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Transportation Technology

Tesla Starts Full Self-Driving Beta Rollout (electrek.co) 146

Posted by msmash from the moving-forward dept.
Tesla has started the rollout of its Full Self-Driving Beta update, which Elon Musk said "will be extremely slow and cautious." From the report: We have been expecting the update for a while now. Over the last few months, Elon Musk has been talking about Tesla working on "a significant foundational rewrite in the Tesla Autopilot." He has been teasing the new core change to Autopilot, which should be able to interpret its environment in 4D instead of 2D after the update and should result in a rapid improvement in performance and new features being released quicker. More recently, the CEO has been referring to the update as "Full Self-Driving Beta" or "FSD Beta." Last week, Musk said that Tesla will start to release "Full Self-Driving Beta" to some customers on Tuesday. Yesterday, the CEO confirmed that the rollout is happening as planned tonight and added that the system will be "extremely slow and cautious."
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Tesla Starts Full Self-Driving Beta Rollout More

Tesla Starts Full Self-Driving Beta Rollout

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  • Can't wait (Score:3)

    by nospam007 ( 722110 ) * on Wednesday October 21, 2020 @02:23PM (#60632354)

    ...to let a 0.45 beta software version decide over my life and death.

    • Re:Can't wait (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Joce640k ( 829181 ) on Wednesday October 21, 2020 @02:26PM (#60632356) Homepage

      Is it any worse than letting all the texting teenage drunkards out there decide it for you?

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Joce640k ( 829181 )

        Come to think of it: The texting teenage drunkards are the ones who need this the most.

        • Re:Can't wait (Score:4, Insightful)

          by b0bby ( 201198 ) on Wednesday October 21, 2020 @02:51PM (#60632454)

          Them, and the elderly, and people who just never got the hang of driving well, and the people who are momentarily distracted...

          • Re:Can't wait (Score:4, Insightful)

            by Joce640k ( 829181 ) on Wednesday October 21, 2020 @03:06PM (#60632504) Homepage

            Yep. Maybe we're looking at this from the wrong angle when we talk about safety.

            We're all sitting here thinking "it won't be safer than me!!" when we should really be thinking "It'll be far safer out there if all those idiots start using it".

            As George Carlin said: %GeorgeCarlinQuote%

            • Yep. Maybe we're looking at this from the wrong angle when we talk about safety.

              We're all sitting here thinking "it won't be safer than me!!" when we should really be thinking "It'll be far safer out there if all those idiots start using it".

              As George Carlin said: %GeorgeCarlinQuote%

              Yep Dunning and Kruger were above average drivers too

      • "Is it any worse than letting all the texting teenage drunkards out there decide it for you?"

        Canceling all the drunk teenagers on the road is planned for version 0.95.

      • Yes, it is.

      • Is it any worse than letting all the texting teenage drunkards out there decide it for you?

        Unfortunately the teenage drunkards will still be out there and now unfortunately you will also have idiots that will believe that "Full Self-Driving Beta" means they can catch up on e-mails while behind the wheel.

    • well the car owner / car passenger will take the rap.
      And you may need an good attorney to be able to get the logs out of tesla. As the PD attorney may just say take the deal it's just home confinement + community service

      • well the car owner / car passenger will take the rap.
        And you may need an good attorney to be able to get the logs out of tesla. As the PD attorney may just say take the deal it's just home confinement + community service

        Until the "self-driving" car does not have any manual controls, the driver will always be responsible for what the car does.

        Beta testers get none of the benefits and all of the drawbacks.

        • what about just an E-stop button will that count as an manual controls?

          Also even with no manual controls will an phone app count as in control and will you still be able to get an DUI / DWI in an car in self mode?

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by pezpunk ( 205653 )

      irrational idiotsd like you are literally murdering people with that viewpoint. the numbers don't lie, cars operating on autopilot crash about 5x less often than cars not operating on autopilot. but by all means spread fear and ignorance.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by bws111 ( 1216812 )

        What a load of bullshit. First, you are comparing accidents from driving in all kinds of conditions, on all kinds of roads, with accidents when driving only in the narrow conditions where autopilot is used. Second, every single 'autopilot' accident results from TWO failures. The auto pilot failed AND the driver failed to correct it.

        • Also, most $30K+ vehicles have all kinds of proximity sensing. With those and active cruise control, it is a lot harder to get into an accident in a regular vehicle. A $30K+ (new) Tesla should be compared to other new vehicles with a similar price.

      • So his viewpoint is commiting murder? How does that work? That is what you stated. Hyperbole, much?

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Rei ( 128717 )

      Tesla has been clear from the beginning. They don't have to call it beta. They choose to call it beta in order to discourage people from overly trusting it and to stay attentive.

      • Re:Can't wait (Score:5, Informative)

        by Rei ( 128717 ) on Wednesday October 21, 2020 @10:31PM (#60633960) Homepage

        So, here's the text that comes with the update. They're definitely doing their best to try to scare drivers into not being complacent.

        Full Self-Driving (Beta)

        Full Self-Driving is in early limited access Beta and must be used with additional caution. It may do the wrong thing at the worst time, so you must always keep your hands on the wheel and pay extra attention to the road. Do not become complacent.

        When Full Self-Driving is enabled your vehicle will make lane changes off highway, select forks to follow your navigation route, navigate around other vehicles and objects, and make left and right turns. Use Full Self-Driving in limited Beta only if you will pay constant attention to the road, and be prepared to act immediately, especially around blind corners, crossing intersections, and in narrow driving situations.

        The big thing in there IMHO is the "left and right turns". Unprotected left turns especially are one of the hardest things for a self-driving system. However, you have to take on this challenge sooner or later. But it's surely going to take a long time to chase the 9s...

        (The Q3 ER had an interesting picture [thron.com] (pg. 8) showing how visualizes an intersection. Note the caption - they do like rubbing in how they're using a generalized approach for unmapped driving that don't even require a car to have visited the area, unlike competitors which require high-res mapping (premade or crowdsourced) and then drive on their maps like model trains on a track).

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by N1AK ( 864906 )
      I know it's not an appealing scenario, but I genuinely think it's better to allow some leeway here if it gets us to full autonomy faster. Think about all the people who can't drive like the very elderly or disabled that this will help, the huge number of unsafe manual drivers, the number of people already dying on the roads, and the time wasted controlling a vehicle which could be spent productively. I'm not suggesting it should be the "wild west" and anything goes, but given that their are 36k road deaths

      • The high hood line is there precisely FOR pedestrian crash. it provides crush space between the hood and the engine, so the metal can deform and absorb energy, otherwise the target gets crunched up and flicked up into the windscreen. Where do you get this moronic stuff?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Well, from the description I take it that it should not kill you.

  • Hes figured out how to tell the difference between a stop sign and an image of a stop sign in all weather already? Shouldnt basic things like this be done in labs with minerature models and such?
    • The "picture of a stop sign" is pretty silly imho. What if Kramer re-paints the stripes on the roadway to make the lanes wider? What if Wyle E Coyote paints a picture of a road onto a mountain to make the Roadrunner slam into it? It's like pointing out that people could attach a simple device to hydraulic brake lines while you're shopping to make your brakes suddenly stop working. Or throw rocks from overpasses.

      Yeah, they could.

    • It isn't stated to be level 5 autonomy. You still need to be alert, and think for yourself.

      From my understanding the new software will use some historical data to project where an object should be in the future. So the guy crossing an intersection, you see that it will not slow down in time, so it may tell the car to stop vs keep on going because it has the righter way.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Joce640k ( 829181 )

      Hes figured out how to tell the difference between a stop sign and an image of a stop sign in all weather already? Shouldnt basic things like this be done in labs with minerature models and such?

      Imagine if cars already knew where the stop signs were supposed to be? Then imagine the database could be updated if enough cars saw a new stop sign where there wasn't one before.

      Mind. Blown. Right?

      PS: Your "minerature(sic) models" idea is completely 1970s. These days we do it all virtually in the cloud. We can even make games where idle people on lunch breaks can play with an "app" making new scenarios to try and fool the system.

      • That would never work. Many places don't have mobile internet. Who pays for the service? How to they ensure every construction change made by every city on every intersection in the world is updated soon enough to prevent accidents? What about stop signs in parking lots? Who pays for extra surveying of the intersection when the construction is done?

        You just extended self driving 50 years.
      • I know the navigation maps in my vehicle are at least 10 years out of date in my city. There is an entire cloverleaf in a place that shows a right turn only.

    • Re:labs? (Score:4, Funny)

      by Carewolf ( 581105 ) on Wednesday October 21, 2020 @03:17PM (#60632548) Homepage

      They solved the problems by redefining "fully self-driving" to be level 2 AI barely above a cruse control :D

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ras ( 84108 )

      Hes figured out how to tell the difference between a stop sign and an image of a stop sign in all weather already?

      If by "he" you mean Musk, then yeah he did that by about the age of 3 or so. But if you mean "he taught his cars how to tell the difference ...", then no he didn't. An AI learnt how to do that by just looking at millions(?) of examples of stop signs in various conditions. If it isn't better at doing that now than we are, it will be soon. All "he", or rather his minions did build the hardware

      • It's very different throwing static pictures at an AI and expecting the AI to do what it does while a car is in motion. I'm not contesting that AI can recognize a stop sign. I just don't think they will ever really be able to omit all the conflicting information that it will have to process in the real world. Not enough for self driving and not yet. They may do it in the way of, "oh it's the human's fault" but they have only just tapped the surface of AI able to operate in real time.
      • The biggest problem with autopilot right now is that it can only stop as a defense when it gets confused. If they could just make it pull over safely every time, then that would be a big benefit. One day an AI will stop unexpectedly in a highway and cause a pileup. The people behind will be blamed, but I don't think that's fair. These cars don't act human enough yet.

        • People do stop unexpectedly on highways frequently, and it is the fault of the idiots who were tailgating. The difference is humans will slam on the brakes a lot harder when startled by something (say a deer on the highway) whereas the AI is capable of a controlled stop and knows when it's safe to swerve into the next lane (which a human can't figure out in time unless they happen to have just checked their mirror) and can project the safest route in milliseconds with centimetre accuracy.

  • Ambulance chasers everywhere applauding (Score:3)

    by sunking2 ( 521698 ) on Wednesday October 21, 2020 @02:28PM (#60632368)

    When people cause injury the individual is singularly responsible. Can't get too much blood from a stone. When Tesla kills somebody? The lawyers will be salivating. Even if accidents go down the lawyers will be making so much more.

    • when the self driving uber killed Elaine Herzberg they paided out real fast

    • No Tesla basically has a cut and try case to protect them. You agreed that FSD is in Beta and you need to be aware while driving at all times and be ready to take over at a whim.

      It is the same if you had Cruse Control and the speed limit changed from 65mph down to 45mph. Just because it didn't slow down automatically you are still on the line for a speeding ticket.

      • The victims and their attorneys will not care what the driver agreed to. They've knowing put a car on the road, made claims that it is capable of driving, and killed someone. It is nothing like cruise control. However, to your point, guess who gets sued if your cruise control fails to deactivate when the brake is pressed. The manufacturer. On their own they are qualifying their own safety controls, which when they mess up they will be held accountable for.

        • What claim that it is capable of driving?
          Tesla says this can happen in the future. However today it is just a feature with the car can fully drive itself. Tesla having more money than most automakers, you think they would have enough lawyers to make sure a random ambulance chaser will not have a strong case.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Even if it says beta they can argue that it's unreasonably dangerous. That's going through the legal motions right now, in fact, in behalf of a Japanese man killed by a Tesla.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Joce640k ( 829181 )

      When people cause injury the individual is singularly responsible. Can't get too much blood from a stone. When Tesla kills somebody? The lawyers will be salivating. Even if accidents go down the lawyers will be making so much more.

      What if a law was passed that gave companies limited immunity? All the company needs to do is show that their cars cause less accidents than humans and they can't be sued.

      Similar laws already exist. eg. Patients in hospitals die every single day and lawyers have to prove a thing called "negligence" before they can sue.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by bws111 ( 1216812 )

        That is one stupid idea. So I guess you are saying that if your loved ones are killed by an SDC, that is OK because they COULD have been (but weren't) killed by a human driver?

        Your hospital example is even stupider. People are in the hostpital in the first place because they are ill. Of course some of them die, that is not the fault of the doctors most of the time.

      • Similar laws already exist. eg. Patients in hospitals die every single day and lawyers have to prove a thing called "negligence" before they can sue.

        That's as it should be. And in the case of self driving cars, there is some governmental oversight as well. Luckily here in Europe ambulance chasing won't be much of an issue; in general people can only claim actual damages (we have fines but no punitive damages for companies), and it is mandatory for every driver (or vehicle) to be insured against that. Any actual harm will be covered by the insurance companies, who for a while might demand that you take out an extra policy for autopilot if you intend t

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by tsqr ( 808554 )

        Similar laws already exist. eg. Patients in hospitals die every single day and lawyers have to prove a thing called "negligence" before they can sue.

        Lawyers don't have to prove anything before they can sue. And they don't really have to prove anything to win in court, either. All they have to do is convince most of the jurors that the hospital/doctors were negligent to win the lawsuit. Sometimes they only have to convince the jury that more could have been done to prevent the death.

        Not a great analogy, by the way. People have been dying in hospitals for a very long time. People have been dying in automobile accidents with people-driven cars for quite a

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by cusco ( 717999 )

          It's even easier than that, they only have to convince the insurance company that it would be cheaper to settle immediately rather than spend time in court.

          • Insurance companies would be the first ones to tell the lawyers to go after Tesla. Tesla isn't their customer.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by cusco ( 717999 )

              Insurance companies are hot for this technology to be deployed, fewer accidents mean fewer payouts to claim holders. Fewer payouts mean higher profits, since we all know that they're not going to reduce rates if they're not forced to.

      • What world do you live in where you are allowed to do some harm if you prevent some? I guess I can punch you in the face if I really want to kick you in the balls. This is a system that has the potential to hurt/kill people. As soon as you open the door liability for that system kicks in if it screws up. Why would you pass a law to protect companies from having potential 737 maxs' driving around.

  • slow & cautious = being crushed by people over the speed limit so self driving can't be stuck on the speed limits

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by b0bby ( 201198 )

      My reading of the actual tweet is that the rollout will be slow and cautious, not (necessarily) the software.

      Quote:
      FSD beta rollout happening tonight. Will be extremely slow & cautious, as it should.

      • Well driving extremely slow & cautious is bad when others are buzzing by and who wants an car that drives in old grandma mode?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by cusco ( 717999 )

          If I don't have to drive? I'll take one. I frelling hate driving, and 90+ percent of my driving is under 100 miles. If it takes 10% longer to get to our cottage that's a whole six minutes, big frelling deal. I've just spent an hour **NOT** having to stress out over every redneck in a monster truck or teenager in a rice burner, and even better my wife hasn't yelled at me once. Give me that amount of terrible, please!

          • just try to 55 on I-294 when it open and see what all other cars / trucks are doing.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by cusco ( 717999 )

              Ha, ha, I don't care! I'm not in a competition, and neither is the Autopilot. The asshole in the BMW will just have to go around us.

              • asshole in the BMW???

                More like an load of trucks and other traffic pushing 65-70+ You do not want to go 55 much less try that in the left lane

  • Reading bug reports... (Score:5, Funny)

    by sinij ( 911942 ) on Wednesday October 21, 2020 @02:41PM (#60632402)
    It appears that your car have plunged from a cliff and came to a fiery crash. Would you like to help us by submitting a bug report? Please describe what you were doing to help us recreate the issue. Have you encountered this issue before?
  • Great for the current situation. Now I can just send my car to the store for contactless pickup. I don't even need to go along.

  • I remain skeptical of the timeline... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Rei ( 128717 ) on Wednesday October 21, 2020 @02:41PM (#60632406) Homepage

    ... for truly driver-free operation with sufficient reliability to convince regulators.

    That said, AP is friggin' amazing already, and I can't wait to see what the new version has in store. :)

    Kind of annoying though being limited in Europe while Americans get all the best stuff. For example, on sharp turns, the car has to deliberately turn too little (it flashes a message up on the screen, "Autosteer limited - prepare to take control") because the EU bans letting systems turn sharper than a given angle. The logic justifying the decision being that they "don't want people getting too overconfident in the system". It's like saying that brakes should only be allowed to slow you down at a maximum given rate because you don't want people getting too confident in their braking distance. Tons of other stuff, too - FSD has to abort turns if they're not taken within a set timeframe (e.g. you can't react to changing circumstances); summon requires such short distances between you and the car that you basically have to treat it like a pet on a leash, and it has a way-too-short legally-mandated maximum trip distance regardless; etc.

    A lot of it feels like it has the old German automakers fingerprints behind it (they've already used an NGO [cleantechnica.com] to anonymously sue Tesla), to stop them from losing so badly in comparisons. Euro-NCAP is a great example [cleantechnica.com]. Even with all of the EU AP-crippling restrictions, Tesla scored perfect in every single technical measure except one (speed assistance), by far the best among such systems in driving performance. But then it got marked down to a mere 36% in the third category due to the name "Autopilot" and their score of "Driver engagement". This put the best-performing system, despite being legally crippled, with just a 6/10 overall score, allowing ADAC, one of the largest German auto lobbying groups, to declare that "as expected, the most expensive driving-assist systems from German premium manufacturers are the best."

    Such a rigged game. :P

    • From TFA "The update is apparently only going to “a small number” of Tesla owners who are “expert and careful drivers” in the company’s early access program."

      If you have ever seen drivers in the EU vs America. There is a difference.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by marktoml ( 48712 ) *

      Well, we got Trump so that sort-of balances the equation.

    • Re: I remain skeptical of the timeline... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Viol8 ( 599362 ) on Wednesday October 21, 2020 @03:23PM (#60632580) Homepage

      Until it can navigate itself around Rome in the rush hour then full self drive it aint. Driving down a nice wide US highway with clear demarcations and traffic ,lights that actually work is a world away from a 2000 year old european city with narrow 2 way cluttered roads and drivers who dont follow many rules.

        And then there the 3rd world...

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Musk keeps changing the meaning of "full self driving", downgrading it from actual self driving and what was originally sold to some level 2 driver aids.

      They are still a long, long way behind the leaders in this field - Waymo and Mobile Eye.

      No update on robotaxi that is supposed to launch this year either.

      • So where are to Waymo and Mobile Eye cars?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          Waymo are running a taxi service, you can book a driverless one in the area they serve.

          Mobile Eye are mostly testing in Israel I think. They don't make cars, they sell the technology to manufacturers.

    • That's funny, other Slashdot posters have said the contrary. A lot of people complain about hard jerky turns and stops, and situations that should have been easy to interpret that it couldn't.
    • Car makers are shitting bricks about Tesla. Last year, the Tesla model 3 outsold any other model here... not just EVs but ICEs too. They outsold the numbers 2 and 3 combined. Granted, it was the year before the tax hike in EV corporate lease cars, so people were eager to lock in their tax break before the year ended. And that NCAP test was utter bollocks, I can't imagine that not being rigged by the other auto makers. They also know that Tesla is years ahead of them in many areas, not just in terms of

  • Cross traffic detection (Score:3)

    by backslashdot ( 95548 ) on Wednesday October 21, 2020 @02:49PM (#60632444)

    It seriously needs 4 more cameras, no way the B-pillar, cameras get good side vision in many urban intersections especially when you are for example having to cross a one way road with traffic coming from the right, or exit many parking garages. The b-pillar camera is too far back in that situation. And no when seeing traffic from the right (when crossing a one way road) your head/eyes have a much better view .. the Tesla has to hit into traffic unsafely to get a good view.

    • Maybe being further back causes it to be more cautious?

      It takes a bit longer to cross the intersection? What do you care? You're busy on your cellphone and won't even notice that.

    • Re:Cross traffic detection (Score:4, Insightful)

      by fluffernutter ( 1411889 ) on Wednesday October 21, 2020 @04:25PM (#60632830)
      Cameras won't work if they are frosted up or in fog. How is an EV with a battery that is already struggling to keep windows defrosted and the cabin warm in -30C going to ever keep every single camera lens clear from ice and snow?

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by poobah75 ( 2883043 )
        Well, from what I can tell, they appear to be isolated from cabin air, and potentially also have heaters like the mirrors and charging port... I drove my Model 3 during a 2019 polar vortex snow storm (where it hit -36 F, -37.7C) and the cameras were fine. I have owned the car for 2+ years, and that was the only time I have EVER seen the warning appear on the "dash" that a "camera was obstructed". ONCE. I pulled over, got out to examine it, brushed off the sleet, and kept going. Plus, you can find multiple "
        • It sounds to me like the ice is a lot worse where I live. Heat doesn't melt it, you have to scrape it off. They have to fine people because they don't want to stand outside for too long in the morning so they just make a small eye hole in the ice on the windshield.

      • uh, no (Score:2, Informative)

        by fyngyrz ( 762201 )

        If an EV battery isn't capable of keeping the cameras warm, the car won't be moving at all. A model 3 standard range vehicle battery is a 50,000 kWh battery. That's fifty thousand.

        The energy required to heat a tiny camera lens even in deep, deep cold... not even a rounding error in this context.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by ledow ( 319597 )

        Though I'm all for the Tesla/Musk bashing, putting a tiny heating element capable of heating a CCD pad and the interior of a tiny sealed camera with lens up to, say, 20 degrees, is well within the realms of a 5V USB cable connected to the lowest-power standard charger (500mA), let alone a 12V battery-powered vehicle.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by crow ( 16139 )

      I've heard that accusation before. It would be really easy to test. Run the feed from the 8 cameras to screens in a room where an operator decides if it's safe to go through the intersection. If the operator says it's safe, but the driver in the car sees something that was missed, then the cameras aren't adequate. Plenty of people have asserted that that's the case, but I haven't heard a single person who has obtained video footage from the cameras saying that. Now granted, there aren't many people who

  • Your brain isn't a computer. It does not contain data. It does not process information. https://psychcentral.com/blog/... [psychcentral.com]

    Your brain evolved to coordinate the actions of a mass of cells interacting with the environment to increase the rate of self replication.

    What is a computer? It's a job. The description of that job is a person who does simple math repeatedly and with a high degree of fidelity. A digital electronic computer is a machine designed to do this job using electricity.

    Computers only do one

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