Elon Musk Admits Tesla Has Quality Problems (cnn.com) 152
In an interview on Tuesday, Tesla CEO Elon Musk sat down with one of Tesla's harshest critics, Sandy Munro, and discussed the issues that plagued early Model 3s. CNN reports: In early 2018 engineering consultant Sandy Munro, who tears apart and reverse-engineers cars to assess quality, issued a brutal appraisal of the Model 3 citing "flaws that we would see on a Kia in the '90s." He noted inconsistencies such as uneven gaps between exterior panels and paint job issues, telling Autoline, "I can't imagine how they released this." Surprisingly Musk, who has often bristled at criticism, agrees. "I thought your criticism was accurate," Musk told Munro in an interview that aired Tuesday on the YouTube channel and podcast "Munro Live."
In the interview Musk also admitted that it might not be a good idea to buy a Tesla during a new model's ramp-up period. Munro's "Kia" critique came when Tesla was still struggling to meet early production targets for the Model 3. "Friends ask, 'When should I buy a Tesla?'" Musk said. "Well, either buy it right at the beginning or when production reaches steady state. During that production ramp, it's super hard to be in vertical climb mode and get everything right on the details."
Munro also questioned Musk about quality control problems more recently. He bought a 2021 Model 3 late last year, and compared it to a Model 3 someone else purchased a month later -- and saw significant improvement. "At the end of the day, this guy's car was fabulous ... as good as anybody could possibly do," Munro said. "I just don't understand. Mine was built this month, his was built a month later. Mine had problems. His was perfect." Musk said Tesla continued to make progress even as recently as December of last year, noting that the company is finding issues more quickly as the pace of production continues to speed up. "When you go faster, you just discover these things," he said. "If we knew them in advance, we'd fix them in advance."
In the interview Musk also admitted that it might not be a good idea to buy a Tesla during a new model's ramp-up period. Munro's "Kia" critique came when Tesla was still struggling to meet early production targets for the Model 3. "Friends ask, 'When should I buy a Tesla?'" Musk said. "Well, either buy it right at the beginning or when production reaches steady state. During that production ramp, it's super hard to be in vertical climb mode and get everything right on the details."
Munro also questioned Musk about quality control problems more recently. He bought a 2021 Model 3 late last year, and compared it to a Model 3 someone else purchased a month later -- and saw significant improvement. "At the end of the day, this guy's car was fabulous ... as good as anybody could possibly do," Munro said. "I just don't understand. Mine was built this month, his was built a month later. Mine had problems. His was perfect." Musk said Tesla continued to make progress even as recently as December of last year, noting that the company is finding issues more quickly as the pace of production continues to speed up. "When you go faster, you just discover these things," he said. "If we knew them in advance, we'd fix them in advance."
Did you see the same interview I did? (Score:5, Informative)
This is a good example of cherry-picking a lengthy and detailed interview where Munro was very laudatory about Tesla engineering and progress, admitting that Tesla is far ahead of others. If anything, Sandy Munro can be considered a Tesla fanboi. His comments were about the fitting of panels, which he called uneven.
What was ALSO discussed was the innovative internal engineering, the massive castings and stamping plants that have eliminated hundreds of robots, and the fact that Tesla is the first company since Chrysler to ramp up automotive production in the USA. If you have not listened to the ENTIRE interview, it may be worthwhile for you to do so. It goes far beyond this slashdot post, which is effectively a distortion of the interview.
Re:Did you see the same interview I did? (Score:4, Interesting)
Unfortunately, because this is Elon and Tesla, we have to fully expect various bloggers and reporters to cherry-pick every single notable sentence fragment from which they can vomit out an entire article.
They're used to figuring out how to turn a 6-word Tweet into a page of copy. Imagine what they'll do with a 45+ minute conversation.
Re:Did you see the same interview I did? (Score:5, Informative)
I watched the interview as well, and all other Munro content, and I had a hard time understanding why OP would post such a blatant and lengthy lie constructed entirely of out of context quotes.
Needs a followup . . . (Score:2)
Could be titled, "slashdot admits quality problems in use of past and present tenses" . . . or maybe blame it on CNN . . .
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They do, so why haven't you bought one?
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I'll wait for the Japanese or Koreans to make an electric car, thank you.
So go buy a Nissan Leaf or Hyundai Ion then?
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Meant Hyundai Ioniq.
Re: Did you see the same interview I did? (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah, basically one of the most intentionally misleading mainstream sources of "news" out there at the moment.
Are you saying Fox went all in on the Qanon theories by accident?
Dropping to third place [cnn.com] still counts as mainstream doesn't it?
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I literally encouraged people to watch the interview, where he mentioned this (he does not remotely try to hide it), and once again chanting your ventilator line like a mantra in every single post won't change the dozens of hospitals that thanked Musk and Tesla or the CEO of Metronic repeatedly stating that SpaceX was critical in expanding their production, both of which I linked dozens of times. At this point it's like saying, "Still waiting on that Biden presidency conman", and then ignoring every time i
You can't build cars like software (Score:4, Insightful)
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You know that Tesla does OTA updates, right?
Tesla owners can select if they want to get "advanced" updates, and Tesla has a process under which they push out an update to a subset of cars and, only when it is shown to be OK do they push it out to a wider pool of cars.
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You know that Tesla does OTA updates, right?
That is terrifying.
Re:You can't build cars like software (Score:4, Insightful)
Did you know that Microsoft and Apple both push OTA updates?
Equally terrifying?
Re:You can't build cars like software (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't have Apple or Microsoft software on any device that can kill me. I hope cars are held to a higher standard.
Re:You can't build cars like software (Score:5, Informative)
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no they aren't.
it took a pair of students to unveil the disasterjoke that was dieselgate
"RTOS" means nothing. An OS could be realtime and trash, or not realtime and decent.
but not anymore.
there is no software anymore that is free of serious bugs. It has nothing to do with programming quality. The ecosystem does not allow it.
The CPUs, languages and compilers we use, all of them are unverified and have many, many bugs. There is *one* C compiler that is formally verified as far as i know.
Fuck software, fuck an
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Android is used extensively in human machine interfaces (HMI). However, for control systems, you need a real-time OS.
My training is in mechanical engineering, so most of my software development experience has been on the job. I didn't really understand what a real-time OS meant until I found a horrible so
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Its a RTOS. In a car you cant just kill a thread and try again when that thread was supposed to apply the autobraking. An RTOS is essential.
Christ, that's embarrassing. You have no idea what you're talking about.
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Of course it's unacceptable to have a delay. Which is why you'd be daft to have the ABS system connected to the infotainment OS and its OTA updates...
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RTOS does not mean fast or without delay
it means that the correctness of a function/procedure/process is not determined by the value of the result alone, but by the combination of that and the when.
in other words, if a process returns "ok" but does not return it when it supposed to, it is considered a fault.
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RTOS does not mean fast or without delay
In fact, it does mean without delay.
The scheduler must operate with narrowly defined constraints; i.e., without extra delay (known as jitter).
it means that the correctness of a function/procedure/process is not determined by the value of the result alone, but by the combination of that and the when.
in other words, if a process returns "ok" but does not return it when it supposed to, it is considered a fault.
These are features of so-called "Hard" RTOS, not RTOS in general.
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ok let me use a different approach
an RTOS is not necessarily faster than a non-RTOS
the RTOS may allow a longer time of execution than a non-RTOS
_but_ the RTOS is guaranteed to work correctly, always, while the non-RTOS will be faster 99% of the time and lag behind 1% of the time. Percentages pulled out of my ass.
_that_ is what i meant when i said "RTOS does not mean fast or without delay"
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Does your computer have seat belts?
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You think the other auto makers won't be doing the same thing?
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You think the other auto makers won't be doing the same thing?
That is terrifying.
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You can't OTA patch bad panel gaps.
That being said, I think Teslas are cool. They're not suited for my style of road trips, to remote places without charging infrastructure, but they are compelling in many ways.
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Do you want Tesla to have the option of obsoleting your car via an OTA update? Do you want to be the one driving when an OTA update causes the car's software to crash? Brings a whole new meaning to "B
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Automobile software that controls safety-of-life functions is held to the same standards as e.g. mechanical engineering for braking systems, and unlike many consumer goods even the convenience functions can come under both DOT and FTC jurisdiction if they fail in Bad Ways(tm).
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Automobile software that controls safety-of-life functions is held to the same standards as e.g. mechanical engineering for braking systems,
That is blatantly not true on a Tesla. The "Autopilot", which is definitely presented by Tesla as a safety-of-life function in their marketing (car drives itself, you don't need to pay attention), is written like a mobile phone app: frequent updates, testing new features on the user base, etc. Microsoft Word is more stable and released to higher engineering standards than Tesla's "Autopilot".
Re:You can't build cars like software (Score:4, Informative)
Do you want to be the one driving when an OTA update causes the car's software to crash?
I'm pretty sure OTA updates don't get applied while the car is moving. Tesla's engineers aren't completely brain-dead.
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Tesla has used OTA update to slow down older cars too. They remotely crippled charging speeds and reduced the peak and total amounts of energy available from batteries, to avoid in-warranty failures and save themselves some cash.
The OTA updates to autopilot are the most dangerous. People have died because they were lulled into a false sense of security by it, and then an update suddenly changed the behaviour and it crashed.
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Clearly the entire industry should stick with the old way of doing things.
https://www.consumerreports.or... [consumerreports.org]
Spin it and cherry pick however you like but progress is being made and companies like Tesla, Waymo, etc are improving safety by minimizing the biggest problem, humans. Cars in general are safer than they have ever been.
aesthetics or reliability issues? (Score:2, Interesting)
Honestly, if I dropped $50k or whatever it is you can get the cheapest Tesla car for, I'd be more worried about the vehicle's post-warranty reliability. Things such as needing an expensive replacement battery, the controller circuitry blowing out, or those typical electrical gremlins that develop in old cars with electronic "everything" (you know the kind - where you try to roll down the windows and they get stuck, the HVAC controls get wonky, mirror adjustments stop working, power seat stops being a power
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As an European, poorly fitted parts is something I just attribute to American, French, UK and Italian work ethics. Something about not having the Lutheran work ethics, I guess.
All carmakers struggle with this (Score:2)
It's not just Tesla. The endless arms race for technology in cars has made it really difficult for automakers to build something that actually lasts a long time. Back in the mid 80's Mercedes built what many people believe to be the best car ever built - the W123 chassis. Those cars were built like tanks, especially the Turbo Diesels which could basically run forever. Then Toyota came along in the early 2000's and built incredibly reliable cars like the Camry and the Lexus LS sedans.
Since then I struggle to
No struggle because not a concern. (Score:2)
Few buyers keep new cars for 100K, most buyers like most people are tech-illiterate and leasing makes swapping rides painless. Used customers are not a consideration as they don't buy new cars.
Engineers born in a world of disposable equipment aren't equipped to care nor is management (modern manangement culture got us 737 MCAS).
BEV buyers are buying a fun toy and have enough disposable income not to care about long term reliability of something they'll (rightly!) sell and upgrade like a phone or notebook. U
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>Few buyers keep new cars for 100K
[Citation Needed]
Every new car I've bought I've driven until it dies, well over 100k in every case.
I can't be that unusual.
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Your example doesn't invalidate the premise. You could be one of the few. I would also be one of the few. I'm still only on my second new car, having bought my first one in 2001 and sold it in 2014. Most people I know who buy new cars don't keep them for anything like that length of time.
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"Few buyers keep new cars for 100K" - Perhaps but they are pissing away an awful lot of money in the process. Leasing can make sense if you can use it as a business write off - someone in Real Estate sales for example. Personally the only car I would even consider leasing is a BMW and only because all of the maintenace is included. Which, for a Beemer, is a key consideration given the horrific build quality and cheap plastics that disintegrate over time.
To each their own but both of my vehicles have well ov
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Well, everyone I have spoken to that has owned a BMW has never used the term "phenomenal build quality". I'll agree with you that they are fun to drive. I owned a 540i at one time and it was great to drive - unless it had yet another problem rendering it useless. That thing was plagued with electrical gremlins. A true love hate relationship.
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While that is one metric... few buyers would be able to swap cars at 30,000 miles if the life of the car was limited to 100,000 miles.
As for the GP’s distortions, there are plenty of Teslas that have gone more than 400,000 miles with limited repairs, and even a few that are apparently still on their original battery pack. The S/X MCU Touchscreen issue aside, there hasn’t been a whole lot of systemic complaints. That is no proof that it will remain that way, but Tesla more than others seems to
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One thing Tesla has shown, I think, is that the "common assumption" of using mileage as a measure of wear-and-tear really does not apply to their cars.
Are their cars subject to wear and tear? Of course. But it may not be as proportional to miles-driven as with most ICE cars.
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Why not?
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This would be the great irony of BEVs supposedly a savior to the environment, but if cars are treated like phones then the waste will be phenomenal. E-waste is already a massive and growing problem, I fear what will happen if we continue to build such large volumes of cars that are essentially just computers on wheels.
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That's all good. I would be concerned about the electronics most of all. We continue to make the additional components inside these cars more complicated which means more electronic waste. That's not something that EVs have created, but Tesla's in particular are taking us further in that direction.
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I would be concerned about the electronics most of all.
In that case, your focus should be the ROHS ruling banning leaded solder in electronics. As a result, we have literal mountains of electronics devices that have failed prematurely due to poor solder. See tin rot, tin whiskers etc in additional to mechanically much more brittle soldering connections and harder to repair products as the consequence. There's no point in engineering an electronical product to last, since it'd be crippled by the fundamental compound keeping it together anyway.
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EV batteries have a second life as storage for Windmills and solar. The metal is easily recycled. Tesla is stamping out large blocks so its very easy to breakdown a Tesla for melting.
Admittedly, it's great for the environment that the car can be responsibly scrapped when it's no longer cost effective to repair. It just makes me wonder what a future buy-here-pay-here car lot would look like when what was previously their source of inventory, is now worth more stripped down for recyclables.
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Those W123s are still rolling around as everyday vehicles in Africa, while those Toyotas are or will be dust long before the W123s stop running. Munro's approach is about how to do efficient engineering and therefore avoid extra cost as a manufacturer, not how to build the ultimately luxurious or durable vehicle.
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First off, I think the W124 was the best car ever built, slightly pipping the W123 which didn't handle as well. Second the Camry/Lexus is a feeble fragile box compared to either the W123 or the W124. I had a 500SEL W124 V8. Every day I would hit a raised railway crossing at high spe
Musk could learn from others - but he never does (Score:2)
Musk's disdain for how other people have solved any problem he chooses to work on is very well known.
He actively ignores previous work in the lines of business he gets into because he thinks his genius can solve all problems.
The problem of making cars with reliable fit and finish first time is well-understood. Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Honda - they all make new models of cars and they are well-made from the start. There are no problems with early versions being poorly assembled with large gaps, bad paint, and
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Well it wasn't so much Toyota won, but Mercedes lost. The W124 wasn't a bad followup, but by the late 90's the beancounters had taken over, and the quality of Mercedes vehicles was absolutely dreadful by the early 2000's.
Toyota kind of had the same problem, and by the early 2000's the Camry had seen several rounds of decontenting. Though unlike Mercedes, Toyota still had excellent reliability. So while the Toyota often felt cheap and chinsy, the mechanicals would still run forever.
Someone call an acting coach please (Score:5, Interesting)
I really appreciate the ability of both men to talk technical details on very interesting topics and I wish they would do it more.
But damn ...
Has there ever been two more awkward speakers in a conference room box? It's like the latest episode of Business Meeting From Hell.
Munroe can rarely get a whole sentence out of his mouth without interrupting himself with some new thought. And he will never span two sentences together and keep on the same topic or remember the point he was trying to make. Never. As for segues ... well never mind. Once in a while something informative comes out and I guess we best be content with that.
Elon .... has improved. Or at least he was on his best here because Munroe is so terrible. He constrained himself to following Munroe's maundering but when he was allowed to say anything it was on point and clearly with knowledge to back it up. He stutters less. Well done.
Re:Someone call an acting coach please (Score:4, Funny)
They should have invited Zuckerberg, make it a three way of awkwardness.
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Elon has clearly gone through training, and good for him. He used to have a crippling stuttering speech issue.
bad cars (Score:2)
How many cars with quality issues went out the door? Hell, I'll never buy a Tesla if getting a good one means understanding the production process and delivery pipeline so I can time my purchase just right. Am I buying a car or playing stocks?
Just read the Tesla forums (Score:4, Insightful)
Basically so many people have had problems with their Tesla that the Tesla service centers can't keep up. Bring in a car for service, and it might take WEEKS before they are able to get to your car and fix the problem. That would be unheard of for any other manufacturer. In the meantime, you will be WITHOUT a car, because the service center will be out of loaner cars.
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Bring in a car for service, and it might take WEEKS before they are able to get to your car and fix the problem.
So... this isn't how it works at all, in my experience (I'm on my second Model S -- first was a used 2014, the current one is a 2020 vehicle, purchased new).
First, you don't take your car in for service. You schedule service through the app. This is a trivial distinction, but I bring it up because your statement makes me wonder how much you've actually read about it.
Second, most service is not done at the service center, it's done at your home. The Tesla tech shows up at your house during the scheduled
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I just bought a Tesla recently after being very skeptical for years (read any old posts). They have a 4 year everything warranty and an 8 year battery warranty, which pretty much sold me.
They have fixed nearly everything on the Model 3... I don't have panel gap issues or any of the bugs that people had 3 years ago. The one place they need to improve on quality is paint, and the way they've improved all other options I believe they will get it right soon.
And with the other features of the car, it is still wo
liar? (Score:2)
All new cars... (Score:2)
All new car models have teething trouble, especially if they are introducing any new and innovative technology.
It's the cheaper vehicles, based on mature years-old technology as well as having less technology in general, that suffer the least problems.
This is the price you pay for being an early adopter, and this is what warranties are for as the problems should get fixed for free although you still suffer the inconvenience.
Musk acknowledges quality problems (Score:5, Informative)
This seems fairly consistent with the fact that Tesla consistently ranks near the bottom of consumer surveys [whatcar.com] and reports [usatoday.com] in terms of reliability.
It takes experience to mass-produce cars (Score:2)
Tesla will be making great cars, consistently, in a few years. Meanwhile... don't buy one?
I thought it was pump & dump. Not dump and pum (Score:2)
For a typical car company, it's reasonable to discuss the business's short comings and hopefully with a follow up on how to address those short comings.
For a company that build it's entire reputation on being perfect and mercilessly criticized the flaws of competitors, it's not possible for Tesla to admit to any weakness without completely deflating all hype around their brand.
Tesla Car (Score:2)
Tesla Car is like a Giant Smart Phone on Wheels;
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I'll buy, if I can swap the battery in under 60 seconds.
I wouldn't buy an EV with a battery that could be swapped in under 60 seconds for safety (think: collision) or security (think: stolen catalytic converters) reasons. I hope you get what you're looking for, but I suspect you're going to be pretty disappointed with the results if you do.
Re:Honesty... (Score:5, Insightful)
Probably you should have watched the video.
One of the most interesting topics they discussed was the decision to make the battery component in the car structural rather than as a dead weight.
Tesla's competitors take the approach of building up a car chassis/body, then sticking the batteries onto it -- a parasitic load which has to be isolated from shock and supported with yet more mass in components to do that. With Tesla the battery assembly is part of the body.
It was around this point when Musk mentioned that Material Science (engineering) was one of the more useful disciplines in their field of work.
But to your point -- I don't think changing the battery in 60 seconds is compatible with the efficiency and economy of a structural battery. And why would you want to do that anyway? The battery should last 500,000 miles or more.
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It was around this point when Musk mentioned that Material Science (engineering) was one of the more useful disciplines in their field of work.
And Munro remarked that the major automakers have decided to foolishly abandon any internal care for that field.
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If you could change the battery in 60 seconds, it would be faster than an ICE car to "refuel".
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That was an early feature, but the marketplace rejected it. People don't want to swap out "their" batteries.
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I'll buy, if I can swap the battery in under 60 seconds.
You know Tesla had a demo about this in 2013 (90 seconds) and even did a few swap stations, but it turned out people didn't want that.
https://www.tesla.com/videos/b... [tesla.com]
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Electric power train is inherently cheaper to build and operate than internal combustion. In the rather new future, if you own a car at all, it is likely to be electric.
Re:Honesty... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Honesty... (Score:5, Insightful)
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What planet are you on where a camry would depreciate 70% in five years and require $3000 of service? You MIGHT need to change the tires.
I figured it was worth checking on that, so I looked up a 2015 Camry LE. According to Google, the MSRP for that was $23,795. KBB says in "very good" condition, with the average amount of miles for a car that age (67,500), it would have a trade-in value ranging from $9,199 - $10,488. That's roughly 61% depreciation, going with the lower number (as car dealers usually lowball anyway).
The oil change interval for that car seems to be in the range of 3,000 - 5,000 miles for conventional oil, but for the sake
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I don't get this 3-5000 mile oil change thing.
Cars in this country have oil changes every 12000 to 20000 miles. My current car is 8 years old and going fine on its once-every-16000-miles oil change.
Why are cars from the same manufacturers suddenly so oil dependent in the US?
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What about the five year depreciation on a Tesla model 3 which was claimed to be only 50%? Seems to me like we don't know what the depreciation on those would be after five yers.
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What planet are you on where a camry would depreciate 70% in five years and require $3000 of service? You MIGHT need to change the tires.
I recently purchased a car, and considered a Model 3 as an option. People always overestimate the depreciation on Toyotas and Hondas. They don't lose 50% of their value the moment you drive off of the lot. It's a fairly linear trend for the first 10 years or so. If a 5 year old Camry was that cheap, I would have bought one in an instant.
Depreciation is always difficult to estimate, as you are basing it on past performance, and that doesn't always predict the future. However, I bet the Model 3 will de
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The data seem to indicate Model 3s hold value quite well:
https://insideevs.com/features... [insideevs.com]
It may drop with new features as you suggest, but there is also the fact that old cars get features via OTA (very rare for other cars) and that EVs tend to hold up well over time (Tesla's initial quality problems matters less for a vehicle you can inspect before buying).
I don't own an EV but my next car will be one. Right now that means a Tesla unless some competition really improves their game. I cons
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If you can afford an ICE you can afford an EV.
Your one use case does not apply to the rest of the universe. I'll give two examples:
Example 1: I own a boat. $60k vs $180k in my local dollars for the Tesla equivalent. It's no contest. Even if TCO turned out the same I don't have $160k cashflow to throw at a car.
Example 2: Anyone that buys a used car such as my kids. $4k will buy you a working car in decent condition compared to $30k+ for any used EV. $4k is cheaper than a battery pack so there's no way these will ever be price competitive.
So your cla
Re: Honesty... (Score:2)
Re: Honesty... (Score:2)
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it's likely there simply won't ever be EVs at that price point which still provide anything resembling a useful amount of range.
"Won't ever" is a pretty strong claim. Unlike ICE, battery technology is improving very quickly, which means that in a few years, the average new EV will have 400+ miles of range, and a few more years after that, those EVs will be high-mileage beater cars with "only" 200+ miles of range left in their "50% worn-out batteries", and will be sold for cheap due to the presence of inexpensive mass-produced newer EVs flooding the market. (of course, a few years after that, most cost-sensitive people won't bother
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I was a big fan right up until Musk outed himself as an anti-masker.
I'm curious about this - do you have a link? (I did some quick googling but didn't find anything that qualifies as him being an 'anti-masker' but very easily could have missed it.) Thanks!
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It's not literally anti-mask, it's this [vox.com] and this. [www.cbc.ca]
Worse, really.
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You have a silly point of view since plenty of other manufacturing places there were allowed to operate. If the pandemic measures are ok and worked in those other places then they'd work at Tesla. If I owned a plant I'd want to keep it open too by following the state's covid guidelines.
That's not being "antimask", that's having common sense.
It's stupid that so many small and medium businesses were shut down that could have followed the same guidelines certain privileged corporation's facilities could foll
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If the pandemic measures are ok and worked in those other places then they'd work at Tesla
Did you read the links? (no.) They didn't work.
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Tesla also has an asshole issue. I was a big fan right up until Musk outed himself as a [public health order scofflaw]. That is already plenty enough to keep Tesla out of my garage now and forever, then I started to notice the crappy paint, poor panel fit and who knows what else. Sealed the deal.
And yeah, I'm stupid for not seeing all this from way back. Reality distortion zone I guess.
Some misguided Musk fans on here tonight apparently. When somebody tells you who they are, listen to them.