How Elon Musk Wants To Transform Homes With 'No Wasted Energy' (inverse.com) 94
During a Twitter discussion this week about the company's new vehicle, the all-electric Model Y SUV, CEO Elon Musk suggested the company could take its experience building the car to develop an HVAC system. From a report The acronym stands for heating, ventilation, and air conditioning. Musk suggested that the idea could build on the work done to develop a heat pump for the Model Y. "Sure would love to do home hvac that's quiet and efficient, with humidity control & HEPA filter," Musk wrote on his Twitter page. When asked whether it would do cooling or heating, Musk replied "both." The idea could expand on some of Tesla's existing wins, taking its existing product portfolio and expanding it in a logical way.
While Tesla is known to most as a car company, Musk's "house of the future" presentation in October 2016 painted a more holistic picture: a Model 3 sedan charging in a garage, powered by a Tesla Powerwall battery. That battery is topped up with power from a Tesla Solar Roof, creating a zero-emissions energy system for both home and travel. It's easy to see how an HVAC, a high-energy product that draws on systems built into Tesla vehicles, could fit into this strategy. Musk suggested a number of ideas for this new product. He suggested the system could work with the vehicle to reach the perfect temperatures: "House could talk to car & know when you're expected home, so temp and humidity would be perfect just as you arrive. No wasted energy."
While Tesla is known to most as a car company, Musk's "house of the future" presentation in October 2016 painted a more holistic picture: a Model 3 sedan charging in a garage, powered by a Tesla Powerwall battery. That battery is topped up with power from a Tesla Solar Roof, creating a zero-emissions energy system for both home and travel. It's easy to see how an HVAC, a high-energy product that draws on systems built into Tesla vehicles, could fit into this strategy. Musk suggested a number of ideas for this new product. He suggested the system could work with the vehicle to reach the perfect temperatures: "House could talk to car & know when you're expected home, so temp and humidity would be perfect just as you arrive. No wasted energy."
In this country.. (Score:2)
.. we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
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and HVAC refrigerants contribute to global warming (Score:2)
Only high-pressure CO2 heat pumps may be truly beneficial in combatting climate change, due to the fact that heat pump working fluids all have extremely high global warming potential (GWP) (e.g. 1000s of times higher than CO2) when they escape into the atmosphere.
This idea needs to be thought through from a complete lifecycle effects perspective.
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Though not exactly commonly used in residential systems, propane has a GWP of around 4, and ammonia has a GWP of 0. Those are both very efficient refrigerants, and widely in use, ammonia, especially, altough they obviously have other issues needing care when using them. A lot of good refrigerants have relatively low GWPs, but the devil is in the details as they often come with
Re: and HVAC refrigerants contribute to global war (Score:2)
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The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia
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then the electricyt you produced on the roof is yours
lost american and chinese
Existing HVAC solutions are already very efficient (Score:4, Interesting)
I think Musk should really have a product before he brags about it.
Or call himself a futurist and just write his ideas in a book.
"I think I might invent a meal in a pill which also cures all diseases"
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US systems still have a pretty long way to go compared to northern Europe. I looked at a fairly standard system in a house that had a recuperator to pre-condition outside air with exhaust air, and then used the cooler exhaust air (but still warmer than outside) for a heat pump circuit, all tied to a low temperature hydronic heating system. There was also supplemental ground source heat rejection/absorption, and some slick little cooling options for those occasional warm summer days.
But, the reason for the
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In many places, the improved efficiency will not provide a sufficient payback in the equipment lifetime.
A big reason for this is cheap shale gas in America. Natural gas prices in America are about half what they are in Europe.
Re:Existing HVAC solutions are already very effici (Score:4, Informative)
There isn't a good "one size fits all" solution. Where I live (Central Texas) summers are very hot, with quite mild. Heating is infrequently used. Ground source heat pumps are very expensive because of the combination of soil type and typical heat differentials. Pretty much, there is no soil, so a ground source heat pump needs to be drilled into the limestone (very expensive), the ground near the surface is pretty warm, so you need more wells (or deeper wells) in your loop. For a SWAG- a 2000 sq. ft home in this region needs about a 3.5 ton system, ground source needs on the order of 300ft/ton, or about 1000' of well. Through rock, the cost is on the order of $50/ft- so you can be approaching $50,000 just to drill the well! The well (or at least the pipes) don't have an infinite lifetime, either.
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Usually they say 1 ton per bore, with bores at about 200-300’ maximum depth. A small trailer-mounted water drilling rig will do the job; I would be surprised if the cost was over $10k. The pipes should last 50 years for this type of installation, and a 12-year payback would usually be expected.
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Your numbers kinda confirm what I said- at 1 ton per bore and 200-300' per bore, that is, roughly 700' to 1000' of overall bore. Homeadvisor [homeadvisor.com] says the current cost of drilling a well in Texas is $30-$55 per foot, and that is only the cost of the actual drilling. So, on the low end, $21,500, up to $55,000- for drilling through rock- I expect the higher numbers. And remember, this is a SWAG for a modest (by today's standard) home of 2000 sq ft, (3.5 ton HVAC). A super efficient home can potentially use less, b
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I worked at GE on air conditioning systems. The only difference between an "American" and a "European" system is the labeling on the button. Every other major manufacturer is doing the exact same thing.
The only reason that someone in northern Europe would have an advanced system is that the expenditure for a more complex system would pay for itself over time. Where I live, OTOH, it never gets cold enough for those elaborate systems to make a difference. The systems you're pointing out are regularly ins
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Like him or not. Musk does have a good track record of producing, and under-promising and over-delivering.
For those old enough think back 20 years ago.
Non-government owned space industry? Space-X is doing a good portion of American Space flights after the shuttle was retired. Also winning the X-Prize.
Solar panels on people's homes? Solar City (which is now part of Tesla) made them affordable enough to be effective for average people. To the point where even the Mennonites who live in my community have sola
Re:Existing HVAC solutions are already very effici (Score:4)
Like him or not. Musk does have a good track record of producing, and under-promising and over-delivering.
It's the other way around. He over-promises and under-delivers.
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[Elon Musk] over-promises and under-delivers.
No, I don't agree.
What is true, undeniably, is that Elon Musk has underestimated how long it will take to deliver things. Many times he has given some date and the product shipped long after.
But the products themselves (when they finally shipped) have exceeded expectations. The Model S really was a game-changer [businessinsider.com] and the Model 3 was another game-changer [thedriven.io]. SpaceX is now launching dozens of missions per year. And SpaceX is the only American organization (and I mea
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The guy also said he'd have flying cars with cold-gas thrusters roflmao.
I wouldn't say he over-promises, but he certainly does over-mouth-off-on-twitter-without-thinking.
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cold-gas thrusters
Yeah. That whole thing is weird. Cold gas has low ISP and electric cars are heavy/massive so that seems like it would never work. And I for one would not like a super-high-pressure vessel immediately behind me in a car.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanocallaghan/2019/01/10/can-elon-musk-actually-make-a-flying-tesla-car/ [forbes.com]
he certainly does over-mouth-off-on-twitter-without-thinking
I agree completely.
The whole "take the stock private at $420" fiasco was a prime example of Musk being stu
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maybe you should have bought one instead of faking it?
I did buy a used 2012 Model S. I could post a photo or something to prove it, but I simply don't care about you.
Wrong.
I was mistaken. Thank you for the correction. No thank you for your obnoxious trolling.
It's pathetically easy to be a troll; it takes no effort or imagination. (You've already mastered it! Great job!) But it's boring and you are boring.
If you are so lonely, hey, I'm willing to talk to you. I come here to talk to people. All you ha
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All his ideas old too. Tesla is one of the last EVs to adopt heat pumps, the Leaf did about 7-8 years ago. They are already used in houses too.
There are already working zero emission, zero net energy houses that recycle waste matter and energy.
As usual because Musk says it somehow it's new and exciting and he is a genius for thinking of it long after everyone else.
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As usual because Musk says it somehow it's new and exciting
Perhaps because he actually does what he says he is going to do.
Ideas are cheap. Talk is even cheaper. Musk gives us action.
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You can buy a heat pump for your house now. Other people have been doing it for years.
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but it's not a heat pump, it's a HeaterLoop!
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That kind of new work all over an older home can allow city experts to demand upgrades.
Start looking over everything discovered during the upgrade when that "can buy a heat pump for your house now" work is started.
All kinds of new city demands get added to get approval to be a home again.
Thats the next and new city permit difference in the real world.
Didn't really need it (Score:1)
Tesla is one of the last EVs to adopt heat pumps, the Leaf did about 7-8 years ago.
As I understand it, Tesla actually went with a complex heat management system that transferred heat from the batteries and motors to the cabin, with only supplemental heat provided via direct electrical resistance. Cooling was a much bigger issue, so making the heating system be a heat pump, well, the gains were less.
Basically, Tesla's system is/was capable of deciding where to route the cooling fluid on trips between the batteries, motor, cabin, radiator, and AC system.
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Uh, he didn't claim to have invented it though? That said, what does this have to do with infringing patients? Covid-19 is a big deal right now, as far as I know, Musk is having his companies build ventilators, not molest patients.
That said, if you meant patent infringement, most likely not. Remember, Patents expire relatively quickly compared to copyright, within our lifetimes, even.
You posted a link to a house. Odds are, any patents that would apply to the house's system are either long expired or non
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Re:Existing HVAC sucks giant donkey balls (Score:4, Informative)
Most AC units are located on the ground, expending a ton of energy trying (and failing) to cool upper floors of a home, while freezing the basement.
I can't figure if you are a troll, or just that ignorant.
Heat rises, think about that. Then get proper return ducts and a thermostat that can be set to circulate the air to even out the temperatures.
As for arrogant Mr. Musk, well I am sure he knows better than the companies that have been developing HVAC since before he was born.
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I mean, it's one think to prove that you know better than all of the other automobile manufacturers and rocket scientists that were working in their respective fields since before you were born. But that just doesn't compare to the immense intellectual prowess that is rampant in the HVAC industry, now does it?
<eyeroll>
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This is just not true. Architects ignore plumbing and electrical just as much as they ignore HVAC (though they do not usually ignore lighting).
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(though they do not usually ignore lighting).
They do when they design hotels. How long after checkin does it usually take you to figure out the lights in your room?
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The "AC Unit" you see outside is only one piece of an HVAC system. There will be one or more heat exchangers located pretty much anywhere inside the house that do the actually cooling/heating of the interior.
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True, but those take time and money, which is something developers and contractors do not want to consider.
Not even close to true.
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Yep, insulate, insulate and insulate to passive house standards
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I think Musk should really have a product before he brags about it.
Elon Musk has a long track record of following through on his bragging.
The "big 3" of CO2 emissions are:
1. electricity generation
2. transportation
3. heating/cooling buildings.
A lot of effort has gone into the 1 and 2, but not enough into 3. I am happy to see Musk giving HVAC some attention.
Not all homes have them though (Score:2)
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I don't know what the relative efficiency of heat pumps vs. HVAC units works out to be, but we do know that Tesla ch
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Swamp coolers are only efficient if water is abundant, and where swap coolers are useful, water is usually in short supply. Swamp coolers also have a very limited range of effectiveness, because they can't get the leaving air temperature below the Wet Bulb temperature of the air they bring in, and they be supply air close to 100% relative humidity. So they can't really cool the indoors down to comfortable co
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It's a public company you have to let investors know how their investment is being handled.
The design needs to be far more advanced though. Largely factory made and shipped to site to be assembled. There should be a lot of strength in the component units, thinks rooms made in factory and then bolted together on site, the stronger and the more readily the components can be levelled again, the less work than needs to be done on foundations. I think an internal walls only design and once assembled you fix on
But that's not all! (Score:3)
a Model 3 sedan charging in a garage, powered by a Tesla Powerwall battery. That battery is topped up with power from a Tesla Solar Roof, creating a zero-emissions energy system...
While simultaneously creating a zero-balance in my savings accounts!
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Which in turns means you can close to accounts and stop paying for them since you don't need them anymore, thus freeing more money! It's a loss-neutral-win!
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Total cost of ownership of an EV is lower than for a comparable ICE car, and it has been since 2015 - https://cleantechnica.com/2018... [cleantechnica.com]. The purchase price is higher, but it's got much lower operating and maintenance costs (no oil or transmission, much less brake wear, much simpler "engine", etc.), and in Tesla's case, much lower collision rate. And, yes, that depends somewhat on subsidies, but the cost of manufacturing EVs (and in particular, batteries) has been dropping over time. Batteries have dropped f
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1. Way to take a joke way, way too seriously.
2. Way to ignore the wall battery and solar panel costs completely. You couldn't even kill a joke properly.
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You are overstating the claims in that study. It found that the least expensive BEV (Nissan Leaf), had barely lower TCO during a period of high fuel costs, and including government subsidies. I don't think you can extend that to other, more expensive vehicles, especially now that the US electric car incentives have phased out for both Tesla and GE.
One of the biggest issues is insurance. If you buy a more expensive car, your insurance costs will be higher, and for some reason, electric cars tend to be even
How about starting with something smaller? (Score:2)
How about a Tesla HVAC for campers/motorhomes first?
What about Tesla batteries, solar panels and charger kits while he's at it? A completely integrated solution from a single company instead of the quasi-random mess currently on the market?
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It's not really that big of a mess. And I don't want it all integrated. I want every function in its own module so that if it fails I don't have to replace the whole thing, or if a better component comes out I can swap it in.
Now, where did I put the link to the cheap source for leaf modules? They're cheaper than Tesla modules, and they can be more easily replaced than cells in a Tesla battery module. I got my Midnite solar classic 250...
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And I don't want it all integrated. I want every function in its own module so that if it fails I don't have to replace the whole thing, or if a better component comes out I can swap it in.
'Integrated' does not negate 'modular'; what they're talking about is having a single company producing a system where all the pieces are designed to work together from the start, rather than being patchworked from several different vendors. Although I'd be willing to bet that even if we did get modular designs where you could swap out one piece for a new one with more capacity, each manufacturer will make there systems with proprietary connectors to lock you in to their products.
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It's easy to replace or adapt connectors. What would be nice though is if everyone spoke the same protocol for remote control and monitoring. I don't much care whether it's CAN or Ethernet or fucking J1708 if they could all just agree on a network and a protocol.
Barring that, I at least want all protocols used to be open and freely available so that I can develop my own gateway, but the signaling really needs to be a common standard to keep costs down.
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you can buy a heat pump today sized for a camper or motor home. Thats all he is talking about, they are reasonably priced and plentiful and very useful as long as you aren't in a super cold climate. Its unlikely that Tesla will somehow blow the roof off of that market.
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And if he does, it's going to cost him a fortune in warranty repairs payouts.
And when you say "super cold" climate... how cold are we talking about?
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as I understand it heat pumps are more efficient than an electric heater until the outside temperature drops to 13 degree F, but it is likely less cost effective than natural gas before then, depending on where you live and the local cost of natural gas.
even here in boston it is fairly cold much of the year but it doesn't hit 13 degrees for that many days per year and its possible that it still works out reasonably well financially but the pros I have talked to suggest that you still have a functional tradi
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Right. Musk is talking about integration - right now when you get HVAC, powerwall, etc., from different suppliers they're not integrated well, because HVAC standards are prehistoric. Look for example at NEST - great tech, but very limited by the primitive HVAC technology that they have to plug into. If that were replaced by a smarter system, with a heat pump and better integration capabilities, integration with your car, power wall, solar panels, etc., could be more efficient. When all you can do is what's
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The camper etc market just tanked with the economy. Campers and motorhomes are luxury toys and distancing just killed tourism.
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Absolutely true. There are quite some few lived-in RVs, but far and away the majority of the business is in vacation travel. Work trailer business is also down. And equestrian events are being cancelled just like any other events, so the horse trailer repair business is also way down. This is a good time to see if your local RV and/or trailer repair business is open, as if they are they could probably use your business.
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That will not sell battery packs and cars, SUV connections.
Sell the car, battery, solar and now HVAC all as part of the same service.
The battery support has to understand what the car needs, what the city power is as a cost, the solar can support that day, the amount of HVAC use..
The issue is the construction indsutry (Score:4, Informative)
It isn't that we don't know how to design air ducts and ventilation systems, it is that doing so is extra costs that are often cut. Tradespeople simply take prefabricated ducts and eyeball it. So you have houses with leaky and inefficient ducts, this translates too hot and too cold rooms, this translates to energy waste. Attaching an ultra-efficient HVAC unit to this turd of a duct system is a waste. Sadly, your home is not a car.
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^ THIS ^
Were my "model home" attic HVAC unit be installed 180 degrees from it's actual position, all the ducts would have been about 3/4 of their current length and have less bends.
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There's no way a home builder can afford to hire engineers to design the HVAC or plumbing for each house, even if that subdivision is full of cookie-cutter houses.
You are charging too much. You can have residential HVAC system designed for under $10K, less if you don't need to have it signed. This is because CAD tools that largely automate this work exist.
Yes, if you design clean rooms or hospital HVAC systems it is entirely different game, but residential houses are not that complicated.
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It's shocking how terribly houses are built.
A couple examples from home shopping recently.
1) Nice town house $700,000 but on a busy street. They used double pane glass. So it there is a constant roar of traffic in the living room. For another $10,000 they might have built a home that someone would want to buy.
2) Nice town house $650,000. At least 3 of the stairs flexed substantially. 2 Door knobs barely were holding on. And one cabinet wouldn't close. It was BRAND NEW. It had only been on the
Hydronic HVAC should be the future (Score:2)
Hydronic systems have a lot of advantages. All air systems are impossible to retrofit and, spread allergens, needlessly stir up dust. Refrigerant loops are a maintenance headache and have become illegal to DIY.
Hydronic heat pump systems already exist, but it wouldn't be so bad for Musk to popularize and commoditize them further.
Elon rediscovers Passivhaus (Score:1)
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Thats the idea but with battery, car, city power, transport, energy use, heating, cooling, other power use and solar all able to network.
He's probably thinking about it because Model Y (Score:3)
The Tesla Model Y just started shipping, and one of its features is that instead of just an AC, it has a heat pump. (This is really a great feature; it's more efficient to collect and concentrate heat from the environment than to turn electricity into heat. Heating a car with a heat pump saves battery power, making the car more efficient.)
https://electrek.co/2020/03/23/tesla-model-y-heat-pump-elon-musk-best-engineering/ [electrek.co]
Since Tesla has two products already for the home (solar roof and Powerwall) and he's thinking about the heat pump in the Model Y, he made an offhand comment about Tesla getting into the home heat pump market. It's Twitter... talk is cheap. And Elon Musk has a history of just saying stuff on Twitter. Sometimes crazy stuff.
Also, while most people would probably think a gas central heater would be great for a home, Elon Musk is a true believer in catastrophic human-caused global warming, so naturally he would prefer homes to have electric heating and cooling (solar-powered of course, and preferably bought from Tesla).
I do like the idea that the car navigation system can tell the home when you will be home. You wouldn't have to even think about it, but your home would save power. But Tesla doesn't have to manufacture the home heat pump for this to be possible; it seems like an idea that the home smart thermostat industry (Nest and anyone else) could run with.
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You know ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Energy Recovery Ventilators (Score:2)
I wonder (Score:2)
Does Elon actually sit down and think things through or does he just come up with grand general ideas that lack specifics? Anyone can do that. I see a hundred people a day on Reddit that do that.
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HVAC does need more work (Score:2)
I recently had a heat pump fail on me at my house, and it was purchased new around 2014. After doing some research, I discovered a whole lot of them made in that time period have failed prematurely on people, because the evaporator coils tend to rust through and leak. I guess the general issue was, they were all competing to offer higher efficiency ratings at that time, and thinner coils improved the efficiency. Unfortunately, it was often at the expense of them springing leaks. It didn't help that many t
business trip (Score:1)