Huawei Personnel Worked With China's Military on Research Projects (bloomberg.com) 169
Several Huawei employees have collaborated on research projects with Chinese armed forces personnel, indicating closer ties to the country's military than previously acknowledged by the smartphone and networking powerhouse, Bloomberg reported Thursday. From the report: Over the past decade, Huawei workers have teamed with members of various organs of the People's Liberation Army on at least 10 research endeavors spanning artificial intelligence to radio communications. They include a joint effort with the investigative branch of the Central Military Commission -- the armed forces' supreme body -- to extract and classify emotions in online video comments, and an initiative with the elite National University of Defense Technology to explore ways of collecting and analyzing satellite images and geographical coordinates. Those projects are just a few of the publicly disclosed studies that shed light on how staff at China's largest technology company teamed with the 'People's Liberation Army on research into an array of potential military and security applications.
Like bell labs or at&t and ... (Score:5, Insightful)
motorola and cisco, and juniper and lucent and HPE and IBM and DEC, and GE and Tandem computers, and Cray, and SGI and others did not worked with the USoA military in research projects?
Go figure...
Re: Like bell labs or at&t and ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes but when Huawei does it it's Bad because China.
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Yes but when Huawei does it it's Bad because China.
Well yes, actually. I trust my own government more than I trust China's government.
The bigger difference is that the companies the GP post cited are not owned by the United States government.
Re: Like bell labs or at&t and ... (Score:5, Informative)
Hmm... which government can cause more trouble to you when they find out you do something they don't like?
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Assuming for either case you'd be located where they can get their hands on you, definitely China.
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which government can cause more trouble to you
The one that
* locks up infants and toddlers in detention centers,
* tortures Muslims in Gitmo,
* has police gunning down blacks on the street without trials by the thousands every year,
* conduct massive spying on you,
* conduct massive spying on your friends,
* jailed
* conduct industrial espionage [theguardian.com] on its competitors [cnn.com]
* murdered Natives by the million,
* stole massive amount of technologies in its early days of industrialization [google.com],
* stole massive amount of prime lands from Mexico
* launched endless number of wars aro
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As opposed to:
* Actively and aggressively arrest and illegal immigrants killing them or returning them to North Korea for execution.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_China)
* Forces abortion of excess population and kills or marginalizes parents who have more then allowed number of children,
* tortures any dissident anytime for simply disagreeing with the government many of whom will disappear never to be seen again,
* turns police on peaceful protests and slaughters whole groups wholesale
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Ivan, your country shot down a civilian airliner recently so fuck right off on that shit.
Also, which prison does your country use to torture Muslim prisoners?
Do you even know what your country does to people who cross the border without paperwork?
You said something about "Natives," do you mean like all the groups in Siberia and Central Asia that had their cultures and languages stripped away, and still have no rights or land today? Or like, Georgians in Georgia?
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I'd like to see China lock me up, from where I'm right now. THAT might start World War 3, given the hothead currently in charge.
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Company, Inc is working with Hitler during WWII (full goodwin), but who cares because I'm in the US, right? The Chinese government is incredibly oppressive - more so than ever in recent years - and we should do anything we can to limit their growth and power. Once Xi Jinping steps down as dictator for life and the people are guaranteed basic human rights with a democracy I could care less if they overtake the west. I might even learn Chinese and head over.
"Steps down". :)
Re: Like bell labs or at&t and ... (Score:5, Interesting)
The bigger difference is that the companies the GP post cited are not owned by the United States government.
No, in the US those companies own the US government.
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"No, in the US those companies own the US government."
Which is bad but preferable to the other way around.
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No, in the US those companies own the US government.
In Soviet Russia .... oh, wait a minute
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no mod points, but here's a *grin*
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Well yes, actually. I trust my own government more than I trust China's government.
That's probably a reasonable call. Whatever controversies are associated with the US government, at least we are allowed to talk about them.
not owned by the United States government.
This I would not bank on as a general rule for world governments. If you don't trust a government, private ownership won't be a huge burden so long as that ownership is under a given government's jurisdiction. If a government is not trustworthy, they generally roll through any semblance of private ownership they may have as it suites them. It may be a level of indir
Re: Like bell labs or at&t and ... (Score:5, Insightful)
If you'd trust the Chinese government over the US government it is definitely you who needs to re-evaluate who you trust and your definition of the word "trust" itself.
Debates about trust with regard to the US are relative to government in general under the best circumstances, how things used to be, how things are supposed to be, or relative to other comparable democracies in the world. China is still ruled by Mao's regime, that is like being under Hitler, Stalin, or Mussolini, but with a much much higher torture, genocide, and death toll and modern day technology. Saying a policy is "like nazi germany" to draw a parallel is about how we don't want to start down that path and in jest because there are no real Nazis anymore. Mao's regime has murdered more than Nazi's ever thought of killing and they are still walking their path. None of this is a secret, we've just stopped talking about it because it is inconvenient to think about while exploiting their cheap labor and using them as a garbage dump for plastics we are pretending to recycle.
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"If that isn't a sober realization then I don't know what is...."
If it is a sober realization I think you are doing your math wrong. Even if you are pretending the death of human shields a vicious regime throws in front of itself are on the shooters and not the regime you have poor math skills.
You realize that given the information manipulation and lockdown in China the only ones who know real figures on how many they torture and murder are the government? They could be killing millions a year via those con
Re: Like bell labs or at&t and ... (Score:2)
They could be killing millions a year via those concentration camps..
Isn't that a bit dramatic?? They're not necessarily completely dead, you know; not if some of their organs are still alive.
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"Instead of a bullet to the head, our government just strips away peoples' rights by handing out felony convictions like Tic-Tacs and lets the free markets take care of the rest."
You do have to actually break the law first though, there is actual due process, and we have a democracy where people can vote to change it. We also don't torture and murder the people. If some of the rules tend to hit certain ethnic groups harder they could still always just stop with the behavior despite that and avoid punishment
Re: Like bell labs or at&t and ... (Score:2)
Which one is it
Ever heard of the Cultural Revolution??
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Which one is it, and do you count how many of their own citizens they kill or how many foreigners they kill?
You get different answers depending on the choices.
Tibet.
So just shut right up.
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Re:Like bell labs or at&t and ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, but that knowledge counters the FUD that is needed to compete with non-US companies.
Oh get off your high horse on this.
It's dumb-simple. Stupidly simple. So clear Ray Charles could see it:
BUY TELCO INFRASTRUCTURE FROM YOUR OWN COUNTRY. Is that so hard to understand? If you're China, buy Chinese. If you're America, buy Made in USA. If you're Europe, buy Ericsson.
I expect every telco to spy on its client. So, buy local telco. I'd rather have my own government to the spying on America than some other country.
Fucking globalists, this is part of the end result after nearly half a century of globalization.
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Personally, I'll take the Chinese spying on me over the US government anytime, while living in the US. I mean, Chinese government has pretty much nothing to do with my life. But our own can definitely affect me.
So - if the choice is about who knows my secrets, I know which one I prefer.
Your childish "allegiances" do not make sense in the real world.
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Personally, I'll take the Chinese spying on me over the US government
Your childish "allegiances" do not make sense in the real world.
Really? It's not allegiances. It's security and practicality.
I don't want my infrastructure coming from places which we exert no control over. Every time I see a piece of American-branded IT gear with a "Made in China" or "Hecho en Mexico" sticker I want to fucking scream.
It's outrageous that we must depend on other countries for our most basic needs. It wasn't this way until we sold our country out in the past 50 or so years in the name of a quick buck.
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"I expect every telco to spy on its client. So, buy local telco. I'd rather have my own government to the spying on America than some other country."
No doubt. But in the void if I'm only given the choice between the government of the most brutal murderer in recorded history and the one who liberated Europe from the second most brutal I know I'd prefer the liberator. The US essentially had most of Europe occupied after their push on the Nazis and could have solidified that occupation but instead provided aid
Re:Like bell labs or at&t and ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure, except American telco infrastructure is built in China, and India, and Vietnam, etc. So is Ericsson's.
Your solution is to nationalize the telcos. Errrrrmmmm...last time the U.S. got anywhere close to that was Ma Bell. Let's just say innovation was not their middle name.
BTW: you owe your standard of living to globalization. Of course we could go back to the 1930s, that was a wonderful time of isolation with the extra boost it gave the Great Depression and helped cause WWII because there were no effective governors of Germany's and Japan's behavior. It is no surprise that the rise of isolationist sentiment has tracked the rise of autocrats today.
The most isolationist regimes are also the most repressive. They need that outside enemy to force their choke hold on their pop.'s freedom.
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BUY TELCO INFRASTRUCTURE FROM YOUR OWN COUNTRY. Is that so hard to understand?
If the US just did this and then shut up I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. However, they are NOT doing this - they are actively advocating and bullying other countries and companies to not buy Chinese without providing any proof at all of nefarious activities and often when the main competitor just happens to be a US company.
This has all the hallmarks of lying to promote the commercial interests of the US and it is not the first time they have done this...unless you really believe tha
Re: Like bell labs or at&t and ... (Score:2)
Fucking globalists, this is part of the end result after nearly half a century of globalization.
AMEN!!!
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There is nothing wrong with buying from Allies.
There is nothing wrong with Americans buying European gear and Europeans buying American gear.
It isn't just "oh it has to be made here." The important thing is that it is made by a country that, in case of war, would be fully on your side.
And in the case of 5G, the US contributions so far have been R&D that is shared with European partner companies who will actually make the products. The way to buy US tech is in this case is to buy gear made in Europe. Thi
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Europe is not a country. Very few countries develop telco equipment.
We may as well buy from America, we're letting the US snoop all our data anyway.
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You might have a point if the comparison were with Sweden, France, the UK, Canada, etc.
You are out of your mind if you are seriously suggesting another democracy presents the same kind of threat to the people of a democracy that China's regime does. If your country loses to another democracy you'll have a voice and a vote in how the result is run, the format might be different but you'll have a say. If China takes over you'd have no voice, no say, and live in a completely sheltered propaganda bubble so your
Re: Like bell labs or at&t and ... (Score:2)
You might have a point if the comparison were with... France
Would that be the same France that blew up a ship and murdered a crew member in Auckland in '85??
Re:Like bell labs or at&t and ... (Score:5, Informative)
This is why China/Russia don't trust those companies, and the US and Europe shouldn't trust Huawei for the exact same reasons.
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That depends on how threatening you think Sweden is. In general, no. They might have slightly different policies in their democracy than yours but at least they ARE a democracy, if they use what they hear to take over you'd gain a vote in the new democracy. You get no vote or even a claim or attempt at getting real news, history, and information to form an opinion based on if the same happens with China.
Re: Like bell labs or at&t and ... (Score:3)
That depends on how threatening you think Sweden is
I take it you've never had a jar of pickled herring opened in your presence.
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Also popular in 3 US States.
In Oregon we sometimes pickle Salmon. It produces a very different aroma.
Americans do not fear kimchi.
Or even Vegemite.
You can't frighten Americans with bad food. We have all the weirdest foods from all around the world, and we mix and match them in a giant melting pot.
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I was thinking the exact same thing. So, and our companies do not work with our military?
The difference is they are OUR companies working with OUR military. China is OUR adversary in every space. What is there to understand?
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Only if you pretend that the military of a democracy presents the same threat to a democracy that the military of regime like China does.
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DEC ? As a former DEC, then Compaq employee I am quite sure no DEC personnel have worked with the US government in a long time.
Digital Equipment Corporation, also known as DEC and using the trademark Digital, was a major American company in the computer industry from the 1950s to the 1990s.Wikipedia
Industry:
Computer manufacturing
Fate:
Acquired by Compaq, after divestiture of major assets.
Successor:
Hewlett-Packard, (2002 - present), Compaq, (1998 - 2002)
Founded: 1957
Defunct: 1998
Key people:
Ken Olsen (founder,
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What point are you trying to make? DEC did military contracts and their computers were used in weapons systems, and the companies that acquired DEC did more of the same.
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Merely that comparing what a company or companies that are 20 years defunct has no bearing on a company that is currently involved very deeply in government surveillance. Also I might add the idea of being involved in government research and deployment in the US or UK is hardly the same as that of a company under the auspices of the government of China.
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U.S. government does 100 times the evil things Chinese government is accused of around here. Supporting genocide, giving money to despots to make weapons of mass destruction, destabilizing governments and regions, wars for power and profit that kill hundreds of thousands...
worse than what China has done in past 50 years...
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In the Olden Days when I was a kid and the local public library had a VAX card catalog I would move the cursor so it looped over to the top the screen, then I'd type over the "Public Library" part with "Military Database Blah Blah Blah" or whatever, it was a lot of fun.
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Why should the US government be upset with US companies working with the US government? Honestly, the fact this is "insightful" shows how pathetic this site now is. If you don't believe there should be at least some level of concern with Chinese companies running potentially large portions of your countries infrastructure then you are living in some utopian fantasy world. It doesn't mean you believe the Chinese people to evil, it just makes sense not to hand over the keys to the kingdom. And while the econo
ATT, Verizon, etc. Work with NSA, CIA, FBI, etc. (Score:2)
I think the problem is universal abuse of technology by governments. Hard to find a "good actor" anywhere.
Unreal - Military and Industry collaberating? (Score:4, Insightful)
Luckily this has never happened anywhere else in history. Shocking. I am going to coin a new term: "military industrial complex"(tm)
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OR, if you prefer, "the partnership that has kept 4 generations of young men alive and not permitted a major war in 70 years".
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Started, none. Supported and prolonged? Well... that list is slightly longer.
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Korea? Vietnam? Ring a bell or two?
You might want to point out how these wars were existential crises to China. Bullshit, it was the same proxy war shit that the US were pulling, just that China was on the other side.
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Nepal.
Korea.
Vietnam Invasion.
South China Sea.
And many more wars.
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Tibet
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Korea? What? That was Stalin's work, how the hell are you blaming China for that.
Any yet the dead soldiers were Chinese. Go figure.
Vietnam Invasion? Yup, at the proding of the US, in retaliation against their invasion of Cambodian.
China invaded Vietnam to claim border lands, and were driven back. None of that has anything to do with Cambodia or the US.
Vietnam invaded Cambodia, ended the horrors that were happening there, and left. Good on them for that.
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The wars with Vietnam.
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"Name a war that China started?"
What you mean like the invasion of Tibet?
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Tibet wasn't internationally recognized as independent because the international bodies didn't exist when it was last independent. It's been invaded by multiple countries over the last few hundred years. After the chinese took their country back from the manchu they invaded all their neighbors that the manchu had conquered 300 years before. So no it's not called a civil war.
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If the manchu were a chinese dynasty then why did the chinese consider them foreign invaders? Read up on the manchu conquest of the ming dynasty and tell me with straight face that's not the actions of a foreign power conquering it's rival. The CCP spouts out propaganda about it's neighbors actually being chinese as an excuse to take their lands. All the CCP ever does is come up with bullshit excuses for why somebody else's land is actually theirs. Compare a map of ming dynasty china to modern china and tel
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"Wasn't internationally recognized" is a pretty pathetic admission of guilt disguised as an excuse. Except, it has no weight as an excuse.
The government ruling China also wasn't internationally recognized at the time, so if your argument did work, it would also defeat you more completely.
And no the US did not invade the Southern States after they declared independence. The Southern States took a more proactive approach and invaded the North after declaring independence. There is debate about which side "fir
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Are you claiming a civil war isn't a war too?
Re: Unreal - Military and Industry collaberating? (Score:2)
Name a war that China started?
The "Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution" launched by Mao against the Chinese people in 1966.
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If you don't count the dead.
Winter War 153,736–194,837 173,071 1939–1940 Finland vs. Soviet Union Finland – Part of World War II
Greco-Italian War 27,080+ 27,080 1940–1941 Greece vs. Italy Southeast Europe – Part of World War II
Continuation War 387,333+ 387,333 1941–1944 Finland and Germany vs. Soviet Union Northern Europe – Part of World War II
Soviet–Japanese War 33,420–95,768 56,574 1945
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You quadruple-counted Afghanistan, 1978–present, 1979–1989, 2001–present, and unlabeled but presumptively 2001-present.
The US air force has supported my research (Score:1)
and I'm not even American. Am I an American agent now too? Where's my badge? You guys are being ridiculous.
Re:The US air force has supported my research (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you suggesting there is any comparison between being an American agent and a Chinese agent? Lets avoid creating the impression there is some kind of equivalency here. One is a democracy whose constitution has been watered down somewhat in recent times, the other is a brutal regime that has murdered tens of millions, burned thousands alive, tortured millions more in concentration camps and executed prisoners to sell their organs.
That's like creating an equivalence between between any prison guard and a soldier who herded jews into gas chambers.
In all this my democracy and is more open and accepting than yours nonsense and calling anymore who doesn't agree a nazi I think people have lost sight of the fact that there a very wide gulf between some asshat saying things that aren't accepting on social media and actual monsters like Russia under Stalin, Germany under Hitler, and China under Mao's regime. Of the three only China is still ruled by those monsters. Putin is bad but he is no Stalin and Stalin was no Mao.
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That's like creating an equivalence between between any prison guard and a soldier who herded jews into gas chambers.
Let's try creating an equivalence between between any DHS agents who locked up infants and toddlers in detention centers [nytimes.com] and a soldier who herded jews into gas chambers.
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We could, but it would be fucking stupid.
The DHS being overwhelmed and under resourced is hardly comparable to a deliberate campaign of genocide.
I don't recall the Jewish population of Poland demanding access to Germany and putting their children at risk by illegally invading either, but maybe that part was omitted by the history books.
Re: Rewrote last sentence for sanity. (Score:2)
I should really start proofing what I write on here.
With all this "my democracy is more open and accepting than yours" nonsense and the habit of calling anymore who doesn't agree with that a Nazi; I think people have lost sight of the very wide gulf between some asshat saying things on social media which aren't accepting and actual monsters like Russia under Stalin, Germany under Hitler, and China under Mao's regime. Of the three only China is still ruled by those monsters. Putin is bad but he is no Stalin
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"If you want to say that a Chinese company is evil because they're Chinese"
No we are saying the Chinese government is evil because it is evil. This company is evil not because Chinese people run it but because it is tied to the violent military arm of that evil government.
"and make up reasons that would apply just the same to any other country"
Nothing I said is made up and it doesn't apply just the same to any other country. You couldn't even remotely approach committing the crimes which leak out of China w
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"towards pretty much everyone else in the world"
Which is ridiculous. The US has gotten caught up in some of the mess that persisted for better than 2000 years in the middle east. Does anyone in Europe or the UK really think the US military is a threat to them? Not could it hurt them but there is any real chance the US is going to point its guns at them in the first place? Can you honestly say the same of China? Tibet is not China's own people anymore than Poland was Germany's.
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"Does anyone in Europe think that the Chinese military is a threat to them?"
I should hope so. If they aren't they didn't learn their lesson from Hitler.
"Are Africans worried that China is going to invade and going on bombing runs? Is the Middle East scared of China? Is Latin America scared of China?"
China hasn't been powerful enough for that to be a concern in the past. There has only been the US and the USSR and they didn't start all the nonsense in Africa/Middle East/Latin America they just exploited it b
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"You need to factor in the countless deaths the USA has caused in overthrowing governments, pursuits of mass destruction, supporting terrorists. wreckless and needless bombings, ..and on and on an on....."
They aren't countless, they are counted and including world wars and nukes don't even remotely by the worst estimates begin to approach the death toll of just Mao. The Chinese death toll is countless because they are a black box with almost all information coming out being sanctioned and allowed to be rele
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"US did create that mess. WTF are you talking about. Love how idiots try to whitewash their mistakes and state that everyone else is evil."
The US has only been around a couple hundred years, the middle east has been a mess for better than two thousand! Are you proposing CIA time travel or something?
"Do we need to bring up what the US did to slaves and the Native American population? Do we need to bring up US concentration camps?"
Right because those are fair comparison, the US had slavery along with most of
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Students protesters mowed down? Again. Cite when this actually happened. Read the wiki on Tiananmen square.
I don't need to read the heavily edited and entirely unreliable wiki on Tiananmen Square. I was alive at the time, and remember the death toll.
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and I'm not even American. Am I an American agent now too? Where's my badge?
You don't get any sort of badge or medal just for being on the right side.
But thank you. That's what you get. Our thanks. Same thing Americans usually get for their service.
Bloomberg: Gov Mouthpeice (Score:4)
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Good observation. It is EXACTLY like the supermicro story.
This "report" has nothing to do with security and everything to do with politics.
I used to trust Bloomberg's reporting.
But now - Not so much.
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Just Like Apple. (Score:2)
Using Chinese Slave Labor for years and years. Steve Jobs even got slave liver from there!
Re: Just Like Apple. (Score:2)
Damn communists! (Score:2)
So? No US company does military work? (Score:3, Insightful)
This must be the most demented "accusation" against them I have seen for a long time.
Shocking (Score:3)
"Over the past decade, Huawei workers have teamed with members of various organs of the People's Liberation Army"
Why is this "news"? Or rather, why would anyone consider it newsworthy?
Of course they did, why would anyone think Huawei wouldn't work with the PLA?
It's like announcing that General Electric or Ford worked with the US Military.
"Private industry and the military work together on stuff, film at 11."
What's next, the discovery that water is wet and fire is hot?
Newsflash! (Score:2)
Chinese Megacorp worked for Chinese military! Whoever would have thought this would happen?!?? ...
Seriously?
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Well, Trump never thought it had happened before.
Bloomberg writers mentally retarded (Score:2)
Name a major U.S. tech corporation that hasn't done research for U.S. government
I say shoot for the lower intestine (Score:2)
Re: I say shoot for the lower intestine (Score:2)
I say shoot for the lower intestine
You sure that doesn't have an alternate meaning??
Cisco Personnel Worked With US Military (Score:3)
Cisco Personnel Worked With US Military on Research Projects
Several Cisco employees have collaborated on research projects with American armed forces personnel, indicating closer ties to the country's military than previously acknowledged by the smartphone and networking powerhouse, Bloomberg reported Thursday.
Bloomberg... the ones that brought you the article about embedded chips on motherboards that was never corroborated
I think I'll file this under "Trade war propaganda".
wow... (Score:2)
priori knowledge. (Score:2)
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Interviewer: Did you serve in the Military?
Interviewee: Yes.
Interviewer: Oh. Where?
Interviewee: Iraq.
Interviewer: Marines?
Interviewee: Republican Guard
Being a military veteran isn't enough, it also has to be the right military...
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A rare circumstance except for people who switched sides during the war, since even having police training is enough to prevent getting a US visa without being part of a special program.
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Thank god the Chinese military fights to bring in democracy when it wins... oh wait.