Trump Administration Forces Facebook and Google To Drop Hong Kong Cable (arstechnica.com) 56
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: Google and Facebook have withdrawn plans to build an undersea cable between the United States and Hong Kong after the Trump administration raised national security concerns about the proposal. On Thursday, the companies submitted a revised plan that bypasses Hong Kong but includes links to Taiwan and the Philippines that were part of the original proposal. One of the original project's partners, Hong Kong company Pacific Light Data Communication, has been dropped.
Federal law requires a license from the Federal Communications Commission to build an undersea cable connecting the United States with a foreign country. When Google and Facebook submitted their application for an undersea cable connecting the US to Hong Kong, Taiwan, and the Philippines, a committee of federal agencies led by the Justice Department recommended against approving the connection to Hong Kong, citing the "current national security environment." The Trump administration cited "the [People's Republic of China] government's sustained efforts to acquire the sensitive personal data of millions of U.S. persons" as a reason to deny the application. The proposed cable's "high capacity and low latency would encourage U.S. communications traffic crossing the Pacific to detour through Hong Kong before reaching intended destinations in other parts of the Asia Pacific region," the government argued.
Federal law requires a license from the Federal Communications Commission to build an undersea cable connecting the United States with a foreign country. When Google and Facebook submitted their application for an undersea cable connecting the US to Hong Kong, Taiwan, and the Philippines, a committee of federal agencies led by the Justice Department recommended against approving the connection to Hong Kong, citing the "current national security environment." The Trump administration cited "the [People's Republic of China] government's sustained efforts to acquire the sensitive personal data of millions of U.S. persons" as a reason to deny the application. The proposed cable's "high capacity and low latency would encourage U.S. communications traffic crossing the Pacific to detour through Hong Kong before reaching intended destinations in other parts of the Asia Pacific region," the government argued.
Re: (Score:2)
For fuck's sake, are you telling me you actually didn't get that he was being sarcastic ?
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
For fuck's sake, are you telling me you actually didn't get that he was being sarcastic ?
It's not his fault. Modern-day Republicans have dropped to a level of stupid that made his sarcasm hard to double-check against. Don't forget that this is the same group of people who wanted to reopen the economy before we were ready, THEN made a political issue out of wearing the masks and ended up causing a re-shutdown, all the while making a bunch of noise that 5G and Bill Gates caused all this while people they care about are dying. (For brevity's sake I left out a bunch of stupid, like 'the border wa
Re: (Score:1)
It's not his fault. Modern-day *Politicians have dropped to a level of stupid that made his sarcasm hard to double-check against."- T,FTFY
Re: (Score:2)
Terminating at a large populated Coastal City. That seems like a good place to terminate an undersea cable.
Not all decisions are political. Sometimes things like Geography and Demographics are bigger factors than Political Squabbles at the time.
Tesla is currently building a new huge factory in Texas. They were looking at other areas such as Oklahoma but they weren't looking at the east or west coast. Because they wanted a central location to help make shipping more uniform across the country. Some peopl
Re: (Score:3)
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day (Score:5, Insightful)
Given China's terrifying progress towards implementing a complete surveillance state, with a lot of help from corporate America, it must be said, I think this is one security measure the Trump administration got right.
It's one thing to understand China is actively working to acquire all the private data it can on every human being in the developed world, it's another thing entirely to actively assist their efforts.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't have an answer for that. I have an ugly suspicion that's a technological war of attrition ultimately favouring the side willing to commit the most resources to getting its own way. I think we both know which side that is.
Re: (Score:3)
While I'm initially inclined to agree with you, I'm also wondering if we need the opposite; more cables in. Lots more. Make implementing China's infamous firewall a logistical nightmare. Work to increase communication ability as much as possible. Though I'm not sure if that would help or not.
IF this is your goal, then you need to provide a satellite based ISP that China cannot directly control, preferably in low earth orbit, that provides thousands of individual downlinks not subject to the one big firewall at each fiber egress link and dump cheap downlink equipment packages into the Hong Kong market.
Adding a couple of fiber links isn't some huge technical problem for China. The egress points will be well known and easily controlled. However, if you create a ad-hoc set of connections nation
Re: (Score:2)
provide a satellite based ISP that China cannot directly control, preferably in low earth orbit
Then pack the transceivers as a non-exorcisable component in every piece of consumer electronics available. Instant, un-blockable connections for everyone.
Could serve to disrupt censorship around the world.
I like this idea.
Re: (Score:2)
OR...
It's one thing to understand Facebook and Google are actively working to acquire all the private data they can on every human being in the developed world,
Is there any real difference between China and the Google/Facebook hegemony?
Re:Even a stopped clock is right twice a day (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, I think there is. The social and political tools to control Facebook and Google actually exist in many western countries. They have been used with some success in the EU, and the slow rise of a movement in the US to rein in corporate America seems destined for success in the next decade or so.
In China, no such tools exist, nor is there any reason to suggest they will in the foreseeable future.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, I think there is. The social and political tools to control Facebook and Google actually exist in many western countries. They have been used with some success in the EU, and the slow rise of a movement in the US to rein in corporate America seems destined for success in the next decade or so.
In China, no such tools exist, nor is there any reason to suggest they will in the foreseeable future.
I understand what you are trying to say. However, the governmental tools to control companies are much stronger in China compared to the rest of the world. The completely missing Chinese component is any check or control on the government.
Re: (Score:2)
Google and Facebook don't have a physical enforcement arm. Yet. The moment that they can have me detained, arrested, beaten, or thrown into a labor camp because I've violated one of their policies . . .well, do let me know.
Re: (Score:2)
I can sue over that though. Especially if it's false information. That would be libelous.
Re: (Score:3)
How will not having this cable make any difference to security or China's surveillance measures?
If anything it's likely to have the opposite effect. Some Chinese company will step in and lay a cable instead. The demand for bandwidth is not going away.
Also do you have any evidence that China is trying to construct a database of everyone on the planet? The only time I've seen anyone try that it was the NSA, bugging entire countries and the like. China only seems to be concerned with its own citizens and some
Re: (Score:2)
If anything it's likely to have the opposite effect. Some Chinese company will step in and lay a cable instead.
I'd expect they need US government approval for that, which I assume would not be forthcoming under the same rationale. Of course, Chinese companies could likely get approval to lay a cable to Canada or Mexico or to some other location that can provide access to the US via another hop.
Re: (Score:2)
Why would they need US government approval to lay a cable between Hong Kong and Taiwan/the Philippines?
If you look at your globe map you will see that Hong Kong is the end of the cable, so the summary is misleading when it says "bypass".
Re: (Score:2)
Mainly this will prevent American businesses from selling modern services in China. It hurts streaming companies and gaming companies. Even so, China is already a pretty limited market because of China's own policies, overall very little changes.
Re: (Score:2)
How will not having this cable make any difference to security or China's surveillance measures?
The original plan involved the cable landing in Hong Kong and spreading out to local areas from there, ensuring all traffic from outside Asia flowed through Hong Kong. It would have been trivially easy for the CCP to monitor all traffic as a result, including that not going to/from China.
Re: (Score:2)
So why not just change the plan to have Hong Kong the end of the cable? Makes sense geographically.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe. Honestly, it seems a bit pointless to me. We all already know that nations like the US, Russia and China can easily tap underwater cables. Tapping one that runs right by them should be easy enough. So it realistically probably doesn't make much difference if it actually runs through China physically or not. It seems like the appropriate measure is to encrypt communications travelling across the cable. Honestly, all IP communications should be encrypted end to end, all the time already. One of the mai
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
The important thing is that the plan has been revised to include Taiwan and the Philippines. Xi isn't stupid. If he can get intelligence assets on the ground in those places, well, it'll be more-challenging but still . . .
At least on the surface, we're making it known to the rest of the Pacific that we want to be connected with them, and we really do. Especially Taiwan.
Re: (Score:2)
I think this is one security measure the Trump administration got right.
If only he didn't need to be right. I mean while the rest of the world is critical of China and is offering what little support they can to Hong Kong our orange monkey just throws up his hands and says "well they are China now, boo to them" and signs an executive order removing Hong Kong's special status as formerly recognised by the USA.
Oh but Huawei doing a banking transaction "ARREST THEM! Extradite them to the USA. Fire up the international diplomatic incident machine. We're going to trade-war!!!!!!"
Fuc
and when Taiwan is not free any more will they get (Score:2)
and when Taiwan is not free any more will they get dropped or will we need an draft to keep them free?
Re: (Score:2)
Good question. But China takes the long view. I suspect that by the time they decide to "acquire" Taiwan, the whole data situation will have changed beyond recognition.
Re:and when Taiwan is not free any more will they (Score:5, Insightful)
That may not play out well for them in this case. Yes, they're looking at the long game, but part of that long game has resulted in angering much of the rest of the world. While I don't think any universal embargoes are happening anytime soon, the major powers are becoming less willing to work with them. Even Russia has used off-and-on suspensions of technical support for engines used by China when it suspects that China is trying to work out problems with indigenous (and unlicensed) copies. China can get the copies flying, but their lifespans are much shorter because the metallurgy isn't up to Russian specifications. Russia has also been skeptical about selling other components to China, fearing that they will use them not in defense but to validate home-built versions.
The US and EU are likewise skeptical of China. They can't afford to just shut off the flow--there's too much investment there that companies can't easily walk away from. However, there's work underway to entice manufacturers to move production either back home or to countries like India and Vietnam that have better (not great) human rights records and less flouting of international accords. As contracts come up for renewal, incentives could make it worthwhile.
China's biggest problem right now is that it has no friends. It has, at best, business partners from whom it looks to steal (if they have better tech) or exploit (if they have resources) with no attempts at forging real alliances based on common interests. It's picking a fight with India thinking that Modi or a successor will eventually back down (apparently Kashmir isn't a big enough clue on that), but if that escalates into actual warfare, India will have a lot of friends (it spent decades being friendly with both the US and Soviet Union and continued that path after the Cold War) and China will have none. Even--and maybe especially--if it wins a war, it's going to find itself very lonely as sanctions go up, business moves out, and the West essentially buys its way into key contracts for resources. China could be left in economic shambles.
Even without a war, it's very possible that a decade from now, China's economic status will have slipped as it becomes both economically and politically desirable to move manufacturing out. By the time they decide to invade Taiwan, they may face a world far less willing to let it happen and willing to inflict economic damages completely out of proportion to the value of regaining the island, which could be shattered by the conflict and take many years to rebuild under normal circumstances, let alone under economic embargo.
Re: (Score:2)
Thanks for an excellent, thought-provoking analysis. Just don't forget, my friend, that although China is loved by few, it has many clients, especially in Africa. And it has one of the largest ready-made markets in the world, powered by a rising, merchandise-hungry middle class.
To be honest, I don't think China will ever invade Taiwan. They'll just keep squeezing until Taiwan asks to "reunite", probably through a suitably friendly government "elected" thanks to exactly the same kind of manipulation used
Re: (Score:2)
African states are...let's call them "fickle." It is the least stable continent, politically and economically speaking, though the situation is slowly improving. This makes external manipulation that much easier, which is a benefit to China right now, but the former colonial powers and the US still have their regional interests. The right trade deals after a political transition (planned or not) could lead to previous agreements being conveniently left to run their course or even just forgotten.
China's midd
Tierra del Mar (Score:2)
run cable to HK, create a firewall around China. (Score:2)
The pipe can also be used by American hackers as a door into HK and China.
Re: (Score:2)
It may have eluded your attention that this pipe presents no actual potential vectors for attack that do not already exist via communication satellites that already exist.
The cable would make existing communication *faster*, it would not introduce any new attack vectors that do not already exist.
Suggesting it would create any new problems is like saying that because having a job makes it easier to buy alcohol, and in turn easier to drive drunk, you should stop any more people from having jobs to reduc
What the fuck, dude? (Score:2, Interesting)
The "national security" issue that would be created by this already exists... Hasn't he not heard of these things called communication satellites?
All this cable would do is make existing communication faster, it wouldn't otherwise be introducing any new kinds of vulnerabilities at all.
Against the spirit of the Internet (Score:1)
Re: (Score:3)
And China's gonna pay for it.
Re: (Score:2)
You seem to be lecturing the wrong party.
As someone in Hong Kong that was going to build a (Score:2)
This is confirmation again that HK has no future.
I got lucky I just had my first build out and I was getting quotes on the 100gig connection when the security law was forced. The phone company PCCW and HK Broadband didnâ(TM)t even bit getting back to me.
This place is now dead.
Shooting ourselves in the foot -- again (Score:3)
Pretty soon we're gonna run out of feet. Let's face it, state-level actors of all advanced nations have access to huge amounts of raw data. The world happens to be way more interconnected, already, than most people realize.
And communications are a two-way street. We may hamper Asia's connectivity, but guess what, it'll put a crimp in our own bandwidth as well.
You can try to pretend each country is its own little world, but you'll soon run right into reality. Hope the collision isn't too painful.
cables don't spy on people... (Score:1)
Failure to pay the piper? (Score:1)
The problem with this project may be as simple as neglecting to include a Trump empire financial benefit. .