Facebook Threatens To Pull Out of Europe If It Doesn't Get Its Way (vice.com) 217
Facebook has threatened to pack up its toys and go home if European regulators don't back down and let the social network get its own way. From a report: In a court filing in Dublin, Facebook said that a decision by Ireland's Data Protection Commission (DPC) would force the company to pull up stakes and leave the 410 million people who use Facebook and photo-sharing service Instagram in the lurch. If the decision is upheld, "it is not clear to [Facebook] how, in those circumstances, it could continue to provide the Facebook and Instagram services in the EU," Yvonne Cunnane, who is Facebook Ireland's head of data protection and associate general counsel, wrote in a sworn affidavit.
The decision Facebook's referring to is a preliminary order handed down last month to stop the transfer of data about European customers to servers in the U.S., over concerns about U.S. government surveillance of the data. Facebook hit back by filing a lawsuit challenging the Irish DPC's ban, and in a sworn affidavit filed this week, the company leveled some very serious accusations about the Irish data-protection commissioner, including a lack of fairness and apparent bias in singling out Facebook. Cunnane points out that Facebook was given only three weeks to respond to the decision, a period that is "manifestly inadequate," adding that Facebook wasn't contacted about the inquiry prior to judgment being handed down. She also raises concerns about the decision being made "solely" by Helen Dixon, Ireland's data protection commissioner.
The decision Facebook's referring to is a preliminary order handed down last month to stop the transfer of data about European customers to servers in the U.S., over concerns about U.S. government surveillance of the data. Facebook hit back by filing a lawsuit challenging the Irish DPC's ban, and in a sworn affidavit filed this week, the company leveled some very serious accusations about the Irish data-protection commissioner, including a lack of fairness and apparent bias in singling out Facebook. Cunnane points out that Facebook was given only three weeks to respond to the decision, a period that is "manifestly inadequate," adding that Facebook wasn't contacted about the inquiry prior to judgment being handed down. She also raises concerns about the decision being made "solely" by Helen Dixon, Ireland's data protection commissioner.
Most famous quote in such a situation (Score:5, Insightful)
Goodbye and good riddance...
Btw. no one needs Facebook!
Facebook is useful (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm guessing there's a lot of introverts on
I'm not saying this makes the terrible things FB does balance out, but I *am* saying this means they'll have leverage when they threaten to leave as millions of people face being cut off from their social circles.
Yes, people do actually use FB as "social media" and not just political shit posting...
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That's what they're doing (Score:4, Insightful)
Extroverted nerds have a hard time finding people to hang with. They're not nerds because they want to be, they're usually nerds because, well, they're kinda weird. Short, ugly, odd personality quirks. I'm an introverted nerd, so I never really encountered them until years later I met and hung out with one. It was strange talking to someone that wanted to be around people but had a hard time doing it not because they get stressed/nervous around them but because they're just sorta odd by most people's standards.
For those folks FB is an invaluable resource because it let's them network with people like them and break their isolation. There's plenty of them out there, but in a large city it can be hard to find them. Especially in America with it's suburbs.
Re:That's what they're doing (Score:4, Informative)
The main advantage of facebook here is that it is a central service where just about everyone is. With that people don't have to sign of for various platforms that cater to more specific interest groups.
But those services can exist.
I used to be in a social network for metal music, a different one for video games (online forums), another one for STEM students, and so forth. The major inconvenience being that you have to keep track of various accounts on various services.
The main point being that it'll work out. There's plenty to fill the void, though there might be some chaos in the mean time. And it may be extra difficult with the current SARS-CoV-2 situation. But things will work out.
The mere fact that a monolithic service like facebook more or less can hold you hostage like that, make you'll jump to defend them (I don't want to say Stockholm Syndrome, but there it is), should make you think twice about them.
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I disagree respectfully. Real extrovert prefers meeting "IRL." Read study about autistic person. They communicate best by computer screen or letter.
You misread what he said. Extraverts aren't using Facebook to meet. They are using Facebook to find in-person meetings. Say you want to play D&D. No, you don't want to do it online. But where do you find the in-person game? Answer: online.
You're right I did misread it (Score:2)
Normal, attractive extraverts already have plenty of social ties to make use of. Nerdy Extraverts use FB to meet other Nerdy Extraverts who'll put up with their eccentricities. Without a central places like FB to do that they're too spread out and have a hard time finding each other.
Re:Facebook is useful (Score:5, Funny)
The cool nerdy kids in their 30s and 40s build 3D printers, CNC routers and laser cutters and use them to make... more 3D printers, CNC routers and laser cutters.
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Tell that to the 3D printer I made with my CNC, with the help of a 3D printer head module that it cut for itself.
Re:Facebook is useful (Score:5, Insightful)
A tiny bit, maybe, but not much. After all, most of the people who used Myspace have found an alternative by now. It might give meetup.com a small boost; some groups will move to other "social apps" like WhatsApp (which I'm surprised not to see mentioned in the summary, since Facebook now own it), Telegram, Discord, etc. or national advertisement sites (e.g. in Spain there's milanuncios.com). Network effects may make it hard to compete against the big fish in the pond, but if the big fish is killed then the small fish will compete with each other to replace it.
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WhatsApp is not a social app. It's an instant messenger.
WhatsApp group chats are also limited to only 250 members.
That said, you don't seem to understand that, for most people, the INTERNET is Facebook. Many don't understand the concept of googling things, how forums work, or how to sign up for stuff.
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to a certain set of people.
You are right about that. I have FB but it really has become a cesspool, however, for ballroom dancers it is essential to stay in contact with everyone in the sport (both social and competitor). Though everything has halted due to covid-19, FB is the media everyone uses to stay in contact, distribute bulletins of workshops and parties. But this year it has particularly been overrun by political rants, problem is it is all an echo chamber for both sides, has really become ugly especially 90% is emotional, I'
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OK so people need Meetup.com
Still though, why do people need Facebook?
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Because most people don't want to sign up to a million different services.
Works for you and me, but not for most people.
Before Facebook (Score:2)
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Before facebook a lot of people hadn't even been born though.
Also you're talking ALL nerd stuff.
Really, it's nerd stuff,sorry.
Yes, I've been to all the places you mentioned. Participated in BBS, Usenet, email lists, and all. But only "tech savvy" people did it. Not my mom, and certainly not my grandma.
Exactly (Score:3)
Re: Exactly (Score:3)
Facebook didn't even make it easier to spread rumors. It just made it convenient.
This makes no sense. .
1. Convenient is one form of easy.
2. Facebook also made it otherwise easier to speed rumours. Due to its own greed, Facebook promotes groupthink. People are more likely to see messages which agree with their own ideas. Any rumour that they start will not get the sanity check from the rest of the world, and be amplified in the echo chambers of like minded people
Re:Facebook is useful (Score:4, Interesting)
Organizing groups for hobbies and specialized interests is the "good side" of FB. The spamming, snooping, and trolling side of it is what gums up the works. The open question is whether it's economically possible to serve the first interest without too much of the second. Can a company be competitive in the first without being a jerk?
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Not only that, Whatsapp is almost universally used in much of Western and Northern Europe as a primary tool of communication. Everyone is on it. As a point of comparison, Telegram has maybe 10% of my contact list, and Signal which is officially promoted by at least some EU bureaucracies is well below 5%.
This is so bad, that there were a couple of recent brouhahas in various countries where it came to people's knowledge that people like first responders were organising first response situations over whatsapp
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Absolutely. In my rural Northern California county, police, fire, and other first responders post important emergency information on Facebook. They might send out a brief email that says "refer to Facebook page for details."
I'm not a Facebook member, and definitely not a fan, and I think it's tragic that important public business is being conducted on this biased, profit-seeking network. I'm not "friends" with my local police department, and I think this makes about as much sense as holding a public meeting
Re: Facebook is useful (Score:3)
The fact that non-IT people are using Facebook services for critical work does not show that Facebook has created value. It shows that governments have failed to protect these people from Facebook. These people are not expected to know the details of why and how Facebook is bad - governments are expected to have experts to advise them.
And WhatsApp has just replaced SMS and email. All those communications would have been possible if WhatsApp were not available. Only clever marketing made it possible for What
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I would agree. I'm merely making a point that facebook has provided clear value to the society at some levels, and that value will have to be replaced somehow.
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I'm an introvert who can't stand social media but Facebook has me in touch with my sisters who I hadn't previously spoken to in 20 years. I get to see what kinds of lives my nieces and nephews are enjoying. Nieces and nephews that I otherwise wouldn't have even known I have.
I don't like cellphones and I don't like social media. I don't have an Instagram account or use Twitter. But Facebook is just a communications tool and, like all tools, you get to decide how, why and how much you use it. For an introvert
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... Facebook is just a communications tool and, like all tools, you get to decide how, why and how much you use it...
Unfortunately, you don't get to decide why and how much it uses you.
If I trusted Facebook I'd be on it in a heartbeat - there are lots of people from my past that I'd like to connect with, more current friends whose lives I'd be better caught up with, and folks in the rollerskating community whose acquaintance I'd like to meet. The latter especially now since my fiancee and I decided even before Covid that we're unlikely ever to visit the US again.
But I don't trust Facebook, and I don't want to support them
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Oh, we do get it. I fully understand that it allows people to stay in touch and find people with similar opinions and liberates them from the burden of maintaining their own web server etc. etc. But I also understand that it is just a vehicle for data collection and that is very easy to abuse. Not abuse by accident; not just having the potential for abuse. But directly by using the data. It builds critical mass a
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FTFY
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They don't need Facebook or Instagram (unless they're an "influencer", screw them), but if they lose WhatsApp as well (which is owned by Facebook), that's going to impact a LOT of people who rely on it for communication.
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Indeed. Yesss! They are finally going away!
Goodbye and good riddance? No. (Score:2)
From TFA:
How about the U.S.? (Score:5, Interesting)
Can we get them to pull out of the U.S. too?
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Agreed, this is the start of something great.
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++, oh, hell, no, x +=1000;
And then get some of my friends to read their fucking email....
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they're going to pull out? (Score:5, Insightful)
Please do!
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"Cancel culture" is free speech and the free market in action. Naturally, Republicans hate that.
"Cancel culture" is systematic dehumanising of your opponents. GÃbbels would have been proud to invent it.
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You keep using that word "dehumanizing." I do not think it means what you think it means.
The world doesn't owe anyone a platform. You've got your voice, and your hands. Those, and property you own, are the only things you have a right to use to communicate. If someone chooses not to do business with you because they don't like your views, tough. Build your own platform and you won't have that worry. Don't depend on the hard work of others, it's not yours to command.
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You keep using that word "dehumanizing." I do not think it means what you think it means.
This small but vocal sub-culture celebrating lack of basic respect and intolerance of those with different ideologies from their own runs counterproductive to free society and is unquestionably dehumanizing of its victims.
If someone chooses not to do business with you because they don't like your views, tough.
Cancel culture = intolerance culture
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Wrong. It is not a matter of basic respect and tolerance, it is a matter of the free market and property rights.
You seem to think that not giving someone the use of your own property is dehumanizing. So, what is your address? I'll be coming over with my bullhorn. If you don't let me use your front porch to broadcast my message of free furry midget porn for all, you are dehumanizing me and participating in "cancel culture" yourself.
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Grade school libertarian bullshit. Like all libertarian bullshit, it means absolutely nothing in the real world. Grow up.
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Yes, actually, that is it. Nobody owes creatives a platform. And nobody is actually threatening to use government powers to stop you from getting your message out however you like.
What you can't do is force me (or anyone else) to use MY property to broadcast a message I don't agree with. That is not only abrogating my property rights, it is infringing on my own free speech rights. You are literally taking away someone's most basic free expression right (the right to not say something I don't agree with) in
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I'm impressed. A yo momma like less than a minute after I posted. Hats of top you mate.
Re:they're going to pull out? (Score:5, Funny)
Your mum said he was quick too.
Good riddance. (Score:5, Insightful)
Conveniently not mentioned (Score:5, Informative)
It's conveniently not mentioned that Facebook used the Ireland trick in order to massively reduce its world wide tax payments (earlier this year the IRS sued Facebook for roughly $9 billion worth of taxes). If you want tax jurisdiction in Ireland, you get their legal jurisdiction as well.
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Re:Conveniently not mentioned (Score:5, Informative)
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That number either double-counts quite a few people or includes a lot of people who are too young to have a Facebook account according to Facebook's T&Cs. The population of the EU is about 445 million, and about 16% of them are children up to 14 years old (inclusive), giving about 375 million people aged 15+.
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In one word (Score:5, Insightful)
"Doei!"
That's Dutch for "goodbye!", and is especially well-suited for use in a sarcastic context, indicating that the potential loss is not as keenly felt as they probably imagine.
Yes, it will be annoying having to get contact details for some people I now stay in touch with through Facebook. But on the other hand, it will also offer the possibility for various alternatives for Facebook to grow and prosper, so there's that. It certainly opens the possibility for some open source / open protocol version of a Facebook alternative to take root.
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Open source alternative has already existed for 10 years - Diaspora.
Its a bluff (Score:5, Insightful)
Facebook won't pull out of Europe and everyone knows it. Although frankly if they did it would be a huge win for humanity.
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They don't. They could move the servers from the US to Canada and solve all of their problems provided they comply with Canada's privacy laws.
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They don't. They could move the servers from the US to Canada and solve all of their problems provided they comply with Canada's privacy laws.
The timelines and specificity seem very unfair, but the request in general isn't. I mean the cost of a second data centre and managing a routing layer honestly seems negligible and not worth arguing over compared to the profits. What could make it worth arguing about is if that cannot comply with those directives because they have secret government orders (like security letters) from the US government preventing them from doing anything that prevent them from limit US government access.
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I don't think it would matter where the servers physically were... if data is being collected on eurpopeans and being transmitted outside of europe, then it violates this data collection law. Full stop.
Facebook's only recourse is to simply stop collecting data from anyone in jurisdictions with such legislation. If that somehow means that they cannot operate in that jurisdiction at all, so be it.
Re:Its a bluff (Score:5, Informative)
if data is being collected on eurpopeans and being transmitted outside of europe, then it violates this data collection law. Full stop.
Not quite. The actual rule is that the data can only be transmitted to places with adequate data protection laws in place. Previously, there was a workaround where US companies could just sign an agreement agreeing that they would follow the rules but too many US companies went right ahead and violated the agreements and there was a lawsuit where the EU courts declared the agreements did not follow the EU privacy laws.
Canada was quicker on the ball with this than the US was and passed privacy legislation that complied with the EU privacy laws for precisely this reason.
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Ok, but why do they need to transfer EU data to the US so badly?
If I had to guess I'd hazard to say that it's because people in the EU want to share things with their Facebook friends that are not in the EU. Trans-oceanic network hops are slow and consume valuable and limited bandwidth. Thus from a performance standpoint it often makes sense to replicate data that is not updated frequently so that it is closer to the users that want to read it.
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Maybe because they haven't designed their server software the right way?
It looks to me as if Facebook is just trying to avoid having to spend money and effort on software development.
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Just figuring out and replicating the structures that you need for proper isolation its a mind-boggling engineering task that could take years to accomplish. Facebook predates the move on privacy globally, so it's not built from the ground up to isolate people by re
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DO IT! (Score:2)
Dozens of European startups ready to replace it (Score:2)
Re: Dozens of European startups ready to replace i (Score:2)
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Not if other globalized business become regional.
But social Media shouldn't be about business, if it's about business, then it's simply an extended, outsourced PR department. Social media it's about connecting people who are close to you, in most cases, this is literal, meaning people who lives in the same region of the world.
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we don't need UBI, another remedy to late-capitalism is de-globalization. Replacing the dominant global players in each market creates lots of jobs.
By that logic we should just break every window in town [wikipedia.org].
Well now ... (Score:2)
Facebook said that a decision by Ireland's Data Protection Commission (DPC) would force the company to pull up stakes and leave the 410 million people who use Facebook and photo-sharing service Instagram in the lurch.
Well now, Facebook is going home to sulk, leaving a 410 million customer market to its competitors. 'The Zuck' must have caught the perpetual victim virus when he met with Trump. This is good news indeed, what a business opportunity.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out! (Score:5, Insightful)
The US government won't allow it (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't see the US government allowing it's biggest personal data collection system to pull out of Europe. Facebook will agree to whatever terms Europe dictates and it will violate each and every one of them.
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What makes you think the US doesn't have its' hooks into any likely competitor already ???
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What makes you think the US doesn't have its' hooks into any likely competitor already ???
And/or the Russians, Chinese, etc, etc. etc.
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That is precisely what US companies have been doing and why the EU courts have banned the previous agreements that allowed US companies to move EU data to the US.
call! (Score:3)
Fsck me, that's to close to an actual slogan for comfort...
Facebook Threatens To Pull Out of Europe If It Doe (Score:5, Funny)
Don't delay. Just go. Go Now (Score:2)
We don't want your drug pushing cesspit here. Yes Zuck, you make FB etc deliberately addictive to get people hooked just like someone on a street corner selling £5 bags of crack.
Go and good riddance to you.
Great news! (Score:2)
Great news! Please do it!! Goodbye!
Facebook ... and all the companies it owns? (Score:3)
Facebook (the app) I would not miss at all. It has been in decline for years. However whatsapp (possibly messenger too) I would miss.
Good riddance (Score:3)
Facebook's inability to come up with a business model that doesn't rely on exploiting its userbase is no one's fault but its own. Countries that are interested in this brand of 'innovation' are welcome to them.
TFA ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Cunnane also complains that Facebook is being singled out, noting no other big tech company using similar methods to transfer data to the U.S. from the EU is under the same scrutiny.
Expect similar scrutiny to be applied to others soon.
“Facebook is not threatening to withdraw from Europe,” a Facebook spokesperson said, adding that the court filing simply lays out how “Facebook, and many other businesses, organisations and services, rely on data transfers between the EU and the US in order to operate their services.”
Then sell Facebook's European operations to a bunch of select European investors. It's what President Trump would 'encourage' them to do.
Besides threatening to close down Facebook and Instagram completely, Cunnane also points out that Facebook is an important tool for the freedom of expression of its 410 million EU users...
Give it six months, alternatives will sprout like mushrooms.
On which Facebook paid next to no effective taxes, so cry me a river.
Facebook’s entire business model relies on being able to easily and quickly transfer data across the globe so that it can better target users with ads. By disrupting that flow of data, the EU is threatening Facebook’s revenue potential
Revenue on which Facebook pays next to no effective taxes so again, cry me a river.
“The idea that Facebook would withdraw from the European market is absurd brinksmanship that I don’t think anyone truly believes,”
I don't either but it was sure fun to watch Facebook squeal.
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Give it six months, alternatives will sprout like mushrooms.
Less. We already have several alternatives, they just lost the popularity contest.
Let me join everyone else. (Score:2)
Cuckberg, don't let the door hit you on your way out.
They're bluffing (Score:3)
Both of them.
Who will blink?
Do _yourself_ a favour (Score:2)
Watch "The Social Dilemma" by Netflix if you still think social media is not a danger.
Dammit we've left the EU! (Score:5, Funny)
So I suppose we'll still have Facebook in the UK.
Can we rejoin, please? Pretty please?
Empty Threat (Score:3)
They would never pull out and give a competitor time to take hold in any market, but especially the EU.
Do it (Score:2)
Do it. Leave the market for the rest of us. We'll gain in productivity and we'll have a bigger market share.
Awesome! (Score:2)
I've never considered emigrating to Europe as seriously as I did when I read this headline.
Empty Promises (Score:2)
more to come .. (Score:2)
sooner or later there will be more of this to come. there are actually 2 legal problems here.
1) we don't want other people spying on our citizens ( because that facilitates recruiting in country spies).
2) we want to be able to spy on our citizens without having to have a international subpoena ( because we want to enforce our laws even the ones other countries don't like).
So, the internet becomes divided , unless we can start finding ways of creating strong encryption so that countries cannot block access
Please, please yes! (Score:2)
Do it!
Many grannies will at least be free to do something else.
Good, do it, Zuck. (Score:3)
yes, please ! (Score:3)
Seems that Zuckerberg is reading too much /. - where we find such nonsense all the time.
Please, Facebook. Go, exit Europe. We'll replace you in no time with something better. Something that respects privacy, the laws, and maybe even pays its taxes. And there's a good chance that this something, not hindered by teenager angst and greedy stupidity, will then go and trample the rest of FB into the ground globally.
Can't wait.
Do your own Brexit (Score:2)
Now that Britain blazed the trail and showed everyone how to get out of Europe, Facebook has no excuse in keeping its promise.
How about a name for this ?
Facexit ? Not very good, can use some help here.
Do they mean it? (Score:2)
At last something good in 2020 - if they do go (Score:3)
Facebook is acting like a spoilt toddler and throwing a tantrum because it can't get its way -- sadly this is becoming the new norm.
A sharp "Goodbye then!" would (a) call their bluff and (b) maybe, just maybe, set an example to the "me me me !" attitudes of big businesses (in many markets and of many nationalities) and persuade them to think of others as well as themselves once in a while.
Facebook - just go. We could all do with some cheering up with the year we're having.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out (Score:2)
And nothing of value was lost. (Score:3)
Facebook (and Twitter and Instagram and most other social media platforms) are destructive forces [skoll.ca] and if they quit a market, that will save that market from having to ban them.