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Google Android Hardware

Google Hardware Chief Says He Does Not Know Why Pixel 4 Smartphone With Snapdragon 855 Processor Can't Support 4K Video Recording at 60FPS (spotify.com) 78

Posted by msmash from the mystery-solved dept.
Google's latest flagship smartphones -- the Pixel 4 and Pixel 4 XL -- do not support video recording in 4K at 60 frames per second. This has disappointed -- and puzzled -- many fans especially since other smartphones that are powered by Qualcomm Snapdragon 855 do offer this video recording functionality. (Recent generation of iPhone models also offer this functionality.) Folks over at The Verge asked Rick Osterloh, the hardware chief at Google, where the bottleneck lied. "I don't know," responded the chief.
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Google Hardware Chief Says He Does Not Know Why Pixel 4 Smartphone With Snapdragon 855 Processor Can't Support 4K Video Recordin More

Google Hardware Chief Says He Does Not Know Why Pixel 4 Smartphone With Snapdragon 855 Processor Can't Support 4K Video Recordin

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  • Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Friday October 18, 2019 @11:35AM (#59322214)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re: Why would Google prioritize 4K60? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by bill_mcgonigle ( 4333 ) * on Friday October 18, 2019 @12:42PM (#59322452) Homepage Journal

      4K is neat with a nice lens and sensor, but what are people getting from it on a cell phone with a tiny, dark lens and commodity sensor?

      Full HD @ 60 makes some sense. 720p at 120 might even be a bigger win for people who shoot action, which is many times more people than need massive resolution on relatively still things.

      None of these phones are ever really ready at launch, so if things had to slip this one makes sense. Android Q is a mess at 10.0 ... everybody is waiting for a point release for sensible work.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

        4K is neat with a nice lens and sensor, but what are people getting from it on a cell phone with a tiny, dark lens and commodity sensor?

        You might want to turn down the snobbery a bit, because the tiny lens in a cellphone camera is as good as it's going to get - we're at the diffraction limit already and improving the lens is a waste of money and time.

        The sensors have also gotten extremely good - Sony's done some real work in the area.

        Will it match your bokeh/depth of field/etc of an SLR? No, but it's alread

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      Its what users expect for the price and in 2020?

  • Seems like he should make it his business to know (Score:3, Insightful)

    by JoeyRox ( 2711699 ) on Friday October 18, 2019 @11:36AM (#59322220)
    4K60fps is a feature-list checkmark item all flagship smartphones should have. The fact his product doesn't have it is one thing - the fact the lead hardware guy doesn't know the technical reasons behind it borders on incompetence.

    • Re: (Score:1, Insightful)

      by ClueHammer ( 6261830 )
      Why? It seems to be a software problem and he is hardware.. Not his area!

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Cylix ( 55374 )

        That is my thoughts. Qualcomm normally has hardware accelerated drivers, but these cost additional licensing fees. Most likely google didn’t want to pay. If someone has the phone they can roll their own image with the illicitly obtained drivers and see how it goes. The original fire tablet couldn’t properly run Netflix without them. It didn’t take long for people to mod these in.

        • A lot of devices don't support Netflix properly, or maybe Netflix doesn't support a lot of devices properly. The list of devices [netflix.com] that Netflix supports isn't really that big when you consider how many different devices are out there. Even phones that have the right WideVine implementation seem to lack support for HD, and there are even reports of phones with supposedly supported Snapdragon processors that fail to show content in HD.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by green1 ( 322787 )
            That's because of Netflix, not the devices. Netflix's app checks your phone against it's list to decide if it will play HD. It doesn't try unless the phone is on the list. I despise apps that use lists to decide if your phone can use a feature instead of just trying it and seeing if it works.
            • Just make it easy on yourself.

              Get an iPad.

              Netflix, Prime and pretty much any streaming service works flawlessly on it.

      • Why? It seems to be a software problem and he is hardware.. Not his area!

        Then the "Hardware Chief" of an Embedded Design Team should have coordinated with the "Software Chief" of the Embedded Design Team, and at least be able to say "After consulting with our Software Team, we have concluded that..."

        To just say "I don't know" is, at his pay-grade, a termination-level failing.

        • Re:Seems like he should make it his business to kn (Score:4, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 18, 2019 @12:03PM (#59322326)
          Was he supposed to pause the interview while he consulted the software team?

          • Re: (Score:1, Troll)

            by NoMoreACs ( 6161580 )

            Was he supposed to pause the interview while he consulted the software team?

            No.

            He was supposed to already know the answer; or have the Software Chief with him on the Interview.

            Or better yet, the Team should have been structured so that there was a "Project Lead" that both the Hardware and Software Teams reported-to. Then THAT person should have been the "spokesman" to speak to the issue on behalf of Google.

            This is why Microsoft sucks (and apparently Google follows the same path). Excessive compartmentalizing of Design Teams.

    • Re:Seems like he should make it his business to kn (Score:5, Interesting)

      by JoeyDot ( 5981942 ) on Friday October 18, 2019 @11:53AM (#59322290)
      The social pressure to behave as if you always have the answers is pathological. Openly saying he doesn't have the answers is a good sign. It does however need to be followed up with action the first step being investigation.
      • Social pressure? Huh? As the hardware lead of major product it's his professional responsibility to understand the technical reasons behind the limitations of his products.

        • Social pressure? Huh? As the hardware lead of major product it's his professional responsibility to understand the technical reasons behind the limitations of his products.

          Meh. The fact that you appear to care deeply about this feature doesn't mean that everyone does. I don't.

          I agree with JoeyDot, I think his willingness to simply say he doesn't know demonstrates commendable integrity.

        • Social pressure? Huh? As the hardware lead of major product it's his professional responsibility to understand the technical reasons behind the limitations of his products.

          Nope. It's his job to maintain and lead an effective team of developers that collectively know all the answers.
          Being a good manager and having encyclopedic knowledge of the technical details of a product are orthogonal skills.

          • You've got that backwards. It's a technical manager's job to receive the list of features a product should have and work with his engineers to get them implemented. If the engineers can't implement one of those features it's the manager's job to understand why and relay that information back to the company.

            • That sounds like the product architect to me.

              It depends how big the company and project is. A phone development is a big big project with lots of people. So product arch and project management are unlikely to be embodied in the same person.

        • Comment removed based on user account deletion

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by sjames ( 1099 )

          It is his professional responsibility to understand the reasons behind limitations in the HARDWARE. If the hardware isn't the issue here, "I don't know" may be the best answer for him to give.

          Would you prefer that he just blow some smoke and make something up while throwing someone else under the bus?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by godrik ( 1287354 )

        Thank you!

        I also appreciate when engineers tell you they don't know something. I don't have time to listen to the 40 minute podcast, but it would be nice to have surrounding context.

        Is it "there is a bottleneck that we are still tracking down"?
        Is it "it was not a priority so we did not pay attention"?
        Is it "There was a memo but right now I don't remember the remember the reason"?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by sjames ( 1099 )

          The hardware supports it but the software doesn't?

          Hardware and software support it but the product manager nixed additional licensing fees?

          Legal nixed it because of some sort of obscure patent issue?

          We mentioned it to one of the carriers and his face turned green, blood shot out of his eyes, and he lost his lunch all over the conference table, we're not sure why...

          We have a prototype version that can do it, but on 5G it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Killall -9 Bash ( 622952 )
      I would assume "don't know" actually means "not allowed to say."

      • I would assume "don't know" actually means "not allowed to say."

        Who would tell the SVP of hardware that he's not allowed to say? This is his organization and his business.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Pascoea ( 968200 )

          Who would tell the SVP of hardware that he's not allowed to say?

          Probably his boss.

          • Who would tell the SVP of hardware that he's not allowed to say?

            Probably his boss.

            His boss is Sundar Pichai, the CEO. There's no way the CEO is going to second-guess his head of hardware about what should or shouldn't be said about the hardware business.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by Pascoea ( 968200 )

              Probably his boss.

              His boss is Sundar Pichai, the CEO. There's no way the CEO is going to second-guess his head of hardware about what should or shouldn't be said about the hardware business.

              I would respectfully disagree. Say, for example, some corner was cut in the design or they didn't want to pay to license some part of the SoC, and now the phone can't do what other comparable devices do. If that was a business decision, the CEO may have been involved, and may not want that particular topic discussed in a public forum. I would assume there's the same type of "Do you want this done the right way or the fast way" conversations that I have with my boss happening at the higher levels of manag

              • I would respectfully disagree. Say, for example, some corner was cut in the design or they didn't want to pay to license some part of the SoC, and now the phone can't do what other comparable devices do. If that was a business decision, the CEO may have been involved

                Highly unlikely. Google is way too large and diverse for the CEO to pay attention to details like that. That's what SVPs, who lead large divisions, and their subordinates do.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        More like "we screwed up".

        They botched the face ID too, it works with eyes closed.

        It's not much of an upgrade over the 3 and the price is too high.

    • To be fair "Hardware Chief" is less of a technical job, but management. He was probably more concerned about employee vacation time on what the hardware could do.

      That said, I expect the fact that the Pixel does a lot of software corrections to make picture quality so nice and more affordable than Apple (who opts for more of a hardware approach), that this processing to improve image quality on a cheaper camera, is probably taking the CPU away from what is needed for 4k60fps.

      Google thinks of products like a

      • That said, I expect the fact that the Pixel does a lot of software corrections to make picture quality so nice and more affordable than Apple (who opts for more of a hardware approach), that this processing to improve image quality on a cheaper camera, is probably taking the CPU away from what is needed for 4k60fps.

        They could have it both ways, if only Google knew how to develop Embedded, Real-Time system-software.

        If you are running-short on CPU cycles to complete processing of already-recorded data in "real-time", then you simply buffer the unprocessed data, and let the CPU (SoC) "catch up" when it has spare time to do so. This can be done incrementally even while recording is still going on, using an additional processing thread, possibly running on another CPU Core.

        But that's only if you control the whole software

        • If you are running-short on CPU cycles to complete processing of already-recorded data in "real-time", then you simply buffer the unprocessed data, and let the CPU (SoC) "catch up" when it has spare time to do so.

          Multiple problems:

          1) Now your main storage (because that's the only thing large enough) has to babe able to handle the data rate of the raw video flow, instead of being able to save off much more highly compressed image data. Which also consumes more power.

          2) You chew up a VASTLY greater amount of

      • All your points are wrong (Score:4, Informative)

        by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Friday October 18, 2019 @01:00PM (#59322522)

        To be fair "Hardware Chief" is less of a technical job,

        Come on, it's been years since most high end smartphone makers offer 60FPS 4k video at this point, even a position at a high level labeled "hardware chief" should be ASKING those questions, and would have done so at least a year or two ago. That he has no answer...

        That said, I expect the fact that the Pixel does a lot of software corrections to make picture quality so nice

        So does Apple, which in comparison videos does a WAY better job of video stabilization for 4K video.

        more affordable than Apple

        Pixel 4 is $800 for 64 GB model, iPhone 11 64 GB model which supports all advanced photo and video processing features, is $699.

        is probably taking the CPU away from what is needed for 4k60fps.

        CPU has nothing to do with it, you are either processing that with a GPU or not at all.

        So if software can compensate for hardware Google will lean towards that direction

        No mobile CPU can compensate for what a GPU can do with the same amount of power/time.

        It's not like the Pixel does not also have a powerful GPU.

        The Pixel is competitively cheaper than the iPhone

        The Pixel is literally a hundred dollars more.

        4k60 is a feature check mark

        May as well only support 1080p then right, as 4k itself is "just a feature checkmark".

        what we call smartphones today are not smart phones, they are smart camera's

        Ok this one point you got EXACTLY right and that also illustrates why this is a huge deal. Smartphones these days are way more about the camera for most people to so fail to offer such a basic option is crazy, a way bigger problem than a "checkmark".

      • Isn't most of the video processing handled by dedicated fixed-function hardware that's specifically built for just that? Sure it's possible to do video processing on general purpose cores, but it's not as efficient and when you're dealing with a small battery powered device, it's almost always better to trade die space for efficiency gains. Unless you meant to imply that the added CPU operations result in a need to throttle other parts of the chip. Hell, I think most of the SoCs even have specialized hardwa

        • Decent 4K60 *live* purely in software requires something like 36 cores (72 threads) or more on a desktop/server system. Try running x265 and see what kind of encoding frame rate it gets on your Intel CPU-based laptop or desktop. Think of the battery life trying to do this kind of processing purely in software on a phone. Somebody will also have to port the hand crafted assembly routines too. Furthermore, the memory bandwidth and throughout for this is huge. Look at the size of a RAW uncompressed versio

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Video quality has always been a bit of a weakness with the Pixel phones. The image stabilization is incredible but the actual video quality is mediocre.

        For photos the Pixel is unbeatable.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AHuxley ( 892839 )
          Re "a bit of a weakness"
          1. Find experts.
          2. Ask the question about 4K60 support. What is needed. Who makes what and at what price..
          3. Set the project to have 4K60.
          4. Design and test. More testing, more design. Study power, heat, video, quality... More testing and design.
          Find users to talk to about what they need, expect and want..

          Skilled workers, lots of design skill will finally bring together the hardware needed for 4K60...
          Its not a "weakness". Just set out that 4K60 is needed for that

    • The bigger question... why is 4k@60fps seen as an aspirational goal, instead of as an annoying limit? Modern imaging sensors SHOULD be capable of even higher & arbitrary framerates, for lots of good reasons:

      1. Judder-free playback at BOTH 50fps AND 60fps. Transcoding 60fps to 50fps is ugly. Transcoding 50fps to 60fps is just as bad. Capture at 300fps, and you can natively output at both, even if you only save the 110 frames/second that fall on a 50 or 60fps boundary & throw the remaining 190 away.

      2.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        The limitation is the encoding. You can trade quality for encoding speed but then why bother with 4k at all?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Cederic ( 9623 )

        Capture at 300fps

        That would require some serious hardware and chew battery life.

        You're also not capturing video in overcast conditions or anything darker than that - e.g. indoors - without trying to read two frames at the same time from the sensor, what with exposure times being rather constrained at that frame rate.

        Bump the nominal capture rate up to 600fps

        ..and your phone no longer fits in your pocket, and its power supply needs its own bag.

        This is also why we need displays that can do 600fps

        No. Even if we did give a flying fuck about your idiotic inability to cope with a tiny amount of judder on a miniscule numbe

        • > your idiotic inability to cope with a tiny amount of judder

          Starting ~5-10 years ago, there's been a literal PLAGUE of badly-converted videos. The absolute WORST are videos shot at 1080p25 that get hacked into fake 24fps by simply throwing away every 25th frame. You end up with double judder on a 60fps display... 3:2 pulldown, compounded by a jarring frame lurch every second.

          50-to-60 is ugly. 25-to-30-as-fake-60 is simply unwatchable. Way too many people think it's still (or ever was) acceptable to shoo

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Cederic ( 9623 )

            I shoot video at 1920x1080 60fps.

            I hope that meets your needs, but if not, you're very much welcome to not watch.

    • Saying it doesn't make it true.

  • Meanwhile my Snapdragon 845 based phone can perfectly record 4K 60fps videos.

    That must be a software limitation which is going to be lifted in Pixel 5 and announced as a new huge feature. Or it's just a bug. Still it's all kinda ugly.

  • Spyware? (Score:4, Funny)

    by VeryFluffyBunny ( 5037285 ) on Friday October 18, 2019 @12:24PM (#59322386)
    Does Google's spyware really take up that much processing power?

  • "I don't know. Wait, let me Google for it..."

  • your story's ultimate link is broken.

  • 4K video is pointless shit.

    • This summer we went to Tankfest at Bovington and shot a few clips of tanks doing their laps at 4K@60FPS. Watched them on my 4K TV, they look great. I am happy I chose to shoot those clips at that resolution, even though I was limited at 5 minutes per clip.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Cederic ( 9623 )

        I don't mind 4k support for the people such as yourself that want to wank over 60 tons of steel throwing dust into the air.

        I'm just not going to capture a full day's worth of 4K video because I don't have the storage and it'd take me four weeks to upload to Youtube, who would reprocess it and lose all of the definition and quality anyway.

        4K is great if you're working professionally or capture a couple of minutes of video, but shit, I don't even own a 4k tv and most people watch video on their phone. It's ju

        • I don't mind 4k support for the people such as yourself that want to wank over 60 tons of steel throwing dust into the air.

          Wow, that was deep *slowclap*.
          Armored vehicles are a part of warfare which is a part of history, and I happen to like history. During that trip to the UK I also visited Monkey World, The Tutankhamen Museum, The Teddy Bear Museum and others. I didn't wank over either but hey, to each his own.

          As far as 4K recording goes, I usually take video shots between 30 seconds and a couple minutes tops, and they might as well be in 4K for what it's worth. Pointless today? Maybe. But 5 to 10 years from now I will thank m

  • Ow. That hurts. Is it a Freudian slip or just someone who doesn't understand how English grammar works? Or is it a typo: "lied" in place of "lies"?

    There's a difference between "lie" as in "tell a lie" (past tense "lied") and "lie" (intransitive) as in "I need to lie down" (past tense "lay").

  • Google only gives you three years of security updates. Apple has provided five, as of late. A phone is of limited value to me once it's no longer supported. I'd consider an Android, but their flagship phones shouldn't cost as much as Apple's when their longevity is much shorter.

  • I got Galaxy S10+ a few months ago. Dual SIM with an SD card slot. Super difficult to find this these days. I went with it because it has IP68 and a camera that's about as good as you can get in a phone.

    Main issue is that rooting it is annoying as hell and can't be done with a Snapdragon CPU. Only Exynos. But whatever I managed to get a Pixel based ROM on it without any Samsung crap on it.

    So.... I have an $800 phone with no warranty. I was looking forward to the Pixel 4 XL cause it could have been a good re

  • ... the bottleneck LAY." Jesus, learn the language. https://jakubmarian.com/lie-li... [jakubmarian.com]

  • It should be applauded, not ridiculed. It is honest and to the point, good engineers do not jump to conclusions without facts. There is far too much of that or spinning marketing bullshit.

  • Heat.
    Someone did not consider 4K60 when listing the parts needed for the design.
    Been an ad company people where working hard on the ad part of the project.

    Want a 4K60 device, list it as the first thing expected from the project.
    The staff/experts will then see that as something expected and work hard to ensure the project has that feature.
    4K60 cant be done? Then bring in people who can work on that project.

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