's been a while since we had a both-on-the-front-page dupe!
Re:Front page Dup! (Score:4, Funny)
I feel privileged just to have been able to witness such a remarkable thing. It'll be a great story to tell my grandchildren, if I ever have any.
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It's been a while since we had a both-on-the-front-page dupe!
Kudos. I did notice those dupes eariler, one from msmash, one from BeauHD.
Another problem with /. that I've just discovered: When I was at "-1:13" comments, I didn't see this comment of yours, ceoyoyo. But when I switched to "1:3" comments, your observation showed up. What's with that? I thought the former setting would show all the stuff the latter would, and then some. Is this a issue with /. or with me?
Re: Front page Dup! (Score:1)
Msmash is beauhd
They are all the same person
What makes you think these editors are even human
This place bit the dust back when perens was relevant
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Actually, it's the second time this year.
PS. Actually, it's the second time this year.
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Ethanol, lol (Score:1)
Ethanol may be "renewable" but it certainly is not sustainable. It's a very wasteful ineffcient way to create fuel.
Net loss (Score:2)
Ethanol may be "renewable" but it certainly is not sustainable. It's a very wasteful ineffcient way to create fuel.
Except it isn't actually renewable. In actual practice it is essentially converting diesel fuel into ethanol, often at a net energy loss.
Gasoline? Ethanol? (Score:2, Insightful)
They use diesel because it is considerably more efficient. All this would accomplish is to make a truck that is very expensive and uses a less efficient engine, while also requiring it to be plugged in and charged in order to reach its full potential. I find it highly unlikely that would actually happen.
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B.S. (Score:2)
>> they dont seem to get if everyone owned electric that means we need more power generation.
Nope. More electric energy generation. (Peak) power remains exactly the same, if not decreasing due to growing storage.
>> that means more plants throwing out junk
Nope. Switching all ICEs to electric "throws out" 2.5 times less CO2, and over an order of magnitude less NOX, 3 orders of magnitude less particles etc etc...
>> more battery's that are made out of some pretty nasty stuff
Car Batteries (Pb)
MIT REALLY wants to make sure... (Score:3)
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Deja vu (Score:2)
This seems so familiar... [slashdot.org]
I like trucking! (Score:2)
No idea about this 'PHEV', but I have to say, I like trucking [youtube.com]!
Middle answers can't get support (Score:5, Insightful)
Shipping companies are only interested in cost and getting the jobs done.
Environmentalists will only accept zero emissions because "we only have 12 years left" [theguardian.com] (5 months ago).
There's no constituency for half measures and no tolerance for disagreement.
As a former mechanic... (Score:5, Informative)
As a former diesel mechanic, I would greatly prefer not to have large gasoline tanks hanging off the side of semi trucks. Gasoline is much easier to ignite and burns more vigorously than diesel. Fuel tanks are frequently damaged in accidents, by tire failure, or by road debris. A switch to gasoline means that people will die by fire if this change occurs.
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Not to mention that diesels generally have much greater longevity between overhauls if they're cared for properly. A truck that's in the shop is a truck that's burning money.
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This is likely to be a solvable problem. The lifespan of gassers is constrained by 'value engineering'. If fleet buyers demand more longevity, they'll get it.
Simple stuff like bigger oil filters and better bearings in the accessories (Aternator/starter/water pump) can cut the repairs by a third easily.
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doesn't solve the problem of a gasoline engine needing a very wide RPM range and the wear and tear that puts on engine. short engine life is not an option for trucks
besides, the energy density of gasoline and alcohol is pathetic compared to diesel
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If the gasoline engine is supplying electricity to a hybrid, it doesn't need a very wide RPM range. It can run at optimum RPM at all times except briefly when starting up and shutting down.
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You waste energy doing that conversion, and of course the gasoline has less energy per gallon than diesel... why would a long distance truck operation want it? Diesel can now burn cleaner than gasoline, until we get to economical long distance electric trucks not seeing the need for gasoline and certainly not hybrid... again for long distance runs. Local operation of trucks, and light and medium trucks for city/county use is a totally different story, what you're saying might be great there.
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not for gasoline engine it doesn't, power curve REALLY not flat so just trying to fight that. and of course the latest fad CVT for gasoline engines have a short life too (yes fine for consumer cars that will be disposed of in a few years), but that's not for trucking.
in short, taping a bill and webbed feet onto a pig doesn't make it a duck
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"This is likely to be a solvable problem." -- The last 40 years of truck history shows how wrong that comment is. It's always fun to read couch potato comments.
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I'll play. In the last 40 years gas engines have gone from needing the lifters adjusted every thousand miles and the engine completely worn out at 40K to only needing oil changes in the first 100,000 miles.
When was the last time you saw an actual engine failure not related to oil starvation in less than 100k? I've seen hundreds of Crown Vics with 300k+ on the original engine in fleet service. Why? Because fleet service customers force the OEM to build better kit.
Re:As a former mechanic... (Score:5, Interesting)
So you don't want the truck in the shop you want the battery pack in there. It really looks to be the end of long haul. Instead like a relay race a series of short hauls. Drivers going from depot to depot, how quick that swap is, will drive profitability for larger companies. More drivers going for four hours to the next depot and then driving back, the driver owned rig a thing of the past.
The new profit centre for transport companies generating electricity to fuel their vehicles. Depots can be quite simple, just enough space to drop the trailer, so another truck with a fresh battery pack, takes it over. The truck that dropped it off, swaps battery packs, whilst the driver takes a break and then hauls a trailer back to his home destination, with depots along the entire route. Only suits major transport companies that own the vehicles and they will need to carefully manage vehicles and routes, to ensure trucks always available at those relay depots.
A little bit complex but now, the cargo keeps moving and never stops. Who gives a crap about an idle truck, the amount of money it burns is a fraction of the cost of idle cargo. This system keeps the cargo on the move, keeps drivers close to their home base working 2 four hour shifts, with those home bases distributed along major routers and the trucks can keep moving 24/7 depending upon how well they have been routed, constantly swapping drivers and have empty battery packs forked off and full ones forked on.
No space for owner operator in this market at all. The haulage companies now stepping into the renewable energy market to refuel, TAX FREE, when they generate energy to refuel their vehicles, it's no one's business but theirs. Aligned depots with renewable energy generation options smart. So here's one most people wont think of, close to a major pig farm, process that waste to generate methane to run a power station to feed the trucks battery packs, waiting for the next truck to pull in and swap.
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More drivers going for four hours to the next depot and then driving back, the driver owned rig a thing of the past.
We knew decades ago the DoT logbook system was a collusion between government and corporations to put the small operators out of business. Or, at least my trucker friends were always on about it.
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Or, at least my trucker friends were always on about it.
Yeah, except his point is that the economics will kill independent operators, not the government.
I agree with the top-level post: While the MIT proposal makes sense environmentally, it is fundamentally unsafe to retrofit existing trucks and run with giant gas tanks hanging off the sides.
Also agree with rtb61: All-electric vehicles will fundamentally change the industry.
Once electric is more economical than diesel, things are going to change. And this will happen regardless of government intervention---the g
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I don't think it will ever happen. Here is why there is not need for the people to drive between depots. That is all uncomplicated highway miles and can easily be automated. The technology needed to do that is already basically in existence today. Unlike in passenger space the cost of lidar unit etc is incidental looking at the overall cap ex of a big rig.
Nobody is going to implement all those other infrastructure changes for long haul and not also move to a self driving model at the same time. It will
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That's not because of some magical Diesel properties, but because of the far higher pressures the Diesel engines have to be built much sturdier (and are, hence, heavier).
TFA is talking about a multi fuel engine, that would be a Diesel cycle engine anyway, or maybe a HCCI.
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For sure. Stronger blocks/heads/etc. certainly factor into things, and there's also the fact that diesels tend to develop maximum torque at a substantially lower RPM than gas engines. It wears an engine less to run it at 1800 RPM all the time instead of 4000.
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On the other hand compare aircraft piston motors and jet engines. The latter are far more reliable even though their rotational speed is much higher.
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A mechanic should also note short engine life of gasoline engine compared to diesel, especially under long haul conditions.
13% more energy per volume of diesel compared to gasoline is significant too, and as for alcohol...pfft that stuff is a joke next to diesel, almost half the energy
Re: Biodiesel (Score:2)
Trucks are already burning it, all diesel in many states is a mix. Itâ(TM)s just about production capacity.
Overlooking it or Looking it Over? (Score:2)
Just aksing, you know...
Phosphoros and Nitrogen (Score:2)
No real alternatives (Score:1)
Being in trucking for many decades I have noticed two things. Trucking will reject new technologies that do not save them real money. All electric trucks fail because of the way irregular route trucks run. Many that run 24 hours with team drivers which leave little time to charge batteries. Then you have slip seat companies that save money by having more then one driver use a truck. Alternative fuels are also a problem because they simply are not always available where trucks go. Then there is the obvious o
You don't want gas-powered trucks. (Score:2)
Spilled diesel fuel is a mess. Spilled gasoline is dangerous.
Why no turbines? (Score:3)
I've always wondered why no one has ever successfully tested a hybrid turbine-electric system for large trucks. It would seem as if the ability to burn almost anything would future-proof the system, and since the turbine would charge the batteries, you could run it at a constant speed.
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I've always wondered why no one has ever successfully tested a hybrid turbine-electric system for large trucks. It would seem as if the ability to burn almost anything would future-proof the system, and since the turbine would charge the batteries, you could run it at a constant speed.
I am a turbine engineer. Small gas turbines are very inefficient. 1/2 the efficiency, or less, than a medium or large one.
And the noise. Small turbines are screamers and it is difficult to insulate the sound because the intake and exhaust can only have so much muffling on them. Pedestrians would be above OSHA short term limits for noise exposure. Nobody near a busy road would stand for it.
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What, and the obnoxious church on 1431, just off 183, doesn't call you Evil?
Wow dejavu (Score:2)
Do msmash and beauhd not communicate?
Diesel-Electric school buses (Score:2)
Electric engines with IC power source (Score:2)
Gee, where would that idea ever have come from?
By the bye, next time the crossbuck comes down, don't try to drive around it to beat the train pulled by diesel-electric locomotives....
(Or maybe we could go back to shipping most stuff long distance on *trains*, which get, lessee, how's their ad go? 1 ton 453mi on a gallon?)
No love for NH3? (Score:1)
Sheesh, people. Ain't gonna happen (Score:2)
What is with all the pie-in-the-sky, replace-everything-at-once plans. A large trucking company will order hundreds of trucks at a time, and spec the exact same engine for the last batch of hundreds they bought. The last thing they want to do is have to stock parts for 50 different models in their service centers.
You wanna get electrics into trucking. Start by selling an axle with an integrated motor and small battery pack. Call it an "overdrive" axle to give it a catchy name. All it would do is help w
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And it isn't a pipe dream of an idea:
https://www.trucks.com/2018/05... [trucks.com]
https://www.truckinginfo.com/1... [truckinginfo.com]
This is going to be the way the industry moves forward.