The Global Business of Professional Trolling (axios.com) 108
Professional political trolling is still a thriving underground industry around the world, despite crackdowns from the biggest tech firms. From a report: Coordinated online disinformation efforts offer governments and political actors a fast, cheap way to get under rivals' skin. They also offer a paycheck to people who are eager for work, typically in developing countries. "It's a more sophisticated means of disinformation to weaken your advisories," said Todd Carroll, CISO and VP of Cyber Operations at CybelAngel. Facebook last week said it had uncovered a massive troll farm in Albania, linked to an Iranian militant group. The operation had the the hallmarks of a typical troll farm, which Facebook defines as "a physical location where a collective of operators share computers and phones to jointly manage a pool of fake accounts as part of an influence operation." "The main thing we saw was strange signals centralized coordination between different fake accounts," said Ben Nimmo, Facebook's global influence operations threat intelligence lead.
Like numerous troll farms uncovered over the past few years, there was one easy giveaway: content from the network targeted Iran, but was posted on social media during normal working hours on Central European Time.
Is it really trolling at that point? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd limit the definition of trolling to be individuals or a small group of people who are intentionally attempting to rile up someone else or some part of the internet more for their own amusement than any type of political or financial gain.
Re:Is it really trolling at that point? (Score:4, Funny)
I take issue with a hobby for the maladjusted being elevated to a career. As if what a troll does and what a state actor does are equivalent in intent or in form.
When the professional trolls unionize and demand moderator pay for any post removed is when we know things have gone too far.
online disinformation effort [Re:Is it really....] (Score:5, Informative)
The headline says "trolling", because headline writers always like a high-impact word over a more accurate word, but when you get past the first line of the actual text, the phrase used is "online disinformation efforts", which is clearer.
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Headlines are always more fun than the actual article. News papers were sold based on their above-the-fold headline, that we've turned this into a point and click game doesn't alter the psychology behind it much.
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PROPAGANDA is the word everyone is searching for. PR=B$ agencies paying trolls to push marketing and propaganda. Been around for decades, nothing new. Disinformation is the new word, pushed by the propagandists already paying trolls to push marketing and propaganda, to target people who are pulling apart the propaganda and marketing and who push the truth instead.
Here let me fix the headline "despite crackdowns from the biggest tech firms" instead "because of the propaganda and censoring efforts of the bi
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They're not equivalent in intent, but they are equivalent in form, which is why "I can't tell if you're trolling" incidents have risen in proportion with the farms.
I think it's fair to call it a troll farm if what it produces is indistinguishable from a troll. Besides, that word was pretty much already genericized to mean any kind of idiotic or worthless comment.
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Yeah, I know you're joking, but you got me to thinking about what sort of person would actually find trolling to be a satisfying career. And how does such a person earn a living before he finds his TRUE avocation?
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what sort of person would actually find trolling to be a satisfying career.
Heh, you tell us! [google.com]
Public masturbation of 1673220 (Score:2)
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There, are you satisfied now? (Score:1)
I believe your malfunction is called "lastworditis". You are compelled to respond. Amusing, and interesting
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Well, you beat me to FP, but I credit it as a good comment and hope you get modded up. I even think your Subject is well considered. In MEPR terms, the focal problem is that there are many dimensions involved in defining what makes a troll. You focused on dimensions of motivation (like for money versus love of conflict), but I'm more concerned with the dimensions of damage (like propagating lies to discourage vaccinations). There are also other motivational dimensions involving true believes, like the dimen
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I think that the key elements of professional trolling are the ability to masquerade as a member of the targeted audience and employ Modelling [wikipedia.org] to bring the audience along with them to the intended world view.
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I call your link good and raise you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] and https://www.goodreads.com/en/b... [goodreads.com] (both focusing on the google and Facebook, though I think Amazon is worse). My initial feeling was that they were looking for configurations among the dimensions of their personality models that revealed pressure points, things like magic buttons or special talking points, that could trigger the desired actions, but now I'm leaning towards a kind of trajectory of action, where they only have to match
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yes and maybe
Yes, trending and conforming are well practiced arts (just for fun, look up Greggery Peccary, a trend-monger [wikipedia.org]), which in my opinion are used to keep us all good consumers (or good bread line standers) because sustaining the unsustainable, constant growth requires us proles to spend more than we make.
Maybe, comes in with the supposition that state-actors are at the heart of it. While I agree that they do benefit by having a complacent, or confused, populace my own country's near collapse to idioc
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Mostly concurrence, but I'll add a few comments.
Never heard of the Greggery Peccary thing before. (Why the double-g? Because peccary has a double-c?) Seems quite elaborate, but it reminds me of some of the stuff in The Hype Machine (and other sources) about professional influencers. Feels like Zappa was projecting into the future again, but perhaps with elements of Darwin's sexual selection, too? Done as a song, too? Does it run on like Alice's Restaurant in the 18-minute version? Never liked Zappa, but i
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Tucker killing people? Did he name agents and collaborators, or was he just groping around trying to get violent groups upset with each other? I have never been able to watch those shows for very long before wanting to throw a shoe at the tv. It is not like I am even angered by challenging ideas, it is just the excessive way they butter the audience up and play the same cards over and over again, more wwe than anything.
Again, you're killing me here, I have never heard of Simplot, but a quick search finds re
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I can't find a link for the quote, but as I recall it from a book about factory food, he said something like "They make 20 million bucks and decide they have enough money, the lazy bums." I suppose the funny part is that he didn't make most of his money from regular work, but rather from real estate speculation. He was just growing the potatoes between sales.
Re: Is it really trolling at that point? (Score:2)
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What is discussed here is not trolling, but, as said, propaganda. And more than propaganda, it is often based on false or purposefully mischaracterized information meant to create a specific, usually false reality. This later changed be part of trolling, if it is clear that is meant to promote discussion and not just mandate truth.
Re:Is it really trolling at that point? (Score:5, Insightful)
I like to think a good troll promotes what might be called divergent thinking.
That might be good if that were what trolls did, but that's not what trolls are.
Trolls are in it for maximizing the conflict. They don't want flames in order to shed light, just heat.
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I mean, I enjoy light and heat.
I'm not choosy.
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I'm frequently accused of trolling just for holding what are mostly fairly mainstream opinions. The internet is hyper polarised to the point where all contrary statements are trolling.
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troll != devil's advocate
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What I see isn't divergent thinking (Score:2)
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I like to think a good troll promotes what might be called divergent thinking.
Isn't that what we call "devil's advocate" though? You can promote divergent thinking without intentionally causing outrage. In general, the definition of a "good troll" was never based on the scale of how good a discussion one brings about or how much introspection one gains from the discussion, but rather how much toxicity one can bring to the thread/discussion/platform. If someone were to tell you "I saw a really good trolling the other day", that person wouldn't be talking about the amount of good discu
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How is it different than historical groups where the aims or goals were the same
Another difference is these people are pretending to be someone they are not. So a better term might be "astro-turfing."
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We should band together and stop Big Troll from destroying our fine American tradition of trolling and taking away our jobs. Besides, who wants some mass-produced, sub-quality hate messaging when you can have a finely crafted, A
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I'm with you. Let's do it.
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>> How is it different than historical groups where the aims or goals were the same, with the only difference being that there was no social media to operate on?
The difference is their ability to blend in with the target population, and pretend to be one of them.
It makes their propaganda MUCH more effective
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It's hard to understate this, and it's not so much that they can pretend to be one of "the People," but that they're now completely indistinguishable.
It's basically asymmetrical warfare. Instead of the army presenting themselves "in uniform" on a propaganda poster or newspaper, they're blending in with the crowd to plant IEDs in comment sections.
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I'd limit it even further as someone who misrepresents themself for the purpose you stated. Basically a type of hypocrite. Can someone who expresses an honest opinion be a troll, even if they do it to entertain themselves through intellectual discourse?
Yes, it is (Score:3)
Trolls are never just in it for the LoLs.
It's True, I'm in the pocket of Big Poor! (Score:2)
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Sorry, but your trolling of rsilvergun is just lame and hardly worth commenting on.
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How is it different than historical groups where the aims or goals were the same, with the only difference being that there was no social media to operate on? I'd limit the definition of trolling to be individuals or a small group of people who are intentionally attempting to rile up someone else or some part of the internet more for their own amusement than any type of political or financial gain.
I think this is a good question. Considering the word trolling in terms of internet usage is new, what are the limits of the word? Personally, I've always thought that trolling is the attempt to rile someone or some group up. I've never thought the world was limited to the internet nor for the purposes of amusement. I would also say that most if not all trolls on the internet partially or wholeheartedly believe in the thing they say to rile the other's up. So from that aspect, I wouldn't say seeing people r
How's the weather in Albania? (Score:1)
n/t
Solution approach: Cost of identity (Score:5, Interesting)
The key is that most people tend to be polite and therefore start out with a certain amount of trust for strangers. Even if the amount of trust is small, it can be multiplied by the number of sock puppets herded by each troll.
Therefore I think the general solution approach has to involve either reducing the default trust setting or increasing the cost of creating fake identities. I favor the first approach using something like MEPR (Mutlidimensional Earned Public Reputation), but the second approach with some sort of registration fee is probably easier. Right now sock puppets are like spam email. The marginal cost of another million is close to zero.
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Re: Solution approach: Cost of identity (Score:3)
In other news, Black Mirror was supposed to be a thought-provoking work of dystopian fiction, not a goddamned business plan.
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I think this is your reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
But I have never seen it. I'm trying to think of relevant books, but mostly coming up dry. Most insightful might be Nothing is True and Everything is Possible and This Is Not Propaganda by Peter Pomerantsev. Don't think he said anything about the Chinese 50-centers, however. I actually think the Chinese approach is much more sophisticated.
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If you want a recent novel with internet trolling as a theme (along with so much more), I would suggest Neal Stephenson's, Fall; or, Dodge in Hell [wikipedia.org]
It is a timely work, and probably cost Neal some readership, but worth the effort to read it. His automated solution to trolling reminds me of the Simian Army AWS tool.
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I read it, but didn't like it as much as some of his other books. I suspect he's feeling his own mortality.
Only recently read The Diamond Age and found it much more provocative, even though he left a lot of loose ends. If he doesn't care about the loose ends, then I think the books could be improved by making them tighter and somewhat shorter. But of course these days no acquisitions editor is going to turn down any golden words from a proven money maker.
What do you think about Seveneaves and Snow Cras
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Snow Crash was the first Stephenson novel that I read and I really enjoyed it, Seveneves I found to be more like Fall, which is to say, two stories in one and a lot of potential branching
I found Cryptonomicon fascinating because I was working at a datacenter as a unix admin at the time, and who doesn't like a hero that does the same work?
System of the World, I think, is his most realized story with only a few loose ends, and Diamond Age makes me cry, bless that Mouse Army to pieces.
I found Fall less enjoyab
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Thanks for the tip on Robert Anton Wilson. I'll see if I can find any of his stuff around here. Closest I have read is Mysterium by a Robert Charles Wilson. [Nothing in English except for a copy of The Illuminatus! Trilogy with Robert Shea (in the 1984 combined edition), which doesn't seem too interesting. Sounds like it's more on the fantasy side.]
I forgot about Reamde but I've read the rest of them except for the two I asked about.
Return recommendation? Or have you already discovered Iain M Banks? S
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Mr Banks name comes up a lot, I should put the time into checking it out. The Iluminatus! Trilogy is a lot of fun, at least at 16 when I read it the first time, I read it a decade later and saw a lot more in it than I had realized the first time. RAW produced a lot of deeper work since then, one that I enjoyed was Schrödinger's Cat and I have Prometheus Rising sitting nearby waiting to get read. Expect meta-messages and deeper insights on subsequent readings. There is some really good info on belief sy
Now we're just talking about books... (Score:2)
Okay, I think you talked me into it, even though it's an oldie and a lot of pages, too. I wish my language skills were up to reading him in translations, since those are fairly plentiful. (I refuse to shop with Amazon.)
I'll note that Banks writes quasi-optimistic SF with the middle initial M. His other stuff is indescribable, but often quite unpleasant. There's plenty of unpleasantness mixed into his SF, too, but I think it's more justified there.
I feel like I should have tipped a hit to Gibson or Sterling,
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c/tipped a hit/tipped a hat/
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I don't see it working because there is always the 'cash in incentive' Lets imagine I am say 60, I have spent years of my career building a good reputation.
Some shyster shows up and offers to pay me a fee hundred thou to astroturf and spread disinformation for them.
My thoughts would be gee, I am probably as far as I am going in my career at this point, no risk of losing more opportunities really, chances of this getting my canned outright are small. Why not take the money and make my retirement that but bet
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On that threat, I think the latest data should have the highest weight. Yes, someone could build up a strong and valuable reputation, but the latest negative actions linked to that reputation will quickly negate the value. Actually, we see a lot of that in the news when careers crash. (However, some crooks will always be looking for ways to grab the money and run away...)
An obvious example comes to mind... I used to think Bill Cosby was a very funny fellow. These days, not so much. Can't even enjoy memories
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That kind of thing has already happened with trusted components like browser plugins [vice.com] or node.js modules.
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There are a lot of tags for MEPR, but I haven't been able to find anything that is definitive. Your example is an interesting one. I've had personal interactions with him. I wouldn't rate him highly negative on the "polite" dimension, but rather I think he is negative on the "empathic" dimension. Nor do I think he actually likes controversy, but rather he is not averse to conflict. Lack of sensitivity, but not quite the same thing as a lack of empathy? Not sure what dimensions would measure "thought provoki
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is it in use anywhere?
China [wikipedia.org]
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Kinda like what CCP uses?
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Not at all, but you don't care do you?
I smell another sock puppet.
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NAK and I'm sure you're a racist liar, too. So much for your reputation. I encourage you to neither read nor reply to my comments and I'll try to reciprocate, though I'd honestly prefer to try to forget that such people exist.
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NAK and I'm sure you're a racist liar, too. So much for your reputation.
See? This is how his *MEPR*, social credit system would work. A build up of ad hominems, and there ya go, can't ride the subway
Public masturbation of 1673220 (Score:2)
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Butt out! I was talking to the camera! (Score:1)
How rude!
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Your bot discourages no one (Score:1)
Is it a "professional"? Or a rank amateur?
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You are a bot (Score:1)
with a glitch
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Mutlidimensional Earned Public Reputation
Chinese Social Credit system. Reputation based on official gossip is a terrible thing. Let's not let that happen here.
A quote worth repeating:
Reputation is an idle and most false imposition; oft got without merit, and lost without deserving.
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That's m'boy! (Score:1)
On command
The only way you know how to respond to a challenge
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Feel good connections. (Score:2)
This will be so much easier once we wirelessly wire brains to computers. [slashdot.org]
Are you GAY? (Score:1)
Are you GAY???
Are you ALBANIAN???
Are you a GAY ALBANIAN???
The Gay Albanian Association of Albania would like to hear from you!!
To apply, you must get a first post on Twitter with an incoherent rant about Iran.
Wag the Dog (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyone (competently) following technology knows that this has been going on for a LONG time, and that the primary actors were Israel followed by the U.S.
It's a pity that laws preventing domestic propaganda operations have lapsed in the aftermath of 9/11 and we're seeing both the mainstream media and social media being used as tools to sway the opinions of uninformed idiots with greater confidence in their ability than actual ability into parroting bullshit narratives and giving credence to patent bullshit.
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Don't forget UK. UK tabloids are on another level, UK newspapers have been for a long time.
And apropos that, Ben Nimmo works for the FP/MIL think tank Atlantic Council, pretty much a civilian arm of NATO. He also used to work for the Institute for Statecraft in the UK, a group formed by "concerned senior intelligence officials". It pretended to be a charity, but was pretty obviously a front for the British secret services (they were funded by the foreign office) - and they landed in some moderately hot wate
Also Russia (Score:5, Insightful)
This is nothing new. What *is* new is that for years our government has done fuck all to combat it. Either thanks to general obstructionism from a certain political party or that party actively benefiting from the paid trolls.
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How would such a law be enforced? Should another bureaucracy be created, Like the Department of Trolls or Troll Force? What do you do when trolls are identified outside of their jurisdiction? Military action, over trolling?
Not every problem can be solved by "There should be a law!" Sometimes there is no solution other than awareness. Be aware that much of the stuff you see online is bullshit being posted with an agenda. Slashdot is one of the worst offenders by the way.
Weaken your advisories? (Score:2)
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Almost all the trigger words and an emotional appeal. Well done. I think some points have to be deducted because you didn’t mention gender but stellar effort overall.
The Russian troll farm is well known (Score:5, Informative)
This particular troll farm is instrumental in continuing to pump out misinformation and outright lies about Russia's invasion of Ukraine and its occupation of Crimea. Even now, with all the Russian military build up on Ukraine's borders, they keep claiming this is only an "exercise" and nothing to worry about. They also keep lying about "defending" Russian speakers in Ukraine, but protecting them from what is never stated since no one's under attack, being harassed or even threatened by Ukrainian authories since these are Ukrainian citizens. Of course this is the same excuse Russia used the first time and lost roughly 4,000 troops (so far) in the process.
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Obviously the IRA is just a front and training camp at this time. The serious stuff has to be hidden elsewhere.
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This is a troll, right?
"despite crackdowns" (Score:2)