Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
Privacy Technology Your Rights Online

Tenants Win as Settlement Orders Landlords Give Physical Keys Over Smart Locks (cnet.com) 126

Posted by msmash from the setting-precedence dept.
The physical key has prevailed over the smart lock for a group of tenants with privacy concerns. From a report: In a settlement released Tuesday, a judge ordered landlords of an apartment building in New York to provide physical keys to any tenants who don't want to use the Latch smart locks installed on the building last September. The settlement is a first, as there's no legal precedent or legislation deciding how landlords can use smart home technology. Since the technology is relatively new, lawmakers haven't had time to catch up with smart home devices, and this case in New York is one of the few legal challenges to appear in court. It won't set a legal precedent because it's a settlement, but it represents a win for tenants who had issues with smart locks and landlords installing them against their will.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Tenants Win as Settlement Orders Landlords Give Physical Keys Over Smart Locks More

Tenants Win as Settlement Orders Landlords Give Physical Keys Over Smart Locks

Comments Filter:

  • More secure? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Obfuscant ( 592200 ) on Friday May 10, 2019 @01:35PM (#58569848)
    I don't think the tenants realize that the landlord will absolutely be using a master key system. They probably also don't realize how easy it is to figure out what the master is given a copy of the non-master and a handful of blanks.

    • Re:More secure? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, 2019 @01:43PM (#58569904)

      I don't think you realize that this wasn't about security, it was about privacy. How'd you like it if your landlord was tracking when you came in and out of the building, and then that data gets sold to marketers?

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by LynnwoodRooster ( 966895 )
        My smart lock at home tells me when it's used - either by cellphone, punching digits, or using a key. It tracks each and every entrance and exit.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by Uberbah ( 647458 )

          Whooosh

        • It tells YOU. It doesn't screech this information to your landlord, building management, or the stinking "cloud."
          • If I'm the landlord who installed the lock, and registered the lock - then I would know who came and went, and when. The lock doesn't know who you are - it knows who registered it. Which - according to this story - is the landlord. And it will gladly talk to him all he wants.

      • So, add a deadbolt on the inside of the front door. Your personal space is still yours, no matter what a rental agreement might try to claim.

        • Re:More secure? (Score:5, Informative)

          by mysidia ( 191772 ) on Friday May 10, 2019 @03:01PM (#58570476)

          So, add a deadbolt on the inside of the front door. Your personal space is still yours, no matter what a rental agreement might try to claim.

          Sure, you can do that... Unless the lease says otherwise

          (Unless lease says otherwise: you can even change the existing locks in some states, And the landlord cannot change them back.)

          But usually the lease will say you cannot do that, and in that case you add a Deadbolt, then you must have permission first
          and provide the landlord an extra key, otherwise that added deadbolt can be drilled by the landlord at tenant's expense, and it may be grounds for eviction.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by guruevi ( 827432 )

            Tenants typically have the right to change the locks as long as they give the landlord a key. In some states they don't even have to give you a key. A lease contract can state you have to give the landlord a key but they can't prevent you from changing the lock.

          • There's no nefarious reason for the landlord to want a copy of the key. They just don't want the expense of having to hire a locksmith to break into their own unit if the tenant should leave without giving them a copy of the key. (Insurance might require they have a means to access all units in an emergency, although ours doesn't.) Likewise, the restriction in the lease on adding a deadbolt is to prevent the tenant from destroying the door in their first ever attempt to install a deadbolt by themselves.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by rtb61 ( 674572 )

              So don't rent buy. People do realise that the 'landlord' buys the property and rents it to you at a profit after paying interest, so you could cut out the middle man and make those payments direct. If your country, has made it impossible to buy, well, tear down your country and rebuild it so it is possible for the average person to buy a residence within a reasonable distance of employment options. If it is impossible, your system has been corrupted to provide economic preference to those the minority at th

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by rossz ( 67331 )

                So don't rent buy

                Yeah, because anyone can buy a house any time they want. No problem.

                Are you stupid?: No need to answer. We already know.

                • Really, there isn't any reason why you shouldn't be able to buy a home that isn't based entirely on your own poor life choices if you're an able-bodied person with an IQ over 80. I understand that we live in a world of victim culture where whatever moronic decisions you've made are supposed to be off-limits to discussion but those decisions are the only difference between a renter and a home owner. From taking student loans that your prospective degree can never pay off, to choosing to live in a massive cit

            • There's no nefarious reason for the landlord to want a copy of the key.

              Man, you clearly do not have much experience with renting, Cos they sure as fuck do. Where I live theres a legal requirement for the landlord to have a key for emergency entry and inspections (max 4 a year with 2 weeks notice).

              I've had landlords completely ignore the law and just let themselves in, go snooping around in my drawers, and in one case walk into the shower where my girlfriend was cleaning up for work. All completely illegal.

        • Re:More secure? (Score:4, Informative)

          by taustin ( 171655 ) on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:56PM (#58571172) Homepage Journal

          This wasn't about lock on individual apartments, if you bother to read TFA, it's about a single lock on the entrance to the building.

          And while it's mostly about privacy, it's also about practicalities: how do you get in and out of your own home if you can't use the app, or it's not working?

          (In most jurisdictions, the landlord is required to have access in case of emergencies, and has the right to access to inspect under certain conditions. There's very few places where changing the locks and not giving a copy of the new key to the owner isn't grounds for eviction.)

      • Re: (Score:1, Insightful)

        by gregsv ( 631463 )

        Certainly a valid concern, but IMO a better way to address it would be to make it illegal for the landlord to use the data in any way not directly related to building security, and place such harsh penalties on such actions that it wouldn't be worth the risk for the few extra bucks he may get.

        Personally, I would always prefer a physical key over an access fob/card/app/whatever, but as someone that has also managed facilities I certainly understand that it is much simpler, faster, and cheaper to go in the co

        • It's a BS concern in urban buildings. Anyone who wants in will just punch random buzzer numbers until someone expecting delivery buzzes them in.

      • and makeing you pay and added fees for more people, guest fees, fees to have an 3rd party service come in, etc.

      • I don't think this settlement helps with that though. The settlement means they don't have to use the App, which means they can opt out of the app learning that Joe smith went to starbucks at 6pm monday and his wife went to the motel six down the street at 2pm. But... physical keys don't prevent the landlord or latch from learning that the tennants left at 8pm and returned home at 3 AM. (leaving and returning can be differentiated by the use of the key, the app would still know when/if a key was used, and w

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      I don't think the tenants realize that the landlord will absolutely be using a master key system. They probably also don't realize how easy it is to figure out what the master is given a copy of the non-master and a handful of blanks.

      I do think they realize that a physical key will not track their location and access times, unlike the required smartphone application.

      I do not see where the summary or the article made the claim that tenants felt more or less "secure". You seem to be making a bad faith statement for the sake of creating an argument.

    • I don't think people realize how easy it often is to bypass the smart locks either. I don't know anything about Latch specifically, they may be as good as you can reasonably expect a lock to be (which is never impenetrable), but a great many of them are vulnerable to bluetooth or wireless attacks, and traditional bypass methods are always still a threat.

      All you're really looking for in a lock is something that will take an attacker a decent amount of time to bypass - say 10-20 minutes. 10-20 minutes makes i

    • Picking a mechanical lock requires the lock picker to be physically present at each lock picked. Using copies of a master key requires the copies to present at each lock as they are opened.

      Smart locks can be picked simultaneously by someone not present.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by taustin ( 171655 )

      Anybody smart enough to figure out what the master key is will likely also know how to just pick locks. Which is even easier, and quicker. And even an idiot can use (and make) a bump key.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Nethead ( 1563 )

      Or how easy it is to pick or rake a mastered system. There's not enough room for security pins and two chances for each pin.

  • Having been a Land Lord before, this stuff is expensive. Paying to install smart locks, would be a rather big initial investment and if your tenants stay chances are you won't be making up the price in replacing keys anytime soon.

    In terms of security you can just as easily learn how to pick a lock, as to hack these smart systems. Heck while a Land Lord, I helped tenants get back in, by just using a credit card. (then having me to buy and install a new lock afterwords)

    But now if I am a Tenant, and I wanted

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      In terms of security you can just as easily learn how to pick a lock, as to hack these smart systems.

      While technically true, it overlooks one very important fact.

      While learning how to pick a lock is a requirement if you want to pick it yourself, learning how to hack is NOT a requirement if you want to hack it yourself. Just download someone else's program and run it.

      No, using someone else's program is not the same as having a lock picking friend with you. Your friend is not pocket-sized, cannot be instantly duplicated, and cannot be instantly transmitted thousands of miles to any location on earth wi

  • A short-lived win (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Kjella ( 173770 ) on Friday May 10, 2019 @01:50PM (#58569958) Homepage

    So you can't unilaterally do it to existing tenants, but I'm pretty sure any new tenants will have to agree as a condition of their lease. I can understand why the landlord prefers to settle, in a few years it'll be a moot point anyway.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      You must not have read very far.

      "arguing that there were privacy concerns with the Latch smart lock and the app required to get into their own building."

      "Mysak, who's 93, wasn't capable of using a phone and found himself trapped in his home because of the smart locks, McKenzie said. The plaintiffs also had issues with Latch's privacy policy, which said that the app could collect people's location data and use it for marketing purposes. Latch said it didn't do that and was revising its privacy policy."

      They w

    • I doubt that will fly. One of the issues was a tenant in his 90's who couldn't use his phone, and became trapped in his house.

      Requiring smart locks could easily run foul of age and disability discrimination laws, depending on where you live.

      • I doubt that will fly. One of the issues was a tenant in his 90's who couldn't use his phone, and became trapped in his house.

        If this is true, how does the apartment with these locks pass fire safety inspection?

        • Think metaphorically. He probably could leave, but couldn't re-enter without a smart phone, so he was effectively prevented from leaving on pain of being locked out.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by taustin ( 171655 )

            Except, of course, as the landlord pointed out, there was also a keypad that could be used without a phone.

            There's a certain amount of BS on both sides, as usual.

  • Not everyone (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Some people do not have nor want to have a "smart" phone. Can a landlord refuse to rent to people who don't have a "smart"phone? Highly doubtful! It would be better for the landlord to offer tenants a choice.

  • Post codes to buildings on public sites for all to see. Then the building owners may not readily use such systems.

    I wonder how the court would swing if a landlord installed a physical key lock that tracked/monitored access.

    • I wonder how the court would swing if a landlord installed a physical key lock that tracked/monitored access.

      I am sure we would have heard about the cases for the existing systems were there a legal issue.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Ksevio ( 865461 )
      Doesn't seem too smart to post a code to break into your own apartment. Same as posting a clear picture of your key online so someone could cut a copy

  • Settlement (Score:3)

    by phantomfive ( 622387 ) on Friday May 10, 2019 @02:06PM (#58570100) Journal
    A settlement doesn't set precedence.

  • False dichotomy though. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    A lock does not have to be purely mechanic. It just has to be well-designed and *not* infected
    with any of that i/"smart" cancer.

    E.g. it should not have any Internet conncetivity. Nor an "app".

    If it is wireless, which is not necessary, it should be both require you to be close, and assume eavesdropping anyway.
    Encryption should be so simple (e.g. OTP+XOR+ID), that the button press or door knob turn generates enough power to transmit/receive and light a warning light in case of problems.
    And there should be a s

  • Settlement is not "win" (Score:4)

    by Kohath ( 38547 ) on Friday May 10, 2019 @02:20PM (#58570202)

    The story write-up is factually wrong. A settlement is an agreement between the parties. A judge did not "order" keys be issued. Landlords agreed to voluntarily change the locks back in exchange for the tenants dropping their lawsuit. A judge signed off on the agreement.

    The judge made no legal determination on the merits and established no precedent.

    Google "Michael Kozek" if you want to read a more accurately reported news story.

  • Good (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Went through this last year. Building was owned by a corporation operating outside the country, over the last two years they started turning their properties into something you'd expect from a prison. Realtime video was fed back to a security call center, etc. Final straw was this. They couldn't provide even basic information about data retention nor who had access.

    For those saying this was any more secure then a key I disagree. Both can be cloned and at least with a key there is no expectation oth

  • I guess with a smart lock then they can have something to do a time stamp check on the camera. But, the camera is still there and can be viewed at the same convenience. Just have to watch fast forward till they find what they are looking for.

  • I had something similar happen to me. My fiance's condo, which she owned, was located in an HOA controlled building and they decided to replace all of the exterior locks with HID cards. They also instituted a policy that limited any homeowner to 2 cards. This policy was extremely inconvenient for how my fiance lived her life; it meant she could not provide a spare set of keys to a friend, for example.

    I am not a lawyer, but a rudimentary Google search did not reveal whether a homeowner has a legal right to m

  • With digital smart locks, the user has to interact with the locks electronics, which activate logic, and even indicator lights for the keypad (Schlaga locks).
    On the Sabbath and other holidays, Jews are prohibited from changing the state of a system. It is work.
    Orthodox Jews will use a key, as no light is turned on.

    By the way the orthodox rabbinate, are debating the issue as lights from LEDS are not produced by flame, as is an incandescent of florescent bulb. The orthodox Jews are waiting for a ruli

Slashdot Top Deals

He has not acquired a fortune; the fortune has acquired him. -- Bion

Close