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Transportation

Germany Will Require All Petrol Stations To Provide Electric Car Charging (reuters.com) 173

Posted by msmash from the moving-forward dept.
Speaking of Germany it will oblige all petrol stations to offer electric car charging to help remove refueling concerns and boost consumer demand for the vehicles as part of its 130 billion euro ($146 billion) economic recovery plan. From a report: The move could provide a significant boost to electric vehicle demand along with the broader stimulus plan which included taxes to penalize ownership of large polluting combustion-engined sports utility vehicles and a 6,000 euro subsidy towards the cost of an electric vehicle. Germany's announcement follows a French plan to boost electric car sales announced last week by President Macron.
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Germany Will Require All Petrol Stations To Provide Electric Car Charging More

Germany Will Require All Petrol Stations To Provide Electric Car Charging

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  • Makes more sense to require parking lots (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Thursday June 04, 2020 @04:49PM (#60146182)

    To me I don't think it makes a ton of sense to require traditional gas stations to have charging ports, as a lot of them don't have the space for cars to hand around 15-30 min (or longer) at a time. They could maybe support one or two chargers?

    You could have nearly the same effect by requiring a good spread of office buildings to offer charging spots in parking lots where longer duration parking would not impact anyone, with maybe a limit of one hour max parking so the people that worked there with electric cars wouldn't just leave a car there all day.

    I do agree it's a good goal to have a wide spread of chargers so that electric car owners in a bind would be able to find somewhere to go...

    • While I can see the usefulness of an electric vehicle at their current mileage limitations....as a 2nd car for just commuting to work, etc....I still can't see it being the primary travel vehicle, especially if you can only own one.

      I mean, this does no good to people that want to go off-roading....or out somewhere to drop a boat in the lake/gulf, etc....

      I guess they could put electric chargers out at the marinas and public boat launches to charge when you are out possibly...

      But I think with hurricane sea

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by hey! ( 33014 )

        I mean, this does no good to people that want to go off-roading....or out somewhere to drop a boat in the lake/gulf, etc....

        This is a big part of the way cars have been marketed; they appeal to things we think we'd like to imagine ourselves doing but probably won't. The time to worry about your boat towing needs is after you've bought a boat, and even then most of the twelve million boats could feasibly be towed with an e-vehicle -- particularly if there's an extensive network of chargers.

        As for needing some kind of e-gas can, people who own electric vehicles don't seem to worry much about this, maybe because their car is alway

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dgatwood ( 11270 )

        While I can see the usefulness of an electric vehicle at their current mileage limitations....as a 2nd car for just commuting to work, etc....I still can't see it being the primary travel vehicle, especially if you can only own one.

        That's probably because you've never owned a long-range EV.

        I mean, this does no good to people that want to go off-roading....or out somewhere to drop a boat in the lake/gulf, etc....

        Teslas are used as tow vehicles for boats all the time. The Model X has 4,960 pounds towing capacity (500 pounds maximum tongue weight). It does, of course, reduce the effective range by a factor of two or so, so you have to charge every 100–150 miles.

        I guess they could put electric chargers out at the marinas and public boat launches to charge when you are out possibly...

        A row of 30-amp outlets would be more practical. You don't need fast charging if you're going to be out on the water all day.

        But I think with hurricane season off to an already brisk start, I'd not likely trust the limited range of the electric vehicle and limited, time consuming recharging times if needing to get the hell out of dodge, possibly in traffic for many miles and with AC full blast (after all these storms affect places with high heat and humidity at its worst during summer)....

        About the only places where you would have to drive more than 300 m

        • Then again, at the current rate of sea level rise, those areas are likely to be underwater by 2050, so maybe it isn't even worth the effort to convert Florida to EVs at all.

          Ten bucks says in 2050 they won't be underwater and won't be driving EVs

        • Comment removed based on user account deletion

        • Much further? The newer Teslas have ~320 miles of range on a charge. A 2007 RAV4 averages about 300 miles of range.

          My 2011 diesel car has 600 miles of range.. and I still want a Tesla Model X. Because I seldom have a need to drive 600 miles straight without a stop.

          We had a Tesla Model X rental for a longer trip now. It was parked in parking garages with charger, so every morning we had a 90% full battery. Only rarely we stopped at a high speed charger (tesle supercharger) for 15 minutes to strech our legs and recharge to reach our next destination. One of the hotels even had a tesla supercharger 100 meters away, so when

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Corbets ( 169101 )

            I was surprised as well, the first time we rented an X and took a road trip from Switzerland to Denmark (about a 12 hour drive in a normal car, 13-14 in the X). It was a bit slower, but actually much more relaxing.

            We ended up buying an X when we permanently relocated to Denmark (ouch, car tax here). Couldn’t be happier. And as others have said, being plugged in at home all the time means I never, ever have to get fuel unless I’m on a road trip, but the navigation software takes care of all the t

      • Plug-in hybrid. All electric for your commute, gas powered for when you need to drive to visit the relatives.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by rtb61 ( 674572 )

          Electric vehicles will make for much, much cleaner cities. Which will see the lower classes forced out to satellite towns and the city and inner burbs gentrified, driving electric vehicles in air you can breathe, property values will sky rocket and slums will come down. Fossil fuellers are fucked.

          You simply can not change a petrol service station to a vehicle charging point as it has insufficient power supply to handle the additional load and peak charge times. The power demand could be quite high dependen

          • We have 8 chargers in front of our building at work, and they're almost always in use. The company next door recently decided they needed some chargers too and added about 12 and it did not take too long to do. I don't think the cost is that high unless you want tons of chargers, and gas stations are generally too small for that. 3-phase is common to commercial buildings, I'm not sure about gas stations.

      • That is an outdated view of electric cars.
        Their range is now 200-300 miles per charge. Which means you can get 3-4 hours of driving.

        The thing with electric cars needs a change in behavior.

      • In my opinion you're verging quite close to the "strawman" scenario. "But, what happens if there's a hurricane coming, AND it's a really hot day, AND I was out on the lake all day with my boat, AND ...

        Genuinely not having a go at you, because I do the same thing from time to time.

        So I'd rather look at some real-world doomsday scenarios. In this scenario during the Australian bushfires [thedriven.io] (and probably true in many huge disasters), the power went out, and there was no fuel available from the gas stations. Th

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by hey! ( 33014 )

      I think it depends on space. A very large parking lot may well have plenty of space for a half dozen e-vehicles to charge, but a small petrol station might not have room for even a single one.

      The other thing that would help is to have some kind of reservation system where you could select a spot in the direction you're traveling in and drive in knowing how long you will have to wait when you get there. The more you optimize your network of charging stations, the fewer stations you'll need.

    • captive audience. There's so much stuff you can sell them. Drinks, food, toys for the kids. You name it.
    • While there are a lot of gas stations that couldn't easily be retrofitted to accommodate a large number of electric vehicles, this isn't something that needs to be an all or nothing approach. Most gas stations have a few places for vehicles to park that aren't filling gas (some people just need to make a stop to use a restroom, grab a coffee, etc.) and could change some of those spaces over to a charging station.

      As the number of electric vehicles increases, more space can be swapped over, including some

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Hentes ( 2461350 )

      This could make ultracapacitor based cars possible. The problem is that it doesn't matter if an electric car has more range than a combustion one because a vehicle that can be quickly refueled at any petrol station has practically infinite range. But an electric vehicle that can be recharged in minutes could even the playing field, even if it technically has a shorter range than battery powered ones.

      • The volume per watt hour is too much. By too much. Way too much.

        They're only useful for increasing burst current, the total power is less than batteries once you measure the vehicle size and weight constraints. You run out of volume for capacitors before you get too heavy from batteries.

    • To me I don't think it makes a ton of sense to require traditional gas stations to have charging ports, as a lot of them don't have the space for cars to hand around 15-30 min (or longer) at a time. They could maybe support one or two chargers?

      You could have nearly the same effect by requiring a good spread of office buildings to offer charging spots in parking lots where longer duration parking would not impact anyone, with maybe a limit of one hour max parking so the people that worked there with electric cars wouldn't just leave a car there all day.

      I do agree it's a good goal to have a wide spread of chargers so that electric car owners in a bind would be able to find somewhere to go...

      It depends on what kind of gas station you are talking about. The smaller gas stations in German villages towns and cities answer that description and it would probably be better to just install tons of changing points on parking lots and in parking houses and provide incentives to shopping centres and supermarkets and other such places to install them in their parking lots. However if you are talking about the Autobahn 'gas stations' in Germany those tend to be huge with up to half a dozen fast food joints

      • Another important aspect of this effort is that you will no longer need unanamous consent to set up a charging point in communal residences which means that one single activist in a big apartment building or a home owners association can no longer veto the installation of charging points for everybody else (Germans can be awful assholes like that). Between easier installation of charging points in residential areas and ensuring you can reach any point in the country by Autobahn without being marooned due to a lack of charging points this should go far to alleviate the aforementioned 'range anxiety' problem and boost electric car sales.

        But what about the deadly radiation these charging points create? Invisible radiation right under your bedroom! Do the Germans really all want to die from Covid-19?

    • It's going to be fun watching three rich e-car drivers fight over who gets to use the two supercharging stations available at a location. I have never met a Tesla or BMW driver that was a patient enough person to wait 30 minutes.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      What we need are solutions for people to charge at home when they don't have a driveway, and lots of AC chargers.

      The rapid DC chargers are more useful in trunk roads and at certain destinations like airports. IKEA installed some in the UK but they would have done much better installing a load of AC chargers.

    • Today you may have to wait around 15-30 minutes to get a decent charge. 5 years from now it may take only a fraction of that time. They can always upgrade the charging stations.

      • Today you may have to wait around 15-30 minutes to get a decent charge. 5 years from now it may take only a fraction of that time. They can always upgrade the charging stations.

        How would that work? I'm pretty sure the laws of physics, and the laws of economics, will get in the way.

        • Yeah, sure, because it was once considered impossible to build machines that fly, or talk wirelessly over long distances, or construct computers. Nope, everything that can be developed has been developed, it's all over.
          Please. Even as we speak they develop better battery cell technology. For all we know in 5 years we'll have electric car batteries that can be charged in a matter of minutes.

          • Have you considered the level of power involved? What kind of voltage and current would be needed? And therefore the size of the cable to carry that power? Do the math. Size out the cables. Consider the connectors needed. Think of the heat produced. This is not trivial. I did the math once and I'm thinking a lot of people have not.

            • We humans have a way of coming up with novel solutions to seemingly insurrmountable problems.
              Oh and by the way I've been workiing in electronics for a long, long time now, and yes, I understand the total power required. I still think we'll find some solution, even if it's something like flow batteries, where you just exchange electrolyte solution, discharged for charged. Or who knows. All I know for sure is that we can't keep burning chemical fuels forever. Electric cars are a reality, they're not going aw

              • We humans have a way of coming up with novel solutions to seemingly insurrmountable problems.

                Um, sure, but the laws of physics still apply. Novel solutions can't surmount that.

                Oh and by the way I've been workiing in electronics for a long, long time now, and yes, I understand the total power required. I still think we'll find some solution, even if it's something like flow batteries, where you just exchange electrolyte solution, discharged for charged. Or who knows. All I know for sure is that we can't keep burning chemical fuels forever.

                How is a flow battery any different than a "chemical burner"? Sounds to me like a distinction without a difference. If the electric car is not "recharged" by electrical wires then does it still fit the definition of an "electric vehicle"? That's like calling a diesel train an "electric vehicle" because the diesel engine turns an electric generator which powers the traction motors.

                If we are going to the point of using flow

                • "Electric cars will simply not replace the "chemical burners" any time soon." - correct, only detractors who have unrealistic expectations think that it will happen overnight as a way to try and trash the fact EVs will become the main vehicle type.
    • Put the minimum you have to in, use out-of-the-way spots on your property, and charge way above market rates to use it. Or put it where your real pumps are and charge even more. Problem solved.

    • It would make more sense to have charging stations at restaurants, shopping malls, and theaters.

      Being that most day to day travel. You can charge from home. Charging stations are mostly needed for those who are traveling distances. Current ranges around 200 - 300 miles. You can normally drive as long until your next meal.

      A Gas station isn’t going to be the best use of the charging time. But a restaurant where you can have a sit down lunch while you charge up is generally more convenient method. Wh

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      The standard German arrangement is one parking spot per charging port. What, you thought they would put charging ports on the gas-pumps?

      Also, gas-stations usually have the power connections needed already in place and they have other benefits as initial large-scale charging infrastructure. In a second step, charging ports will no doubt become much more widespread. It is a chicken-and-egg type of problem, so it is good to see they are finally getting this off the ground.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by q_e_t ( 5104099 )
      Two chargers are better than none and doesn't preclude them also being at office locations. But being in an office location doesn't help much if you are not commuting by car. For me there's no point trying to commute all the way to work by car due to heavy traffic and an almost complete lack of parking at the office.
    • Shell and BP are already installing chargers in their stations, they've realised they've got to be "current". its only one or two fast chargers and not cheap.

  • Electic vehicle charger (Score:3)

    by cygnusvis ( 6168614 ) on Thursday June 04, 2020 @04:55PM (#60146218)
    People still wont sit for 30 minutes to charge an electric vehicle at a gas station. the bandwidth of of a fueling station for gas vehicles is about 12 per hour per pump, at 16 pumps, thats 192 people per hour. For EV charging, lets say 30 minutes per customer and one required charge point. That 2 an hour. This is not profitable and people will not wait an hour to charge. The fact is, EVs are only for people which charging points at home (rich or middle class home owners). Let say a statin has 16 charging points, like pumps. thats 32 per hour, much lower than gas vehicles.
    • The point is to let people charge when they are far away from home.

    • Park the car at the gas station, then walk next door to the store and go shopping, then leave when done. If it's only 15 minutes and you're not charge, well it's better than nothing. Gas station is not the most ideal location I will agree. It's not useless either, but it would have been more practical to have some other solution legislated.

    • The fact is, EVs are only for people which charging points at home (rich or middle class home owners).

      Which is why I don't see how EVs can take off any time soon in Germany. We have one of the lowest home ownership rates in Europe. People mostly have to park their cars in the street where they can't charge it.

      Unless you have your own garage you're screwed. Either you're stuck with a fossil fuel engine that gets more and more expensive due to rising taxes or you have to use commercial charging stations that are a huge time waster and charge a hefty premium for electricity. Typical for Germany though, the poo

    • You're more right than wrong. Especially if I'm in an EV, I don't want to be breathing petrol fumes. But I do think that many people would be willing to sit in their car and play with their phone (and/or a massive central display) for some significant portion of half an hour in order to achieve some journey that they couldn't make any other way. The car is a sufficiently "nice place to be" and is comfortable enough to where you could have a short walk, purchase a beverage, and hang out in your climate-contr

  • I would (Score:3)

    by cygnusvis ( 6168614 ) on Thursday June 04, 2020 @05:01PM (#60146242)
    I would buy a tesla model s if i had a place to charge it (i rent because my 70k a per year is not enough to afford a home in my area). a gas station charging port that takes 30min to get 10% is not a long term solution. EV will not be mainstream untill the problem of requiring a home is solved.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gmack ( 197796 )

      Where I live, there is an expanding network of street chargers. It's a bit awkward since most EV have their charge port on the driver's side, but overall it works.

    • a gas station charging port that takes 30min to get 10% is not a long term solution.

      No you don't have a Tesla Model 3 because you live in 2010 and think you only get 10% charge after 30min at a gas station charging port.

  • Reasonable, depending on the details (Score:4, Interesting)

    by magzteel ( 5013587 ) on Thursday June 04, 2020 @05:04PM (#60146256)

    It seems like a reasonable plan, depending on the details.

    Small stations should be exempted.

    Stations should be able to charge enough to make the service profitable. Like a charge for the energy and a charge for the connection duration. A fast charging vehicle will be done quicker than a slow charging one. A duration fee would also discourage drivers from wandering off while their car is being charged. The meter keeps running.

    Anything else?

    • It seems like a reasonable plan, depending on the details.

      Small stations should be exempted.

      That detail is critical that is missing. Without it the legislation is stupid. The problem is fundamentally one of user education. There are no practical concerns with range and charge. The overwhelming majority of electric vehicles never need to see a charging station, just like the overwhelming majority of petrol vehicles wouldn't need a petrol station if you filled the car up at home every morning.

      Then there's the proliferation of existing charging stations in dense areas. If you're a highway rest statio

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      The current pricing system is kWh based but sometimes they charge more for the ultra chargers (350kW). It only really works where there are several chargers.

      Penalising slower charging cars isn't a good idea, it just discourages people from buying affordable EVs.

      • The current pricing system is kWh based but sometimes they charge more for the ultra chargers (350kW). It only really works where there are several chargers.

        Penalising slower charging cars isn't a good idea, it just discourages people from buying affordable EVs.

        It's not about penalizing slower charging cars. It's about coming up with a pricing structure that makes sense for the station owner. If he can only charge one car at a time, a single car occupying the spot for 3 hours affects his bottom line. If he can't charge for the connection time the station owner is the one being penalized.
        One simple way the station owner can do it is to just call his refueling and charging spots "parking spaces" and charge a per-minute parking fee, first 5 minutes free. Then he

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          In spots where capacity is an issue they limit the charging sessions to say 45 or 30 minutes rather than charge more for slower cars. The idea is you should move on after your session and use the next rapid charger along your route.

    • Truck stops are more in line with the service needed here. They already have cardlocks for security and are set up for people to camp out. Many even have restaurants and facilities better suited to people who will be sticking around a while than a typical convenience store attached to a gas station. Who wants to spend half an hour at the corner gas?

  • Scan a credit card and put it on a timer. Charge a healthy markup.
    What's the downside? Other than this is a way to fund an insider that will make/install the chargers.

    • It is already a business. There are multiple companies now that will install and manage the payments for you. A gas station could choose to use on of those companies, partner with one of those companies for a better deal, or choose to implement their own installation and payment scheme more compatible with their current pump authorization. Lots of options available for those with the capital.

  • Right Idea, wrong locations (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TEG24601 ( 1850816 ) on Thursday June 04, 2020 @05:33PM (#60146332) Homepage
    The gas/fuel station is not where you need chargers. You need them at every restaurant, grocery store, department store, community center, and pub. There isn't anything to do at most gas stations, but there is plenty to do at all of the other locations, so much so that you can charge your vehicle while actually doing other things, making more efficient use of your time.

    • Contrary to gas users, electric users would not use fuel stations as a primary way of charging their vehicle. The goal here is just to make sure you can drive anywhere with your electric car and not get in trouble with no energy and no option.

      Using fuel stations has the advantage of already having maps that would tell you where the next gas station is, for example if you're on the highway and see you're going to run out of battery. Now of course, it'll be tempting for gas stations to have a single charger

      • Using fuel stations has the advantage of already having maps that would tell you where the next gas station is, for example if you're on the highway and see you're going to run out of battery.

        If only someone could make maps more dynamic!

    • Arguably the correct thing to do is to require them based on number of parking spaces, and percent utilization (both estimated initially, and actual eventually.) Extending this to the logical conclusion, cities should also install municipal chargers, based on the number of street parking spaces, especially metered ones.

  • That's a British (and French?) thing. In Germany it's "benzin".
  • The current electric car comeback has been here for 12 years now since Tesla and Nissan started making modern electric cars and there are still massive problems We've had failures of electric cars before and with lower oil prices people have decided electric cars aren't worth the hassle. They would rather deal with a warmer planet than wait half an hour for only a few dozen miles range. Either get electric cars to work properly or accept fossil fuels are here to stay.

  • Dont like this idea. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by 140Mandak262Jamuna ( 970587 ) on Thursday June 04, 2020 @06:18PM (#60146522) Journal
    Getting apartment dwellers, street parkers etc a L2 charger ( 20 to 30 miles per hour ) would be a lot more useful than requiring all gas stations to support L3 charging.

    In a gas car you run the tank to empty and then do a full refill, because there is no other place to buy the miles other the gas station and you want to minimize the trips to the gas station. In an EV 90% of the miles can be bought from an outlet where you park overnight. We top up every night. 12000 miles a year averages to 33 miles a night. A L2 charger where you park overnight is the best solution for 90% of the miles being driven once EVs reach about 200 miles range.

    For long distance, about 1200 miles per vehicle per year, you need L3 chargers mid way between large population centers. Small towns and shopping malls would invest in L3 chargers on their own to snare EV drivers who have to loiter around for an hour.

    This idea seems to be something pushed by fossil fuel industry. First push this law through and the EV supporters think it will promote EVs, Then the gas station owners line up, with hat in hand, for govt "help" to "comply with the law" and siphon off 50,000 $ per fast charger from funds that would have been better spent in promoting L2 overnight charging infrastructure.

    Dig deep, I am sure you will find finger prints of the big oil in there.

    • This idea seems to be something pushed by fossil fuel industry.

      Part of me thinks your aluminum foil hat is on too tight. Part of me thinks there's some truth to what you posted. If the government can force filling stations to put in EV chargers, and subsidize their installation, then what of a new filling station? Will they get the subsidy too? This could make putting in a new EV only station more expensive than a mixed EV and gasoline station. Would existing EV only stations see an incentive from this to install gasoline pumps? Perhaps so.

      Putting EV chargers in

  • I think one big problem with this is a person sitting in a charging car in a gas station will be in close proximity to the exhaust fumes of all the traffic coming in to buy gas. With social distancing being promoted, I could imagine an ev (mode) only drive-in restaurant that provides big touchscreen tablets might go over well. An ev only drive-in could have indoor parking and tables for those who don't want to clean their car after eating.
  • This is a good move, but it will increase electricity demand. What will be the source? I hope they planned for that, otherwise it will mean burning coal.

    • This is a good move, but it will increase electricity demand. What will be the source? I hope they planned for that, otherwise it will mean burning coal.

      Germany's plan to shutter all their nuclear power plants, and not build any new ones, shows that they do not have a coherent plan. I'm sure that they have a plan, it's just not one that adds up logically.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by gweihir ( 88907 )

        Bullshit. You really think the _Germans_ are going to fail at what is basically an engineering problem?

        • Bullshit. You really think the _Germans_ are going to fail at what is basically an engineering problem?

          This is not an engineering problem. This is a political problem. If the engineers in Germany were freed of bad government policy then they'd solve the problem of CO2 emissions.

          What is the engineering problem here? Nuclear power safety? First, nuclear power is very safe already. Second, we can trust the Germans to engineer nuclear reactors that are even safer than we've seen in the past.

          Is this a problem of radioactive waste? This is again a problem of policy and I can trust the Germans to engineer a s

  • There are just under 200,000 EVs in Germany. [wikipedia.org] 200K out of 47 million vehicles. [statista.com]

    Seems like there should be a better way of encouraging EV adoption than forcing gas stations to provide chargers for 0.4% of vehicles.

  • In the most aggressive claim of charging today, it would be 20 minutes to get ~300 miles of range. Generally speaking, gas stations are not designed for someone to be occupied for 20 minutes. Also note that the faster the charge, the worse the battery degradation, so that 'convenience' of 20 minutes will be very costly in terms of the battery degrading sooner.

    The places to charge would be places you actually would spend some extended time at. Like restaurants, hotels, shopping centers/malls. Gas stations ar

  • The idea itself is good, as long as electricity is produced in a clean way. In Germany, they seem to power off their nuclear plants and use non clean (CO2 wise) sources instead.
    In 2019, a study by the IFO in Munich found that electric vehicles in Germany emit 11 percent to 28 percent more carbon dioxide than their diesel counterparts.

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