Europe Takes on China, US With Plan To Regulate Global Tech (bloomberg.com) 82
U.S. and Chinese firms hoping to deploy artificial intelligence and other technology in Europe will have to submit to a slew of new rules and tests, under a set of plans unveiled by the European Union to boost the bloc's digital economy. From a report: The legislative plans, outlined on Wednesday by the European Commission, the bloc's executive body, are designed to help Europe compete with the U.S. and China's technological power while still championing EU rights. The move is the latest attempt by the bloc to leverage the power of its vast, developed market to set global standards that companies around the world are forced to follow. Big U.S. companies, like Facebook and Alphabet's Google, won't get any reprieve from the Commission, which in its Digital Services Act plans to overhaul rules around legal liability for tech firms, and is also exploring legislation for 'gate-keeping' platforms that control their ecosystems. "It's not us that need to adapt to today's platforms. It's the platforms that need to adapt to Europe," European Industry Commissioner Thierry Breton said at a press conference in Brussels. If they can't find a way adapt to the bloc's standards, "then we will have to regulate and we are ready to do this in the Digital Services Act at the end of this year."
Never been to Europe [Re:Europe returns to Dar...] (Score:5, Insightful)
As the US and China rocket past Europe in technological deployments,
I take it you've never been to Europe. Their level of technological development is equal or ahead of the U.S. in most everyday technologies.
American and Chinese citizens enjoy a much higher standard of living and level of wealth
OK, you have definitely never been to Europe if you think America and China have a higher standard of living.
Or possibly you've never left Silicon Valley, and think all of America has the standard of living of a random software engineer earning $250K plus stock options and living in a condo in San Jose.
Re: Never been to Europe [Re:Europe returns to Dar (Score:5, Informative)
First two countries in terms of median income are Luxembourg and Sweden. The US is third in median income. http://worldpopulationreview.c... [worldpopul...review.com]
The rest of your data is skewed as well. Where are you even getting this "data?" The Mises Institute?
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numbers are hardly the go to proof for something like this so neither of you are on target here.
When it comes to the question of who is more high tech... you cannot boast from the averages.
Where is the "Tech" in question coming from. Was it designed and fabricated in yours or their country? Where is all the knowledge?
When it comes to being the most High Tech... the word MOST applies which means Pinnacle not Volume. So the Nation with the most high tech device in its borders is the most high tech and base
Re: Never been to Europe [Re:Europe returns to Dar (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh yeah, those "numbers" just can't be trusted. What we need here are feelings and hunches.
And, just to be clear, this conversational thread was about income among other topics. Not just who is more "high tech," as if that actually mattered. If low tech, or middle tech, or sideways tech makes more people more happy, then it's better than "high tech." And to be clear, "Let's do something we've always done, but do it on the Internet, and not pay our workers well" is NOT "high tech." It's just exploitation, with more steps.
So, who is happier?
https://eand.co/why-are-europe... [eand.co]
https://www.theguardian.com/wo... [theguardian.com]
https://www.wbur.org/cognoscen... [wbur.org]
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"Oh yeah, those "numbers" just can't be trusted. What we need here are feelings and hunches."
Well, I am not talking directly to those, but lets go ahead and talk about the numbers and how much they can be trusted. Which numbers do you trust? The ones that says the median income is X amount? Well what does that actually mean? The median income in places that are expensive to live is actual poverty to live there in reality. How about median income in places that are inexpensive to live... you can live li
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Nobody is asking "what makes you happy?" This is self reported happiness, just asking "Are you happy, yes or no?" More people in Europe say they are happy. Period. Make of that what you will. Me? I think when more people say they are happy, it means those people are, in fact, happier than people who say they aren't happy. Weird, right?
So, this whole "cost of living" hand-waving you did. Why not actually look up some numbers? Could it be, oh I don;t know, the numbers don't help your argument? Hmmm, looks lik
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--Nobody is asking "what makes you happy?"--
I have a policy about phrasing. It does not matter how you word it, but the question of happiness is always... what makes you happy?.
there is just no way around it. You can ask... are you happy? but that is just an indirect way of asking the same question.
If you have 1 job with x amount of income with 1 wife and 2 well heeled children and you say that you are happy... then you just also answered the "what makes you happy?" question.
"Could it be, oh I don;t know
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Okay, you've clearly stated what does NOT matter in your world view. Now, tell us what does matter in your ontology.
If prisoners in cell block D state they are happy, while prisoners in cell block A state they are not, I would look at, you guessed it, the specific circumstances. It is, after all, circumstances that make the difference between happy and unhappy. I would bet that when we investigated, we would find empirical differences between cell block D and A, and that if we replicated the conditions of b
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No, it does not matter in anyones world view, that is the mistake you are making.
I am not preoccupied with how much the median income is, I am preoccupied with MY income. I am not preoccupied with my happiness vs anyone else's happiness, I am preoccupied with my happiness and by proxy the people I care about and their happiness.
"If prisoners in cell block D state they are happy, while prisoners in cell block A state they are not, I would look at, you guessed it, the specific circumstances."
And if you canno
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Another wall of trash text no one will read. You aren't arguing in good faith, so I'm not reading. And nobody else is following the thread this deep. Hope you had fun writing it.
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Not to mention - I guarantee your PERSONAL utility is wherever you like living the most.
All other arguments are ridiculous - and normally put forward by people who want to talk up their city but aren't really happy living in X city.
You can have a great life in at *least* half the cities on the planet, I'm not going to even try to make my analysis more in depth than that.
If you're arguing X place is "better/best" because of income, size, technological Y, you're a wanker. Full stop.
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So let's cherry pick data about the US, and only use the red states. How about that, hmmmm? If we compare the worst parts of Europe to the podunk backwaters of the US, who comes off better? I mean, if the red rural states weren't living off the productive blue urban states, they'd all be bankrupt. Those red states take in more in federal money than they pay in taxes. Moochers, calling the productive liberal city dwellers the leaches.
https://wallethub.com/edu/stat... [wallethub.com]
Re: Never been to Europe [Re:Europe returns to Da (Score:1)
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Oh boo hoo, does the fact that leftists are supporting the right wing moochers make you sad? I mean, lets not cherry pick just two states, I linked that stat because when you look at it, you can see the trend, not just the few exceptions you cherry picked. I invite everyone reading this to look for themselves. The trend is clear.
As for food, California is America's bread basket. The blue states don't need red state food, and if it weren't for the ag subsidies those red states receive from blue state taxes,
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Those two 'countries' are - population wise - equivalent to small regional cities in the US. The Bay area has 4.7 million people (about 8 times the population of Luxembourg), is about 2.5 times the area of Luxembourg, and has a higher GDP per capita than Luxembourg [wikipedia.org].
Sweden is about the size of California, about 1/4 the population of California, and Sweden has a lower GDP per capita than California [wikipedia.org].
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And? Do you have an actual point?
I mean, first and foremost, with the rampant income inequality in the US, it is highly dishonest to use anything but medians. Averages or totals are just hiding the fact that the average American is not feeling very secure, economically. Oh sure, the US loves to promote meaningless numbers like stock market averages or low unemployment. But wages have been stagnant for decades, for most people. That's why inflation is so low, most Americans have very little purchasing power,
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When you start off your argument with an insult, you've lost the game.
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If that help you get through the day, I am fine with that.
I went in knowing I was talking with a moron that fails to understand basic life. You have never endured hardship enough to understand things. You live in the lap of luxury and still bitch.
Most of us... even our "poor" and "unhappy" live better than kings from even 100 years ago.
You perspective is skewed and your metrics bullshit. The numbers are subjective because the measuring system is subjective. I too can crap out any number you want... just
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Why would you write such a wall of useless text? This far into the thread, it's only you and me. And I didn't read it. You wasted your time with that. Good day.
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I read it - and the fact you're walking away kind of proves his point. Income inequality at a gross level is MUCH worse in the EU than in the US, By a 2:1 ratio, people in the US feel good about the US economy, and you've probably grown up in a very privileged life, never really knowing hardship (and no, having to borrow a few bucks from mom and dad to pay for your cellphone does NOT qualify as hardship).
Go live in Sofia, Bulgaria for a year, on Bulgarian average wages ($700 per month), and come back and
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Bullshit, no sources, mere opinions from a known propagandist who never argues in good faith, coming in late to cover for another member of your cult. Thanks "LynwoodRooster" you've given me a laugh, you powerless, limp dicked authoritarian bullshit spreader.
Let me know when you've got sources for your fake statistics, m'kay? I might pay attention then. As it is, why should I bother? Nothing I or anyone else could say could possibly change your mind, and no one but similar obsessed cultists are reading this
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The points, you ignored. Perhaps because they are inconvenient to you? The US is about equal to Luxembourg [oecdbetterlifeindex.org]; given that Luxembourg hardly qualifies as a city, let alone a country in the rest of the world, that's not bad.
Looking at median household incomes [worldpopul...review.com], we see in Luxembourg is it about $52,000; in Romania (also an EU member) is it under $8,000. A ratio of about 7 to 1.
Looking at the US [worldpopul...review.com], we see it peaks in Washington, DC ($82K, and a few more people than Luxembourg), and is lowest in Mississippi at
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That's some shenanigans you've got there.
Re: Never been to Europe [Re:Europe returns to Da (Score:2)
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Of course you cited the EU as a single entity, because countries like Greece drag down the average. And your "over burdensome regulations" are, in fact, what the citizens of the EU have decided is more important for improving their quality of life. They say they are happy, why don't you believe them? If "high tech" doesn't make people happy, then what is the actual point?
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I think part of his problem is that he's generalizing "Europe" as a singular entity, though I guess in fairness, the US standard of living also varies significantly depending on where you go.
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Absolutely. Assuming these numbers are correct, the cost of health care alone would drive the amount of real income that Americans get well, well, down that list.
Re: Never been to Europe [Re:Europe returns to Da (Score:2)
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There's a reason Europe has 0 of the top 25 tech firms in its borders
After a quick search:
- SAP: 9th, Germany
- Accenture: 15th, Ireland
- ASML: 18th, Netherlands
Europe has plenty (Score:1)
Microsoft - Ireland
Google - Ireland
Apple - Ireland
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Everyone can plainly see you moving the goal posts there. Originally, it was top 25. You had to move that post down to 16, and choose a specific measure at that.
Hey, I know! let's compare broadband coverage! Wait, so now being a big country is a disadvantage, not an advantage? Weird how that changes depending on the point you want to prove. And lets not forget, we gave our telecommunications companies a bunch of public funds to cover the rural areas. And yet, they did not.
Oof bud, American style capitalism
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Re: Never been to Europe [Re:Europe returns to Dar (Score:2)
Or possibly you've never left Silicon Valley, and think all of America has the standard of living of a random software engineer earning $250K plus stock options and living in a condo in San Jose.
Or, neither place is homogeneous, and sweeping statements like the one you made are disingenuous at best. This is especially true considering the vast landmass of the United States compared to Europe. We also have a much lower population density, so there is invariably going to be more rural areas here.
Most places in the US don't require a 250k income in order to be well off, in fact only half of that will do you more favors here in Phoenix than 250k would in Silicon Valley. Phoenix is itself almost exactly
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Re: Never been to Europe [Re:Europe returns to Dar (Score:1)
I live in Europe (and traveled it extensively, lived in several different countries, etc.) and it doesn't look like anything like you describe it as.
Must be the dogma you were brainwashed to repeat: "Europe is great, Europe is the best, don't ask questions, especially not about the inequality between countries".
I take it you've never been to Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Greece or even France since they got scammed into joining the EU.
Having been to these countries in the last 12 months I can confirm that they
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Their level of technological development is equal or ahead of the U.S. in most everyday technologies.
From the time I've spent in Europe I'd generally agree. But the question is, who is developing these technologies that are being used every day? Because it feels like either Chinese hardware and software, or Chinese hardware and US software, make up a disproportionate amount of these every day technologies. So while they might USE the technology, I don't think that's the central concern. I think it's about who is producing those technologies, right?
And I completely realize you aren't arguing otherwi
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Oh authoritarian propaganda bot, you so silly. We have the Internet these days, we talk to people from around the world ourselves. You have no power here.
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You have no power here.
That's right. Your service provider has all the power. A simple pair of wire cutters and you ain't talkin' to nobody. We have to watch over them and keep the connection wide open. And we definitely need alternative methods of connecting so that the ISP, censorship, and anything else relating to content ceases to be an issue altogether.
Re: Europe returns to Dark Ages (Score:1)
https://www.webfx.com/blog/int... [webfx.com]
Let's not get started on public transport, health care and working conditions, ignorant yankee...
BTW, most new medicines that US companies make billions from are developed in Europe, specifically Germany.
Also, when a severe storm that destroys a city in the US hits the Netherlands we continue to cycle. That 'protection' you had at New Orleans induces hysterical laughter here (actually I flew from Chicago to Amsterdam on the day Katrina landed and showed an elderly US gentlem
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You want to make a chip? Any modern chip at all? Then you buy chip making machines from ASML. Only manufacturer in the world.
Or, for example, from Applied Materials (Silicon Valley). And you buy machines from Teradyne (Boston) or Advantest (Tokyo) to test the chips you make. Only manufacturer in the world? Well, no. But they are currently the largest supplier of photolithography equipment. Broaden your horizons, friend.
Re: Europe returns to Dark Ages (Score:1)
Oh yes bicycles, the highlight of technology.
Holland produces practically nothing of interest for society/the rest of the world.
I lived there for 8-9 years, and haven't seen any serious tech, not as a workplace (what serious tech company runs out of Holland?), not as a service for the public (crap public transport, crap hospitals, crap healthcare scam, collapsing buildings, destroyed streets, because who the hell builds a country on a swamp?).
It doesn't take much to realize that the Dutch government is awar
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Voters here.
Most of those programs are paid for from government raids on tax payers. You aren't allowed to show the pre tax amount in Europe because you're not allowed to know how much your pocket is getting picked so some freeloaders can sit in Brussels and pretend like they run the world. At least the DC version doesn't do it as bad.
You know who makes basically all chips? Intel. Is that an EU or a US corporation? Hmm.
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I don't think it works that way. Europe doesn't really benefit by being the customer of US and China based corporations, so discouraging their intrusion doesn't hurt Europe, though it may annoy those who life revolves around, say, Facebook. And the time to do it is now, since they didn't start a couple of decades ago.
The important thing is to do this in a way that doesn't disadvantage those companies that benefit Europe. As they say "the devil is in the details".
It's almost as if... (Score:2, Insightful)
... the EU is trying to figure out how far they can push the rest of the world, before the rest of the world says, "Fine, do your own thing, call us when you figure out we don't need your market as much as you think we do."
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Re: It's almost as if... (Score:2, Flamebait)
Europe: Missed the boat entirely and can only tax and fine their way forward. Bunch of old white guys. Massive taxes supporting social programs so this fits their creed, why work when we can take from others.
China: Rape and pillage the environment, citizens, and anything within arms reach to forward the dictatorship. Shoot anyone who doesnâ(TM)t comply.
US: Outsource raping and pillaging nimby style, hand the entire population to the companies on a silver platter, all for kickbacks and political powe
Re: It's almost as if... (Score:2)
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Nah, Facebook and Google aren't going to pull out of Europe just because they get regulated or have to pay a bit of tax. It's still a hugely lucrative market for them and besides they need to be there to maintain their dominance. If Facebook left and a European social network took their place in Europe it would have a huge, affluent (by global standards) userbase and be in a prime position to offer the US a service with greater privacy and respect for the user.
They only need to pull features. (Score:1)
Nah, Facebook and Google aren't going to pull out of Europe just because they get regulated
They wouldn't pull out, they would just pull features from anyone in the EU.
The results of regulating AI heavily will be that the EU is a kind of digital backwater. In a way this could be good, it could give third world countries quickly modernizing a bit of a leg up as they can operate without constraints.
mission accomplished (Score:2)
They wouldn't pull out, they would just pull features from anyone in the EU.
Then EU can compete by adding back those features in a legal way. Just as planned.
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The mouse that roared.
I have gotten modded to oblivion when pointing this out. The EU is a nearly irrelevant market. If they were genuinely concerned about the problems they are legislating against, they could just block the offending applications. But, no, they write a law against current business practices, in order to then extract "fines".
this reveals their real motives.
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The EU is a nearly irrelevant market.
Facebook made more than 17 billion dollars [statista.com] in 2019 from Europe, so you can indeed say Europe is nearly irrelevant for them - if, of course, you have no clue what "nearly" and "irrelevant" mean.
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This is the tail wagging the dog.
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... the EU is trying to figure out how far they can push the rest of the world, before the rest of the world says, "Fine, do your own thing, call us when you figure out we don't need your market as much as you think we do."
Tell that to shareholders. There's a long *LONG* way to push. Compared to what China is doing EU in terms of protectionism and controlling foreign entities these proposals are laughably mild, and yet companies fall over backwards to do business in China ... a country with a bigger population but with 1/3rd of the mean adult wealth and significantly lower median wealth too.
Sure it will work! (Score:1)
I wouldn't miss them (Score:1)
Headline: Facebook and Google tracking everyone
Comments: They destroyed the Internet and should be regulated
Headline: UE to regulate Facebook and Google
Comments: OMG! They should just leave. UE wouldn't survive without them!
I, for one, would be ecstatic if Facebook stopped doing business in UE.
As they say in the EU... (Score:1)
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If you can't beat them - regulate them!
As they say in the US - If you don't like the rules, buy new ones.
More bullshit calls for censorship (Score:1)
Regulation of content is nobody's business. The only "gatekeeper" we need to regulate is the ISP, and there the only problem is the closed market. Once we can get around them all other problems are solved.
I wonder how they'll all find the time (Score:1)
Self-Important Eurocrats (Score:2)
The EU bureaucrats have a vibrant sense of self-importance and hubris that seems to know no bounds. Now that the UK has withdrawn from the European Union, the EU is demanding to keep control over UK laws and resources, and demand that the UK conform to the thousands of "standards" the EU bureaucracy has produced. Fortunately, the UK government is resisting this overreach. It should come as no surprise that the EU also wants to dominate global information networks. If these people are allowed to continue
EU will do what US doesn't dare (Score:2)
Yep, if the US can't keep their tech companies under control, we'll do it for you. You can thank us later when you adopt similar laws.
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You can thank us for giving you the internet, OS's, and everything that came out of SV.