China Erasing H&M from Internet Amid Xinjiang Backlash (apnews.com) 105
H&M disappeared from the internet in China as the government raised pressure on shoe and clothing brands and announced sanctions Friday against British officials in a spiraling fight over complaints of abuses in the Xinjiang region. From a report: H&M products were missing from major e-commerce platforms including Alibaba and JD.com following calls by state media for a boycott over the Swedish retailer's decision to stop buying cotton from Xinjiang. That hurts H&M's ability to reach customers in a country where more than a fifth of shopping is online. Shockwaves spread to other brands as dozens of celebrities called off endorsement deals with Nike, Adidas, Burberry, Uniqlo and Lacoste after state media criticized the brands for expressing concern about Xinjiang. Brands are struggling to respond to pressure abroad to distance themselves from abuses without triggering Chinese retaliation and losing access to one of the biggest and fastest-growing markets. That pressure is rising as human rights activists are lobbying sponsors to pull out of the Beijing Winter Olympics planned for February 2022. Tencent, which operates games and the popular WeChat message service, announced it was removing Burberry-designed costumes from a popular mobile phone game.
Dose of reality for Western companies (Score:5, Insightful)
Western companies should realize that although the Chinese market looks attractive, China is not a good place to do business in. It's way too risky. I would like to see companies from democratic countries pull out of China, and I'd also like to see robust trade sanctions against China for its genodical policies.
Re:Dose of reality for Western companies (Score:5, Insightful)
I would like to see companies from democratic countries pull out of China, and I'd also like to see robust trade sanctions against China for its genodical policies.
All you need is the latter to get the former, because the corporations doing business with China aren't doing it for fun.
Risk of doing business (Score:2)
Re: Risk of doing business (Score:1)
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Look at the companies listed in TFS.
They are all fashion brands. So the Chinese give us hard currency for bling that is worthless except for the branding.
The threat of an embargo of Burberry frocks and Gucci handbags isn't going to intimidate the CCP.
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I won't completely disagree with you that "fashion" doesn't add a lot of value (in my opinion). However, there still is value in good design (whether it is computer code or clothing). And often the designer brands, in addition to "just" being fashion, also tend to use higher-quality materials. This does have value - they tend to last longer, look nicer, feel nicer, etc. I am not saying it is necessarily worth it, but don't completely dismiss it as just bling. (Worth it is of course entirely dependent upon w
Good luck with that (Score:2)
Money is Power. Wealth inequality isn't just a woke SJW culture war thing. It's a power dynamic. Right now we've got about 45% of the population that believes strict hierarchies with power flowing down from the top are a good thing. If it hit's 51% Democracy ends.
The 55% who still believe in democracy need to start convincing the 45% who don't, because that 45% is hard at work trying to convince us to le
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Won't happen. The Chinese market is too valuable, and Western companies are so dependent on China for supply that trade sanctions would probably hurt us more than them. Well, no probably about it, Trump tried and proved it.
All a trade war will do is divide the world up into factions who trade with one side or the other. I wouldn't rely on countries picking us over China either, they don't really care about genocide when it comes down to it and see China as stable and non-interfering. Contrast with the US wh
Re:Dose of reality for Western companies (Score:5, Insightful)
All a trade war will do is divide the world up into factions who trade with one side or the other.
I would argue that is better than being a party to Chinese evil. I am perfectly happy bifurcating the world into those willing to profit by genocide and those that are not. We will know who the good societies and legitimately valuable cultures are after that and which are not. We just need to avoid the 'he's a son of bitch but he's our son of bitch trap' If you are murdering innocent people for the religious beliefs you are out of the club full stop.
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If you are murdering innocent people for the religious beliefs you are out of the club full stop.
Except, apparently, if you're Saudi Arabia...
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Except, apparently, if you're Saudi Arabia...
To be fair, Saudi Arabia murders plenty of people for non-religious reasons as well.
For instance, Khashoggi's murder and dismemberment were not related to religion.
Khashoggi (Score:1)
His murder was, MOST LIKELY, political in nature as he was acting as an agent provocateur for Qatar against the House of Saud. I don't think the Saudis cared to much about his support of ISIS, Hamas, The Muslim Brotherhood , Hezbollah, or even that he wrote for the Washington Post, but acting as an agent of Qatar to personally attack the family was a no no.
They no no hard in the middle east.
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Agree, but I would say it's China that has walled themselves off with the Great Firewall and human rights and treaty abuses. We'd be not so much cutting them off as simply living according to the limitations they have placed on themselves.
And Israel [Re:Dose of reality for Western com (Score:2)
Does this include sanctioning Israel for swiping land? Talk about giving jerks a green light.
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I would argue that is better than being a party to Chinese evil.
In 1648, the Peace of Westphalia [wikipedia.org] established the principle that countries should not interfere in each other's internal affairs.
If you want to tear up that model, perhaps you should learn what the world was like before it was enacted. It was not a better place.
You may be sympathetic to the Uyghurs' plight, but there are many more injustices in the world, and some are worse. Once you head down the path of trying to "fix" other countries, there will be calls for interference on every other issue as well.
I am perfectly happy bifurcating the world into those willing to profit by genocide and those that are not.
"Bi
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I'd argue it's better to be engaging. Often the lure of Western freedoms and lifestyles is a catalyst for change. If you look at regimes like NK and the old USSR, and to an extent modern China, they are keen to point out how awful things are in the West because they don't want their citizens getting ideas about how things could be if they had a bit more freedom and democracy.
I say to an extent because China has learned from other's mistakes and embraced capitalism to give people many of the trappings of a W
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We've been trying that since 1990. All it has done is make China rich. It's not working.
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We've been trying that since 1990. All it has done is make China rich. It's not working.
We tried economic isolation with NK and Cuba. That didn't work either.
Perhaps the rest of the world just doesn't want white people to "fix" their countries for them.
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I'm sure they don't, but helping pay for them to get stronger isn't the answer.
Re:Dose of reality for Western companies (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's please not forget that the problem is not Chinese culture, it is the current Chinese government.
Re:Dose of reality for Western companies (Score:4, Insightful)
Let's please not forget that the problem is not Chinese culture, it is the current Chinese government.
Indeed. Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore are also based on Chinese culture. Democracy works in Taiwan, was working in HK before the CCP gutted it, and sorta works in Singapore.
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Re: Dose of reality for Western companies (Score:1)
Translation: I'll be 15 next month, yay
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Cool. Let me know when we catch up to the civilian death toll inflicted in Korea by the Chinese.
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Well, no probably about it, Trump tried and proved it.
He tried it, and despite the Cassandras, the economy was doing better and better until covid (ironically, also from China) hit.
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True but there is limited, if any, evidence that his China trade policy had anything to do with it. Very causation/correlation on that.
If anything it may turn out to be that covid simply masked the negative effects of that policy or it may have simply ended up being masked by an expected economic correction which we were due for anyway and was already becoming visible in January 2020.
Trumps fatal flaw in his China policy was going at them unilaterally. The US is not so huge that we can affect China on our
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COVID has fucked things far worse than people realize. A lot of small businesses have been completely destroyed as a result. At some point we're going to see a rust belt effect crop up and a
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First, Trump inherited an economy that was already growing strongly. It isn't clear how much his policies help or hurt. Just look at the graphs of unemployment before/after Trump. The trend didn't change much (it got better under Trump but it was strongly trending better when he took office).
Next, a lot of what happened under Trump was due to borrowed money. Large tax cuts with no spending cuts. So if the government spends a lot more than it brings in and just borrows it, it will of course fuel economic gro
Re:Dose of reality for Western companies (Score:5, Insightful)
In the long run, being dependent on China will leave us worse off. The longer we have to prepare for independence from China, the better.
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No mod points today - mod parent up please.
Being dependent on China for either sales or supplies is risky. If the CPC or Xi Jinping decide that they do not like you things will become hard (maybe you said the wrong thing or do not kowtow to their world view). If you sell into China you could lose many sales. If your product depends on China you would lose all your sales if you cannot make any product.
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Historically that has tended not to be the case. As economies became more dependent on each other it became harder for them to fight, both militarily and in terms of trade wars. Trade deals get done, the situation gets fairer for everyone and we all prosper.
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It depends on the goal.
If the goal is 'transforming resources into goods in the most efficient way possible no matter what', then absolutely.
If the goal is to create a trade relationship where both parties value it so much they avoid military conflict with each other, then sure.
If the goal starts getting conditions like "we don't want to enable human rights abuses" and other things like that, then it gets to be a more nuanced discussion.
Free trade can also undermine labor laws. If one nation decides they wo
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The Chinese market is large, and attractive. From a pure business statement its engage or get left behind others who will. THIS is a legitimate place for government intervention.
If as a society we decide atrocities of the Chinese government are unacceptable government should prevent EVERYONE from doing business there. I don't think its fair to expect any one organization to forgo the Chinese market given they can be just undercut for doing so. Its the great shame or nation right now that we are 'tolerating
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Companies will never do it on their own. If one company pulls out of the Chinese market that just leaves more market share and profits for their competitors. What you need is for Biden to follow through on his promise to be tougher on China and built on the work of the last admin.
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"built on the work of the last admin." What? Like paying U.S. farmers for the produce they could no longer send to China?
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The only people benefiting from paying the lowest wages is always the share-holders. China is a nasty system with complete disregard for workers. If all of a sudden demand for textiles workers outside of china goes up then hopefully wages for those workers will also go up. We pay $10 - $100 - $1000+ for a clothing item, the worker gets literally a few cents for putting that item together.
Funny isn't it that all new trade deals are about screwing over consumers and workers and taking government out of the e
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Well the consumer of said product is benefitting too because the prices are lowered than the competition. Also, the owners get money which they either reinvest or store in bank. In turn, the bank gives out loans for things like construction and production which increased global output and thereby quality of life.
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Wrong, consumers don't benefit, are Nike shoes cheap? are Burberry clothes cheap? A Nike pair of shoes costs around $100 in the shop, the factory worker gets around 10c, if the factory worker made the shoes for free you wouldn't notice a price different and if the factory workers wages were increased 10-fold then you also wouldn't notice the difference.
The price you pay for clothes aside from perhaps the very cheapest multi-
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Did you not read my last two sentences?
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Yes and it's still a complete fantasy, poor people struggling to feed their family in country B do not get a better quality of life because of low pay, the product is not cheaper, there is no incentive to invest in better production etc, what actually happens is some rich person in another country gets a slightly higher dividend payout and a CEO gets a larger bonus.
What you're describing is trickle down economics and trickle down economics is complete bullshit as is evidenced by the last 3 decades of poor p
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China runs an export surplus and still makes excuses to ban outside products. They should be doing the opposite, but old habits are hard to kill. They got big from exports and are addicted to their export engine. I agree that trade deficit countries should ban together to put some teeth into fighting back.
Cheap labor makes the profit margins so high (Score:2)
As others have pointed out Capitalism didn't bring Freedom to China, it's bringing Chinese Authoritarianism to the rest of the world. Our rights are being sold out for access to cheap labor and emerging markets.
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And many Han Chinese think the ethnicities need cleansing. See Tibet.
People might disagree on what is "right" (Score:2)
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From what I've read, "enslavement of those who refuse to change" should be replaced with "extermination of an ethnic group"....
About Time (Score:5, Insightful)
Chinas local market is much more fragile that people believe, They need the west more than we need them. About time western companies lived up to their moral responsabilities and pulled out of china
Re:About Time (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a job for politicians, who set the policies for the free west with respect to dictatorships.
For decades, the policy has been to be open economically, under the idea that growing wealth among the populace there would soften dictatorship and loosen its control.
Thanks to their panopticons and, now, a Black Mirror like government-controlled social credit system, where, if you displease the king, you are knocked down and cannot rent, get loans, or even get on a bus, that path forward is in question.
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This is a job for politicians, who set the policies for the free west with respect to dictatorships.
No - this is a job for the public to instruct their politicians about what policies they demand with respect to dictatorships.
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Unfortunately, dictatorships are super popular right now. We almost got our own on January 6! Maybe next election they can make it a permanent reality.
I, for one, have always loved American Big Brother better than Chinese Big Brother or British Big Brother or Russian Big Brother. Don't you, comrade? Don't you love Trump? Forever?
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They need the west more than we need them. About time western companies lived up to their moral responsabilities and pulled out of china.
That is incredibly ignorant. The problem with the idea of "need the west more than we need them" is like comparing death by hanging to death by firing squad. Neither is a good outcome. China may be more dependent on the west, but let's not kid ourselves that our economies are insanely intertangled and simply pulling out is woefully irresponsible.
One word comes to mind (Score:4, Insightful)
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China openly admits that it is running re-education camps for Uighurs. This alone violates the UN human rights declaration, regardless of whatever other dark things may or may not be happening there.
Yet somehow they're allowed to remain in the UN...
I can imagine the news headline (Score:2)
Yet somehow they're allowed to remain in the UN...
UN resolution #666 to have China kicked out of the UN...Vetoed by China.
Damn, so close.
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So in your view, there is nothing to be done but be cowed by the autocrats in China. Thanks for at least contributing your opinion...
Re: Virtue signaling is really just brand capitali (Score:2)
> morally problematic Xinjiang cotton
Alledgedly.
Re: Virtue signaling is really just brand capitali (Score:1)
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To be instantly locked out like this from a big market probably surprised them.
To be instantly locked out, 5 months after the announcement. Isn't very surprising. China likes to make a big fuss about things for their domestic audience when they feel under pressure. Like they feel now due to the recent meetings with America, and the recent sanctions from Europe.
A lot of these kinds of things only become outrageous and extremely important well after the fact. When they need a distraction from something else.
bastards! (Score:2, Insightful)
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Good thing nobody over here can erase you from the internet ... oh, wait.
Who are you thinking of? Who has been prevented by the government from setting up a server, buying a domain name and saying whatever they like on their website?
Re:bastards! (Score:5, Insightful)
We're counting facebook and twitter as "the internet" now?
Gotta hand it to China... (Score:5, Funny)
they really take Cancel Culture to the next level. ;)
Free labor (Score:5, Interesting)
Free human or even animal labor, aka slavery is great to build up an economy. I mean many countries became dignified "first world" countries due to free labor. After that, the population can within a few generations become liberal/free thinking and rail against owning humans as property.
I mean, many European countries got free labor in the Americas and their colonies. Think about it, if you give even the poorest country in the world 200 years of free labor .. you don't think they would be impressive? I mean, look at Dubai, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar, etc. .. they have had essentially free labor too for just 50 years .. they dug up oil, for nearly free, and wisely sold it high so then they can fund cheap labor from Africa and elsewhere to build their skyscrapers and housing.
1000 years ago, aliens would have objectively considered China to be the wealthiest country.
So China might again, in 50 years become the world's wealthiest .. then their population could become liberals and fight with some poorer countries about human rights violations.
Humans are fucked as a species, a majority of humans can only be "good" when we they are not facing resource competition or shortage. Therefore the only solution is free labor from robots. Tax that. Each person gets their name on a robot in a factory or construction site and gets the robot's salary.
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You cannot try to deduce a western liberal outcome for China. China has fundamentally different values. If you think this is going to happen in China, you are sadly mistaken. Westerners have been thinking along this line for a long time - if we trade with them, open the doors to western education, etc. they will become more westernized and eventually change their ways. Nope. Not going to happen. Unless there is a civil war in China (very unlikely as they control how you think), or we in the west decide to i
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How long have we been trying it? It takes a minimum of 100 years (3 to 4 generations). I mean, black people couldn't even ride in the front of a bus in the South until 100 years after slavery had ended. And now with increased life expectancy the generational turnover is even higher. But it does happen. Japan went from being a kamikaze imperialistic nation to, well I dunno .. the big producers of anime and hentai. It won't happen overnight. The fact that China has to keep jailing dissidents tells you somethi
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Dude, you're on crack. The US economy really started growing once it gave up slaves.
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By the time slavery ended, the West was in a good position in terms of industry and manufacturing. Do you think there was zero production output from the millions of slaves? That slaving wasn't done for economic reasons? Is that what you want to argue?
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That slaving wasn't done for economic reasons? Is that what you want to argue?
No, I want to argue that you are an ignorant slut. Furthermore, your idea that an economy can only grow with slave labor is entirely dumb and I have no idea how you could possibly come up with that idea. Seriously? What evidence led you to that conclusion?
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Well, one is the fact that humans won't work unless forced to and will keep wanting higher and higher salaries. Would you come clean my building's toilets for free? Tell me, what would drive you to clean someone's toilet if not your circumstances? Or build me a house for no cost? No, you want money. You will only do it if you badly need money. Human greed, after all, is endless and compelling. You will always want a better car, a better house, better vacations. Nobody's happy with a bicycle or cheap car and
Surprized by Xi's Action (Score:1)
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We are lucky to get the 8th bit. It's all good, though, we can communicate.
Ever Given (Score:2)
Re: Ever Given (Score:2)
China... Yup, Taiwan.
China is (a) natural hegemon of Asia (Score:2)
China sees itself as the natural hegemon of Asia (a perfectly logical goal) and is working to make it happen.
It will probably succeed because its opponents are greedy above all, ideologically indifferent (the first Cold War is long dead and the participants are in nursing homes), and modern businesses are obliged to stockholders more than nations in this post-ideological (for everyone but Beijing) world.
China knows how far it can push and that's quite a long way. I rather enjoy seeing China flout the rule
Good. (Score:2)
I for one would like to see some actual conclusive evidence because it sounds like the same old wmd BS to me. I've been there and it all seemed pretty fine so I have serious doubts about such claims and the governments and orgs making these claims have long since lost my trust.
COVID-19 conspiracy (Score:2)
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Even if you doubt that, we have clear evidence of what the CCP did to Hong Kong, and that was horrific.
What's your price? (Score:2)
So, basically, how much is your morality worth? It will be interesting to see who chooses their bottom line over their ethics.
Now everyone jumps on the bandwagon (Score:2)
For over two decades I have gone out of my way to not buy Chinese-made products. Some things, such as gloves or sunglasses, are unavoidable. I check boxes or labels to see where something is made. If it's China, it doesn't get bought.
When this would come up in conversation, people would give me funny looks or say it's not possible and so on.
And yet, here we are, people suddenly concerned with China as it goes about its genocide and repression in general. Maybe had they not been so interested in buying th
They'll do fine (Score:2)
Sweden should (Score:1)
Sweden should ban MTR and all other chinese brands and kick that asshole out from the chinese embassy in stockholm