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Facebook Bans Holocaust Denial On its Platform (axios.com) 229

Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg announced Monday that the tech giant would be expanding its hate speech policies to ban any content that "denies or distorts the Holocaust." From a report: Zuckerberg was caught flat-footed in a 2018 interview with Kara Swisher, then host of the Recode Decode podcast, when he said that he didn't believe Facebook should take down Holocaust denial content because "I think there are things that different people get wrong," even if unintentionally. Zuckerberg quickly clarified his statement at the time, emailing Swisher that "I personally find Holocaust denial deeply offensive, and I absolutely didn't intend to defend the intent of people who deny that." "Our goal with fake news is not to prevent anyone from saying something untrue -- but to stop fake news and misinformation spreading across our services." Starting today, if people search for the Holocaust on Facebook, the company will start directing them to authoritative sources to get accurate information. In a blog post explaining the policy, Facebook's VP of content policy Monika Bickert says, "Enforcement of these policies cannot happen overnight. There is a range of content that can violate these policies, and it will take some time to train our reviewers and systems on enforcement," she writes. "We are grateful to many partners for their input and candor as we work to keep our platform safe." "I've struggled with the tension between standing for free expression and the harm caused by minimizing or denying the horror of the Holocaust. My own thinking has evolved as I've seen data showing an increase in anti-Semitic violence, as have our wider policies on hate speech. Drawing the right lines between what is and isn't acceptable speech isn't straightforward, but with the current state of the world, I believe this is the right balance," Zuckerberg wrote today.
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Facebook Bans Holocaust Denial On its Platform

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  • Good. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by sandbagger ( 654585 ) on Monday October 12, 2020 @10:37AM (#60598908)

    We're in the first generation of social medial. It tool literally generations to come up with the social, legal and political frameworks for mitigating and managing the impact of printing presses on the world. The internet will need about as much time, I guess.

    That aside, this seems an overdue step.

    • Re: Good. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by MrNaz ( 730548 ) on Monday October 12, 2020 @10:45AM (#60598952) Homepage

      Yes. It'll be great when media platforms decide what is true and untrue, and censor everyone's content accordingly.

      Then we as a people will live in a Utopia where we never get subjected to anything untrue or fake.

      • Re: Good. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by sdinfoserv ( 1793266 ) on Monday October 12, 2020 @10:50AM (#60598988)
        “The Media” has always decided what is true and what untrue (aka lies). The difference is that we used to have editors, investigative journalists, fact checkers, and when wrong, they would issue redactions and held accountable.
        We’ve given all that up for the immediate gratification of being “liked”, and for a very small number of individuals to become unimaginably rich.
        • Re: Good. (Score:3, Insightful)

          by MrNaz ( 730548 )

          No. My Facebook feed is not the NYT and should not be subjected to the same standards. It's beyond insane to even compare the two.

          • Re: Good. (Score:5, Insightful)

            by nitro001 ( 7334726 ) on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:19AM (#60599164)

            No. My Facebook feed is not the NYT and should not be subjected to the same standards. It's beyond insane to even compare the two.

            The only problem here is that you use the NYT for your news source, which I am not saying is wrong, and Facebook for social media. Some people, not me, now use Facebook as their primary news source. It is their one place to see friends AND get their News and what is going on in the world, their New York Times. Now, I don't believe this is right, but when you have a platform so open that people can share "News" it starts to become a news outlet.

            • by MrNaz ( 730548 )

              True, and it's a good point. But the same could be said of nosy grannies talking across neighborhood fence lines. In many communities, they are the primary source of "news". We don't regulate what they tell each other.

              I'm aware the analogy isn't perfect, and I am recognizing your point. However I am also pointing out that just because someone's business takes on a news-like character does not mean we should empower them to become de-facto censors.

              • by malkavian ( 9512 )

                The problem being, as soon as a business takes on a news-like character, they are becoming de-facto censors. They publish what they think is important to their world view (rightly or wrongly), and people that access that information source will be influenced by it.

                In your grannies talking across fences analogy, they are the de-facto censors at that point. Information that they don't want to be presented isn't, and it's buried. Sometimes it may be that they don't actually know the information (so it's eff

          • When 62% of American adults get their news from Social Media, the comparison must be made:
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
            The fact that you choose to look at and potentially read the NYT for news, elevates you above (c) two thirds of the American adult population.
            • And yet the average reader of the NYTimes thinks that the whackos who were plotting to kidnap the Michigan governor were right-wingers. In realty, they are a mix of anarchists and anti-trumpers...

        • by EvilSS ( 557649 )

          We’ve given all that up for the immediate gratification of being “liked”, and for a very small number of individuals to become unimaginably rich.

          This is one of the great travesties of the 21 century. Traditional media has been eviscerated by the 24 hour news cycle and the immediacy of the internet and editorial oversight is all but dead, even at many large news orgs. Today the majority of reporting is either so shallow as to not even pass muster as a /. summary, or essentially opinion content posing as news. I'd love to blame one side or the other but both are guilty of it. Sadly the media has discovered there is more money in click-bait headlines a

        • Actually, not true. School boards have determined what is true/not true to a far greater extent. History is constantly being rewritten. How many have a clue eugenics was a thing in the US before Germany as just one example?
      • Where the past generations we had the Publishing Companies decide what was true and not, before that the Scribes would decide what was true or not.

        The point of Science and Philosophy is a way to create a framework to judge what is True and Untrue, There is a tone of evidence supporting the idea the Holocaust existed and it happened. Compared to Conspiracy theories which are backed up by Faulty Logical Arguments. For an Educated Scribe, A publishing company with a reputation to maintain, or a Social Media

      • Oh will you please stfu.

        There's obvious limits to the First Amendment, like yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater - do you have a problem with that?

        A media platform is subject to even less stringent rules about what they can ban or not, but banning Holocaust denial is a no-brainer. Unless you're a Holocaust denialist, I suppose. In that case, I guess you have a right to be upset. Let us know how that works out for you.
      • by nasor ( 690345 )
        The question isn't "will it be great?"

        The question is "will it be better than what we have now?"

        No one ever promised you "great".
    • We're in the first generation of social medial. It tool literally generations to come up with the social, legal and political frameworks for mitigating and managing the impact of printing presses on the world. The internet will need about as much time, I guess.

      That aside, this seems an overdue step.

      You mean this is a pointless step.

      I'm sorry, but attempting to legitimize any data sitting on social media platforms, is akin to herding insane cats. Social media, is too far gone. It's time to separate the fact from the chaff, and at least attempt to stand up a completely separate platform (e.g. Wikipedia) that is not within the fucking cesspool of social humanity.

      It's time to define social media as no more than the mindless entertainment that it is. It is NOT, nor should it ever be, a "printing press.

      • by Zitchas ( 713512 )

        Unfortunately, while social media isn't actually a printing press, it basically is acting like one anyway.

        Printing presses revolutionized communication because it lowered the bar for mass communications. Before it, you had to be sufficiently wealthy to hire dozens of scribes to recopy your text, or higher hundreds of people to go yell your message in the streets. Both were activities limited to the rich.

        Then with the printing press, you didn't need to be rich anymore. Probably still had to have at least som

    • by goombah99 ( 560566 ) on Monday October 12, 2020 @10:59AM (#60599034)

      If you look back in history there's endless of examples of counter culture ideas that eventually became the accepted wisdom. Opposition to slavery, women voting. etc...

      And there are ideas that clearly need to be snuffed out like Holocaust Denial.

      A good quesiton is who should decide these things. The holocaust one seems rock solid. But what if the question was about people claiming that blacks are mentally equal to white people. In the early 1800's you'd be an offensive radical and these days it's offensive to say the reverse. So if we'd had facebook, snuffing out the mental-deficiency deniers then we'd never have moved on to the common wisdom we have now about mental equality.

      So how is facebook deciding what's right thinking and society deciding what is right thinking different. In one case it's a corporation and the other it's society self-determining. Democracy verses autocracy.

      It sure is a lot more efficient to have one person by fiat determine what is right or wrong. But it may not be the best way overall. For every truly correct good (like holocaust denial) there might be dozens of incorrect decisions.

      This is not an argument that we should just say facebook is an agnostic communication service and society can use it as it would any communication service to decide what is right and wrong. Facebook is not agnostic, it amplifies. If puts you in a bubble. You see what you want to see. What's wrong with amplicifaction is that small voices can drown out larger voices, or seem equal. Thus people can't assess concesus with their peers. It undoes the process of forming concensus that societies use to slowly evolve from one state of opinion to another.

      I do not know what the right answer to this is.

      • If you look back in history there's endless of examples of counter culture ideas that eventually became the accepted wisdom. Opposition to slavery, women voting. etc...

        Actually that would be when actual wisdom and common sense, finally defeated corruption.

        Opposition to slavery made no sense to the enslaved. Opposing women voting was nothing more than a power play by men. Both are examples of corrupt power, corrupting.

        And there are ideas that clearly need to be snuffed out like Holocaust Denial....I do not know what the right answer to this is.

        Yes, you do. When the problem is stupid gullible people, you don't blame the microphone or the loudspeaker. You educate (or eradicate) stupid gullible people.

        Or you try and corral those insane cats to an identified part of the internet. Say social media

      • Just a suggestion to throw out there:

        Maybe we should tolerate all *opinions*, but not tolerate all *statements of fact*? So if someone wants to state that slavery is either good or bad, those are unprovable opinions about morality, both should be tolerated (even though you and I are pretty sure one is morally wrong). But if someone wants to state that the Holocaust didn't occur, you and I can agree that is an incorrect statement of fact, so discussion forums should be free to ban it.

        This (if well executed)

      • by jm007 ( 746228 )
        good stuff

        self-determination implies personal responsibility and that takes effort, and lots of it

        there' s a good many people who can't or won't do this and instead take the easier way of shirking responsibility; this is usually manifested in proclaiming what others 'should' or 'ought' to be doing

        the idea that any gov't or private entity is better placed and informed than myself for determining my own life is repulsive; I believe it's also un-American and un-human to put individual rights below an
  • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Monday October 12, 2020 @10:41AM (#60598932)

    ban any content that 'denies or distorts the Holocaust.'

    These days it is very popular to claim that people who disagree with you ideologically are Nazgul (Slashdot lameness filter does not like me using the German N word).

    That itself greatly distorts to Holocaust, by minimizing what actually occurred by equating some trivial first world debate to an organization putting people in gas chambers.

    So will calling others Nazgul also be banned and blocked?

    • Considering you can't use the N word yourself I think you answered your own question.

      • Slashdot is imposing a "lameness" filter when using certain words or phrases. Not sure when it was added or what it encompasses as I have only been accused of being lame once by Slashdot (but daily by my friends). But presumably if he changes the "German N word" to "N***" then it gets flagged as lame and you can't submit. And indeed, I can't submit until I add the "***".

      • Different reasons (Score:5, Insightful)

        by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Monday October 12, 2020 @12:14PM (#60599476)
        /. banned N_A_Z_I because of trolls. It was meant to improve discourse. Facebook is trying to remove literal neo-N***s from their platform. It's not about improving discourse, they're worried about a literal 4th Riech getting it's start on their platform.

        This isn't idle speculation. Facebook has been used for some pretty fucked up shit down in Brazil that we found out about in an info leak from one of their ex-employees. And FB has been tied to wide scale ethnic violence in several countries.

        That said, the main reason they're doing this is they've drawn the ire of both political parties. The right wing doesn't like that young people can be politically active on it and the left wing doesn't like that domestic terrorists can be politically active on it. So both sides of he aisle are about to come down hard.

        It's similar to what happened to the video game industry in the 90s or the credit card industry in the 2000s. They're trying to self regulate before the government does it for them.
        • Also the lameless filter isn't very good if I can literally get around it with underscores :)
        • /. banned N_A_Z_I because of trolls.

          Slashdot's filter is getting fucking retarded (let's see if this get's through). The other day I literally couldn't tell someone that there's a battery size smaller than AAA because apparently adding the 4th A makes my entire 3 paragraph post of words look "too much like ASCII art".

          You also get hit by the lameness filter when talking about DNSSEC in the context of many other technologies because throwing too many capitalised acronyms in one post, however nerdy, or however technical or relevant it is to the

        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          At least in video games you are usually killing *azis.

          The complaints from Twitter *azis about Wolfenstein being all about murdering them are hilarious.

    • ban any content that 'denies or distorts the Holocaust.'

      These days it is very popular to claim that people who disagree with you ideologically are Nazgul (Slashdot lameness filter does not like me using the German N word).

      That itself greatly distorts to Holocaust, by minimizing what actually occurred by equating some trivial first world debate to an organization putting people in gas chambers.

      So will calling others Nazgul also be banned and blocked?

      Are we serious here? We can't even use the term Grammar N@zi anymore?

      Slashdot, the fuck happened to you? When did you become afraid of certain combinations of letters?

      And of course, the obvious question, what in the FUCK would you like us to use instead of the word N@zi when describing that group of people?

      Ah, nothing like censorship for Stupid's sake...

      • The lameness filter should possibly just pop up as a warning, then if you post anyway just flag the post as lame. But with such a relevant topic here, it's a bit absurd to try to discuss the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei without using the more common English abbreviation. Even the German NSDAP won't be well understood outside of Germany. Maybe Slashdot itself needs a lameness flag on it.

        • The lameness filter should possibly just pop up as a warning...

          For what? To self-identify how lame a lameness filter is? Stupid, is stupid. I mean, what in the fuck is a "lameness filter" anyway? Sounds like some childish crap we should have left back on the elementary school playground.

          And it's just a word. One that has an accurate and valid definition and use case. "Sticks" and "Stones" turned into 4-letter terrorist threats to a generation who considers an unabridged dictionary a weapon.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Given that they aren't banning actual flag waving swastika tattoo nazguls from their platform I doubt they care about this.

    • by hey! ( 33014 )

      So what you're saying everyone who denies the Holocaust is not a Nazgul? Sure, but is the important thing formal membership in the party, or spreading the party's lies?

      • So what you're saying everyone who denies the Holocaust is not a Nazgul?

        I'd say that's probably the case, some people have other motives I think. Some people just like to pretend some history does not exist, because they don't believe people could do something... some people are just confused.

        Sure, but is the important thing formal membership in the party, or spreading the party's lies?

        I find it extremely important to let people attempt to spread lies online for two reasons:

        1) You can see what people belie

        • by hey! ( 33014 )

          Nobody is saying preventing people from spreading lies online. The question is whether Facebook has the right to keep them of *its* site.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12, 2020 @10:43AM (#60598944)

    It's not an easy decision. If you ban holocaust denial, do you then ban common Turkish denials of the Armenian genocide for example? If not, why would one population mass killing be any different than another? Etc.

    • The Turks don't deny that there were mass killings of Armenians. They just deny that it was a planned and deliberate policy.

      Holocaust deniers can't make that argument, since the planning and deliberation, starting with the Wannsee Conference [wikipedia.org], are well documented.

    • by nasor ( 690345 )
      This is an example of the "whataboutist" fallacy. Yes, modern Turkey has a big problem with denial of the Armenian genocide. But we don't have to decide what to do about Turkish denial of the Armenian genocide to decide what to do about holocaust denial. The question of whether Facebook should ban holocaust denial stands or falls on its own merits.
  • Any other event in history can be questioned as new evidence comes forth. Why not for this? Why should there be a difference?

    • by aviators99 ( 895782 ) on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:02AM (#60599064) Homepage

      Any other event in history can be questioned as new evidence comes forth. Why not for this? Why should there be a difference?

      One of the differences with this one is that it happened practically yesterday, and there are still many many people alive who witnessed it and watched their families murdered. What evidence can counteract that? I wasn't going to comment on the post because I'm not in favor of censorship. But I felt this questions shouldn't go unanswered.

      • Palestine has a right to exist, and existed before Israel. The genocide going on this moment against Palestinians is well-documented, yet it is not stopped. It was not the Palestinians who put the jews in camps under WW2, so why should they suffer now?

        • Palestine has a right to exist, and existed before Israel. The genocide going on this moment against Palestinians is well-documented, yet it is not stopped. It was not the Palestinians who put the jews in camps under WW2, so why should they suffer now?

          Not only is this non-responsive to the post to which you replied (mine), but I'm not sure you realize that you've gone the extra step that's not normally needed to associate your claimed Israeli actions as those of Jews.

        • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

          by OrangeTide ( 124937 )

          There is no special right for a nation to exist. And if there way, why would age matter?

          Human rights violations against the Palestinian people is a crisis of our time because the superpowers of the world not only ignore it, but in the same breath claim to be defenders of the free world.

      • It was 75 years ago, that's an entire human lifetime. Know what happened "yesterday"? 9/11, Hong Kong protests, Charlie Hedbo, Columbine, Tiananmen, Sandy Hook, ISIS, and Swine Flu. People involved in each of those events are "alive who witnessed it" and watched their friends and families die.

        Yes, in terms of body count these are small potatoes, but the list of tragedies should not be treated like a scoreboard.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      The evidence that millions of people were murdered is undeniable at this point. The reason it's such an important issue is that holocaust denial is used to promote modern neo-*azism.

      It's a gateway, they spin out the old "you are being lied to buy we can help you wake up" red pill line, starting with holocaust denial. From there it develops to "they want you to feel guilty" and of course "they" are Jews.

    • This is just false. Lots of countries have anti-genocide denial laws in general, and attempts to make such laws to handle specific events are not uncommon. For example, France passed a law making it a crime to deny the Armenian Genocide https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-16677986 [bbc.com], although the law was then struck down by the court https://www.cnn.com/2012/02/28/world/europe/france-armenia-genocide/index.html [cnn.com]. For a more systematic breakdown, see https://www.sascv.org/ijcjs/pdfs/Pruittijcjs2017vol12issue2 [sascv.org]
    • Sounds like you might own some jewelry made from tooth fillings.

    • by nasor ( 690345 )
      There's a difference between a good-faith effort to improve the signal vs. a bad-faith effort to obscure the signal by deliberately injecting noise.
  • by jellomizer ( 103300 ) on Monday October 12, 2020 @10:50AM (#60598984)

    Today we have a big problem with the implementation of Free Speech, and Political Speech.
    Every stupid thing that comes up is twisted into some political statement. There are still survivors from the Holocaust today, we also have a lot of documentation on what happened and where. We have photographic and video evidence of the time... However there are political groups, where their stances have these facts that get in the way of their ideology. So they twist it around to make it seem like it didn't happen, it wasn't that bad, or it was for their benefit.... So because they have tied this to their political ideology, it has moved from just a lie, or stupid conspiracy theory which can be normally blocked, because it is obviously false, to Political Speech which should have much more protection.

    Anti-Vax, Flat Earthers, Holocaust Deniers, Human caused Global Warming Deniers, Creationist, and Anti-GMO activists.

    Now I want to see open Political Speech of different ideas. However these ideas should be backed up with facts, not having a fact discredited, or conspiracy theory explained just to make their pieces fit.

    • and apple better look out from doing the same as stuff like limited Free Speech, and Political Speech to only groups they want may kill there app store lockin.

    • Here's the problem; you have a great list of things that are completely stupid to believe in for any rational-minded, critical-thinking person. The problem is that anyone with an ounce of rationality would also put Islam on that list (along with Christianity, Judaism, etc.). But to the people who want to ban discussion of those other stupid beliefs, who are highly grouped on the left side of the political spectrum, will find that absolutely unacceptable. If they were consistent in their principles it's on
    • Apparently, wanting to have facts and evidence is in itself a political viewpoint?

    • My sincere hope is that Facebook can become a playground for simpletons. I'm glad Zuck is willing to step up and look after these poor souls who clearly can't even look after themselves.

      The way to unlock the door to free speech is simply to click away from the site.

  • '"I think there are things that different people get wrong," even if unintentionally.'

    Stupidity comes in many shades, always unintentionally.

  • Can we ban also denying that communism/socialism killed ~ 100M people in the 20th century and the whole 'it was bad people hiding behind the great socialist ideals' farce?

    I always thought that the way to win a discussion was a good argument. Not banning the other viewpoint from discussion. And I think we should apply that principle everywhere. To fight both 'holocaust deniers' as 'socialism deniers'.

    I think it boils down to our own insecurity: we don't quite know the good arguments to refute holocaust
  • What idiot would be looking up Holocaust information on Facebook?
    Or news? Or anything other than people that have an account?
    I cannot fathom that. It is no wonder things are in such a mess.

    • What idiot would be looking up Holocaust information on Facebook?

      Don't know much about Americans, do ya?

  • Today they're going to tell you what to believe about the Holocaust.

    Tomorrow they're going to tell you what to think about religion and politics.

    Mark: why don't you try letting people post what they want to post?
  • Apologies in advance.

    First they came for Qanon, but I was not a anonymous,
    then they came for Holocaust deniers, but I did not deny
    then they came for Vaginal Rocks proponents, but I don't have a vagina,

    Go ahead, add your own lines.

  • How the fuck morally bankrupt is Zuckerberg personally and Facebook to have allowed this pure hate bullshit on their platform? Facebook should be completely disbanded.
  • by joe_frisch ( 1366229 ) on Monday October 12, 2020 @12:15PM (#60599496)

    I am certain the Holocaust happened - my best friend in high school's parents were in a concentration camp as children. I have no doubt at all.

    But... it is a historical event and I NEVER want to restrict people's ability to discuss historical events. Look how our opinions of Columbus, and the British Empire have changed. I don't want to end up in a situation where history cannot be discussed.

    I know FB is private, but it has become the defacto public forum. I strongly oppose all attempts to limit conversations. The only exception I would make is for information that presents a clear an immediate health risk- and even then I'm uneasy.

  • Does that mean that all posts from groups associated with holocaust denial - even if the posts themselves are not denying the holocaust or if the group has other purposes - will be banned?

    An example that comes to mind is a CNN interview from several years ago of Mahmoud Ahmedinejad (then president of Iran, whose last name I probably just misspelled). He was asked by his interviewer (likely Larry King IIRC) why he was at a holocaust deniers conference. His response was along the lines of "I don't deny th
  • by reanjr ( 588767 ) on Monday October 12, 2020 @01:06PM (#60599774) Homepage

    So now you can't deny Jews were killed by Germans, but it's ok to claim the Turks never did anything to the Armenians? And this policy comes from a Jewish man?

    Hmmm. One might reasonably suggest Zuckerberg is a racist.

  • ...if you raise any questions about the Holocaust.

    We have descended to the level of Facebook.

  • ... the other 11 million as well.

Be sociable. Speak to the person next to you in the unemployment line tomorrow.

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