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Transportation Software

Honda Recalls 608,000 Vehicles For Faulty Software (theverge.com) 77

Posted by BeauHD from the problem-causing dept.
Honda is recalling 608,000 vans and SUVs because of faulty software that can, among other things, cause the backup camera to fail and the driver display to malfunction or reboot. The recalls will begin on September 23rd. The Verge reports: Certain 2018-2020 Odysseys, 2019-2020 Passports, and 2019-2021 Pilots were outfitted with "[i]ncorrect instrument panel control module software" that can cause the display to not show critical information like speed, engine oil pressure, and gear selector position until the car is turned off and on again. The displays can also randomly reboot, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). The malfunctioning software can also prevent the backup camera feed from showing up. Honda will notify owners, but they'll have to get the software reprogrammed by a dealer. No easy over-the-air software fix here.

Another recall involves 500,000 of those same vehicles -- the 2019-2021 Pilots and the 2019-2020 Passports again, but only 2019-2020 Odysseys. These vehicles also have a problem with their "[i]ncorrect central network software programming" that can cause "several errors to occur that can delay or prevent the rearview camera image from displaying." The issue can also mess with the in-car audio. Owners of these cars will have the option of either downloading an over-the-air fix or visiting a dealer. Honda also announced two other recalls on Tuesday for some of these vehicles. Some 2019-2020 Odysseys were outfitted with faulty backup cameras that have developed distorted images over time, while 2018-2020 Odysseys may have a problem with the sliding door latching.
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Honda Recalls 608,000 Vehicles For Faulty Software More

Honda Recalls 608,000 Vehicles For Faulty Software

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  • Why dealer only?? I don't want self driving cars to be that why unless it's 5 years free for any owner.

    • Why dealer only?? I don't want self driving cars to be that why unless it's 5 years free for any owner.

      Recalls are always free. It's pretty common too nowadays, as almost any vehicle has some sort of recall or another, usually for minor things.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by msauve ( 701917 )
        "Recalls are always free."

        Only if your time isn't worth anything.
    • I bet their engineers said, "It would be great if we could do remote software update." The project manager "What is the risks!!!!" On time delivery of the project as specified is all that matters to my bonus, all features are killed that are not from above me!

      No regrets, he will have got his bonus.

      • Re:software reprogrammed by a dealer?? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by sjames ( 1099 ) on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @10:48PM (#60367847) Homepage Journal

        On the other hand, OTA updates means your cr is trackable 24/7 and may be vulnerable to remote hacking.

        • On the other hand, OTA updates means your cr is trackable 24/7 and may be vulnerable to remote hacking.

          Most new cars are already trackable 24/7. With an app on my phone I can tell where my car is at any time (as long as it's within cell service anyway). Not sure how I feel about this but it is handy sometimes...

      • The project manager "What is the risks!!!!"

        All our base are belong to them.

      • No, it's not about PM's bonus.

        The "instrument panel control module software" is classified as safety critical, since not seeing the speed or gear selection could in theory cause an accident. That's why it goes through a lengthier, more thorough development and certification process than, for example, the infotainment system (just look up ISO 26262 ASIL-B). It's also a system that went into 2018 model year cars - that means it was designed perhaps about 2012-2013. Remote software updates were simply not avai

    • Recalls are usually at manufacturer's expense. The dealer can be trusted to properly address a recall, private shops and individuals not so much, especially when flashing the firmware is involved.

      Don't quite know why a car recall is on Slashdot except to balance out the recent Tesla article for the fanboys.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by msauve ( 701917 )
        "The dealer can be trusted..."

        +1 Funny.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by sjames ( 1099 )

        Especially these days, gearheads are geeks too. Also, many here actually have to deal with issues of software that might need a fix in the field. It can help to see how others succeed or fail at that.

      • Recalls are usually at manufacturer's expense. The dealer can be trusted to properly address a recall

        Eh. Maybe. T1N Sprinters had an emissions recall that had to be done in order to pass emissions testing, which dealt with the EGR and the PCM. But 2004-2005 vehicles often had to have the cluster replaced at the same time because they (Mercedes) botched the fix. The cluster would remain on, and drain the battery. Mercedes literally ran out of clusters, eventually. But the real problem was with Dodge dealers, who also sold them. Many of them literally don't have the service tools necessary to do the update,

    • Re:software reprogrammed by a dealer?? (Score:4)

      by sabbede ( 2678435 ) on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:44AM (#60368711)
      Not all of the updates have to be done by the dealer, so I'm thinking there's either a technical or security limitation on which updates can be pushed and which have to be manually applied. Probably security, but it could simply be that there's a tricky bit of firmware that needs a little extra love to guarantee a successful install. They may even be wiping everything and applying a fresh image, which I could see being a risky proposition over the air. I'd certainly prefer it be done by someone with their hands on the hardware, rather than in my garage when I try to start the car. If something went wrong, getting my car to the dealer would then be a bit tricky.

    • It's a technical limitation. The instrument cluster - the computer that manages the speedometer area - is not able to do over the air updates (OTA). On the other hand, the infotainment unit - the computer that manages the central console as well as a lot of network communications and the central firewall - is able to do OTA updates, this is why the fixes related to the audio system can be done remotely.

      By the way, Honda does not move fast breaking things. These software bugs have been patched months ago and

    • It's common to need special software to do these updates, especially for euro vehicles. AFAIK it's extremely uncommon to be able to update anything but infotainment yourself.

  • Honda is an engine company, not a software company (Score:3)

    by boudie2 ( 1134233 ) on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @09:26PM (#60367615)
    Honda is the only company I know of that has made 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,10 and 12 cylinder engines. That is how they made their name. The last few years there hasn't been much to impress.

    • Believe me they are one Billion Time better with their software than Toyota. I have a 2020 Prius Prime, it's like their 20 softwares update since I get it, and everything that have a softwares on it is a piÃce of crap...

      • Re: Honda is an engine company, not a software com (Score:4, Insightful)

        by boudie2 ( 1134233 ) on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @09:51PM (#60367693)
        There's something to be said for the old points and condenser ignition system. As long as you have a spare condenser and set of points you could fix it on the side of the road with a screwdriver.
        • Simple electronic ignition is damn reliable, the problem is all the complexity, cruft, and points of failure that are added to pass emission regulations.

          • Yep. Get one of the better late-but-still-pre-OBD-II models and you will love it unto death. The two cars I most regret selling on are a 1993 Impreza and a 1989 240SX Fastback. Both had similar/related Hitachi ECUs, sequential fuel injection, a single cat and O2 sensor, were dead-nuts simple and reliable, and got great mileage for their day (30 MPG freeway for the 240SX, 28 for the Impreza.) Of course, today that's piss-poor mileage, which illustrates how much further we've come with all that complexity. Mo

        • How often have you witnessed electronic fuel injection failing? I'm not a fan of fancy tech bullshit but I'll never go back to carburetors and points. Smog pumps, 8 liter engines barely making 200 horsepower.

          • I'm a big fan of electronic fuel injection. And you're right that failures are rare. Electric fuel pumps are still trouble prone though. But when there is a problem you need a skilled tech with the proper equipment and that can be expensive. Just having nostalgia for a simpler time.

        • There's something to be said for the old points and condenser ignition system. As long as you have a spare condenser and set of points you could fix it on the side of the road with a screwdriver.

          The problem is the high likelihood of having to fix it on the side of the road. I've replaced points before. What I should have replaced them with was an electronic module which sits in the distributor and replaces the points, but it wasn't my vehicle.

          • Many years ago I was a bit of a gearhead. Owned a 1969 Pontiac GTO Judge. Knew people who put electronic modules in their distributors then when that failed in a few months put the points back in. Some modules are better than others. Good to have a spare.
        • you're a moron.

    • Re:Honda is an engine company, not a software comp (Score:4, Funny)

      by msauve ( 701917 ) on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @10:09PM (#60367753)
      "Honda is the only company I know of that has made 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,10 and 12 cylinder engines."

      But, 7 of 9 is much more desirable.
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • > The last few years there hasn't been much to impress.

      I bought a 2012 Pilot in 2018 because it was the last one where the stereo didn't have "root" on the vehicle bus. Hondas are supposed to "fix themselves" and this runs contrary.

      From what I can tell, car companies only figured out last year that their computer networks need firewalls and that maybe Ethernet is good enough and better secured than CAN. Probably we'll see those cars in 2022-2023, which means for me I need to make the Pilot last until 2

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      I don't know about the models sold in the US but in Japan and Europe they are one of the top car companies for design.

      There are lots of practical features like doors that open extra wide (nearly perpendicular to the car body) and very low door sills that don't catch your feet as you get in and out. When I get in a new Honda I feel right at home straight away. Everything is within reach, well laid out, comfortable and practical. They have flat folding rear seats too, and I mean really flat folding not 20 deg

      • There are lots of practical features like doors that open extra wide (nearly perpendicular to the car body) and very low door sills that don't catch your feet as you get in and out.

        Cribbed from the Mercedes W126 (designed in 1978). It also inspired the Lexus LS (the entire vehicle.)

        Honda is indeed known best for their engines. They are just super super reliable. Small engines, car engines, race engines, whatever. Some of the cars have been quite good as well, but there's lots of other good cars out there.

        Things like styling are a matter of taste

        And their current styling is best described as "Transformers-inspired". They have weird pointy bits sticking out all over the place. They look like they accidentally drove through a t

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          I like the angular look they have. It does look like something out of an anime but in a good way.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Ogive17 ( 691899 )
          That's not 10 years on everything. It's really not that much different from everyone else. I think most do 10 year or 100k miles, whichever comes first.

          • Most are more like 5 or 50k, although they are gradually catching up with Korea.

            I just want another GC5 Impreza. 2750 lb with AWD and a non-interference engine. I think that's one of the best cheap cars that's ever been made.

    • Explain Asimo. Certainly that takes some software engineering.

  • My next car (Score:4, Insightful)

    by denisbergeron ( 197036 ) <[DenisBergeron] [at] [yahoo.com]> on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @09:32PM (#60367635)

    Will be a stickshift with a carburator.

    • No it won't because it won't meet emissions regulations.

      • Old car don't need to.

        • Old car don't need to.

          Oh god why would you buy an old car? Do you like discomfort? Elevated change of a fatal accident? The joy of potentially not making it to your destination without the help of the Autoclub?

          • You can get a W126 Mercedes and have no computers but still have comfort and safety. Made from 1981 to 1991, they were Mercedes' first vehicle made of 100% high strength steel, they have crumple zones, US models have 5 mph bumpers, and they even offered a driver's side airbag. Later models were offered with ABS, standard airbag, and pyro pretensioners. If you get one which has been garaged, it will even still be nice inside. It even has climate control. You can choose between three or four mechanical diesel

            • Older volvos are also an option, if safety is a concern; they've long been an innovator/early adopter of safety technologies.

              • So just imagine what newer Volvos could do.

                • The few that I've been in that were made on this side of the millennium have been very nice. Haven't been in anything made in the last 5 years, but they look pretty decent (in terms of specifications and my own subjective opinions on cars). Some people are really hung up on the "no automation at any cost" bit, however.

            • but still have comfort and safety

              Comfort and safety are relative. No you W126 Mercedes does not compare to a modern car in safety. Ooooh crumple zones and airbags! Man you're living in the 80s, or early 90s at best.
              What you're describing is not safety, it's a bare minimum which would get you a 1 star safety rating at the most by modern standards and would be illegal to sell in many countries without.

              • No you W126 Mercedes does not compare to a modern car in safety. Ooooh crumple zones and airbags! Man you're living in the 80s, or early 90s at best.

                What do you think modern cars use for crash safety? They just have more of both of those things. But they're also built to be cheap, where the W126 wasn't. It was the last overbuilt Mercedes. It is made out of a lot of high-quality metal. As such, it has done well in informal crash testing.

    • Enjoy your timing lights and dwell gauges.

  • Remote update (Score:3)

    by hcs_$reboot ( 1536101 ) on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @10:01PM (#60367721)
    With a remote update, "over the air", that would have been easier, isn't it? There are security issues involved. But Tesla have been doing over-the-air updates for years... Why not Honda??

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by _xeno_ ( 155264 )

      Because they don't want to? I dunno, but I've had to deal with software updates for Hondas before, and they take forever, at least according to the dealer. The last time I had to get a software update to fix a vehicle issue (relatively minor, it would just cause it to incorrectly throw a code that would be cleared after four vehicle starts), it took them something like four hours to install it. I'm not sure why, but apparently the update process is slow. (If the dealer can be trusted, but apparently the pro

      • they take forever

        So we are talking about (in)competence ; that answers the question.

      • Re:Remote update (Score:4, Insightful)

        by tlhIngan ( 30335 ) <slashdot&worf,net> on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @02:45AM (#60368239)

        (If the dealer can be trusted, but apparently the process seriously involved letting the Honda update process run on the car for four hours.)

        If it's a repair under warranty or recall, you can trust it.

        Dealers are only paid between 50-75% their normal rate for warranty work paid for by the company, which is why getting warranty work done is like pulling teeth - dealers just don't want to do it.

        So if a software update takes 4 hours, the dealership bills out the 4 hours and only gets paid for 2-3 hours by Honda. If dealers knew of a faster way, they would do it - still billing Honda for 4 hours even if the update took 1. So yes, there is very powerful incentive for dealerships to find faster ways.

        At least these days most cars are updated through the OBDII port so even if it takes 4 hours, it really is you put the laptop on the seat, plug it to the car and send the update over. Given the 4 hours, I suspect for Honda they can't update individual modules but must update the firmware in all modules

        And no, the old days were not better. Modern electronic computer control allows for "twist and go" in practically any weather conditions. Doesn't matter if it's a hot day and the engine is still warm, you twist and it starts up. In the old days, that is a recipe for vapor lock and extremely difficult to start vehicles on a hot summer day especially after the engine stopped. Or perhaps the car failed to start when it got cold, or rainy or any other weather.

        All the complexity makes the car much easier to use - no worries about flooding the engine or anything - you twist the key, it starts. If it didn't start, something is seriously wrong - from a bad battery (can't supply cranking power and keep the computer and other electrical loads running) to poor connections to running on gas that was mostly water.

        Of course, for those wanting back to the simple life, an electric motor is extremely simple and the drive electronics can vary in complexity from brain dead simple to highly sophisticated compared to the dozens of sensors and parameters that a computer for an ICE engine needs to crunch through.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          That's likely it. They want to update all modules so that all firmware versions are in sync and the system is in a known, fully tested state. Their update process is probably very conservative as well, both to avoid costly bricking and to ensure that firmware is written correctly and verified afterwards.

          OTA updates are a mixed bad. They are convenient but also encourage manufacturers to release beta quality products. Tesla gets praise for doing updates but they need them because a lot of the software is sti

        • which is why getting warranty work done is like pulling teeth - dealers just don't want to do it.

          Funny, I had to take my Hyundai for a recall notice and the dealer took care of it in less than 30 minutes. It involved a coating on the underside. They took my appointment first thing in the morning as well.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Gimric ( 110667 )

      Then it's only a matter of time before defective software is automatically installed by remote update. Not even the airline industry or aerospace engineers have been able to avoid errors in software, no it would be naive to think automotive engineers will fare any better.

      • What difference does it make between Honda installing defective software in their premises, or Honda installing defective software remotely? As least it will be easier to fix it with (another) remote update....

  • This reminds me of the class action against Ford for their MyFord touch in-car entertainment system misbehaving.

    It is based on Windows CE for Automotive, later renamed Windows Auto.

    Mentioned on slashdot four years ago.

    https://yro.slashdot.org/story... [slashdot.org]

    People who bought an affected Ford vehicle in seven US states, did not take it to the dealer for repair, and submitted a claim by the deadline last year may receive forty five dollars sometime this year.

    The attorneys have asked for up to $16 million in fees, no

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by ledow ( 319597 )

      I literally have one of those cars, owned since new - "Powered by Microsoft Windows", it says.

      I will describe every problem I've ever had with the software:

      - Once, when my SD card went faulty, the panel crashed while I was driving. The only way I knew about this was the aircon went off (the box controls entertainment, aircon, satnav and phone) and my MP3 started to stutter.

      The car carried on, unperturbed. The MyFord screen then cut the music and went into a reboot loop a couple of times and then gave up.

  • Systems that display critical information should be properly tested - this obviously wasn't. No doubt they gave the ECU and other low level system programming jobs to proper engineers and left the fluffy infotainment coding to the 2nd raters or even outsourced it. Honda should be sued as a warning to other manufacturers not to cut corners with car systems.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by djbckr ( 673156 )

      No doubt they gave the ECU and other low level system programming jobs to proper engineers

      You have WAY too much faith in the automotive industry.

    • Honda, like most automakers, does not build most of its software and hardware in house. They have a complex supply chain and a large network of Tier 1 and Tier 2 suppliers and contractors. So yes you can say everything is outsourced. In case of a mishap, they hold the suppliers accountable. Of course, each supplier also buys professional liability insurance that covers this kind of things.

      That does not mean their suppliers are 2nd rate coders. The automakers do quite a strict selection and they supervise cl

  • You know this isn't getting better, right? It's getting worse

  • ... to grandma's Honda '73 Civic with the CVCC engine.

  • You have to wonder why they didn't just do a remote update, probably because they can't do it just yet.

    One day they'll update the software while you are driving your car and because it was so urgent that they had to do it while you were driving it.

    Non-urgent updates will regularly show you a message, asking you to stop your car on the side of the road and wait for the update to complete.

    Then comes the day where your car drives itself back to the dealer, because it was literally recalled to drive itself back

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ledow ( 319597 )

      Because not every car is connected, it's probably not safe to do while the vehicle is in motion, people put their car in a garage, and people don't want always-on connections to their car.

      The latter is why I specifically bought a car that has no connection to the Internet, for example. It's been back for two recalls - both for actual, physical problems - and while there they updated the software as an incidental "freebie" if you like (I never asked for it, and I could have just said no).

      The first time it t

  • I had the same problem with our Subaru a couple of years ago, and also a recall.

    Subaru and Honda do not make the electronics. In the case of Subaru, it was Harmon-Kardon, who also probably just subcontracted it. You don't have to do stuff in house to be sure it's done incompetently; there are plenty of specialized vendors out there willing to supply you with crap for a good price.

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