The Pope Suggests Considering a Universal Basic Wage (usnews.com) 268
U.S. News and World Report notes a big surprise in the Easter Sunday letter from the pope:
Pope Francis on Sunday advocated for a form of universal basic income that would "dignify the noble, essential tasks" carried out by street vendors, small farmers, construction workers and caregivers around the world...
In a letter written from Vatican City on Sunday, the head of the Catholic Church reflected on the "great anxiety and hardship" the world faces as it battles the coronavirus pandemic. Acknowledging the hardships being felt by the homeless, displaced migrants and economically disrupted workers around the world, the Pope pondered whether it "may be the time to consider a universal basic wage."
"It would ensure and concretely achieve the ideal, at once so human and so Christian, of no worker without rights," he said.... While expressing hope that "this time of danger will free us from...the idolatry of money," the Pope's letter acknowledged the significant economic strain millions of people are feeling around the world amid the pandemic.
The pope's remarks drew a response from Andrew Yang, who'd attempted a run for the U.S. presidency while advocating for a universal basic income. On Twitter, Yang called the Pope's remarks "game-changing."
In a letter written from Vatican City on Sunday, the head of the Catholic Church reflected on the "great anxiety and hardship" the world faces as it battles the coronavirus pandemic. Acknowledging the hardships being felt by the homeless, displaced migrants and economically disrupted workers around the world, the Pope pondered whether it "may be the time to consider a universal basic wage."
"It would ensure and concretely achieve the ideal, at once so human and so Christian, of no worker without rights," he said.... While expressing hope that "this time of danger will free us from...the idolatry of money," the Pope's letter acknowledged the significant economic strain millions of people are feeling around the world amid the pandemic.
The pope's remarks drew a response from Andrew Yang, who'd attempted a run for the U.S. presidency while advocating for a universal basic income. On Twitter, Yang called the Pope's remarks "game-changing."
The Pope? (Score:2, Informative)
Who the fuck cares? Wake up Millenials. Bernie is not your friend. You will have to earn something and do something with your life if you want to succeed. And yeah, Twitter and Youtube doesn't count. If you don't you will get old like the Bernie shitheads here. Middle class old white guys who never really failed or succeeded, and now are looking at having the Gubmint save them from their bad choices in life.
Catholoicism vs Protestantism (Score:2, Interesting)
Cahtoloicism always believed in giving more control to institutes, while Protestantism preferred private property. This is just a continuation of an ancient struggle.
Naturally, even though it's not popular to say in these times, both absolutes would lead a society to ruination (North Korea and Somalia, accordingly).
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while Protestantism preferred private property.
There have been so many Protestant communes, it's really hard to generalize like this. Frequently quoted, Acts 2:44
Re:Catholoicism vs Protestantism (Score:5, Insightful)
Catholicism was always about giving more control to Catholicism.
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Why something for nothing, how about a devil's bargain, pay someone for not having children. 7 Billion and it will keep rising, how about a no children payment, don't add to the problem and we will pay you, add to the problem and we won't but will provide support direct to the children not their fault, just an idea.
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Don't need to. There's a pattern that almost every country follows: Industrialisation brings a period of explosive population growth as the birth rate remains high and the death rate plummets, but this is followed by stability and even negative growth when the birth rate falls as well. Certain factors of a developed country strongly depress birth rate: High educational expectations, gender equality, long-term stability.
Red Herring vs Non Sequitur (Score:2)
UBI gives money to the masses who would not have it - the opposite of centralizing power.
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Cahtoloicism always believed in giving more control to institutes, while Protestantism preferred private property. This is just a continuation of an ancient struggle.
It's true that Protestantism emphasizes the eclectic connection directly between the believer and God rather than through the "chain of command" via the pope and the church, but that's about control of the faith. It had huge financial implications for the church, but it was hardly an opinion on private ownership. Remember the reformation was long before the industrial revolution and Karl Marx invented the concepts of socialism, most people were farmers working their own little plot of land or in service of
Re: Catholoicism vs Protestantism (Score:2)
And why fascism was developed In Italy and took off first in Italy.
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This is nothing more than a glib dismissal of non-centrists as defined by today's US political perspective. Making a linear scale of governments based on this single, dubiously useful factor in a sea of thousands doesn't make sense. It wouldn't even really make sense if one of those countries was largely Catholic, and the other was largely protestant.
And then ... (Score:5, Funny)
Everyone can use that to buy universal basic health insurance ... Wait, that can't be right.
You hit the nail on the head (Score:2)
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It's working pretty well downunder and in some of the Scandinavian countries, among other nations, like Germany.
Just saying...
You can cherry pick, but... people aren't being made bankrupt by being treated for diseases in welfare states, unlike in the USA. And that's an important thing to note, I believe - affordable health care that is affordable and works.
be nice if they contributed (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:be nice if they contributed (Score:4, Insightful)
Uh, tithing isn't a catholic thing.
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They can't afford it. The rich can, through VAT or GST. A tax they can't easily escape.
Pretty free with (Score:3)
Just my 2 cents
It was always workers money (Score:2)
The fact that billionaires are whining about people not working just proves that you are the one earning "their" money, not them.
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I'll take those 2 cents!
But but but.... (Score:2)
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This goes completely against the Christian Republicans.... I have a feeling this might not go down well with them.
Knowing them, they’ll probably start blaming the virus on him now.
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Most people already know this, and it is easy to look up if for those that are interested in it, but there are large groups of Republicans that are for it. Famous ones include Sarah Palin, who as written on it, to Milton Friedman who wrote multiple papers on how it could actually be implemented.
Now that you know better you can apologize to the people you tried to make a cheap joke about.
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Sara Palin is for it???? Damn, I need to revise my stance. I cannot be in the same group on an issue as this waste of oxygen.
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I wasn't aware Sarah Palin was in the White House. Big shock to me....
No, wait, wait, we aren't talking about Sarah Palin here. We are talking about the Republicans that are currently in the White House and that are trying to make new laws and legislation here.
Please, stay on topic, you'll show your ignorance less when you can focus on the subject and not random whataboutism's.
I always find it amusing... (Score:4)
When people who roundly mock formal religion snap to attention when the ob jest of their ridicule says something they agree with.
Ok, so now that you cherry-picked UBI out of a letter from the Pope, care to chime in on his, and by extension his church's, positions on sex outside of wedlock? Abortion? His belief of a creator, the truth of the bible, etc?
Probably not.
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Not on a 24-hours clock, it isn't!
Amused that you are amused (Score:5, Insightful)
It's called finding common ground, Sparky. I utterly despise Libertarian ideas on economics but would work with one in a hot minute on ending Prohibition, wars, domestic spying, etc. When the establishment and the oligarchs behind it are united against you, you can't be picky on who your allies are on said issue.
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I don't need common ground with the religion that sucked up to Hitler and mass murdered millions. What an despicable disgusting organization, the Roman Catholic Church can burn in hell.
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You pay the bills, you call the shots. Cui bono? (Score:2)
Are we really saying that what the poor people of the world really need is for them to become permanently dependent on someone else just in order to live? A lifetime of intentional serfdom, not just for them but for their descendants?
You cannot serve both God and Money.
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for them to become permanently dependent on someone else just in order to live?
Nearly everyone is permanently dependent on someone else in order to live.
Jeff Bezos is the world's most financially successful person. How long would he survive with no support from civilization, naked on the savannah, with just a stone-tipped spear?
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Do you expect a reply in number of years, months, days, hours, minutes or seconds?
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33 seconds lions, hyenas, cheetahs, leopards, black mambas or wild dogs.
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I live in a welfare state - but I am lucky to have a job.
There are a growing number of multiple generations here whose family have never had a job and likely never will, in part due to their attitude towards society (it owes them a living) and their attitudes to education, their work ethic (non-existent as their parents never worked) and their skill set (also non-existent apart from petty crime). A neighbour's kids fit that scenario.
I'm not sure what the solution is, but a meaningful UBI, public housing and
Does anybody care? (Score:2)
Better to get last UBI checks than last pennies. (Score:5, Insightful)
"[Luke 21:1] As he looked up, Jesus saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. [2] He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. [3] "I tell you the truth," he said, "this poor widow has put in more than all the others. [4] All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on."
You know what the Catholic church would appreciate even more than the poor widow's last two copper coins? The last $20 bill in her purse, which suddenly becomes an available option with UBI coming in every month.
Straight from the taxpayers into the temple treasury, via a simple parable and a bit of guilt and virtue-inspired generosity. Of course the church likes UBI.
Comment removed (Score:3)
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Maybe if the people who like "what is known in the US as "republican Jesus"" knew that, being middle eastern, he's coloured, they might change their opinion of him?
Because it's 100% certain that Jesus was not a blue eyed blonde caucasian, despite most of the images in a great majority of churches!
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Nobody within the mainstream right-wing in American cares what color skin people have. Those are the Democrats, always labeling people by their race and putting out anti-semitic and anti-Israel garbage.
Everyone knows Jesus was ancestrally Jewish. It's right there in the Bible. You're projecting your imagination of what American Christians think, not what they actually care about. Did you know the current Republican President has Jewish children and grand-children?
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No-one openly cares. The US has successfully gotten rid of open racism. What remains is veiled racism, hidden in coded phrases about how Mexico is sending murderers and rapists.
Now look at that (Score:2)
A guy not having worked a single day in his life talking about wages.
Then again, he also thinks we should give a fuck about his opinion on contraceptives...
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I don't give two shits about the Pope's opinion, but...
"In the sixth grade, Bergoglio attended Wilfrid BarÃn de los Santos Ãngeles, a school of the Salesians of Don Bosco, in Ramos MejÃa, Buenos Aires. He attended the technical secondary school Escuela Técnica Industrial N 27 HipÃlito Yrigoyen,[18] named after a past President of Argentina, and graduated with a Chemical Technician's Diploma[2][19][20] (not a master's degree in Chemistry, as some media outlets incorrectly
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Well, statistically, 4 out of 5 people enjoy mass rape, so...
I have a more pressing suggestion (Score:2, Insightful)
How about priests not molesting children? Can we get that?
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All kinds of people in positions of power molest children. But the Catholics have a whole system for not just covering such incidents up, but also shipping offenders off to new locations to do it again. That is certainly something the Pope could address... And should.
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FTFY:
"...But [organised religion] have a whole system for not just covering such incidents up, but also shipping offenders off to new locations to do it again..."
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You're right, gay marriage is now legal in a lot of countries!
Universal (Score:2, Insightful)
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Yes, you give it to everyone. Then you get it back from the rich in taxes. That way you keep the adminstrative costs down.
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Make it taxable income, perhaps with an opt out option and go back to the '50's tax brackets, adjusted for inflation.
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In Australia the (recently renamed) unemployment benefit is taxable income.
But the income is so low that you pay no tax if you are unlucky enough to be on it for an entire year. In fact, you can earn thousands of dollars while on it and still pay no tax.
However you'd still be below the poverty line even if getting several hours of work a week, tax free.
In good (?) news, the Australian government did substantially increase the unemployment benefit, to try to reduce the number of bankrupties, mortgage default
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Yes, it is similar here in Canada. What I worry about is after this is over, a lot of jobs may not come back and the country is bankrupting itself to pay people for not working. Times are going to be tough for quite a while, especially as there is the party that always wants to cut taxes.
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If someone wan't to live on just 1000 bucks and not work, then so be it.
It's likely that are already using the program this would replace.
Ok then (Score:3)
The church collects money and has income. All they have to do is start paying a basic income to Catholics. If nothing else their numbers might go up.
UBI (Score:2, Informative)
UBI only works if we have a highly automated production system. Right now, too many humans are needed to do work and build/maintain/transport stuff. If humans are no longer motivated or incentivized into working, civilization will collapse. And in the end weâ(TM)ll all have to become farmers/hunter gatherers.
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The number of humans needed to do those things is already dropping. And if the UBI is set up such that you only can get a cheap phone and a small TV (for example) then people will still work so that they can have an iPhone and a big TV.
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UBI would probably be barely enough to survive on so people would still be motivated to work. Who it would really help are the people we're finding that we're so dependent on, the store clerks, the delivery drivers, those taking care of our old people are some examples.
Besides, I don't think the majority of people would want to not work, maybe work less hours, which I wouldn't mind and would allow more people to work.
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so people would still be motivated to work
Sounds like UBI is a bail out for the big corporations. They don't want to pay reasonable wages. So if they can get someone else to kick in a few bucks, maybe their employees will quit bitching about low pay.
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"They don't want to pay reasonable wages"
They have no choice, there are such things as minimum wage laws.
Maybe such laws could be revisited and revised to ensure that a minimum wage is above the poverty line in your country?
Just a thought...
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In a way. The problem is supply and demand along with competition. There's a large supply of these workers and competition forces the lowest wages that the law allows or just a bit more. Raising minimum wage might help but there is also a response of less hours to cut down on benefit costs. There's also the viscous cycle of the poor having to shop at the cheapest stores who need to pay low wages to stay inexpensive.
I don't know an answer. Things like UBI sound good in principal but even if implemented, a ch
The UBI can be paid but.. (Score:2)
People that will pay for it will most likely want something in return, probably control over who gets the UBI or not, and specially, use it as arguments to make certain "doors" unavailable.
The ol "compete with disney and everyone you know lose their UBI".
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Pope Francis advocates (Score:2, Interesting)
Pope Francis on Sunday advocated for a form of universal basic income...
Good, then Pope Francis can pay for it then. Not like he doesn't control any amount of money or anything...
then it should be quite reasonable... (Score:2)
...as a first step to suggest that churches immediately start paying their full share of income and property taxes at maximum local rates, and hell, even earmark the money for social welfare spending only.
A second step might be to expropriate the vast wealth in the depths of the Vatican, to fund the first step in developing a UBI program.
Well, that's the nail in the coffin for UBI (Score:2)
I think wage competition would be better. (Score:4, Interesting)
Give everyone who does not have a job, $2,400 a month.
If they have a job, they get nothing.
While some people will choose to live on just $2,400, the vast majority will not.
The means any job would have to beat that pay.
This create a wage competition.
God fantasy (Score:2)
"Thou shalt not steal."
Actually steal, not it's kind of like stealing in my fantasy of how evil capitalists are.
God said to help your neighbor. Not to point a gun at your neighbor and order him to help your other neighbor.
Politicians do this for votes (Score:2)
Haven't we seen this before? (Score:4, Insightful)
Pretty sure something like this was tried all the way back in Acts 4-5. It didn't work too well given what happened to Ananias and Sapphira.
I think the verse "he who does not work shall not eat" came up around that time, too.
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Different time, different circumstance. Pre-industrialisation, there was never enough labour to meet demands. It took most of the productive capacity of a civilisation just to keep that civilisation fed.
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Well, Jesus was pretty heaving invested in the poor, downtrodden, and outcasts. Most definitely not a poster child for the capitalist system. Made it a distinct point to keep totally out of political issues. And the long hair and beard? Clearly a hippie.
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Well, Jesus was pretty heaving invested in the poor, downtrodden, and outcasts.
Not when helping them conflicted with His self-interest. Read John 12:8, Matthew 26:11, or Mark 14:7.
He apparently believed that helping the poor was good for virtue-signaling, but that charity would have no long term effect on poverty.
Re:Not surprising if you've been paying attention (Score:4, Insightful)
No, the question of "virtue signaling" was addressed by Matthew 6:2.
In your verses, Jesus is simply stating the fact that there will be many opportunities to assist the poor, but to have his immediate presence was for a limited time. He would be the top priority, since ultimately "benefit to the poor" is short term outside of God, and therefore, himself.
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Jesus was also came down pretty heavily in favor of voluntary charity, as opposed to governments taking from one person to give to another, or forcing them into involuntary agreements. Making someone else do something isn't "charity", nor love.
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Not sure what you mean, unless you think Jesus was against taxes, which he abstained from giving an opinion on.
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This suggestion in the article isn't an appeal for people to voluntarily give to others. That would be an example of charity, love, etc... and Jesus is on record as in favor of that.
The Pope is apparently confused, suggesting that some people instead forcibly take from one group of people to give to others. "Thou shalt not steal" remains one of the 10 commandments. Jesus never came out in favor of violating it. Something in there about coveting, also...
If the Pope believes that some people don't have as muc
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You seem to be stuck on an anti-government philosophy. You can theorize in a libertarian think tank all you want, but you can't say that Jesus was for or against your views with any certainty. Jesus kept out of it. Those taxes he said "render unto Caesar" would most certainly be considered "stealing" by most anti-tax zealots, but most normal people wouldn't consider taxes to be stealing (maybe they are sometimes a bad bargain, true).
Re:Not surprising if you've been paying attention (Score:4, Informative)
Jesus talked about the individual, what an individual should do and act (and think). The government, society, and so forth were left untouched. There were disciples who probably wanted to overthrow the Roman oppressors (Simon the Zealot) but Jesus never said a word for or against, and preached forgiveness towards even oppressors. So you can't really ask What Would Jesus Do about democracy or the economy or how to properly form a government. Those concepts are ephemeral and ultimately unimportant in the big picture he was preaching. It's about as nonsensical to ask Jesus about democracy as it would be to ask him about his views on the common core curriculum.
Later on though, the church certainly had ideas about government. Ie, the kings have divine right to rule, whether it was taught voluntarily or under strong pressure from the king's soldiers...
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This pope is definitely invested in social justice.
He is also a supporter of Peronism.
The Peronists are the only political party on earth that has ever converted a 1st world country into a 3rd world country.
So much for the Pope's economic wisdom.
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"The Peronists are the only political party on earth that has ever converted a 1st world country into a 3rd world country."
Uhhh, some beg to differ:
https://www.theguardian.com/ne... [theguardian.com]
"We are told by everyone from the United Nations to Donald Trump that the US is a ‘developed’ economy. The statistics suggest otherwise"
The article goes on to list many stats where developed, i.e. 1st world, countries are supposed to excel. The USA demonstrably fails at meeting or surpassing these stats.
My premise (an
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What is a social injustice, exactly? Is that like if your neighbor gets laid more often than you do because of the color of his skin, then you've been wronged and deserve compensation because it came at your expense?
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Already in progress....
In any case, I will judge the pope's sincerity when the Vatican bank accounts are in the red and they have sold the last Old Master painting they own. The pope and the other residents of Vatican city live in wealth and opulence that would have embarrassed their Roman Empire predecessors.
Otherwise, he's just another old rich guy trying to take my money and give it away.
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I'm with you on that. The Vatican's wealth is the largest in the entire world based on what is known. That's not even counting all their treasures that are not public knowledge.
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The one where we run massive social experiments with people's livelihoods?
Of course not. Around these parts, we run massive social experiments by borrowing money.
Rip Van Winkle? (Score:2)
I dunno if you just woke up from a 20 year nap, but US jobless figures are approaching 20 million if they haven't already. Are people supposed to materialize money for food, shelter and medical care out of sheer force of will, or something? UBI would allow people to maintain a decent standard of living and allow the economy to quickly go back to normal when a vaccine is deployed. Without it, look forward to an economy worse than the Great Depression while also dealing with a plague.
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I think you make a better point for not shutting down the entire country for the flu - as opposed to selective quarantine of the threatened populations, which is how we dealt with every other epidemic.
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Why to you think nobody would be going to work anymore? All credible scientific studies say differently.
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DId anyone really think the Pope would oppose giving money to the poor?
No, but most people didn't expect him to speak out and raise it as an issue either.
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This pope seems to be not cut from the same cloth as many previous popes.
For example, he doesn't live in the papal chambers, and does genuinely seem to be more humble than a great many others.
Which is why a LOT of cardinals dislike him.
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I will pay attention to him when he gives away *his* money to the poor- instead of continually begging for donations from even the destitute.
If you give someone $1000 UBI, they will be told that they owe the church $100 as a religious duty.
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Not necessarily, but to make it work, "you have to have some pretty big demons chained in your basement", so to speak.
Someone has to pay for it to not be just the "BRRR printing money" meme, and getting someone to pay for it will require giving things in return, potentially things that money can't normally get.
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Ratzinger was the previous Pope, this is Pope Francis, formerly Jorge Mario Bergoglio
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Effectively?
I think you mean LITERALLY.
https://www.history.com/news/1... [history.com]
Yeah, not the best reference but it's correct (at least in that the Vatican is an independent country, though it's not an absolute monarchy, it's an absolute theology by my understanding, there is no monarch nor any hereditary stuff going on (there days)).