Tesla Model 3 Gets the Nod From Police Over Cost and Performance, Bye-Bye Dodge Charger (electrek.co) 178
The Bargersville, Indiana, Police Department is updating its fleet to Tesla Model 3s after they figured out that they will save a lot of money on gas, and that the Tesla Model 3s don't compromise performance compared to the Dodge Chargers. From a report: We are starting to see Tesla vehicles becoming quite popular with police departments all over the world. In Tesla's own backyard, the Fremont Police Department converted a used Tesla Model S to a patrol vehicle.
The Luxembourg Police converted two Model S sedans to patrol cars, and the largest fleet of Tesla police patrol vehicles is in Switzerland. At this point, there are about a dozen police departments going electric with Tesla vehicles, but we have never heard of one going with the Model 3 until now. The Bargersville Police Department decided to go for it.
The Luxembourg Police converted two Model S sedans to patrol cars, and the largest fleet of Tesla police patrol vehicles is in Switzerland. At this point, there are about a dozen police departments going electric with Tesla vehicles, but we have never heard of one going with the Model 3 until now. The Bargersville Police Department decided to go for it.
Repairs (Score:5, Insightful)
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I was just thinking the same - a point-in-turn stop is guaranteed to dent up the front of the police car performing it and if they're using Teslas that can be a pricey way to catch a carjacker.
Re:Repairs (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps such things just don't happen often enough, and when they do, they might use a cheaper car?
I bet that 99.99% of the time police cars are just idly driving (or sitting) around doing absolutely nothing of interest (well, that's their job, their mere presence is what they get paid for). Most cops never pull a gun out during their entire careers (at least not with intent to use). Seems like a perfect scenario for an electric car (I'm sure they crunched numbers on total-cost-of-ownership and it came out as a good deal---otherwise they wouldn't be doing this).
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I was just thinking the same - a point-in-turn stop is guaranteed to dent up the front of the police car performing it and if they're using Teslas that can be a pricey way to catch a carjacker.
Quickly! Random guy from Slashdot needs to set them straight!
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I was just thinking the same - a point-in-turn stop is guaranteed to dent up the front of the police car performing it and if they're using Teslas that can be a pricey way to catch a carjacker.
I can’t speak to that police department specifically, but around here I see see police vehicles with minor dents and scratches all the time. I suspect they don’t repair minor stuff right away - probably wait until there are a lot of dings or a major repair is needed.
You watch way too many movies man (Score:5, Interesting)
What about the ginormous cost of repairing even minor body damage on Teslas
Just what on earth do you think most police are DOING with cars anyway that you are worried about the cost of body damage?
They mostly drive around, and in an emergency may be driving really fast somewhere. They aren't playing bumper cars with these things. Most police cars will never be ramming anything.
Besides, it also seems like you are not aware of how expensive it is to fix body damage on any modern car. If you tap a bumper on pretty much any car now it's something like $2000-3000.
I personally think it's a great idea to give the police a car that someone is very unlikely to be able to run away from. Also with a trunk front and back it gives them more options for tactical storage.
Re:You watch way too many movies man (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't the patrol cars in your area have "bash bars" on the front of them for spinning out cars who refuse to pull over? That's standard equipment where I live, although I'm not convinced that my local cops ever used them. It just makes the car look more menacing.
Yep bash bars here too (Score:2)
True they have those also, but they don't get used very often at all. I knew someone who was a highway patrol officer and even there you almost never had to do a kinetic stop, it was very rare. 99.9999% of people are just going to pull over when the lights go on.
So the repair cost is like noise to the normal cost of operating a police fleet.
Also if they installed bash bars on a Tesla, that would mean even fewer body repairs as the bash bars would take any hit.
Re:Yep bash bars here too (Score:4)
True they have those also, but they don't get used very often at all. I knew someone who was a highway patrol officer and even there you almost never had to do a kinetic stop, it was very rare.
I've seen them used numerous times - invariably to move a disabled vehicle off a main road where it would be hazardous to get out and push the thing.
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It's not the cost - it's the time to turn around the repair. A crashed Charger can get repaired in a week or two (unless it is mangled); a Tesla can take 7 weeks just for a fender replacement [tesla.com]. I guess that tiny town of 4000 people can afford to have a backup, idled Tesla Model 3 sitting around for when one is damaged and sitting for months to get repaired?
If it's a disabling crash, the Dodge Charger will be out just as badly as the Tesla.
If it's a fender bender that doesn't disable the vehicle, I'll bet it gets driven..
Occasionally we have a dinged up police car out on the streets. And it is really difficult to imagine a police department with zero spare cars. Cars have to go in for inspection, maintenance (thought Tesla's require less) all the time.
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From what I heard, Teslas are made of unobtanium and assembled by toddlers shackled to their workstations purple monkey dishwasher.
Seriously, this game of "search the internet for anyone's negative stories then share them widely as if they represent the average person's experience" gets tiring after a while. Tesla just took 7 out of 12 first place rankings in Kelley Blue Book's rankings of all luxury car brands, plus 2 more in second place. The next closest was Acura, which got only 3 #2 r
Be fair. (Score:3)
Not to mention that Tesla's are like modern day Ford Pinto's -- one good smash and it goes up in flames.
Now now. Be fair.
The Pinto in question had been designed to save money by having, instead of a self-contained gasoline tank, a tank formed by welding a "dish" to the bottom of the rear compartment's floor.
If it got rear-ended, the tank often popped open into the car and the tankful of gas shot inside, soaking the passengers and leaving them with their feet in several inches of gasoline. All while sprayi
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Don't the patrol cars in your area have "bash bars" on the front of them for spinning out cars who refuse to pull over? That's standard equipment where I live, although I'm not convinced that my local cops ever used them. It just makes the car look more menacing.
We call them Bambi breakers here in the woods.
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Well normal people also just drive around their Model S/3s, then it gets bumped and it takes 3 months and ten grand to get it fixed.
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What about the ginormous cost of repairing even minor body damage on Teslas
Just what on earth do you think most police are DOING with cars anyway that you are worried about the cost of body damage?
This is what happens when we let the kids watch Dukes of Hazzard reruns.
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This is what happens when we let the kids watch Dukes of Hazzard reruns.
It would be hilarious to find a Tesla which has a car horn that plays “Dixie”.
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Car repairs around here are not nearly that expensive.
In the last 4 years:
Last bumper on a Prius was $800. Last quarter panel on a Honda Fit was $1200. Totally smashed front end (fender, bumper, hood, door, headlight, grill some suspension and steering stuff) from FIT vs. Brick Mailbox was $5500. None of these repairs took over 2 weeks. If you are OK with third party parts and good but not stellar paint the rate would be half this.
Police around here are pretty hard on cars.
I have heard $6000 and months fo
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Re:You watch way too many movies man (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually they mostly sit idle. That's probably the key here. A regular patrol car may only pick up 50-100 miles per day, but it's not 50-100 miles like you and I would drive. We'd accumulate that mileage in 1-3 hours in a couple long drives, and turn the car off the rest of the time. A patrol car picks up those miles a few miles at a time, sitting idle in between. It's rarely turned off during a shift. That idle time both uses gas and puts wear and tear on the engine, far in excess of what the mileage would suggest. An EV patrol car would eliminate both energy use and mechanical wear when idle. (To be fair, so would the newer gasoline ICE vehicles with the start/stop engines - they turn off the engine every time you stop for more than a few seconds. A patrol car version would put additional wear on the battery and starter motor instead. Although I can see police departments requesting this fuel-saving feature be disabled so the car will respond a little more quickly when you floor the accelerator.)
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Don't forget that these cars will also have to have the internal body designs changed for the police package. That's electronics, light bars, tires, rims, stiffer body frame, minimum backseat clearance, minimum head high clearance in the rear so people arrested can't claim that their heads were deliberately hit on the frame and so-on. Personally I'm glad that someone is taking a chance on this, but I expect other police forces and services not to buy in on it, until they see just how well these vehicles h
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At least modifying a Tesla is unlikely to cause the cops to pass out from carbon monoxide poisoning, unlike all those Ford Explorers that were the news recently.
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Are they going to upgrade the power system to run the extra electronics in the vehicle ?.
i own a ex police charger, and the upgraded electrical system is insane in it.
i can see them running out of juice sitting around doing nothing but listening to the radio.
Re: Repairs (Score:2)
You clearly have no idea just how much power it takes to actually move the car around. The Tesla would sit there and run a police station with the lights on for a whole day, with the power is uses to move around. When your battery is charged, you wouldn't worry about running out of power leaving the lights on. The battery in your charger is an order of magnitude smaller than the Tesla Power Pack.
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Compared to your car, an electrically driven vehicle is going to have an insane-squared electrical system.
Re:Repairs (Score:5, Informative)
Keep in mind that Tesla has not expressed an interest in offering a police package as a regular option on any of their models.
Re:Repairs (Score:4, Insightful)
Keep in mind that Tesla has not expressed an interest in offering a police package as a regular option on any of their models.
Yet.
A use case where a gas car spends the majority of its time idling is very good for an EV.
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Keep in mind that Tesla has not expressed an interest in offering a police package as a regular option on any of their models.
If the US is anything like Europe there's no standard "police package". They all solicit bids for a custom design to fit their particular requirements, of course they have similarities but nobody seems willing to accept that they aren't that unique and go with a generic police cruiser.
Re:Repairs (Score:4, Informative)
Early (early 90's)Crown Vic's had only a couple of extra circuits for radios and light bars, they were chipped for extra power and the brakes were heavier duty. Same engine/transmission. Looked identical to the civilian version.
Later versions, made after the civilian versions were stopped, had more power circuits, beefier alternator/battery. Flaws in the engine heads were fixed to stop burning oil, transmission upgraded, chipping required as used high output fuel injectors. Upgraded brakes, oil coolers and transmission coolers were also added in later models.
Maintenance costs remained the same for the most most part between model years.
Idling is the worst thing that you can do to a car, most police cars are never turned off. Police departments started installing hour meters and rated it at 15mph, so oil would be changed at an appropriate time. Ford added a runtime feature for that calc.
Because of the extended idle time, hard acceleration and braking, these were classified as severe duty.
Using an all electric vehicle would be a huge cost savings for a department, even when treated as severe duty. Why? No gasoline costs, electricity is far cheaper; maintenance costs lower, as no oil fluid changes required. Most departments have a contract with a body shop/mechanical shop (or their own in house) for maintenance and repairs -- would specify common parts on hand for quick turn around. In a RFP, for the # of cars there would be a spec for spare parts included, but would be more on the body side instead of belts, water pumps, alternators and batteries (for example).
Re: Repairs (Score:3)
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What about the ginormous cost of repairing even minor body damage on Teslas, plus with parts availability it can take literally months to fix.
I don't think they get damaged enough to be out of service THAT often.
Even so, they use a lot of gas. A tank a day can be $15-18k/yr, so cutting that in half can pay for a lot of repairs. Plus, they don't have to leave the things running all the time (all the electronics/lights will drain the battery on an ICE car), so even more savings.
It remains to be seen if they're more or less prone to catching fire when getting shot at...
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Range issues for patrols? (Score:2)
I don't know about where you live, but in my hometown the patrol cars are constantly moving around from location to location and then idling with the AC on for hours. I'm not sure if even an extended range Model 3 has enough battery capacity to handle that kind of workload.
Re:Range issues for patrols? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Range issues for patrols? (Score:5, Interesting)
Yup. This is exactly the use-case where EVs excel... frequent short trips with frequent stops and long idle periods.
Most gasoline car AC systems are extremely inefficient because they have to work from ~850-5500 rpms.
I've got an OBDII port monitor that shows the length of the injector pulse in ms. Flip on the AC at idle and just cry at how much that number increases.
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Sure, 15 hours of continuous AC at full blast (Score:2)
A supercharger refills that energy at between 1.5 -> 3 kWh per minute of charge time (depending on V2 vs. V3, current battery level, etc.).
So on a really hot day maybe you spend 10 minutes at a supercharger at some point during 15 hours of operation.
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That's about equivalent to 2.5 gallons of gasoline
In a 100% efficient engine.
An idling V8 is not a 100% efficient engine, especially when it comes to just powering the AC.
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How about how much the heater uses ? plus the Radio to talk to home base, the Radio to keep them occupied, the computer system, and any other electronics running in the background. im willing to bet a heater uses up more Kwh than the AC.
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its not just the AC thats going to be running. They have a computer that is running, they have the radio going (for calls, and other for music), and the umpteen other things that draw power in a police modified car. there is a reason that police chargers have such a huge modified alternator in it and heavy duty battery.
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i have a feeling the computer draws more than 100w.
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Are you serious? Electricity to heat is a very efficient process... much more efficient than trying to harness the waste heat of an ICE where the focus is turning a crankshaft. Wow and I thought you were only clueless when it came to climate-related topics.
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Yes, amount of energy carried is important, but efficiency is perhaps more important. Afterall, what matters in the end is endurance, and that is a function of both energy storage and efficiency.
Now, when traveling, the Model 3 is roughly 5 times as efficient as a typical sedan (assuming 310 mi range of the 75kWH battery, vs a car getting 25mpg). But for what we're talking about (heating while sitting idle in the winter), the Model 3 is far-and-away more efficient than an ICE vehicle.
To generate the 'free h
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How much power does the heater use to keep the car livable for an officer in -10c weather ?
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This town does not appear like there would be any range issues for patrols, nor too many great opportunities for long-distance police chases:
Checking the map, the town appears to be about 3 miles x 6 miles (about 4.8 km x 9.6 km), but sort of F-shaped so less than 18 square miles. Around half of the area within the city limits appears to be large, rural fields (like crop lands or pastures). It has a couple of country highways (1-lane each direction, no divider) running through it, with only about 1/2 mile o
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Most patrol cars average less than 150 miles per day. Just mandate that doughnut shops have fast ev chargers and you should be good.
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Mostly idling anyway... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm sure they burn up a TON of gas just sitting there idling most of the day, followed by flooring it to catch someone speeding, then returning to idling. Eating donuts and zapping plates with lasers doesn't rack up much miles, but sitting there all day is a HUGE waste of fuel, I'm sure. Plus, now they can pay even less attention while driving and typing on their computers, since the car will drive for them.
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Eating donuts and zapping plates with lasers doesn't rack up much miles
But having Autopilot to free up both hands, they'll soon be able to rack up miles *while* they eat donuts.
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Battery usage? (Score:2)
My (completely uneducated) impression is that Police (and other) emergency vehicles use up a lot of electric power for lights, sirens, computer, radio equipment, etc.
Does anyone know if that's the case. Sometimes a police car is parked at the scene of an accident, or construction zone with just lights running.
How would that affect battery performance?
Tesla battery powered Tasers! (Score:3)
Absolutely brilliant! And with higher voltage and ampere!
Someone tased with a Tesla powered Taser won't ever commit crimes any more.
Probably due to lack of vital signs.
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A lot of police vehicles already have auxiliary batteries used to power that stuff, because a car's basic electrical system already can't handle all of that additional load. I would see no reason that it couldn't be done in the Tesla models as well, so that the primary battery remains available just for powering the vehicle and its normal accessories.
Not just police vehicles, either. People who like to do big stereos, the big light bars, etc., also often have to power them off of an auxiliary battery. So, t
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Compared to the energy required to accelerate 2 tons of metal to driving speeds, things like lights/computer/radio are practically rounding errors.
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They have to leave the engines running just to provide the power for these things. Current police package alternators are about ~130A. That comes out to about 1.8kw at a theoretical 100% efficiency. But car alternators are only about 70% efficient, meaning over 2kw from the engine (still less than AC). Automotive DC-DC converters are over 90% efficient and you don't have to keep a whole multi-hundred HP engine hot and ticking over to get 2kw of power.
Yes, this would draw down the battery, but not as fast as
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My (completely uneducated) impression is that Police (and other) emergency vehicles use up a lot of electric power for lights, sirens, computer, radio equipment, etc.
Does anyone know if that's the case. Sometimes a police car is parked at the scene of an accident, or construction zone with just lights running.
How would that affect battery performance?
This is generally why you see police cars running idle all the time - if they don't, the battery will go flat with all the electronics. Most officers in my city will have a lock/unlock fob on their belt that bypasses the "I'm not letting you lock the car with the keys in" system just for this reason. An EV-sized battery probably wouldn't even notice the load.
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How much energy do you think it takes to blink some LEDs compared to the energy required to accelerate 2+ tons to 60mph in about 5 seconds?
Good Trend (Score:2)
I live 3K away from the Tesla plant here in Fremont and I didn't know about Fremont PD having one. It makes sense I suppose.
I think the biggest issue with using EVs for police work are the issues related to re-charging. The car can be driven say 4-5 hours then it needs to be down an hour or so to re-charge.
Knowing the way that PDs typically treat cars they won't go for any of this 80% nonsense it will get buzzed until it is squirting electrons every orifice. And then drained to the point of towing.
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The car can be driven say 4-5 hours then it needs to be down an hour or so to re-charge.
Unlikely. Police cars aren't CONSTANTLY moving, and even when they are moving it's usually at city (not highway) speeds. On a 300 mi range car, you would need to be doing 60 MPH the whole five hours to run out of charge.
As a taxpayer I'd be pissed (Score:2, Insightful)
Properly configured, even without mods to make it a patrol car, it costs as much as a BMW 535. It also runs out of steam after a few minutes of aggressive, pursuit-style driving.
Re:As a taxpayer I'd be pissed (Score:4, Insightful)
If you're ignorant, lots of stuff likely pisses you off. The solution is education, not displaying your ignorance to the world. Is your name Jane?
First, these are replacing Dodge Chargers. The police versions of these are already in the mid $30k to $40k range, which is higher than the BMW 535 you mentioned, because that was discontinued 3 years ago and you can only get them used now. When you look at the gas savings and maintenance savings, the TCO is going to be about the same if not better. Depending on how much time they currently spend idling a 5.7L V8 engine, it might be massively cheaper.
Second, this is a town that's all of like 20 miles across. There aren't going to be a lot of pursuits in a town that size. Definitely not ones that go on for more than about 10 minutes before turning into someone else's problem. This isn't the fucking highway patrol.
Lastly, no, no it won't "run out of steam" in a pursuit. It's like you think they are actually coal powered or something. They'd possibly be better than the normal charger in a pursuit, as their acceleration and handling are better. They are a bit worse than a charger if you want to drive 500 miles in as little time as possible, but that's not the use-case of a small-town cop car.
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So you'd be pissed when they save you more tax dollars over the long haul on gasoline AND repairs/maintenance? Because a Tesla has no transmission in it to break down and cost thousands to overhaul. And the regenerative braking means they get a lot of life out of a set of brake pads too. No more regular oil changes either.
If the police ordered a performance edition of a Model 3, it'll hang in there a lot longer than just a few minutes with aggressive driving too. That used to be a problem for a Model S
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...or, frankly, you keep one or two supercharged "interceptors" around. If you are doing a high-speed chase of a stolen vehicle, for example, the Teslas will be able to keep track of it. Somebody can go get the "interceptor" and do a PIT maneuver or something to stop them.
The vast majority of police work is boring and doesn't need a car with 700HP.
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The town is very small. If you're doing a high-speed chase, you'd be out of the town and turning it over to the county or state police in a couple minutes.
Re:As a taxpayer I'd be pissed (Score:5, Interesting)
A major cost of police vehicles is the customization work
Bingo. Half a century ago, the Dutch highway police opted for Porsche convertibles / targas [porschepolitie.nl]. For the simple reason that these cars needed little more than livery, radio, siren and some extra lights to turn them into patrol / pursuit cars. They bought so many of them that Porsche actually did part of the customization as part of the production process. All in all they had a pretty decent TCO as a result. The police have been using various model Porsches up until '95 or so.
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I guess if $55K vs $35K is not "much more" to you, then it's not "much more".
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Re:Cheaper (Score:5, Informative)
If you RTFA you would know that they are paying $41,000 and estimate they will save $6,000/yr over an expected 6 years of service.
The Standard Range Plus version that they bought is a little more expensive at ~$41,000, but they expect gas savings of about $6,000 per year, which means that the Model 3 will almost pay for itself over its lifetime (they expect six years as a police vehicle).
$55k is CHEAPER than $35k! (Score:2)
1) Their gas costs of idling around town all day long are quite high.
2) My brother is a mechanic, and those cars are a PoS! They need far more work than the old police cars did. The maintenance costs alone will cost $20k during the span of ownership!
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What could happen next:
Tesla getting on board would save $$ on those expensive special squad cams because they could just use the built-in 360 cams of the Tesla.
Tesla might be able to use it's radar for speeding; another save for the police buying special gear
We can hope... (Score:2)
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Since that's more than 10x the size of the town, one would assume so.
You do realize that even at 100 mph that would be 3 hrs and 15 minutes of pursuit, right? At a more reasonable average of 80 mph that would be 4 hrs. Exactly how many car chases do you think last for 3-4 hrs?
And are you also aware that more than one police car, nay, even more than one police agency can chase a car at once?
Elon didn't inhale (Score:2)
But it'll still be a shame to see people dragged away in handcuffs and thrown in the back of a Model 3 for smoking a joint.
Checking brain at the door. (Score:2)
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They haven't been able to go far enough at high speed to measure before it caught on fire.
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Well, the city has only about 2 miles of freeway within the city limits, so I'm fairly sure we don't need to worry about a 300mi range car running out of power regularly in a highway pursuit in those 2 miles.
Also, if there actually was a chase on the highway, every police department in the country turns it over to the state police quickly. Because the chase will be leaving the local PD's jurisdiction very quickly.
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That's a Hollywood myth. Once they make chase they don't give-up because the alleged criminal passed the county line.
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Didn't say they had to give up chase at the county line. Just that they turn it over to the state police.
They turn it over to the state police 'cause they're the ones that patrol the highways and are best equipped to handle the chase.
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Why would they care about the fuel efficiency during a super rare and super short event? Especially since nothing is likely to outrun the Tesla for long.
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EVERYTHING will outrun a Tesla beyond a half-mile. There's a reason you've never seen one try to compete in any distance racing on an oval track.
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You've commented so many times on this story. You seem to be under the impression that every Tesla is like riding around on a bundle of kindling wood just waiting to combust. Of course you're the only sane person and every other bean counter and engineer are completely wrong.
Indeed (Score:3)
"The Luxembourg Police converted two Model S sedans to patrol cars,..."
One of our cop morons drove one without charging it and had to call a tow-truck on the highway, to the amusement of the population.
Police Car Cameras (Score:2)
Wasn't there a story recently about how Tesla collects video from their cars nationwide for use in their self-driving research.
I imagine this, I assume, 360 degree coverage of cameras filming the cars surroundings would find its way into a court room pretty quickly.
Does this sign Tesla up as the defacto storage of this, no longer research material, but now evidence? Or is Tesla disabling this feature for police cars?
If it does, I'd be curious if Tesla would extend it to body cams. Right now the body cam bus
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Are you operating under the illusion that dash cams have not been a standard add-on for police cars for a few decades now?
Good luck ... (Score:2)
Imagine... (Score:2)
R.F. Interference anyone? (Score:3)
What happens with the officer gets on his radio and transmits?
Will the myriad of CPUs/sensors get RFI and end up in an indeterminate state?
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They overheat if driven for any distance at high-speed and shut themselves down (before catching fire).
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About as well as your average gas tank, or any line carrying flammable liquids for that matter.
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How well do you think they shield gas tanks from bullets?
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Gasoline does not explode nearly as easily as lithium. A bullet into a gas tank is unlikely to do much, except spill gas. Despite what Hollywood shows depict, spilled gasoline does not invariably explode with a 3 second delay after impact. That's one of the many reasons that gasoline is such an excellent fuel: in an unatomized state, it is rather difficult to ignite, making transporting and storing it easy; atomize it and it explodes, making it a good source of propulsion for internal combustion engines.