Google Slams Microsoft for Trying 'To Break the Way the Open Web Works' (theverge.com) 94
Google and Microsoft engineers might collaborate on the Chromium browser code, but that hasn't stopped corporate politics between the pair. From a report: Google has launched a scathing attack on Microsoft today, accusing it of trying "to break the way the open web works in an effort to undercut a rival." Google is upset about what it believes is an attack by Microsoft to undermine the company's efforts to support journalism and publishers.
In January, Google threatened to remove its search engine from Australia, in response to a law that would force Google to pay news publishers for their content. Australia passed the law in February, just days after Google caved and cut a deal with News Corp. and other publishers that ensured its services continue to be available in Australia. In the middle of all of this, Microsoft was very public about its support of Australia's new law, and it even teamed up with European publishers to call for online platforms to reach deals to pay news outlets for content. Google isn't happy about Microsoft getting involved and this is the first big public spat we've seen since the Scroogled era. "They are now making self-serving claims and are even willing to break the way the open web works in an effort to undercut a rival," says Kent Walker, Google's head of global affairs, in a blog post. "This latest attack marks a return to Microsoft's longtime practices. Walker links to the Wikipedia entry for Fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD), and accuses Microsoft of muddying the waters to distract from recent security issues."
"It's no coincidence that Microsoft's newfound interest in attacking us comes on the heels of the SolarWinds attack and at a moment when they've allowed tens of thousands of their customers ... to be actively hacked via major Microsoft vulnerabilities," says Walker. "Microsoft was warned about the vulnerabilities in their system, knew they were being exploited, and are now doing damage control while their customers scramble to pick up the pieces from what has been dubbed the Great Email Robbery. So maybe it's not surprising to see them dusting off the old diversionary Scroogled playbook."
In January, Google threatened to remove its search engine from Australia, in response to a law that would force Google to pay news publishers for their content. Australia passed the law in February, just days after Google caved and cut a deal with News Corp. and other publishers that ensured its services continue to be available in Australia. In the middle of all of this, Microsoft was very public about its support of Australia's new law, and it even teamed up with European publishers to call for online platforms to reach deals to pay news outlets for content. Google isn't happy about Microsoft getting involved and this is the first big public spat we've seen since the Scroogled era. "They are now making self-serving claims and are even willing to break the way the open web works in an effort to undercut a rival," says Kent Walker, Google's head of global affairs, in a blog post. "This latest attack marks a return to Microsoft's longtime practices. Walker links to the Wikipedia entry for Fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD), and accuses Microsoft of muddying the waters to distract from recent security issues."
"It's no coincidence that Microsoft's newfound interest in attacking us comes on the heels of the SolarWinds attack and at a moment when they've allowed tens of thousands of their customers ... to be actively hacked via major Microsoft vulnerabilities," says Walker. "Microsoft was warned about the vulnerabilities in their system, knew they were being exploited, and are now doing damage control while their customers scramble to pick up the pieces from what has been dubbed the Great Email Robbery. So maybe it's not surprising to see them dusting off the old diversionary Scroogled playbook."
Microsoft vulnerabilities? (Score:2, Insightful)
"the SolarWinds attack and at a moment when they've allowed tens of thousands of their customers ... to be actively hacked via major Microsoft vulnerabilities,"
sounds like a 3rd parties vulnerabilities to me.
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CISA incident response investigations have identified that initial access in some cases was obtained by password guessing, password spraying, and inappropriately secured administrative credentials accessible via external remote access services,” reads the activity alert updated Wednesday.
“CISA has observed the threat actor adding authentication credentials, in the form of assigning tokens
Claims FUD. Proceeds to spread FUD (Score:2)
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He is talking about CVE-2021-26855, CVE-2021-26857, CVE-2021-26858, and CVE-2021-27065 -- vulnerabilities in Microsoft Exchange Server.
What is the Product? (Score:5, Insightful)
Company who sees you as the product is upset a company that doesn't need you as the product is disrupting their business by offering an alternative that lessens your value as a product.
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Aaahhahahahahh ain't that the truth.... as someone once said, "Microsoft follows standards like fish follow migrating caribou". It's all just pure hubris and chutzpah. Lots of heat, very little light.
Re:What is the Product? (Score:5, Informative)
Back in the 90's and early 2000s. Now Google either decides what features they want regardless of standards (e.g. adding draft features they want to Chrome before they become standards or removing things they don't want.) or completely works around them (e.g. AMP). Microsoft hasn't played that game in a while. Not since the latest CEO took over. Hell, their selling point for non-Chromium Edge was "slavish devotion to the standards even when they are stupid"
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Chromium Edge showed just how bad Edge was, just as Edge showed just how bad IE was. But we're all going to be suffering for Microsoft letting go of their own rendering engine with Edge. Multiple implementations are the only way to make open standards work. Otherwise you're coding to quirks instead of standards.
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But if everyone is coding to the exact same quirks then the quirks are effectively standard. 8^)
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Up until Chromium Edge, any competent web developer targets and tests with Chrome/Safari (Webkit/KHTML derived), Firefox, and IE or Edge at a minimum. Firefox has lost a ton of marketshare, so now pretty much everything shares the KHTML/Webkit heritage.
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Meanwhile the real problem for all of us is all those hidden tracking companies with less than honorable goals. OK, Google do track us, so do Microsoft but at least we know those beasts somewhat.
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Imagine taking either side in a squabble between kazillion dollar big tech corporations.
These are a few of my least favorite things (Score:1)
Mod parent up as insightful, but I still wanted to change the Subject to attempt a joke. Too bad you missed FP. (For what shall it profit AC to gain the FP when AC has no soul to lose? You know, like it says in the Bible. Gospel of Mark, eh? (Now if we can just figure out Mark's surname we'll know who AC is! (But who cares?)))
I kind of wish you'd extended your insights towards solutions, but for now I feel behoven to stay on joke. Unfortunately I lack the poetic capacity to rewrite the song around the googl
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Got the next phrase: "When my feelings don't compute."
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Re: What is the Product? (Score:1)
Re:What is the Product? (Score:4, Insightful)
a company that doesn't need you as the product
You don't think Microsoft wants to collect data on you from their search engine? That's quite generous of you.
That’s really rich from Google (Score:5, Insightful)
Google has launched a scathing attack on Microsoft today, accusing it of trying "to break the way the open web works in an effort to undercut a rival."
That’s really rich coming from a company that’s been trying to shove things like AMP (and whatever replacement for cookies they’ll end up controlling) down everyone’s throat.
Re:That's really rich from Google (Score:5, Interesting)
> that's been trying to shove things like AMP
AMP is the first thing I thought of too.
The second thing I thought of is their attempts to censor the likes of Alex Jones, Parler, or Anna Khachiyan's dirtbag-left Red Scare, both from Search and Play. Cry me a river about "open web".
You won't find me defending Microsoft, but whom have they deplatformed exactly?
Re:That’s really rich from Google (Score:4, Insightful)
They also remove things from existing web standards in Chrome or add a draft standard then immediately implement it in Chrome to silence any conversation about it.
Re:That’s really rich from Google (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, good grief - when it comes to Chrome, Google has repeatedly followed Microsoft's old IE 6 playbook.
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Is it google's fault, though, that even "tech savvy" migrated to chrome from firefox?
There is no reason to use chrome when Firefox is more than adequate. I mean a lot of people complained about the "dumbing down" of firefox... and they went with...chrome? WTF man?
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Did Tech Savvy people move to Chrome from Firefox? It's hard because there used to be at least four major providerd (IE, WebKit, Chrome, FireFox) and minor ones (Opera, etc.). Now there is Chromium-based, FireFox and WebKit (OSX only).
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I've moved away from Chrome, back to Firefox. The reason developers moved to Chrome was because of the dev tools.
Now Firefox is better than Chrome in basically every way.
Re:That’s really rich from Google (Score:4, Insightful)
Google has launched a scathing attack on Microsoft today, accusing it of trying "to break the way the open web works in an effort to undercut a rival."
That’s really rich coming from a company that’s been trying to shove things like AMP (and whatever replacement for cookies they’ll end up controlling) down everyone’s throat.
They noticed that public dishonesty and even direct lying works. Hence they are doing it.
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Google isn't the Open Web (Score:3, Insightful)
Google Collects data from the Open Web then via with its secret algorithms it will determine what to show what not to show, and often give a response to the question based on the information it has collected. All while giving you ad's that the advertisers pay to google for you to see.
Bypassing the Journalist who had done the real work and fact finding, and posting it on their companies websites, which they would want to show their ads for revenue.
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Could you clarify what you mean by "Open Web" in this context? My interpretation is suspect, notwithstanding this reply.
So I'm going to stay with your Subject though I think you've muddled the issue. Yes, the google collects public data about people from the "Open Web", but it collects personal data from many sources. I think the secret sauce is actually in the correlation of the data from many sources to develop complicated and multidimensional models of individual persons. Then the money comes from sellin
Google is breaking the Internet with AMP (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: Google is breaking the Internet with AMP (Score:3, Interesting)
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That's a moot point. DNS is not going anywhere. A person that tweaks the hosts file can also tweak the browser setting that forces the browser to use the traditional DNS and not DoH.
You're not obligated to use Chrome either. You can still use Firefox where you can decide to use DNS or DoH.
Re: Google is breaking the Internet with AMP (Score:1)
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So what's your point? Why are you obsessed with google tracking other people? Everyone acts like an idiot about tracking. Everyone is OFFENDED that google is tracking them. Everyone KNOWS google is tracking them... And yet, they continue to use google, their services, and happily use their browser too. And don't do shit about not being tracked. They don't use browsers with "do not track" (lol sure wink wink i won't track you i promise) enabled, they don't even google (lol) how not to be tracked.
They even co
Re: Google is breaking the Internet with AMP (Score:2)
... and they keep pushing native apps on us on android when their PWAs should work just fine. I've been trying to get their YouTube PWA working for a long time, but they don't seem to serve it to android, even though my phone isn't Google Android and so their native app won't work. ...and the PiTA that is maps.google.com, which works just fine on desktop, but seems completely disabled on Android, in favour of their native app.
Now THAT is what I call "breaking the Web".
Microsoft undercutting rivals—you don't say (Score:2, Funny)
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I, too, remember:
Embrace
Extend
Extinguish.
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I remember it too. But really, who's doing it now?
Microsoft is still doing it, valve, MS and the rest have won the game, they've literally stolen all PC games and now have "accounts" and logons in them, they are slowly drowing everyone in stolen software as a service crap, Windows 10 has introduced a new executable model for exe's that has drm inside naturally which they are going to use to further clamp down on piracy.
Irdeto and denuvo are now infecting everything. All because the public got internet and doesn't understand not to buy client-server softwa
Best summary of the article... (Score:5, Insightful)
Pot, meet kettle. Yes, you are both colored black.
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Pot, meet kettle. Yes, you are both colored black.
Hypocrites, much like Narcissists, are lauded and rewarded these days.
In other words you are 110% correct, but no one gives a shit. In fact, your "enemy", hates you for your opinion on this.
Google, knows this, which is why they don't give a shit about pots or kettles.
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Pot, meet kettle. Yes, you are both colored black.
Hypocrites, much like Narcissists, are lauded and rewarded these days.
Very true. Unfortunately one of the signs of a society in decline.
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On a related note, does anyone have a saved copy of the "London Stock Exchange chooses Microsoft over Linux" advertisements? I'd like to be able to refer to that when talking to people aboout advertising claims.
*grabs popcorn* (Score:2)
Whenever the pot and kettle want to fight amongst themselves, we usually win. In the meantime, it makes for some great entertainment.
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Yeah, very true, except for the case of politics. Then we all lose, and get all pissed.
Just let the problem sort itself out (Score:3)
Microsoft will go running for the hills once non-news publishers raise the obvious question: "why do glorified, salaried bloggers get paid for their content, but I don't?"
That'll be most interesting because there is far more originality and value in much of the content that's not getting monetized under this "will somebody please think of the professional bloggers I mean journalists" policy. Stuff like photos, music, videos, etc. that are not just pasting a few things together and claiming a new work which is what most professional bloggers do for their media employers.
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The problem is that Google is copying all the content from the news publishers and synopsizing it. Therefore no one needs to follow the links to the news agencies. I'm all in favor of making Google have to pay or just revert back to just linking to sites instead of stealing their information.
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Since most people barely read past the headlines, that's nearly copying the whole thing.
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At google.com. Search for a news story. Then click the news button. You get the first paragraph of each story.
I'm not sure what "proper crediting" has to do with anything. The point is that the money isn't flowing. Look, it would be neat if we had a better way of encouraging and funding art/journalism/science than IP rights, but we don't. That means credit is not enough.
Non sequitur (Score:5, Funny)
"It's no coincidence that Microsoft's newfound interest in attacking us comes on the heels of the SolarWinds attack and at a moment when they've allowed tens of thousands of their customers ... to be actively hacked via major Microsoft vulnerabilities,"
ok, I agree, but it doesn't follow that Microsoft was trying to make the web less open. In fact, the Solarwinds attack was technically making the Internet more open.
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I was going to ask that too, but I couldn't let it get in the way of a good joke.
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You Jest but a lot of the recent hacking has been by China and Russia to find data on the US vaccines
How could you possibly know that?
Re: Non sequitur (Score:2)
... I can think of one way.
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I see that domain is for sale, there is no content there. Perhaps you are trying to boost sales?
Logic not required when addressing the public? (Score:2)
Please don't stop us from continuing to rape the finances of the entire journalism industry, Microsoft has bad code!
Wait, what? What does standards have to do with open web anyway? And what does that have to do with Google's business standards? Because after over a decade of hollowing out local news, they decided to renegotiate? Not sure how that is relevant. I'm not even sure web standards in a technical sense are even an issue.... Google never bothers supporting the statement.
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Please don't stop us from continuing to rape the finances of the entire journalism industry, Microsoft has bad code!
How is that exactly? By sending them customers and providing an easy way to monetize those customers? I will let you in on a little secret, the fall of the media industry has 0% to do with Google and headlines. It was Craigslist (and later others) who took the classifieds revenue from the newspapers that killed them. The ad revenue from the websites of the newspapers is far more than the ad revenue from print ads ever made. No industry was in a better position to capitalize on the Internet than the med
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Even assuming AdWords is a net win for journalists, despite the evidence of reduced staff, reduced quality, lack of real local reporting and literally businesses shutting down, and actual economic studies tying the trend to AdWords. Ignoring all that, it still doesn't follow that Google has any more authority over "The way the open web works" than Microsoft. Everyone in the industry knows they're both constantly trying to break other browsers and make standards that align with their business interests. It'
Google complains? (Score:2)
Hey Google! People who live in glass houses and all that.
IMHO, you have more damage to the operation of the internet than anyone else including Microsoft and that's saying something.
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> Hey Google! People who live in glass houses and all that.
It's perfectly fine to throw stones, as long as the glass is bulletproof.
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It's not like google isn't doing the same shit by constantly making changes to youtube to make it run worse in non-chromium based browsers.
Oh, so that’s what’s happening?
Irony (Score:3)
The irony of Google accusing someone else of wanting to break the open web is breathtaking.
Kettle, Pot, Pettle, Kot (Score:1)
Indeed! [slashdot.org]
It's like two slimy politicians calling each other liars in a debate. They are BOTH slimebags and liars.
Google actually means (Score:2)
break the open web in the way we want it to work for our analytics
Roast; nothing of substance (Score:2)
Meh, this is one shitty company roasting another shitty company.
You mean how YouTube (Score:2)
Not even a sliver (Score:2)
What a vicious underhanded blow to poor old Google who is just trying to save the "open web". How can the open web, or whatever, survive if google search engine marketshare dips below 92%? If it got a bit lower, google might not be able to force amp links on everyone. And if Bing managed to get 3% marketshare things could really take a turn for the worse, people might even start giving half a shit about other search engines!
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While I agree that Google's intention is obviously not to preserve the open web, it's not to preserve search engine marketshare either. It's to protect profits by not having to pay journalists for news that gets indexed in the search listing.
On the other hand, these "journalists" (if you can even call most of them that) also seem to forget that without Google and other search engines, they might not get eyes on their articles in the first place.
Google could easily have just said fuck it and stopped indexin
In other news... (Score:2)
Who (Score:1)
Google, news writers, and news readers (Score:3)
"They are now making self-serving claims and are even willing to break the way the open web works in an effort to undercut a rival." Google is not unique is this perspective, i.e., the current situation overwhelmingly benefits me financially, so I want it to stay that way. That things currently "work" depends on which beneficiary we're talking about. Google obviously benefits now. If Google news search and aggregation went away, the desire to read about news doesn't diminish at all, so readers would find another way to find the news. With such a change, there would be winners and losers among the news writers, but the only obvious loser would be Google.
News Corp Subsidy economically wrong (Score:2)
I don't like Microsoft, Google or Facebook. However the whole lets get facebook and google to subsidize content creators is wrong. It has only occurred in Australia because of the dominant position of New Corp and cronies is wrong.
It's a bit like the requiring a man with a flag to walk in front of cars because they frightened horses.
what a joke (Score:2)
Oh hell, why not (Score:2)
In January, Google threatened to remove its search engine from Australia, in response to a law that would force Google to pay news publishers for their content. ...
" Google is upset about what it believes is an attack by Microsoft to undermine the company's efforts to support journalism and publishers.
Anyone know where sincerity’s gravestone is located? I’d like to pay my respects.
calm down ffs (Score:2)
Google Pot/Kettle (Score:2)
I have no sympathy for google ever since they bought out Nest and then made all the Nest products incompatible with all the open APIs they already supported like IFTT.
Pot meet kettle (Score:2)
Enough said. Blah, blah, lameness filter. Blah.
The forest ecosystem (Score:1)
Google has the sole right to break internet (Score:2)
Nobody else is allowed to do it.
Grand, Mr. Google... (Score:1)
Since you are the ones turning the open web into your monopoly as we speak...
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I disagree with paying the media (Score:2)
I don't think Google should have to pay the media for news just because they link to it - should be thought of as a symbiotic relationship.
What I'm not cool with is the assertions they're making against Microsoft regarding the open web - given their own attempts at shaping it (and funneling user data into) themselves. I'm well aware of what MS did with IE back in the day, but that's not what they're doing now with their new Edge.