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Network The Internet Businesses Communications The Almighty Buck Wireless Networking

Frontier Refuses To Waive Router Rental Fee For Customer Who Brought His Own (arstechnica.com) 254

Posted by BeauHD from the you-can't-win dept.
Ever since Frontier bought Verizon's Texas network in 2016, the company has been charging some customers a $10-per-month router rental fee even if they're using their own router. Rich Son of Texas purchased Verizon's FiOS Quantum Gateway router for $200 in order to avoid monthly rental fees. He said: "[the router] worked well for me until the takeover happened with Frontier and I began getting charged for using my own equipment. I have continued to call Frontier and was repeatedly assured that the fees will be taken off my bill." But that didn't happen. Ars Technica reports: Son filed a complaint with the Federal Communications Commission; Frontier responded to the complaint but stuck to its position that he has to pay the fee. A voicemail that Frontier left with Son and his wife said the company informed the FCC that "the router monthly charge is an applicable fee, and it will continue to be billed." Another voicemail from Frontier told them they can avoid the monthly rental fees if they purchase a Frontier router.

"We can reimburse you if you purchase a Frontier router. We cannot reimburse you if you have a Verizon router -- we are not Verizon," the voicemail said. "You can choose to use your own router, however you will be still charged the monthly fee... the difference is we do not service the router that you choose to use." "It's $10 today -- but how much will it cost us tomorrow?" Son said. "I'd consider letting it go if their customer service blew me out of the water, but they've been terrible ever since Verizon forced Frontier on us." When contacted by Ars Technica, Frontier said that it refuses to stop charging the Wi-Fi router rental fee even when customers use their own router and claimed it does so in order to cover higher support costs for customers like Son."
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Frontier Refuses To Waive Router Rental Fee For Customer Who Brought His Own More

Frontier Refuses To Waive Router Rental Fee For Customer Who Brought His Own

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  • Sue them (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @09:36PM (#58864376)

    Legal action and contacting the local news is the only way you're going to fix this.

    • For the person in the article, that's the Public Utility Commission of Texas [texas.gov].

      In general, state regulatory bodies have the power to smack utilities over the head. Getting them to use that power may require local news attention, of course...

  • Switch to a competitor (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Powercntrl ( 458442 ) on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @09:43PM (#58864416) Homepage

    You do have a competitor, don't you [youtube.com]?

    Consider that $10/mo a tax for supporting politicians who don't see anything wrong with broadband monopolies.

  • Spyware? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by bill_mcgonigle ( 4333 ) * on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @09:45PM (#58864424) Homepage Journal

    > the difference is we do not service the router that you choose to use."

    Sounds like "our firmware isn't on it so we can't extract profiling data from it to sell to advertisers, which is worth $10/mo/sub to us".

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by nadaou ( 535365 )

      Sounds like "our firmware isn't on it so we can't extract profiling data from it to sell to advertisers, which is worth $10/mo/sub to us".

      I think you overestimate what they'll sell you out for. More like 5c/mo/sub.

  • Yeah, but customers like Son are only calling their support line because they are charging the fee. Drop the fee and some of their support calls would go away...

    • Yeah, but customers like Son are only calling their support line because they are charging the fee. Drop the fee and some of their support calls would go away...

      Let me say first that I'm on Son's side, not Frontier's.

      But I find it hard to believe that people call for support just because they're paying for it. They're calling support because they have a problem that needs to be fixed on the provider's end. Drop the fee and people will still call if they have a problem.

      Frontier is charging a fee because (1) it's what they charge customers who rent their router from Frontier; and (2) it's a convenient excuse to charge people with non-Frontier routers for support. I d

      • They claim it takes more money to train and retain tech staff on non-Frontier-approved hardware.

        They also claim they do not support non-Frontier-approved hardware, exposing their own bullshit.

        I think that's questionable, and they're just gouging.

        See above.

      • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Nothing New (Score:5, Interesting)

    by JoeRandomHacker ( 983775 ) on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @09:49PM (#58864440)

    Verizon decided they could charge me a monthly "maintenance fee" for my old router because I didn't want to buy a refurbished but newer one from them. The more paranoid side of me suspects that the newer router is mainly to make it easier to monitor my usage, or at least provide a conduit to funnel more of my money to them, so I'll pass. Of course, my other option, Comcast, is arguably even more evil, so I suffer with it. It would be really nice if there were more alternatives.

    • Call VZ customer service. Call back until you get someone in the US, not Bangalore. Tell them to turn on the Ethernet port on the ONT. Throw the old VZ router in the trash, recycle it as e-waste, or pawn it off on EBay. Use whatever router you like connected to Ethernet. They can't charge you a "maintenance fee" for your own router. I've been using an Airport Extreme that someone gave me for free, and haven't had any problem with VZ charging me extra fees.

      • Good point, and I did consider that, but I have a DVR, so I need MOCA to keep working. Getting my own MOCA-enabled router would be expensive, and I suspect it would be quite a bit of grief to get VZ to work with it, so I'm back to suffering with the fee. If it seems like the OTT services are sufficient in quantity and quality to ditch the DVR, I'm sure I'll reconsider.

        • Do you actually pay for cable or do you have an air antenna + DVR? If you have an HDTV air antenna, you don't really need MoCA to the DVR. Just get a cheap HDTV converter box with DVR that records to USB media. You set it the old-fashioned way like a VCR. Just set a start/stop time for recording.

          • Yeah, I have cable TV service and a Motorola QIP DVR. I don't watch a lot of broadcast stuff, but I do watch some, and since I'm not that close to the city it looks like reception is iffy. Like I said (or meant to say), once the stuff I watch on cable is covered well enough on OTT services, I'll likely switch. I do have a Roku and watch some stuff there with mixed results.

            • How much time do you have on your hands that Piratebay and Netflix don't provide enough amusement for you?

              • It's mainly that I'm old, crotchety, and set in my ways, at least TV-wise. I have channels that I watch, and it is currently more clunky to get the same content on the Roku than it is to flip to a channel, and at least some of them appear to have lower quality streams OTT.

              • Piratebay requires the extra expense of a VPN.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by crow ( 16139 )

        NO! Do not discard the Verizon router. They will claim it's their property and demand it back or charge you something ridiculous like $180 for it.

        But yes, activate the ONT ethernet port and use that with whatever equipment you like.

  • You have to buy it ... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by b0s0z0ku ( 752509 ) on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @09:51PM (#58864452)
    ... but they didn't say you have to use it. Couldn't you buy it, then immediately drop it on EBay? Then use whichever router you liked.

    • Depends on how insistent they are at being asshats. When you bring your own device, you have to provide them the router ID so they can accept it on the network. If they sell you one, and the left hand knows what the right hand is doing, that'll be the one they automatically enable... same as they do when you rent.

      • You have to provide a MAC address. Fortunately, most routers do MAC spoofing on the WAN port by default -- just enter whatever ID they need! Though I'm not sure if your buyer would be happy with this (depending how Frontier's network handles duplicate MACs). To be safe, you could always make up a random MAC from the MAC range used by Frontier Actiontec routers.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by darkain ( 749283 )

          This is one of those areas where CenturyLink (my GPON provider) is a double-edge sword, but works well. Instead of registering a device with CL, they use PPPoE with a username/password, and over a specific VLAN ID. I can freely swap hardware as often as I like, so long as it support PPPoE and VLAN on the WAN port. Downside is the slightly reduced MTU though.Overall, it hasn't been an issue, still get ~940mbps in both directions.

          • Verizon FiOS isn't bad either. There's literally no authentication in my experience. The ONT is probably registered, but anything on the other side of the ONT is a free-for-all. Reboot the ONT, plug whatever router you want to into it, and it grabs an address via DHCP and just works. (Or you set the static address in the case of business FiOS, but it's still not authenticated via MAC or PPPoE.)

            DSL uses PPPoE, but a lot of the DSLAMs are set to accept any username/PW combo these days. They've basically

  • Support? (Score:3)

    by QuietLagoon ( 813062 ) on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @09:57PM (#58864486)
    }}} Frontier said that it refuses to stop charging the Wi-Fi router rental fee even when customers use their own router and claimed it does so in order to cover higher support costs for customers like Son. {{{ --- I think it's cute that Frontier thinks they provide support.
    • Not only that, wouldnt support costs be higher for the router that they are legally required to maintain?

      • Not only that, wouldnt support costs be higher for the router that they are legally required to maintain?

        Not defending them, but no. Many support calls you get are for misconfigurations, problems with cables and wifi etc in the house. In those circumstances standard well known equipment makes for much faster and scripted problem resolution. The reality is people call and always assume it is a problem at the other end, not of their own making so which router they have probably doesn't make much difference to call volumes, but it would to time taken to resolve the problem.

        • PS: I still think it is BS they are charging the $10, the actually support costs differences would be marginal at best as I would think those that shop for their own routers are "probably" slightly better technically at trouble shooting.....I hope.
  • It took less than 2 months for me to tell Frontier to get lost when they took over from Verizon.
    One call and "Bye bye!"

  • Don't Give Up!!!! (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @10:18PM (#58864568)

    I'm also in Texas with Frontier service. I was "grandfathered" in on the Verizon plan, but when I made a change to my account, they started charging me $10 for a router I didn't have. The "Verizon" router at the time was a DLink router, nothing special, that died about 6 months in. I started using my own router at that point. Flash forward about 10 years when i made the change to my account, and I start getting a charge for their router....that i don't have in my possesion.

    I called to get it fixed and got no where. I ended up finding the, Contact The President site (https://frontier.com/office-of-the-president-form) and filled out this form. About 3 days later i get a call, from one of the rudest people I have dealt with. Explaining her stupid logic of charging me for a router that i don't have in my possession is illegal and want the charge removed...this went on for about 90 minutes.......
    After finally getting her to waive the fee for 6 months, i told her it wasn't good enough and to get her manager. From there I was told that it would be a few days as they don't just take calls....after a few words i agreed and we ended the call.

    About another 3 days, the same woman calls me back and says they have agreed to waive the fee for 12 months, and i again say to get me a manager. she tells me to get a manager I am not agreeing to the fee waiver and will be a few more days. As an idiot that i am, i agree to the 12 months, and as a kicker she tells me that they will be sending me a router.....that i can just put in the closet, because........if i cancel service i have to return it if i don't want to be charged.

    Flash forward to the next month, the fee is still there with a credit of somethhing like ~$140 ($10/month + taxes). I call back in to complain that wasnt the agreement. I get put in touch with the same woman as she "owns the case", we argue and she is even more rude then before...interrupting almost every sentence, telling me that this is part of there service, and that there is no way to waive the fee.

    sorry for the long story, but after some choice words to her, i call in once a month and get a $10 credit because that's what they agreed to, most of the time i get it in one phone call, a couple time i have to hang up and call back to get another agent that is more willing to help.

    My advice......complain, complain, complain....when you finally get what you want, be sure to cancel service once the agreement you have has run it's course. Once you are not a customer for 30 days, you can come back as a new customer and get the fee waived for 12-24 months

    • So glad I'm in the UK where we can just go "fuck you I'm leaving", log onto any one of over 100 ISP's websites and sign up with them.

    • Re:Don't Give Up!!!! (Score:4, Informative)

      by e3m4n ( 947977 ) on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @10:44AM (#58867094)

      Don’t just complain to them. File complaint with the public service commission, The FCC, The secretary of state, your state representatives, your city officials, your senators and congressmen in DC, The federal trade commission because charging you for something they’re not providing is a federal crime, and any other alphabet agency you can think of. Make sure your complaints are in writing as well as electronica and make sure to send carbon copies to frontier. Also look for a law firm willing to engage in a class action lawsuit in order to cost them a whole bunch of money and he settlement to get out of it. When you make waves you can’t just deal with a single person and complain she’s a nobody. You Gotta make waves big enough that the Board of Directors has to address the shit. You know what happens when the class-action lawsuit gets filed? Especially for something like illegally charging customers a fee for service they weren’t providing? People start selling their stock that gets the Board of Directors attention.

  • Don't call the FCC call your local public utility commission. If this doesn't work try FTC, local news and "social media".

    This has got to be one of the most sleazy billing scams I've ever heard of any ISP even attempt to get away with. It's even worse than 28 day billing, cost recovery fees and evergreen contracts in that this is straight up fraud.

  • File a complaint with your local municipality. They might be able to put pressure on Frontier when it comes time to renew franchise agreements.

  • liars (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Tom ( 822 ) on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @02:49AM (#58865476) Homepage Journal

    Wi-Fi router rental fee even when customers use their own router and claimed it does so in order to cover higher support costs for customers like Son."

    Nope. They should be charging a support costs fee in such case, not a router rental fee.

    If there isn't a rented router, you can't charge for router rental. Has common sense left everyone so badly? How is this not a slam-dunk case in a small claims court ?

  • I only get 16mbit down and 1mbit up, but that's never shaped traffic and truly unlimited, my biggest month being 1.4TB.

    Furthermore, I am not aware of anyone, ever being stung for device rental, unless of course they're actually renting a device (generally is more of a 2 year, pay off the device fee)

    Those Aussies with our terrible replacement NBN system have it marginally better than I do to boot.

    Americans are getting screwed.

    Oh 59 AUD a month too.

  • Fee for not using our services $10/month. Thank you for not being our customer.

  • I went through this with Frontier a couple of months ago. I even filed complaints with the local public utilities commission and the BBB. After the BBB complaint, I heard from some higher-up who gave me this sob story about how they can't do the pricing that they've sold, and actually admitting that the $10 was part of the service pricing. Which if they'd been honest about up-front, I wouldn't have minded so much. But telling me that it's a "router rental fee" when in reality it's something else is is fucki
  • FIOS for Frontier was and will always be an adopted bastard child. It is a service that had to be acquired because otherwise the discounted copper network could not be acquired.

    A decade ago, my first day as a contractor for Frontier was the day the spinoff of the VZ footprints to frontier in South Bend, Portland and Everett. Frontier walked into the deal with a billing system that was an absolute mess with the few markets they could provide ISDN and 3mbit/sec ADSL to. They had absolutely no idea how
  • I'm so glad I live in a country where no ISP has a monopoly over an entire area be it a local area in a town, an entire city or county. Everybody in the UK with a landline has access to a choice of over 100 ISPs and the ISP you choose can be entirely different to your telephony service provider so I can have my home telephone with BT, Sky, Talktalk et al and I can choose an entirely different company, say Zen, Claranet etc for my ISP.

  • The Rich Son of Texas can't really be that rich if he is worried about a 10$ a month fee.

  • I have my own business class network, firewall, etc. And they won't wave the fee.

  • Multiple sat ISP are coming and should be able to destroy these kinds of companies.

  • This is what happens when the government chooses your utility providers.

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