US Schools Are Banning Zoom and Switching To Microsoft Teams (betanews.com) 121
After many schools adopted Zoom to conduct online lessons during the coronavirus lockdown, concerns about security and privacy have led to a ban on the video conferencing software across the U.S. BetaNews reports: The chancellor of New York City's Department of Education Richard A Carranza sent an email to school principals telling them to "cease using Zoom as soon as possible." And he is not alone; schools in other parts of the country have taken similar action, and educators are now being trained to use Microsoft Teams as this has been suggested as a suitable alternative, partly because it is compliant with FERPA (Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act).
Documents seen by Chalkbeat show that principals in NYC have been told: "Based on the DOE's review of those documented concerns, the DOE will no longer permit the use of Zoom at this time." The Washington Post quotes Danielle Filson, spokesperson for the NYC Education Department, as saying: "Providing a safe and secure remote learning experience for our students is essential, and upon further review of security concerns, schools should move away from using Zoom as soon as possible. There are many new components to remote learning, and we are making real-time decisions in the best interest of our staff and student. We will support staff and students in transitioning to different platforms such as Microsoft Teams that have the same capabilities with appropriate security measures in place." Clark County Public Schools in Nevada, as well as schools in Utah, Washington State and beyond are looking into Zoom alternatives.
Documents seen by Chalkbeat show that principals in NYC have been told: "Based on the DOE's review of those documented concerns, the DOE will no longer permit the use of Zoom at this time." The Washington Post quotes Danielle Filson, spokesperson for the NYC Education Department, as saying: "Providing a safe and secure remote learning experience for our students is essential, and upon further review of security concerns, schools should move away from using Zoom as soon as possible. There are many new components to remote learning, and we are making real-time decisions in the best interest of our staff and student. We will support staff and students in transitioning to different platforms such as Microsoft Teams that have the same capabilities with appropriate security measures in place." Clark County Public Schools in Nevada, as well as schools in Utah, Washington State and beyond are looking into Zoom alternatives.
M$ Payola (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:M$ Payola (Score:5, Insightful)
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nah, MS has a toxic culture of exploiting H1B work visas. They paid some Indian smart guy $45k a year to make them rich. They also have a toxic culture of performance reviews that say you can only have one 4. You can only have 1 outstanding person, and you also MUST have someone rated as a shit performer. Its a toxic shit show.
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Speaking as somebody who was an H1B at Microsoft for several years, I can tell from personal experience, and from talking to other people in the same boat (on different teams etc) that they don't pay H1Bs any less than what they pay citizens.
Companies that exploit the H1B system in the manner that you describe are "consulting" sweat shops like Tata and InfoSys. They're also responsible for the bulk of H1B visas issued. Well, were, until the recent crackdown - which was one of the smarter things this adminis
Re: M$ Payola (Score:2)
Jitsi video bridge. You can host the server that redirects the video. Jitsi has been around as long as AIM. IMO, if the content of your discussion is confidential in any manner, then you should be hosting your own software and running the endpoints. Get your own jabber server like Openfire and keep your shit in-house. Im a developer that works with Thirdlane, a front end management system for Asterisk. They have had webRTC clients with video for a while. It uses the JVB for multi-point video. That too woul
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Re: M$ Payola (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: M$ Payola (Score:5, Insightful)
This was happening due to two things
- The meeting URLs being shared in the open internet instead of emailed
- No passwords on the meetings.
IE stupid things to do. Oh and also things you can easily also do with MS Teams and WebEx. It's routine for meetings to work like this, otherwise no one would be able to have sane webinars.
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This was happening due to two things
- The meeting URLs being shared in the open internet instead of emailed
- No passwords on the meetings.
IE stupid things to do. Oh and also things you can easily also do with MS Teams and WebEx. It's routine for meetings to work like this, otherwise no one would be able to have sane webinars.
If the security relies on its users collectively keeping secrets, then it is not secure. That is a flaw in the design and implementation. Based on all of the other security problems with Zoom and lies in their marketing, this is not a surprise.
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Either you did not read what I read, or you don't regularly participate in web conferences.
Web conferences very rarely use passwords. Like, next to never. This is because its a giant PITA when it comes to inviting others and distributing the password securely can't be done anyway.
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the approval of the group administrator) eliminates that problem.
Meeting Rooms are now enabled by default.
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I had a teams meeting the other day, and someone just sent me a link to join. No admin, just like zoom. The link opened a web page and gave me the option to either join in a browser or download Tteams, also just like zoom. Honestly, except for the colour scheme, I wouldn't have noticed the difference.
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For schools, the consensus is that Zoom is just too risky. For many schools, they are already MS shops, already have invested in the overhead, and the only reason teachers are using zoom because their friends said it was cool
We have not ran this scenario, so no one really know
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For schools, the consensus is that Zoom is just too risky.
Genuinely asking: do you know why this is the case? I've casually followed the news about how Zoom may be exposing information to third parties, and can see why that might be a problem for businesses who deal in secret information or for governments. I don't see why a school would care if someone eavesdrops on a lecture. Maybe if the participants are under 18 and then there are data privacy laws to be concerned about?
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But in reality schools do have an obligation to err on the side of caution to insure that no naughtiness occurs, and all too often it does not happen. In my state, every year, so associate teacher is hired who has some inappropriate with the kids. In most cases due dillagence would have prevented a hire
In the case of Zoom, the st
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Virtual +1, funny+informative.
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Having used Teams, it's a pretty lousy product.
Re: M$ Payola (Score:2)
Teams is just possibly better than a wet fart. Nothing more.
My boss loves Teams; thus we have been forced to use that unmitigated piece of shit for everything from intercompany chat (which it is horrible at) to webmeetings (which it is just barely functional at).
You cannot even drag it from one monitor to another and have it EVER realize the screen dimensions have changed!
In chat, you have to remember Every. Single. Time. to switch it into the Rich Text Editor mode; or as soon as you hit a carriage return,
Re:M$ Payola (Score:5, Informative)
Must be a good amount, schools are banning zoom but I've never heard of a single one in my area adopting MS teams. Most are avoiding live video altogether because have you seen what happens when you give 20 12-year video conference powers? It's not pretty.
Re:M$ Payola (Score:5, Interesting)
Most are avoiding live video altogether
My kids' school is using YouTube. The teacher records the video and the kids watch it. Then they do the exercises.
They use a WhatsApp chat for each class to collaborate on the homework.
It seems to work well. If a teacher has three classes in the same subject, they only have to make one video. They could also reuse the videos in future years.
My son's math teacher didn't even make a video. He just told the kids to watch the Khan Academy video on the subject. If the kids prefer, they can skip the video and just go straight to the exercises. My son learns better by doing than by watching, so he is learning better and faster than he would in a classroom.
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Is WhatsApp FERPA certified though? Thats being one of the political issues here. Because if it isn't, this might cause issues later (I'll admit, I just tried to crash myself a little but about FERPA, but it's easier said then done....)
The summery points out that Microsofts Teams is and thats one of the reasons its being allowed. (And if anyone is curious, G Suite for Education is also FERMA certified, how they can use it in schools)
https://cloud.google.com/security/compliance/ferpa/ [google.com]
https://www2.ed.gov/ [ed.gov]
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Is WhatsApp FERPA certified though?
FERPA covrers access and transmission of school records, not chit-chat between peers.
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Most aren't COPA certified, but that's a simple "Get your parent's permission first" disclaimer away from theoretical compliance.
COPPA is for 12-and-unders. My son is in high school so it doesn't apply.
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My kids' school is using YouTube. The teacher records the video and the kids watch it. Then they do the exercises.
They use a WhatsApp chat for each class to collaborate on the homework.
My Wife is doing the same thing except then hosts daily video conference sessions with all classes doing a common subject at the same time to allow students to ask questions. It's basically an invite for 80 people that is open for 2 hours. 5-10 people may join and ask a question then disappear again.
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Must be a good amount, schools are banning zoom but I've never heard of a single one in my area adopting MS teams.
Indeed. Most schools I've seen are adopting Google Hangouts.
Most are avoiding live video altogether because have you seen what happens when you give 20 12-year video conference powers? It's not pretty.
Errr what? What are you talking about. No one has "video conference powers" except the teacher. You can't stop students not attending or not showing their camera, but everything else in the meeting is not in the student's control in the slightest.
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While most MS products suck badly, this one surprisingly does not.
under page 1454 of the EULA no apple hardware on c (Score:2)
under page 1454 of the EULA no apple hardware on campuses
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I wouldn't put it past Betsy.
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Is there no conflict of interest commissioner or such? Seems like your whole government is corruptly manipulating the stock market for personal profit.
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Is there no conflict of interest commissioner or such? Seems like your whole government is corruptly manipulating the stock market for personal profit.
It's a lot harder to see that from inside the US, since the press corpse studiously ignores the subject entirely.
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Probably nothing. Schools typically switch to whatever is commonly understood and easily supplied through their existing office vendors. Schools where staff have Office licenses switch users to teams. Schools where staff have Docs licenses switch users to Google Hangouts.
Leave the conspiracy nuttery at home and use some common sense.
Zoom vs. Teams (Score:3, Insightful)
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That's a pretty bold claim, there.
Also possible this is just the usual "No one got fired for choosing IB^H^H Microsoft."
Re:Zoom vs. Teams (Score:5, Insightful)
Give Teams a few days with this new level of exposure... the trolls will come.
Re:Zoom vs. Teams (Score:5, Funny)
Like he said, give the 12 year olds a few days with it.
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Anybody else find it funny that for once it's the microsoft program that doesn't have the security issues?
The night is still young.
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Anybody else find it funny that for once it's the microsoft program
that doesn't have the security issues?
Considering zoom is a half-assed Teams clone, not really.
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Anybody else find it funny that for once it's the microsoft program that doesn't have the security issues?
Depending on the stupidity of the meeting host Teams can have all the same problems as Zoom (except for the encryption thing). Expect Teamsbombing to feature soon as more clueless users create open public meetings and then post the links to them online under the mistaken assumption that shouting to the world that you will be meeting in a public park gives you privacy.
Zoom is hyped: why? (Score:2)
Re:Zoom is hyped: why? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's better than Skype. But then again, Google Hangouts is better than Skype. Hell, two tin cans connected by a string are better than Skype, or as we like to call it, Shite.
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Well Skype is better than Teams in my view. Skype is buggy but it's slowly getting better. But because Skype was purchased by Microsoft rather than having been born inside Redmond, it is getting the shove out the door for an inferior in-house product.
Re:Zoom is hyped: why? (Score:4, Interesting)
So in this case, they are killing off an in house solution(Lync) for one based on a technology developed elsewhere(Skype video in teams)
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Re:Zoom is hyped: why? (Score:5, Interesting)
$ wget https://zoom.us/client/latest/... [zoom.us]
$ xar -x -f Zoom.pkg
$ cpio -iJvF zoomus.pkg/Scripts
Now open the pre and postinstall scripts in your favorite editor and ask yourself if that would pass code review.
No. No it would not.
And that is for the code that the customer can see.
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I have performed the steps you recommended, and I did look at the pre- and postinstall scripts. There is nothing suspicious in these scripts as far as I can tell.
What did I miss?
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They're likely referring to https://macpkghallofshame.tumb... [tumblr.com]
Works well, screen sharing and customization (Score:5, Informative)
There is nothing inherently better than other platforms (other than the "just works",
Remember this is a vast number of non-technical people using this this. That has a huge amount of value.
Beyond that though, some reasons why I personally like Zoom a lot more than other solutions:
- If anyone has a shoddy connection, Zoom seems to handle that much more gracefully. Overall video/audio connection quality seems better than other products.
- Screen sharing works really well and has a lot of options. You can share a desktop, a single window of an app, or a portion of a desktop.
There have been no bugs that impacted anything I ever did with it, and with any third party conferencing solution you are going to have to assume the possibility of monitoring is there. Does that stop Slack from being popular, no.
Other solutions work OK, sure, but if you want everyone to just be able to jump on a call easily without signing in to anything (is that even possible in Teams?) Zoom is a pretty good choice.
Zoom does work well on shitty ADSL (Score:3)
I can vouch for that. Certainly much better than Lynx (Skype for businesss).
Incidentally, Netflix also works much better than other services, works OK on 1mbs.
Many students will also have poor internet.
Most people only test there systems on their own high speed networks. Many Ajax riddled web pages fail with timing errors if your internet is a bit slow.
Re:Works well, screen sharing and customization (Score:5, Interesting)
* The ability to participate in a call without installing anything is great if you're inviting strangers of different ages.
* The ability for anyone to share their screen or a window is great for work in class with older learners.
* In many countries, Zoom allows people to call in from their phone if they have absolutely no internet.
* Unlike YouTube, you can interact. That forces people to attend at the given time, which can be great if you're trying to help kids fight procrastination ("I will look at that YouTube video... later.")
* Unlike YouTube, your stream is not interrupted by a bot for an arbitrary "community rules violation" without any merit, leaving viewers stranded.
* Security issues: sure, if you're discussing military purchasing, don't even touch Zoom. If you want to avoid unwelcome visitors while discussing linear equations in class, add a password to your room and enable the waiting room feature (Zoom started doing that automatically). Unless you're worried about Chinese government stealing your lesson plans, that is.
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As far as not installing anything goes - which video chat platform doesn't have a web client these days?
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Because higher ups in IT (and many lower downs) don't make informed decisions. They are very used to doing what everyone else does. If they do research it goes only so far as to read the a product's own marketing literature. This is the thinking that made everyone dump working solutions and jump onboard Azure cloud services for everything. You just need to hear that one of your colleagues somewhere else is using Zoom and then you jump all over it so that you're not left behind when the fashion bus leave
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Just works is extremely important for some uses.
For people who don't need security, Zoom's ease of setup and use is a big benefit.
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There is nothing inherently better than other platforms (other than the "just works", which obviously comes at the cost of security or privacy)
That is it. That is entirely why it is popular. Also they are stable in ways other products are not.
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The whiteboard works better than Teams and Hangouts. Teams is limited to video feed of 4 active speakers, and the server decides who is active when more than 4 people are making a noise.
I don't know why it's hyped, but each platform has upsides and downsides. My wife was exploring using Zoom when the announcement came that schools were closed, but during the staff meeting the day after the executive decision was made for everyone to use Hangouts - their school is a Google shop anyway.
Zoom and Teams (Score:4, Interesting)
I end up having to use both. Teams isn't bad, except when it comes to their phone conferencing. When everybody is on VOIP it isn't bad, but in my experience as soon as anybody dials in from a phone, audio quality goes downhill fast. I have much better luck with Zoom, especially under Linux and Android. For actual conferencing, I use Zoom.
The Teams Linux client is actually not bad, given if it's a Preview, but the Android client has a rough time dealing with even simple stuff like keeping a Bluetooth device active when a call comes in (even if it's ignored).
In Teams, at least using the Linux client, managing multiple chats and team threads is a PITA. There are workarounds, like launching browser sessions for individual Teams chats, but it'd be a lot better if you could just open multiple instances, but maybe they can't because of the audio integration (?).
I think both platforms are going to go through a challenging time now that the user base is becoming large enough to interest black hats. Teams will have its turn soon enough.
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Teams is limiting with 4 active feeds at a time. Okay for small conversations, not so much for larger ones. Otherwise it works really well.
That's for video conferencing anyway. The app and the design concept behind it is the biggest load of shit I've ever seen. Multi-tasking? What's that! We were fine doing one thing at a time in DOS we're fine doing it now.
Teams free has no phone access (Score:2)
What's the beef? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't get this.
First, Zoom has always given admin level controls to the host of the meeting. Same as other conferencing tools before it. So a teacher can eject anyone who isn't authorized or wanted to be there.
On top of that just don't admit them. On my last zoom hosting I found out that they changed it so the default is that I specifically have to admit everyone who joins manually. So nobody can crash a class unless the teacher opens the door for them.
Second, this is about K-12 classes not a top secret defense strategy meeting. Yes kids names and participation and attendance should be held close but all video teleconferencing -- yes Teams too -- can be tapped into. They also all have analog windows.
So what is the deal killer here? I don't see it.
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Second, this is about K-12 classes not a top secret defense strategy meeting. Yes kids names and participation and attendance should be held close but all video teleconferencing -- yes Teams too -- can be tapped into. They also all have analog windows.
So what is the deal killer here? I don't see it.
The "security" issue is not so much that the sessions can be "tapped". It's that some asshole might join a video conference including underaged students and then start sharing pornography, or shouting obscenities, or such. The same kind of mentality that likes to put violent images into YouTube videos targeted at little kids.
Re:What's the beef? (Score:5, Informative)
It's that some asshole might join a video conference including underaged students and then start sharing pornography, or shouting obscenities, or such
The very post you are responding to already explained why that is not the case with Zoom, especially with recently changed defaults.
Re:What's the beef? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What's the beef? (Score:4, Insightful)
people are making policy decisions based on what they've heard in the past few weeks.
There were already admin tools built in to deal with situations from the last few weeks.
"People" are making policy decisions based on paid FUD for the most part, jumping into a system with all the same caveats and locking them down into an MS platform, possibly having to have students give up more personal data to join (I assume it's more than the Zero you have to give Zoom to join).
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No no, the worst thing that can happen is that the kiddies' parents hear that their kiddies might be using something that possibly might have let some kiddies see some porn. Maybe. CNN said I think.
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> The "security" issue is not so much that the sessions can be "tapped". It's that some asshole might join a video conference including underaged students and then start sharing pornography, or shouting obscenities, or such. The same kind of mentality that likes to put violent images into YouTube videos targeted at little kids.
You mean like underage kids can physically walk into a school and share pornography on any regular pre-COVID nightmare day? The insanity is the way the law has failed to deal with
This is the beef. (Score:5, Informative)
The beef is that last year they installed a server on peoples Macs that let people turn their cam and mic on, that was left behind even if you uninstalled it. Then they were found to share data with Facebook, route call setup information through Chinese servers in some cases, allow stealing login tokens from Windows users, have scripts on Mac that potentially allow attackers to elevate to root, as well as again access cams and mics, from what I've read. And most of that came out in the span of about two weeks.
If you think this is just about not having meeting passwords enabled by default, you have missed 90% of the related security news.
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Doesn't matter. Zoom advertised itself as a way for businesses to do videoconferencing everywhere I saw it. So I don't see the need for it to have Facebook login support. Perhaps they had a consumer version if for some reason Facebook itself
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Then they were found to share data with Facebook
Zoom wasn't, a Facebook library they were using to support Facebook logins was.
I didn't shoot that guy, the gun did
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Ever seen Zoom start up on its own? I have.
Fortunately, my camera and microphone were unplugged. And during the Zoom install, when it complained about my not having pam_systemd, I installed a shim. So Zoom wasn't able to bypass the login and it just sat there, waiting for my password.
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I work K-12 and told 3 managers and the dept head I think it's a security concern. People were already using it and asking for support for it at that point putting student data at risk. We also already pay for Office 365, why not use Teams? (not that I have any special love for it nor Microsoft)
Just Google it yourself. FBI warning, Chinese engineered with at least 1 Chinese Datacenter, no end to end encryption (gee, coincidence?), stolen Linkedin credentials, "zoombombing" which is the only thing that th
Why are trhey using either beggars belief (Score:5, Interesting)
https://www.vedamo.com/
Beats them by mile. Shared whiteboards. Teacher controls. Specifically designed for classroom and remote learning.
My daughter's weekend language school has been using it for some of the lessons since Xmas and has switched to it completely after the lockdown.
In fact, even gamer solutions like discord is better than either Zoom or Teams. Why would anyone even consider using them beggars belief.
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Why would anyone even consider using them beggars belief.
Existing licenses. MS shops will switch to Teams. Google shops switch to Hangouts. Not introducing yet another unknown that has just recently bitten people and sticking to your existing vendors has huge sway.
Additionally this isn't rocket surgery. Teams is not ideal for teaching but it gets the jobs done. Hangouts is better for it out of the two big ones IMO.
here's your answer: 25-person limit (Score:2)
I checked the web site for Vedamo. The maximum number of users in a conference is 25.
My child has also been attending school remotely, and yeste
Integration (Score:2)
In addition to TFA's mention of FERPA, my district already uses microsoft services.
Teams for Education allows all kinds of things that are important for distance learning - built in (assignments, grades, chat, voice) without additional sites like Schoology. So it makes sense as a SSO platform when kids are also struggling with other matters. It even allows students who don't have internet but may have a phone to call in to meetings.
If this were Windows 10, I'd be the first person in line with a pitchfork, b
Only 4 people on screen in Microsoft Teams (Score:4, Informative)
Teams only allows 4 feeds on screen at a time, the last 4 people that spoke
Kids will be used to seeing all their friends on screen and will get annoyed with Zoom
It is easy to set up Zoom meeting to avoid the typical Zoom Raiding tactics but I suspect many non tech savvy teachers don't do that.
NYC is also allowing Google hangouts
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I wonder if Google will reconsider its plan to discontinue Hangouts after all of this. T
Why would they? They aren't getting rid of group messaging/video conferencing, they are only migrating it to another platform just like Skype for Business is being replaced with Teams.
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Last time I checked (Score:2, Insightful)
NYC schools does not EQUAL all US Schools. My kids are using Zoom a lot. They are also google Meets. There has been no discussion to stop using Zoom. Security? What schools are now passing national defense information back and forth? OMG!!! Hes giving out Avagadros Number!!! Better do something about that shit! Backup! I'm gonna spread Pascals Law all over the motha fuckin internet!
The kids have a student email account that gets them full access to office365, and they have Google Classroom, along with thing
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FERPA is a thing. Non-compliance is a problem. Schools want to stay compliant. Bye bye zoom.
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My prayer (Score:2)
Let's just hope this thing ends before we have to switch to Microsoft Teams. At my institution, we're being told to treat the semester differently. There will be a lot of grade inflation, with the hope that everything goes back to something like normal soon.
Schools: Worry about Slack before Zoom (Score:4, Interesting)
If you want Teams to replace something, you should use it to replace Slack - which seems to rub your nose in its non-FERPA-compliance [slack.com].
Teams also seems much better aligned to replace Slack than to replace Zoom.
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Who knew? (Score:2)
The kids are already using chromebooks in WA. (Score:2)
Google Meet is already baked in. I don't like the ecosystem we're in, but its already paid for, and integrates nicely with google classrooms. WTF is the problem?
Seriously, WA state, you need a new tech guy.
y tho? (Score:2)
Another Zoom article... (Score:3)
Microsoft Teams doesn't have end-to-end encryption either.
Millions of people new to videoconferencing are just now learning how to put passcodes on meetings.
This isn't "US Schools", this is NY public school chancellor per the article.
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No one cares about end-to-end encryption for the school system. That's important if you're handling classified sensitive information only.
My Church is using Zoom (Score:5, Funny)
My church is using Zoom for sunday school classes. We all kinda hope the Chinese Government is listening in. They need to hear the gospel.
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Teleconference even with "proper IT support" for 20+ people usually ends up in a clusterf*ck. Example - G20 teleconference on COVID19: https://www.fagain.co.uk/node/... [fagain.co.uk]
It is simply the wrong solution to the e-learning problem.