Frontier Will Charge Up To $89 For Social Distancing On Flights (arstechnica.com) 124
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: No two airlines are handling the uncertain future in quite the same way. Frontier Airlines, though, is going all in on the industry's worst nickel-and-diming impulses and is happy to let you gain a few precious inches of space from your neighbor and their bodily fluids -- for an additional fee. Frontier touts the new charge as the "more room" pledge. "While we believe the best measure to keep everyone healthy is to require face coverings, for those who want an empty seat next to them for extra peace of mind or simply additional comfort, we are now offering 'More Room,'" Frontier CEO Barry Biffle said in a written statement.
The extra fee for a guaranteed empty middle seat will be between $39 and $89, depending on the route. It will be in effect starting this Friday and run at least through the end of August, if not later. Frontier is also requiring face coverings for all passengers in the gate area as well as aboard aircraft, and it will be implementing mandatory hand-washing and health screenings before boarding. Every other major U.S. airline is also mandating face coverings for passengers, but none of them is as yet charging passengers for trying to avoid being breathed on.
The extra fee for a guaranteed empty middle seat will be between $39 and $89, depending on the route. It will be in effect starting this Friday and run at least through the end of August, if not later. Frontier is also requiring face coverings for all passengers in the gate area as well as aboard aircraft, and it will be implementing mandatory hand-washing and health screenings before boarding. Every other major U.S. airline is also mandating face coverings for passengers, but none of them is as yet charging passengers for trying to avoid being breathed on.
Logically, that means ... (Score:3)
The extra fee for a guaranteed empty middle seat will be between $39 and $89, depending on the route.
A middle-seat ticket on Frontier should cost between $39 and $89.
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A middle-seat ticket on Frontier should cost between $39 and $89.
I think it's more like between $78 and $178. Because they'll pair up the people who paid the fee to be next to a middle seat.
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A middle-seat ticket on Frontier should cost between $39 and $89.
I think it's more like between $78 and $178. Because they'll pair up the people who paid the fee to be next to a middle seat.
I thought of that, but it sounds like double charging, unless they're going to charge a single passenger that double amount when there's no passenger on the other side of the empty middle seat (should that happen).
Anyway you look at it, it's a dick move.
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Not really... you're not buying any right to use the seat, you're paying for the seat being empty. Charging two people to have the seat beside them empty isn't the same as double charging for a seat since both passengers are getting what they paid for.
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not quite, there is also a difference in cost since you don't have to lift the weight of the middle passenger and luggage.
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Well... sort of. If you and your non-middle seatmate both pay it's $78-$188 for that middle seat.
Still doesn't really solve many problems.
Imagine if Frontier didn't suck tho...
E
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"A middle-seat ticket on Frontier should cost between $39 and $89 if you weight absolutely nothing, don't have any luggage and don't request anything to eat or drink".
FTFY.
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Giving consumers options demonstrates a requirement for government regulation in your mind? That's an interesting way to announce that you're a big government fascist...
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I thought big government regulation was socialist? Make up your mind!
Anyway, airlines are already heavily regulated and it works well for consumers. Look at Europe where we have strong rights to refunds and support when things go wrong. As we come out of the worst of this virus we need to be thinking about how aviation will have to change to remain viable but also fair for the consumer.
Generally speaking anything necessary to preserve your health should not be an optional extra cost.
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Assume a 2-seat/3-seat configuration:
- On a 100%-full flight, no passengers can social-distance.
- On an 60%-full flight, on average all passengers get social-distancing for free -- no matter who pays for the privilege
- On an 80%-full flight, if nobody pays, on average 40% of flying passengers social-distance for free (assuming people in the 3-seat row make rational adjustments). But if 37.5% of flying passengers (who'd occupy 30% of the seats normally) pay to distance, they use 50% seat capacity instead. Th
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Assume a 2-seat/3-seat configuration:
- On an 60%-full flight, on average all passengers get social-distancing for free -- no matter who pays for the privilege
On a 60% full flight you can get every other seat empty, but you still have adjacent rows occupied, so at a budget airline seat pitch of something like 33 inches, that is the distance from my head to the person in front of me. And at something like 21 inch lateral seat pitch, even with an empty seat or aisle, I am still not getting to the typical social distancing target of 72 inches away from people. To do that you would need at least every other seat and every other row empty, giving you a load factor o
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Yup - you're correct. "Social-distance" is a misnomer here -- the distance between rows is too small. I thought about it, but ignored it in the writeup to keep it simple. When passengers board, deplane, or go to the bathroom mid-flight, those guidelines are breached even further.
BTW, the link to the Journal of Global Health article on how salt-gargles and nasal rinses combat Coronavirus:
http://www.jogh.org/documents/... [jogh.org]
The mechanism by which it works:
https://www.nature.com/article... [nature.com]
(~~~Cells use salt to ma
um, what? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:um, what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Hell, I figured the best way to strike a balance, would be for the airlines to NOT sell the middle seat, basically cut the flight load by 1/3...and raise the prices on all tickets by 1/3.
They've got to pay for those empty seats somehow....
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Rather than paying to check your suitcase... could you pay the "middle seat" fee and then buckle your bag there?
Also, what if both people (window and aisle) pay the fee? Who gets to stash their stuff on the seat?
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I'd expect that's where they'll be seating you if you buy this.. .where they're charging both people for having a free middle seat which allows them to double dip on the fee and maximize their income from it.
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Rather than paying to check your suitcase... could you pay the "middle seat" fee and then buckle your bag there?
I can't imagine that would meet airline safety regulations. There's a reason why stuff goes in latched overhead compartments or stowed under the seats. Yes, it's technically possible to buckle down different sized luggage into a seat, but regulations probably don't allow for it.
Also, what if both people (window and aisle) pay the fee? Who gets to stash their stuff on the seat?
Well, that's going to be part of why this isn't a "middle seat fee", but a "more space fee". I'm sure seating assignments will simply pair up two people who pay the more-space-fee. And since it's more space, nobody puts objects t
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If they dropped one seat the prices for the others would go up by 50% not 33%
Example. 3 seats at 100 each = 300
2 seats recovering the 300 now cost 150 each
150 is 50% more than 100
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You just had to bring real mathematics and logic into the argument.
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If they dropped one seat the prices for the others would go up by 50% not 33%
Example. 3 seats at 100 each = 300
2 seats recovering the 300 now cost 150 each
150 is 50% more than 100
But you're assuming that the cost of the flight would be the same if 1/3 of the flight was empty. The airline saves on fuel, food, etc. That's not to say that the Airlines wouldn't charge the extra 50%, just that they would make the same profits at a lower percentage. The point is that the 50% number isn't entirely correct either....
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Because you get that for free on any airline right now: Flights have between 5-20 people on them. Everyone has their own row because barely anyone is flying.
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Re: um, what? (Score:2)
The emergency row seats can't recline because that would impede access to the emergency doors.
I agree, sounds awesome! (Score:2)
That's super cheap to get an extra seat next to you.
I agree this is awesome, and I wish you could do this all the time...
I think there are probably two reasons why it can be cheap:
1) Not many people are flying now so getting one more person in a plane is way better than nothing.
2) An empty seat weighs nothing, compared to a real person (even a child) with luggage - so I wonder if some of the cheapness comes from fuel savings?
3) (discarded) one less drink to serve compared to a real person flying.
If the rea
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Because that means the poor people are all going to be sharing it and get the super mutant powers.
This is kind of why it doesn't save us money to not give free healthcare to people who pick our vegetables.
They should add the fee to all the tickets and just leave make the gap standard. If it's the right thing to do, you don't have an "opt in if you've got ext
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Hell yeah! I'd gladly do this even when there's no scary virus to worry about.
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logged in to say the same thing.
this sounds like a great deal actually, I would have paid full price to have an empty seat next to me on some trips but the airlines wouldn't do it.
Now I can get the extra room I want for just US$89? Frontier just got on my list of airlines I'll consider flying on.
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I have a simpler solution (Score:1, Interesting)
Sucks, kid is graduating college and I was finally gonna have some freedom (money wise). But I've read how people die of COVID and it ain't worth it.
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I'm not flying until this pandemic crap is over. If that means I go 2 years without setting foot on a plane so be it.
Sucks, kid is graduating college and I was finally gonna have some freedom (money wise). But I've read how people die of COVID and it ain't worth it.
Road trips are fun too... If there wasn't a travel ban, I would be all over taking time off and driving to places that I haven't visited yet, especially with cheap gas prices...
Re: I have a simpler solution (Score:2)
Stay healthy, keep your distance.
Not a dime .... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Not a dime .... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not paying a dime extra, I've had the damn virus so I'm immune.
(a) There's no (or little) data yet on if infection confers immunity.
(b) If infection does confer immunity, there's no (or little) data yet on how long that immunity lasts.
Have fun playing COVID-19 roulette.
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(a) There's no (or little) data yet on if infection confers immunity.
It would be really weird if it didn't
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(a) There's no (or little) data yet on if infection confers immunity.
It would be really weird if it didn't
Apparent re-infection cases have been recorded. There are multiple theories. It could be a failure of the test. It could be that some people do not develop antibodies. It could also be that they get infected the second time with a different strain than the first time. There are also cases that test positive for a very long time. So, it may be that when a person recovers, the virus is not fully done and the disease may reoccur.
https://www.bbc.com/future/art... [bbc.com]
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(a) There's no (or little) data yet on if infection confers immunity.
(b) If infection does confer immunity, there's no (or little) data yet on how long that immunity lasts.
(a) There are 1 million already cured and still no signals of recurrence. It is not like recurrence is being ignored. It is being looked for, and it is not being found. So statistics says that some sort of immunity is actually granted.
(b) Sure, but for SARS and MERS coronaviruses it is known to last a few years, and next year we will have the vaccine.
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(a) There's no (or little) data yet on if infection confers immunity.
(b) If infection does confer immunity, there's no (or little) data yet on how long that immunity lasts.
That infection confers at least partial short-term immunity is beyond any shadow of a doubt. We know antibodies are present in recovered individuals, we know the virus has not mutated that rapidly, we have evidence that convalescent plasma is an effective treatment, and the once-infected population is more than large enough to have ample cases of reinfection otherwise. A reasonable starting guess would be that most people will have immunity on order of years to the strain they are exposed to. We might not w
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I imagine airline execs are praying we find some kind of quick and accurate test soon.
fuckin greedy merikins (Score:1)
Legs (Score:2)
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Your money or your life (Score:2, Insightful)
Remember, folks... Surviving this pandemic is a privilege for those with money. The richer you are, the less chance you have of dying.
That's why the fine folks who care primarily about the stock market aren't concerned about safety for the general population. They know they're safe, and don't care about anyone else.
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So much for your bullshit propaganda!
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Surpisingly, the Continent of Africa is doing quite well and They Are The Poorest Countries!
So much for your bullshit propaganda!
Yea, maybe.
This is a continent that still has regular Ebola outbreaks with fatality rates of 50 percent on the low side. Why put money and testing into something like Coronavirus with its piddly 2 percent fatality rate when they've got real things to worry about?
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Actually they have no idea how they're doing, because there aren't many tests available. Death rates are rising above normal, but they're not marked as COVID-19 deaths because they're not able to test most of them. Look at the Tests Per Million Population column.
https://www.worldometers.info/... [worldometers.info]
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Remember, folks... Surviving this pandemic is a privilege for those with money. The richer you are, the less chance you have of dying.
That's why the fine folks who care primarily about the stock market aren't concerned about safety for the general population. They know they're safe, and don't care about anyone else.
Hanging around an airport or airplane is up there with licking tables at a mall food court as far as exposure to disease goes.
A good way to limit exposure is drive your own damned self.
Followed by don't go anywhere.
Where in that spectrum do you figure people without money fit?
Someone flying twelve hours a week on business trips is going to get it. If your flying your family out for some cheap zen time at a battlefield park, you're rolling the dice as soon as you step onto the curb at the airport. If you'r
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Where in that spectrum do you figure people without money fit?
If you're relocating because that's where your new job is, you're probably flying.
If you're stranded across the country from a family member that needs help, you're flying.
If your car won't likely handle the trip, you're flying.
If you've been staying with family and are now required to return to work immediately, you're flying.
There are plenty of reasons people would travel and fly unwillingly, and it's not likely that someone with limited financial resources can arrange alternate accommodations. Having mor
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I think the ethical thing to do is to put everyone's safety first, without attaching price tags. Frontier already assigns seats. It would be trivial for them to apply this safety improvement to everyone, and I doubt their flights are full enough that it would cause a single overbooked flight. They've chosen to seek profit over saving lives.
MOPP4 (Score:2)
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I'd be careful with that, the suits have been known to set off the explosive testing machines.
And man, you're dedicated. I've worn that crap. It's only "comfortable" in the middle of a blizzard.
face coverings $29.99 at the gate! (Score:2)
face coverings $29.99 at the gate!
What is your life worth? (Score:1)
F*** logic (Score:5, Insightful)
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/thread
lol. explaining this to Frontier management and watching them try to defend this practice in the fact of, well, trivially obvious facts, would be fucking gold. too bad it'll never happen.
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"We were very careful not to explicitly say that this would be helpful or protective at all, and were offering our customers the feeling of safety because we know how important feeling safe is to them!" hahahaha, and then they'd be fined $50.
kill plebs.
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Aircraft replace all the air every 3 minutes or so. They don't recirculate. At least when they are at altitude cruising, not on the ground.
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https://www.who.int/ith/mode_o... [who.int]
"Most modern aircraft have recirculation systems, which recycle up to 50% of cabin air. The recirculated air is usually passed through HEPA (high-efficiency particulate air) filters, of the type used in hospital operating theatres and intensive care units, which trap dust particles, bacteria, fungi and viruses.
Transmission of infection may occur between passengers who are seated in the same area of an aircraft, usually as a result of the infected individual coughing or sneez
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How else were they going to monetize those empty seats?
The ten people who don't pay for it will be jammed together next to the toilet.
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You can put only two people on board and sit them at opposite ends but is not going to make any difference at all. Think, people.
You should take your own advice, better still don't think, just Google. There's plenty of studies which show the infectious range of people on planes, and no two people on opposite ends of an empty plane cannot infect each other.
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In specific conditions it might be a problem, like if everybody in the plane was singing or yelling.
The 2 main transmission methods are caugh/sneeze droplets, and touching shit.... the virus does not fly in the air.
https://youtu.be/gAk7aX5hksU?t... [youtu.be]
They dealt with it good, so I will take this guys word for it.
As for the space... I think thi
Muh freedum (Score:1)
How long do I have to wait before we get cell phone video of a social distancing protester being forcibly dragged off a plane for refusing? Preferably losing some teeth and consciousness in the process.
Airlines are doing it wrong. (Score:2)
Likewise, they need to move coach onto the twin aisles aircrafts (76, 77,78, 74, etc), remove an entire column, and a couple of rows, so as to distance
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Supersonic is not going to happen.
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Multiple companies differ with you. This is one. [boomsupersonic.com]
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They have been differing with me for decades. And guess what - it didn't happen. Matter of fact the only place to see a passenger supersonic airplane is a museum. I suggest Sinsheim, they have both the Concorde and the Tu-144.
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Supersonic is not going to happen.
Why not? There is already airline interest [boomsupersonic.com].
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First of all, right now essentially all of the airlines are shedding large parts of their fleets and defer their orders. It will take years for them to recover. Second, supersonic aircraft have two inherent problems - they are loud and inefficient.
There have been several supersonic projects over the years, by SAI, Tupolev, Gulfstream, Aerion, Sukhoi and others I don't remember. Nothing ever came out of it.
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The Concorde flew the rich for 27 years, but eventually there were enough spare aircraft on the market that prices for charters dropped and now they fly alone instead of fast.
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2) NONE of those companies you listed had active projects. They had TALKS about projects, nothing more.
3) The airlines ARE shedding. And it will be difficult to bring back Business/FC from the small private RJs, UNLESS they have an edge. That would be supersonics that can fly over oceans AND land. In 5-10 years, SX will have rockets that will fly over the oceans in less than an hour. Guarenteed that FC/Business will want the speed, esp
Re: Airlines are doing it wrong. (Score:2)
There are one or 2 all-business class airlines. They are of course expensive as hell.
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Yup. That is why I mentioned all COACH, but comfortable. There was 1 flying the atlantic and making good profits. Flew with high 90s load factor and no gripes.
There are some all coach configurations as well. They're widebodies and used primarily on the Hajj routes.
Interview (Score:2)
The local news station here in Denver did an interview with the CEO of frontier night before last. It's posted online here...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Just listening to this guy dance around questions makes me want to punch small animals. I live in Denver and everybody I know here hates them. I once interviewed with them for a security position, the person I interviewed with didn't even work there, he was a contractor on his way out. That should tell you everything you need to know about working for
No problem. I love to chat. (Score:2)
As long as they keep the legally mandated *physical* distancing, I'm fine.
How many folks want to fly Frontier? (Score:2)
Who wants a middle seat anyway? (Score:2)
Increase the pitch! (Score:2)
The spacing between the seat rows is called the pitch. That spacing has been getting smaller for years. It's so bad on many flights that I can no longer bend down and loosen my shoelaces after takeoff, as has been widely recommended to improve leg circulation in-flight.
Empty middle seats was the norm in the 80s, as was enough pitch to not have your knees up to your chin. /get off my lawn
Decisions, decision... (Score:2)
Ok, 40 bucks is a really good deal to be able to actually put your arm somewhere, but on the other hand, while your arm may be happy, the rest of you is still sitting on a Frontier plane...
Sounds reasonable to me (Score:2)
It's basically paying $44.50 for half a seat. That pretty cheap. You'd likely get that half a seat anyway now, but this is a guarantee.
Lots of changes coming... (Score:2)
I hear some talk that airlines might just eliminate the middle seat altogether. Well, if that happens there goes 1/3 of their revenue (give or take) per flight. This can only end with higher ticket prices.
Back in the day, before Southwest $39 flights, air travel was something for the well to do. People actually dressed up to go on a plane. It was an event. Then came cheap flights and people boarding planes in flip flops and ripped t shirts. The airplane became nothing more than a subway in the sky. Cheap, f
How bout I buy the empty seat, and then (Score:2)
Time for a new business model (Score:2)
The airlines have been involved in a "race to the bottom" for a long time. Flying is often cheaper than taking the bus, which makes no sense at all. People fly long distances for the stupidest reasons, or no reason at all, because...why not?
Maybe COVID will cause some changes for the good. Airlines should no longer be allowed to squash people in like cattle. Don't charge extra for leaving the middle seat empty - just remove the damned thing. Guarantee a suitable amount of personal space, provide truly adequ
A la carte infection? (Score:2)
OK $89 for social distancing, that's nice. But how much for the virus?
paying for the transported weight (Score:2)
Confused! (Score:2)
I got confused with that Frontier name. Heheh.
A Cheaper And More Effective Solution (Score:2)
Buy a gas mask for $50.00.
It’s also reusable. You don’t have to pay $50.00 every flight.
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You say that like any airline isn't complete shit these days... if you're not chartering a flight or going private, they're all just sky dumpsters but they usually force you to pay full price to buy out the seat beside you.
Re: Sold! (Score:1)
Does banning screaming babies and little demons like this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=... [youtube.com] come with the package?
Then yeah, SOLD!
Re: Here's my "fuck off, Frontier" pledge (Score:2)
Re: Here's my "fuck off, Frontier" pledge (Score:2)
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Not the weeks of hospitalization, severe heart, lung, and kidney damage, and the massive $30,000-$40,000 medical bills (even with insurance).
*laughs in socialist european*
I agree, the problem is not death (for me). I don't fear dying from COVID19 as I am relatively young and healthy, and I don't even think I would end up in a hospital, but I could very well carry the disease and infect others who might die or end up in the hospital, so I do my best to stop the spread of the virus.
Re: Here's my "fuck off, Frontier" pledge (Score:2)
I would be sorry for the incremental deaths your inadequate system caused, but let's
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The reasons airlines have made tighter and tighter seats is because passengers constantly select the cheapest fares regardless of space or quality.
More and more travelers are actually choosing premium economy seats instead of the cheapest economy seats. This trend has been happening for many years now.
Delta says more travelers are paying up for its premium seats [cnbc.com]
Why airlines are rushing to add premium economy seats [ft.com]
First introduced by Taiwanese EVA Air and Britain’s Virgin Atlantic in the early 1990s, premium economy has soared in popularity over the past decade on long international flights with 36 airlines now offering the cabin.
The demand for premium economy has increased partly in response to the growing divergence between an economy class that has become increasingly cramped and a business class that has become much more luxurious, taking on much of the opulent features of first class with offerings of fully flat beds to fine wines.
The rise of premium economy class seating [aviationbusinessnews.com]
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