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Transportation AI

Two Dead After Fiery Tesla Crash (click2houston.com) 340

Texas TV station KPRC 2 reports that two men are dead after a Tesla "crashed into a tree and no one was driving the vehicle, officials say."

Long-time Slashdot readers AmiMoJo and McGruber both submitted the story: There was a person in the passenger seat of the front of the car and in the rear passenger seat of the car. Harris County Precinct 4 Constable Mark Herman said authorities believe no one else was in the car and that it burst into flames immediately. He said it he believes it wasn't being driven by a human.

Harris County Constable Precinct 4 deputies said the vehicle was traveling at a high speed when it failed to negotiate a cul-de-sac turn, ran off the road and hit the tree.

KPRC 2 reporter Deven Clarke spoke to one man's brother-in-law who said he was taking the car out for a spin with his best friend, so there were just two in the vehicle. The owner, he said, backed out of the driveway, and then may have hopped in the back seat only to crash a few hundred yards down the road...

Authorities said they used 32,000 gallons of water to extinguish the flames because the vehicle's batteries kept reigniting. At one point, Herman said, deputies had to call Tesla to ask them how to put out the fire in the battery.

UPDATE (2/11/2023): America's National Transportation Safety Board concluded "the driver was seated in the driver's seat at the time of the crash and moved into the rear seat postcrash," according to the Associated Press. They blame the crash on excessive speed and lack of control — the driver's blood-alcohol level was almost twice the legal limit, and "two over-the-counter sedating antihistamine medications also were found in the driver's blood."
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Two Dead After Fiery Tesla Crash

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  • Eh (Score:4, Funny)

    by DontBeAMoran ( 4843879 ) on Sunday April 18, 2021 @02:49PM (#61287082)

    All I can read is "Here are two new submissions for the Darwin Awards".

  • by RightwingNutjob ( 1302813 ) on Sunday April 18, 2021 @02:49PM (#61287084)

    Otherwise known as explosives, rocket fuel, and most kinds of batteries.

    Authorities said they used 32,000 gallons of water to extinguish the flames because the vehicle's batteries kept reigniting. At one point, Herman said, deputies had to call Tesla to ask them how to put out the fire in the battery.

    Where I used to work, they had a machine shop that used to work with magnesium, before my time. Firefighters had a rule if they got a call: don't go in.

    Another place I used to hang around during college was a robotics research lab. They had a bunch of 1st or 2nd gen l
    Li-Poly batteries, in pouch form, to run their little robots. I was told to never use a any of the fire extinguishers hanging on the wall if there was a battery fire. I don't remember the details, but either those particular extinguishers would catalyze the reaction and make the fire worse or they would boil and explode and just spread the fire around to more flammable stuff (maybe including your clothes). Supposedly there was a bucket of sand in case of emergency somewhere to isolate the fire and just let it fizzle out, but I never saw it and it may have been a hypothetical bucket of sand meant to calm nerves rather than a real bucket of sand to use in case of emergency.

    Batteries aren't a joke.

    • hidden very well.

    • Maybe that'll be Musk's next great invention. Self-extinguishing batteries.

      • by RightwingNutjob ( 1302813 ) on Sunday April 18, 2021 @03:22PM (#61287202)

        They exist. They trade safety for energy-to-weight and energy-to-volume density.

        People act like it's evil bogeyman keeping the masses from using electric cars. It's not. It's technology limitations, some of them surmountable given enough money today, but some of them because of hard physics-based theoretical limits.

        Having to carry your own oxidizer as opposed to sucking it out of the air is one of those physics-based limits. A system that carries its own oxidizer will always weigh more than one that only needs to carry its own fuel. And it will almost certainly take up more space too. No amount of woke pseudoscience will magic that away.

        • One can always use iron as a fuel source. [phys.org] Even breweries [gizmodo.com] are using it.

        • by Rei ( 128717 ) on Sunday April 18, 2021 @04:28PM (#61287402) Homepage

          Again: li-ion batteries do not contain oxidizers. The energy storage mechanism is not a fuel-oxidizer reaction. That would be a fuel cell, not a battery. The energy storage mechanism is the voltage potential difference between a lithium ion intercalated into graphite vs. a lithium ion intercalated into a mixed metal oxide.

          Fire in a li-ion battery depends on the type. In any system where energy is stored, there is the potential for creating heat. In a battery, this can be from short-circuiting the anode and cathode, for example. So now you have a hot li-ion battery - the peak temperature depending on the nature of the short and the nature of the cell. Most electrolytes are flammable past an autoignition temperature. At above a given temperature, you can also start altering / reacting your anode and cathode. In high-nickel cells in particular, at high temperatures they can start to evolve free oxygen. The various other metals mixed with them such as cobalt, alumium, and manganese reduce the tendency to evolve free oxygen at high temperatures, but there always is some potential at some temperature.

          EV fires are rare. Tesla fires average one per every 205 million miles, vs. 1 per every 19 million miles on average for vehicles in the US - and that's inclusive of earlier, more primitive designs, as well as being inclusive of things that can apply to any vehicle, such as burning due to arson or a house fire. The difference is that ICE fires do not make national news.

      • "Self-extinguishing batteries" - Done already. LiFePo batteries do not burn.
      • Self-extinguishing batteries.

        All that's left is to start making the entire plane out of the same materials as the black box.

    • Considering one of those battery pack jump starters are capable of releasing 5V at 2A as a USB charger, or 12v at 800A to jumpstart a truck, it makes sense that they could release a their stored energy very quickly as heat when uncontrolled. And "release stored energy very quickly as heat" comes within the range of definitions of "explosion" -- which is very deceptive when you're looking at a colorful plastic rectangle with rounded corners, in a convenient faux-leather carrying case.
    • by sphealey ( 2855 ) on Sunday April 18, 2021 @03:20PM (#61287194)

      https://www.tesla.com/firstres... [tesla.com]

      That was hard to find. Although admittedly the current practice of Tesla owners of deleting or removing all badging could make it a bit difficult to determine which model was on fire.

      Around here our fire departments train with various EV dealerships who send trainers and dummy vehicles around. Mostly GM and Nissan because, ya know, Tesla doesn't have dealerships, but the principles are the same for all EVs with capacity higher than a Volt.

      • ...the principles are the same for all EVs with capacity higher than a Volt.

        I'm pretty sure all EVs run at higher than one volt. [instantrimshot.com]

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Wow, that page is bad. So first the firefighter has to figure out not just which model it is, but which model year too. For the S there is a choice of:

        Emergency Response Guide - 2016+
        Emergency Response Guide â" Model S Dual Motor â" 2014/2015
        Emergency Response Guide â" 2014
        Emergency Response Guide â" 2012/2013

        The 2016+ one is a 31 page PDF file. The firefighting section is on page 22. Feel like that should be right at the top, but anyway... It says use water. Up to 3,000 gallons may be r

    • When in doubt, use a powder extinguisher. Anyhoo, then best way to put out an electric car fire, would be with a dump truck of sand, but disposing of the system would still be unresolved, since the moment the sand is shoveled away, it can reignite.
      • The recommendation is to use water. Lots and lots of water.

        The fire hazard from Li-ion batteries is not the lithium, but the electrolyte. Heat - either from external fire or internal short - causes the electrolyte to turn into a vapor, which causes cells to vent that hot, flammable vapor. That's what burns. Use lots of water to keep the batteries cool, which in turn keeps the electrolyte a liquid and inside the cells where it can't burn.

        Putting sand on it might be the worst thing you can do, because that wi

    • Neither is gasoline you dumb shit.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Rei ( 128717 )

      Li-ion batteries do not contain oxidizers. The anode is mixed-metal oxides (on higher-energy / nickel-based cells) or iron phosphate (lower energy density cells). The cathode is graphite with some silicon. The electrolyte is mostly simple hydrocarbon carbonates with dissolved lithium salts. Lithium ions (not metal) are intercalated in a mixture of the cathode and anode - discharged = cathode, charged = anode.

      Where I used to work, they had a machine shop that used to work with magnesium

      You sound like you th

  • by klipclop ( 6724090 ) on Sunday April 18, 2021 @02:50PM (#61287086)
    I get really angry when I read articles about people still doing these kind of extremely reckless and stupid things. It's must be by extreme chance that they didn't crash into another car full of people or house. Car manufacturers should also have a kill switch for these stupid cruise control gimmicks when there isn't anyone in the seat too.
    • by green1 ( 322787 ) on Sunday April 18, 2021 @02:57PM (#61287102)

      Maybe they should also stop calling it "full self driving" on the sales sheet if the car can't drive itself...

      • by rattaroaz ( 1491445 ) on Sunday April 18, 2021 @03:08PM (#61287150)
        If you are implying that these guys would not have driven at high speeds and crashed into a tree if the name of the system was simply called any other name you could possible think of, then I simply disagree.
        • Organ donor would have conveyed what the system was for.

        • Good point. Maybe it's just better to run beta tests on test courses.
        • by green1 ( 322787 ) on Sunday April 18, 2021 @03:23PM (#61287206)

          I was one of the adamant supporters of the term "autopilot" when so many called that wording dangerous. I believed, and still do, that autopilot correctly conveyed what the system was capable of. Many people however blamed Tesla in previous crashed because they thought autopilot made it sound like self driving when it wasn't.

          Yet now that Tesla is actually calling it "full self driving", all those criticisms seem to have vanished, despite the fact that Tesla had not released a vehicle capable of driving itself, and crucially, Tesla have even admitted that the current generation of vehicles on the road will NEVER be capable of driving themselves without an attentive human driver behind the wheel.

          Tesla's marketing department owns these deaths. If the people in the car didn't think it could drive itself, they never would have been in a moving vehicle with nobody at the wheel.

          • Again, your words imply, without actually stating, that people would not perform stupid stunts if they changed the name. To me, that is silly to an extreme degree. That message also implies that people are so dumb that they don't need to try it out, feel out where it works and where it doesn't, and they just blindly trust the product due to the name. That violates all empirical evidence for me. These accidents are people just not paying attention, because people don't pay attention. People without any
          • by Tom ( 822 )

            Yet there are plenty of videos of cars from other manufacturers where people turn on the autopilot (whatever it's called in those brands) and then hop into the back seat.

            So yes, Tesla is making it sound like more than it is - but morons aren't brand-specific.

        • by quantaman ( 517394 ) on Sunday April 18, 2021 @03:45PM (#61287260)

          If you are implying that these guys would not have driven at high speeds and crashed into a tree if the name of the system was simply called any other name you could possible think of, then I simply disagree.

          Quite possibly.

          Calling it "full self driving" implies that Tesla thinks it's good enough to take over as a human and it's just the pesky regulators holding it back, and if you think I'm exaggerating Tesla even claims it's safer [futurism.com].

          So yeah, I think there's people who will trust the autopilot to drive unsupervised when they wouldn't trust advanced cruise control to do the same.

  • We need warning (Score:4, Interesting)

    by speedlaw ( 878924 ) on Sunday April 18, 2021 @02:57PM (#61287104) Homepage
    Cars on self drive should have a common light color and bulb, so the rest of us know no one is home...hit FSD or whatever it is, a blue or green light on the roof pulses slowly....
    • I really like that idea. Have a colored light mandated for front and rear of vehicles that have any self-driving features.

      I wish there were requirements that self-driving abilities had to network with nearby cars, send informative signals to other vehicles via IR or something (I don't know how), etc. Seems like a lot of missed opportunities.

    • Yeah but the tree can't exactly get out of the way when it sees the car coming.

  • 2 people nominated for the Darwin Awards
    the fire brigade there obviously needs more training...

  • Tesla driver assistance [teslarati.com] could be 10 times safer than humans, but people doing reckless things like this aided and abetted by Tesla using terms like "full self driving" makes it more difficult to introduce safer driver assist technologies.
  • For reference ... (Score:5, Informative)

    by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ) on Sunday April 18, 2021 @03:13PM (#61287166)

    Authorities said they used 32,000 gallons of water to extinguish the flames because the vehicle's batteries kept reigniting.

    My 20'x40' swimming pool holds about 40,000 gallons.

    • Yeah, yeah, we get it - you have a big-ass swimming pool.

      • Yeah, yeah, we get it - you have a big-ass swimming pool.

        It's a huge pain in the ass, and expensive if you buy good chemicals and run the pump 24/7 during the season. I actually haven't opened it in a few years.

        • If you haven't used it in years it means your kids are all grown up or you're not as young as you used to be.
          Remove the huge pain in the ass and install an outdoor jacuzzi.

  • They put water on an electrical fire?

    Maybe it has some value removing heat from the system and limiting the chance of nearby things catching fire. But for that I'd be more inclined to soak the nearby things.

    • deputies had to call Tesla to ask them how to put out the fire in the battery

      I've done IT work in my local firehalls. They all have small libraries of books/manuals about firefighting, including ones specifically dealing with electric cars. I'd expect most firefighters to have a least some training on this, as BEVs are not really new or uncommon anymore.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      This is the recommended approach by Tesla officially [1].

      The reason is stated in other comments, i.e. battery packs you get both oxidizer and fuel in one pack. Most common ways to extinguish the fire are to separate those two, which apparently does not work when they are already together. Thus, the best way to do this is to remove heat from the equation. and the most reliable way is to add water and wait.

      Sometimes 'common sense' does not really work, and it's funny to see that random ppl on /. belie
    • Removing heat is all that water does for any fire. it's not magic.

    • by subreality ( 157447 ) on Sunday April 18, 2021 @05:15PM (#61287558)

      From the Model S Emergency Response Sheet:

      "USE WATER TO FIGHT A HIGH VOLTAGE BATTERY FIRE. If the battery catches fire, is exposed to high heat, or is generating heat or gases, use large amounts of water to cool the battery. It can take approximately 3,000gallons (11356 liters) of water (applied directly to the battery); establish sufficient water supply."

      https://www.tesla.com/sites/de... [tesla.com]

      Li-ion fires are due to thermal runaway. After a crash, some cell separators are likely damaged and they're already shorting internally. The extra current path through the water is relatively minor. The cooling capacity of water is far more significant. The idea is to get the separators to stop melting, at which point the reaction will stop.

      The other things firefighters have on hand won't work. Chemical fire extinguishers try to block oxygen from the air, but li-ion fires don't need air. AFFF foam works great for gasoline, but it still conducts electricity, so it has no advantage here. Plain water is better and more plentiful.

  • Hm. (Score:4, Funny)

    by fluffernutter ( 1411889 ) on Sunday April 18, 2021 @03:16PM (#61287182)
    I wonder what autopilot learned from this adventure?
    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Probably nothing. Any data was likely destroyed in the fire, and the cars themselves don't learn. All they can do is sent telemetry back to Tesla when they notice that something went wrong.

  • Fire fighters (Score:2, Informative)

    by peterww ( 6558522 )

    "At one point, Herman said, deputies had to call Tesla to ask them how to put out the fire in the battery."

    If you're wondering "Why didn't Tesla inform fire departments how to put out fires?", me too.

    Tesla has been around since 2003. After 18 years, they should have been able to communicate how to put out fires at least through the U.S. Fire Administration, and probably through other means as well.

    There are about 30,000 fire departments in the USA. 92% of them are registered with the National Fire Departmen

    • At least the Germans will be ready when BEVs become a thing.

      https://publikationen.dguv.de/... [publikationen.dguv.de]
    • The high voltage wires in an electric car are orange for a reason. The physical disconnect location is also registered for every vehicle model. I was under the impression that firefighters and similar first responders* are advised to treat an electric vehicle differently. Sounds like a derp derp moment.

      *Why is chrome starting to miss correct spelling for so many words lately, responder is right and it keeps getting the red underline.
  • Location (Score:5, Interesting)

    by sound+vision ( 884283 ) on Sunday April 18, 2021 @04:02PM (#61287330) Journal

    This is where it happened. [goo.gl] (Fun fact, I used to live a few miles from there, and this is exactly the kind of thing I'd expect to see there.)

    The cul-de-sacs are arranged a bit oddly. Rarely do you see them with a densely vegetated island in the middle, so the AI might not have been trained much on this scenario. There's also a long McMansion driveway coming off it at kinda the right position and angle that you'd see at a roundabout - also not a common traffic device in the US. Possibly the computer ID'd it as a roundabout.

  • by joe_frisch ( 1366229 ) on Sunday April 18, 2021 @06:44PM (#61287808)
    Its very odd that there was no one in the driver's seat. It would take a lot of effort to do that. The car was very heavily damaged by fire and impact. I wonder if its possible someone was driving but their remains were not immediately identifiable.

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